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I don't support the fat acceptance/plus size movement.
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onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »Except that fat people can be healthy.
Any examples of these wondrous healthy fat people? Most of my family are fat and they have all manner of issues - alcoholism, mental health issues, prostate cancer, heart issues (this is only three members of my family I'm thinking of at the moment - theres more)
I feel we always use the anomaly to define the rule, I have been fat previously - I wasn't happy OR healthy and i think to state that you can be healthy and fat is to lead people down a mean trite road whereby you feel good for making them feel good about themselves.
Its about the individual - looking at themselves naked in the mirror, with nothing but their mind to show, having some cold hard truth. There seems to be a lot of counter studies out there so i won't quickly search literature and show something that highlights my own truth, because thats not how i roll - i prefer platos allegory of the cave.
I agree that going out of your way to make someone feel uncomfortable about their weight is a douche move, however - the amount of overweight people that seem to have an opinion on my 6 workouts a week and clean eating seems to be okay.
Maybe my skin is just a little thicker than theirs, maybe they should be asking why that is...
Maybe their ideal truth has never really been thought of.
Live as long as possible, do as much good as possible
I mean, my obese father got a weird ingrown hair on his forehead once that made this giant boil and the hair was 3" long. Other than an arthritic knee (injury-induced), he doesn't have any health problems that I'm aware of. My grandfather was 95 and obese when he died; his obesity was caused by age-related loss of mobility combined with dementia and a wife who smuggled him extra food at the care home. He was only really obese the last 5-6 years of his life.
I was a healthy fat person until I started having babies. I know 100% it would have caught up with me in my 40s, but I do believe that whether one experiences comorbidities with obesity is likely at least partially influenced by genetics. I just happen to have half of my genetic input from a family prone to cardiovascular issues and type 2 diabetes. (If anyone knows of any research on this can you point me at it? Google-fu is failing me.)1 -
I would wonder why anyone who is accepting fat is healthy... is on a My Fitness Pal forum aiming to become more healthy? If you're fat and healthy... why bother?
Genetics plays a part in absolutely everything, I'm sure as we find out even more about epigenetics we will find out more and more, however this argument is not purely scientific - it also relies on a multitude of psychological factors. What dominance hierarchy do you wish to place yourself in? Are you ultimately happy within it? - Id love to debate all this properly with a well rounded emphasis on every aspect. However, Im lay on my back with my macbook at a *kitten* angle and cant type huge sweeping sentences.
Dementia sucks by the way, i feel your pain.2 -
Except that fat people can be healthy. Their statistical probability of becoming ill increases, but it takes class III obesity (BMI 40) to present a significant risk to any random individual. On the other hand, that same level of risk is achieved at a BMI of 18...
I will have to take your word for it that health problems statistically only significantly increase at BMI 40, since I'm too lazy to look for the "peer-reviewed studies" everyone around here is always demanding. Seems to me you can find a peer-reviewed study to support just about anything these days...
In my personal anecdotal experience, as I'm aging, I see that the vast majority of my peers who are BMI 30 and over are rapidly falling apart health-wise. A healthy obese person in their 40's seems to be the exception. I'm fit and healthy, and my BMI is 21.5. The other active, lean people I know are also healthy. One of them just had a cancerous mole removed (skin cancer), but it was a quick and easy fix because it was caught early. I know I'm eventually going to start having age-related problems, but I expect that to be far in the future when I'm actually old. I'm doing what I can to stay healthy for as long as possible. I only have one life to live, so I want to make the best of it.
The people I know with higher BMIs are starting to get all the health problems their grandparents had in their 60's and 70's. They're hypertensive, diabetic or pre-diabetic, have lots of joint and back problems, tired all the time, etc. They're on a cocktail of medications. My obese, soda-chugging brother-in-law ended up in a diabetic coma and almost died at age 36. And a lot of these are super-expensive, chronic conditions. It seems to me that there must be a correlation between overweight and all these early-onset health problems. All these healthy obese people must be in their 20's or something, because I'm just not seeing it in my peer group. If you're obese and healthy now, don't count on it lasting.
