Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Alcohol and Society
Options
Replies
-
As for nothing good coming from alcohol, research is increasingly showing that sensible use of wine and beer correlates with notable health benefits--when limited to one or two drinks a day. My mother, a staunch Methodist, also used to claim that nothing good ever came from the alcohol trade, but after marrying a Lutheran, I have since corrupted my tee-totaling parents, and they now maintain a modest selection of wines and ciders.
On the contrary. Research now points out that even small amounts of alcohol immediately raise cancer risks, and have no discernible favorable influence on health. So there's that excuse gone.
I read a lot of justification in this thread. Interesting.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/8242377 -
As for nothing good coming from alcohol, research is increasingly showing that sensible use of wine and beer correlates with notable health benefits--when limited to one or two drinks a day. My mother, a staunch Methodist, also used to claim that nothing good ever came from the alcohol trade, but after marrying a Lutheran, I have since corrupted my tee-totaling parents, and they now maintain a modest selection of wines and ciders.
On the contrary. Research now points out that even small amounts of alcohol immediately raise cancer risks, and have no discernible favorable influence on health. So there's that excuse gone.
I read a lot of justification in this thread. Interesting.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/824237
Well, naturally it causes cancer--all of life's pleasures cause cancer, including red wine, cheese, steak, chocolate, cookies, baguettes, jam, puppies, rainbows, and magical rainbow puppy unicorns.
As your article says, "no absolutely safe level of alcohol consumption can be promoted"; presumably it's hedging because we lack the research and knowledge about the exact mechanics of cancer and how any given substance plays into it, while sorting out the causative vs. correlative impacts in any given study.
Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy alcohol consumption:
"Alcohol is a double-edged sword.[12] Two decades ago, studies that explored the "French paradox" began to appear in the medical literature and were also picked up as news by the mainstream media. Light to moderate alcohol consumption appeared to have a cardioprotective effect. According to observational studies, the French, who had the highest alcohol intake (particularly of wine), also had the lowest incidence of cardiovascular disease.[13]
John Q. Public, who may have viewed these results as a "get out of jail free" card, may also have ignored the "small print" that cautioned against alcohol consumption as a measure to prevent cardiovascular disease.[14,15] The evidence showing lower risks for diabetes mellitus, stroke, heart failure, and total mortality stand in stark contrast to the harms associated with excessive alcohol consumption.[13]
Another problem with the notion of alcohol's protective effect on cardiovascular disease is that this effect depends on a consistent light to moderate drinking pattern, without episodic heavy or "binge" drinking. The ideal pattern seems to be daily low- to moderate-dose alcohol intake (preferably red wine) before or during the evening meal, which is associated with the strongest reduction in adverse cardiovascular outcomes. However, more is not better; in fact, more is dramatically worse. Heavy alcohol use causes hypertension, atrial fibrillation, ischemic and hemorrhagic stroke, and nonischemic dilated cardiomyopathy.[13]"
It's a drug, and you have to be intelligent about it. For the general knowledge of the readers of this thread (and anyone who doesn't have a Medscape login) it is worth reiterating their table of closing recommendations, as it is certainly wise advice:
"Personal health behaviors:
Monitor your alcohol intake ("know your number"). This is similar to knowing your blood pressure, cholesterol level, or calorie intake.
Limit consumption to 20 g daily for men and 15 g daily for women (1.5 drinks for men and 1 drink for women, by US standards).
Less is more: Lower alcohol consumption leads to greater health and longevity.
Take a day off. Not drinking for 1-2 days each week can help the liver recover from the effects of alcohol and reduce the risk for liver complications."7 -
As for nothing good coming from alcohol, research is increasingly showing that sensible use of wine and beer correlates with notable health benefits--when limited to one or two drinks a day. My mother, a staunch Methodist, also used to claim that nothing good ever came from the alcohol trade, but after marrying a Lutheran, I have since corrupted my tee-totaling parents, and they now maintain a modest selection of wines and ciders.
On the contrary. Research now points out that even small amounts of alcohol immediately raise cancer risks, and have no discernible favorable influence on health. So there's that excuse gone.
I read a lot of justification in this thread. Interesting.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/824237
Unless you exercise
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/07/health/exercise-alcohol-and-death-risk/6 -
As with anything else it can be abused. People have to take care of themselves. We have the government far to involved in things in my opinion. Two main differences in alcohol and tobacco in my opinion. One light drinking a few a week vs. a few cigarettes does vastly different damage to the human body. Second a person standing next to me drinking a glass of wine has no impact on me vs. a person standing next to me smoking. That said I think we have regulated smoking enough and again people have to take care of themselves.1
-
I drink every week but not every day, usually 2 drinks, times 2 days, so 4 a week total. Sometimes only one day a week, it depends. My ex was a terrible drunk, not in the sense of overusing, he wasn't ever a daily drinker, but it changed him from laid back stoner dude to evil abusive trailer park dad, he could not handle drink at all. His response to alcohol was to become violent, and for a long time he didn't see it, thought that everyone around him was oppressing him somehow. He no longer drinks, at all.
I think that people have always wanted mind altering substances, and there just aren't a lot of legal ones around. The problem is that safe stuff gets prohibited, and the big industry behind alcohol can push to keep it legal, and also alcoholic drinks are closer to "food" than most drugs are, they are culinary - I can make a delightful pitcher of cocktails that will taste amazing and much better than a non-alcoholic version of the same thing, and beer tastes how it does because of the fermentation, that also causes the alcohol, same with wine, if you like those tastes they kind of just come with the alcohol.
I don't think it's wrong to want to get high or drunk sometimes, but think more and safer substances should be legal for that, and that there should be some sort of safe way to experience it, without risking the safety of other people. Not sure why it is so squashed down like it's evil.
Fiance has a glass (probably 2 shots, but served as one drink) of bourbon on ice every night, and coffee every morning first thing. Works out, sleeps well, it doesn't seem to mess him up at all.
Alcoholic beverages have been around for thousands of years, that's a long record of consumption by humans.1 -
suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.2 -
suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
You could also replace it with "Oreos" or "carrots" or heaven forbid, "coffee". @jmbmilholland was pointing out that your blanket statement of "it has no discernible favorable influence on health" is not what the review article is saying. There is a a favourable influence in regards to one part of your health, but unfortunately the risks that it poses to other areas of your body outweigh the one positive outcome they can see.
Personally, I need no justification to drink, and the assumption that people are making excuses / providing justification for drinking alcohol on this thread seems very narrow minded. I drink alcohol in moderation because I enjoy the flavour, the way it complements my food, and the enjoyment of having a beer with my hubby when I get home from work on a hot day or a glass of wine on Friday with my co-workers; I could also say the same thing about coffee or a cupcake (and alternate them quite frequently). I take no joy in binge drinking or getting beyond tipsy, and I won't drink something I don't like 'just because it's there'.
Out of all the things that can kill me in this world, alcohol is the least of my worries; I mean, I'm Australian. There's a good chance I could die from being bitten by a redback or whitetailed spider when I go to the toilet, and I'm more worried about melanoma from forgetting to 'slip slop slap' or lung cancer from my smoking years than I am about alcohol-induced cancer.
12 -
suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
If you replaced it with heroin it would make no sense because there is little similarity between alcohol and heroin.
What do you mean by "justification"? Justification for what exactly?9 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
If you replaced it with heroin it would make no sense because there is little similarity between alcohol and heroin.
What do you mean by "justification"? Justification for what exactly?
I *do* believe he's trying to insinuate I'm covering up my alcoholism. Basically, since I split an Alpha King with my husband last week, and visited several breweries in Michigan last month (Storm Cloud, Jolly Pumpkin, North Peak, and Left Foot Charlie*, all very fabulous), it means that every word I have written about the cultural importance of alcohol is a dubious attempt to cover up my shameful drug habit, thus, I am a bad person, and people of good moral character should not listen to me. Insinuation is such a fine, subtle, creepy, slithering, greasy little tactic. I wish I could make better use of it to cast aspersions on the honor and character of others if they are making an argument I don't like, or use my sources against me, but alas, I find I am a little too hamfisted for such intricacies.
I'll just go stand myself in the corner with Jesus, Tolkein, Franklin and Luther, because I'm getting people addicted to heroin or...something.
*Technically a winery, and I bought a couple of cases of really outstanding cider. THE SHAME.20 -
xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....3 -
Personally I have only one justification for drinking alcohol. I like it.
I like the taste and I like the buzz. Anyone that has a problem with that can go suck an egg.20 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Personally I have only one justification for drinking alcohol. I like it.
I like the taste and I like the buzz. Anyone that has a problem with that can go suck an egg.
+13 -
I drink every day and enjoy it, it relieves stress. The good/bad for you bit I ignore. Studies always show something is good or bad depending on who "buys" it. Coffee, eggs, sugar, wine, beer, bacon and yes cigarettes have been on both sides of the good/bad argument. I leave you with my favorite quote.