I don't know a single person with a BMI lower than 18 (although I know they exist, they aren't as common as obese folks, (especially at my age - 40's) so I'm not going to compare the dangers of underweight to overweight. To me, they are two separate things. I think people often refer to the dangers of being underweight when talking about obesity-related issues, but I thinks that's just a distraction. That's a separate (but also important) issue as far as I'm concerned.
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onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
Agree!
But I don't agree that genetics has anything to do with anything.
It ALL starts with food.
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cushman5279 wrote: »onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
Agree!
But I don't agree that genetics has anything to do with anything.
It ALL starts with food.
I don't have the genetics to be an NBA star. That's just how it is.
But being fat? That's a choice, not genetics, and I choose not to be. I choose to be fit.4 -
I believe people don't deserve to be treated poorly because they are heavy. That is what the fat acceptance mevement is all about. F.A. also combats myths that you are unattractive, unemployable and have no self control simply because you are bigger. Folks who are bigger are aware of potential health risks, but that's a different story from the social implications of being heavy. Throwing in my 2 ¢
People shouldn't be treated poorly due to being overweight but they also shouldn't be treated better or felt sorry for by others either. They should be treated like everyone else would be treated but no special treatment either.4 -
cushman5279 wrote: »onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
Agree!
But I don't agree that genetics has anything to do with anything.
It ALL starts with food.
Of course genetics has something to do with obesity. You can alter the genes of two rats such that if you feed them the exact same amount of food, one will get fat and the other won't. People are just animals, we are not magically able to exist independent of our genes.
However, even the fat rat can be fed little enough that it will eventually become skinny. It just won't be a very happy rat.
I've seen this from both sides. When I was young and being skinny was effortless (I was a model in high school) I clearly remember remarking to a similarly-sized friend about an older woman we knew, "Before I got so fat my stomach stuck out like that I'd lock myself in a closet with no food!" Oh, fate has a funny way of punishing hubris like that. When I blew out my knee in college and was unable to walk for six months, I learned that I actually had no willpower around food whatsoever, never having needed to learn any.
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rheddmobile wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
Agree!
But I don't agree that genetics has anything to do with anything.
It ALL starts with food.
Of course genetics has something to do with obesity. You can alter the genes of two rats such that if you feed them the exact same amount of food, one will get fat and the other won't. People are just animals, we are not magically able to exist independent of our genes.
However, even the fat rat can be fed little enough that it will eventually become skinny. It just won't be a very happy rat.
I've seen this from both sides. When I was young and being skinny was effortless (I was a model in high school) I clearly remember remarking to a similarly-sized friend about an older woman we knew, "Before I got so fat my stomach stuck out like that I'd lock myself in a closet with no food!" Oh, fate has a funny way of punishing hubris like that. When I blew out my knee in college and was unable to walk for six months, I learned that I actually had no willpower around food whatsoever, never having needed to learn any.
You are beginning your statement with an assumption - not a fact.
Which genes determine weight?
Rats and your n of 1 does not lay much of a foundation. Comatose patients are weight managed via a CICO protocol very similar to MFP. Genetics is not the modern day version of reading tea leaves, scrying entrails, etc. Your behavior determines outcome. Your genes merely establish parameters.5 -
Weight seems to be the one scientific issue that people choose to ignore if it hurts their feelings. You can be in denial all you want, claim that obesity is healthy and that you are in total control. Go for it. You know you're lying if you're obese, I know you're lying and so does society. There is nothing empowering about being obese. The empowerment comes from people realizing they have total control over how heavy they are and learn how to do something about it. Until then, they are stuck in the victim-mode of believing that their fat is happening to them and not something they are actively doing to themselves. Fat acceptance prevents people from discovering the hard and hurtful truth. They are killing themselves decades early.
And before you bring up other vices, I'll preface you by saying that no one has a "smoker's acceptance" or "heroin acceptance" group. If they did, people would be horrified. Being common doesn't make being fat healthy. Being socially acceptable doesn't mean it won't kill you. People are in deep, deep denial.12 -
Who do you think you are arguing with?
Who here is saying that obesity is healthy?0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Geocitiesuser wrote: »calorielogonly wrote: »THE POINT IS....MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. I AM TRYING TO LOSE WEIGHT AND WHY SHOULD ANYONE ELSE CARE?
That's the exact opposite of HAES/FA. HAES is insisting that fat is healthy and "beautiful". It is not. HAES is an active political movement to try to change people's perception of disgusting narcisists who think a political movement to be "beautiful" is less work than just eating less.
What specific laws are you concerned they will get passed or what specific things do you think they will achieve.
As I've mentioned, I don't see them as powerful or socially prominent at all, and if anything I find awareness of obesity as a health risk is nearly universal and certainly more common than it was when I was a kid.
The most concerning to me is getting weight added to the list of categories against which discrimination is illegal because in that case they can force cost-prohibitive accommodations on businesses, and and make it difficult not to hire (or to fire) employees whose weight is detrimental to their job performance.
In what kind of job would weight itself be detrimental to job performance? I understand lack of fitness being an issue, but I've worked in busy kitchens and warehouses with overweight people. Some of them did quite well, others didn't. I understand that many overweight people are unfit, but so are some thin people. I would rather evaluate someone by how they did a job.
policemen? firemen?
Wouldn't that be a fitness issue? Police officers and fire fighters have fitness tests. That wouldn't change if it became illegal to discriminate against overweight people. We'd eliminating the possibility of the presumption that overweight people are automatically unfit by the mere virtue of being overweight.
I fully anticipate that many (if not most) overweight people would fail the fitness tests. But since we have the test in place for those roles, why not go by that?
But if the fitness test is deemed to be discriminatory, the standards will be adjusted. This happened in the military. The fitness tests for Marines, Navy Seals, Army Rangers, etc had standards that were too high for women to physically do. They were deemed to be sexist and adjusted so that women could join up. Now when the military sets up teams, they never set up all women teams because they know the males will have to "help" the females through some of the more physically demanding bits ( carrying gear, getting over obstacles, lugging wounded around, etc). I'm not saying women should never be in the military, I am saying that if something is protected by anti discrimination laws, then fitness tests and other performance tests WILL be adjusted to accommodate.
Female vet here. I think women should be allowed into any role they desire, but they should be capable of doing the job, and the standards shouldn't be artificially lowered for them. But neither should they be artificially high. For example, perhaps a smaller woman needs less equipment than a larger man and thus can get by with a lighter pack. That was just a hypothetical - I was in the USAF and didn't do any pack-carrying
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Geocitiesuser wrote: »calorielogonly wrote: »THE POINT IS....MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. I AM TRYING TO LOSE WEIGHT AND WHY SHOULD ANYONE ELSE CARE?
That's the exact opposite of HAES/FA. HAES is insisting that fat is healthy and "beautiful". It is not. HAES is an active political movement to try to change people's perception of disgusting narcisists who think a political movement to be "beautiful" is less work than just eating less.
What specific laws are you concerned they will get passed or what specific things do you think they will achieve.
As I've mentioned, I don't see them as powerful or socially prominent at all, and if anything I find awareness of obesity as a health risk is nearly universal and certainly more common than it was when I was a kid.
The most concerning to me is getting weight added to the list of categories against which discrimination is illegal because in that case they can force cost-prohibitive accommodations on businesses, and and make it difficult not to hire (or to fire) employees whose weight is detrimental to their job performance.
In what kind of job would weight itself be detrimental to job performance? I understand lack of fitness being an issue, but I've worked in busy kitchens and warehouses with overweight people. Some of them did quite well, others didn't. I understand that many overweight people are unfit, but so are some thin people. I would rather evaluate someone by how they did a job.
policemen? firemen?
Wouldn't that be a fitness issue? Police officers and fire fighters have fitness tests. That wouldn't change if it became illegal to discriminate against overweight people. We'd eliminating the possibility of the presumption that overweight people are automatically unfit by the mere virtue of being overweight.
I fully anticipate that many (if not most) overweight people would fail the fitness tests. But since we have the test in place for those roles, why not go by that?
But if the fitness test is deemed to be discriminatory, the standards will be adjusted. This happened in the military. The fitness tests for Marines, Navy Seals, Army Rangers, etc had standards that were too high for women to physically do. They were deemed to be sexist and adjusted so that women could join up. Now when the military sets up teams, they never set up all women teams because they know the males will have to "help" the females through some of the more physically demanding bits ( carrying gear, getting over obstacles, lugging wounded around, etc). I'm not saying women should never be in the military, I am saying that if something is protected by anti discrimination laws, then fitness tests and other performance tests WILL be adjusted to accommodate.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't share your assumption.
All I'm saying is that weight itself shouldn't be considered detrimental to job performance. It doesn't follow that fitness tests (for jobs that require them) should be adjusted. For jobs without fitness tests, job performance can be a sufficient evaluation.
At least my "assumption" is based on the historical facts of how anti discrimination laws have affected fitness tests to accommodate less physically able people in the real world. Your assumption appears to be based on some sort of alternate reality. You're welcome to it.
My position is based on my actual experience hiring and supervising people in kitchens and warehouses, some of whom have been protected by various existing anti-discrimination laws. An anti-discrimination law doesn't change the fact that jobs can have fitness tests related to the demands of the job and it doesn't change the fact that employers can outline essential functions of the job that applicants must be able to perform.
If you're determined to dismiss actual experience, law, and current practices as "alternative reality," I guess there isn't much basis for this conversation to continue. I wish you the best.
Goodness me. So your experience in a kitchen qualifies you to dismiss my comment about fitness test adjustments in the military as a result of anti discrimination laws. Unfortunately, what you don't know is that I had 18yrs in the military retiring at the LtCol level so I am intimately familiar with what I am talking about. I honestly don't think kitchen or warehouse work really equates to jobs that were mentioned like police, firemen, military etc as much as you may think it does.
I suggest you stay in the kitchen and not critique comments that are obviously beyond your realm of experience.
I served in the military, and in kitchens and warehouses, and learned lessons from each place. I find your "stay in the kitchen" rather, well, I'll just leave it as Jack Nicholson-like.10 -
calorielogonly wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »calorielogonly wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »I agree that being overweight is not ideal and eventually leads to health issues.
Which is why HAES is a lie, and fat acceptance is death acceptance.Does anyone want to see an eff-ing medical miracle? This is my blood work from a couple of months ago before I got back on the wagon. I procrastinated about getting my blood work because I thought for sure being obese would have caught up to me by now. This is my blood work copied and pasted from the online database...pretty cool that we can look up our results online now, rather than just wait for the doctor to say the numbers were normal, or not, or whatever.
There are a lot of 41 year old smokers who don't have cancer, emphysema and COPD yet.
THE POINT IS....MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. I AM TRYING TO LOSE WEIGHT AND WHY SHOULD ANYONE ELSE CARE? EVERYONE ON HERE IS TRYING TO LOSE WEIGHT, OR GAIN WEIGHT, OR SOMETHING..... DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD HATE OURSELVES FOR IT, OR ACCEPT OURSELVES, IS NONSENSE. PEOPLE PLEASE MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
I'M REALLY JUST ON HERE TO LOG MY DIET AND EXERCISE AND I DIDN'T EXPECT THIS. I DON'T DO SOCIAL MEDIA BUT IT SEEMS EVERYTHING IS SOCIAL MEDIA THESE DAYS.
Yet you choose to put your health history on a public forum and get offended when someone comments on it?
Actually, no one commented on my medical history, my actual blood work results. I just was upset about it when I woke up this morning and figured no-one believed me, so I shared it. I can't delete it now. I can't get this stupid thing out of my head, that's why I don't do social media. Not sure why I looked this post up again. Anyway, I was talking about people being overly concerned about other