"I feel sorry for a man that doesn't drink. When he gets up in the morning that's the best he's going to feel all day"
Frank Sinatra4 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
Maybe they are teetotalers that make a big deal out of it. I actually enjoy that there is alcohol in our social environment because people are relaxing and having fun. I would even enjoy a drink or two if I could. But, it makes me sick for months (I can't drink for medical reasons). My husband just doesn't drink. He just doesn't want to. But, no one knows we don't drink. They don't notice and can't tell either way. I'm the life of the party. Dancing when everyone else is sitting. I dance first and then get others to join. I'm very joyful. Not miserable at all. I think it depends on the person. Some drinkers are joyful, some miserable. Some teetotalers are joyful, some miserable. As long as we all respect each other's choices, we are happy. It's the adult thing to do. For me, I love dancing and sexuality. That's how I have fun.8 -
BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
Maybe they are teetotalers that make a big deal out of it. I actually enjoy that there is alcohol in our social environment because people are relaxing and having fun. I would even enjoy a drink or two if I could. But, it makes me sick for months (I can't drink for medical reasons). My husband just doesn't drink. He just doesn't want to. But, no one knows we don't drink. They don't notice and can't tell either way. I'm the life of the party. Dancing when everyone else is sitting. I dance first and then get others to join. I'm very joyful. Not miserable at all. I think it depends on the person. Some drinkers are joyful, some miserable. Some teetotalers are joyful, some miserable. As long as we all respect each other's choices, we are happy. It's the adult thing to do. For me, I love dancing and sexuality. That's how I have fun.
Note I said the most miserable people ''I' know are all teetotallers so I'm not sure why you had to write this self-congratulatory essay.
But I love dancing and having sex too. I hate cake and ice cream. But again I'm not sure what that's got to do with a judgey thread about booze.
I need a drink.3 -
BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
Maybe they are teetotalers that make a big deal out of it. I actually enjoy that there is alcohol in our social environment because people are relaxing and having fun. I would even enjoy a drink or two if I could. But, it makes me sick for months (I can't drink for medical reasons). My husband just doesn't drink. He just doesn't want to. But, no one knows we don't drink. They don't notice and can't tell either way. I'm the life of the party. Dancing when everyone else is sitting. I dance first and then get others to join. I'm very joyful. Not miserable at all. I think it depends on the person. Some drinkers are joyful, some miserable. Some teetotalers are joyful, some miserable. As long as we all respect each other's choices, we are happy. It's the adult thing to do. For me, I love dancing and sexuality. That's how I have fun.
Yeah, I know a lot of teetotalers that are marvelous fun to be around (my mother, who also loves to dance, being one). And some that are not. Same with drinkers. Some are great fun, some are not. Some are more fun before they drink and some more fun after.3 -
People use drugs because they like drugs. Despite the suppressing efforts of governments, religions, and public health officials, this behavior will likely continue for the entire future of humanity.4
-
suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
2 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
Maybe they are teetotalers that make a big deal out of it. I actually enjoy that there is alcohol in our social environment because people are relaxing and having fun. I would even enjoy a drink or two if I could. But, it makes me sick for months (I can't drink for medical reasons). My husband just doesn't drink. He just doesn't want to. But, no one knows we don't drink. They don't notice and can't tell either way. I'm the life of the party. Dancing when everyone else is sitting. I dance first and then get others to join. I'm very joyful. Not miserable at all. I think it depends on the person. Some drinkers are joyful, some miserable. Some teetotalers are joyful, some miserable. As long as we all respect each other's choices, we are happy. It's the adult thing to do. For me, I love dancing and sexuality. That's how I have fun.
Note I said the most miserable people ''I' know are all teetotallers so I'm not sure why you had to write this self-congratulatory essay.
But I love dancing and having sex too. I hate cake and ice cream. But again I'm not sure what that's got to do with a judgey thread about booze.
I need a drink.
Sorry. I didn't intend it as self congratulatory (I specified it was because of a medical issue). Just talking about having fun and how it doesn't matter either way (talking about not judging). I'm glad you love those things too! I thought it related because I was talking about the things that happen at social events which include alcohol, and saying I like that alcohol is there. And things which are fun, relaxing, release inhibition (alcohol being one, but there are others too). But, I could have left that last part out (it probably was over explaining). It's definitely not my intention to start an argument (but tone doesn't come across online). There are plenty of reasons why people can judge me. Plenty of things to be judgy about. I just think it's funner to respect differences and not judge it. I don't think we disagree there.4 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
/agree
...and there's a vast difference in people who don't drink and those who don't think anyone should drink.
Unfortunately there are a lot of do-gooders out there projecting their internal flaws onto the rest of the population and effing up personal liberties.
4
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.4K Getting Started
- 259.6K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 387 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.2K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 913 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions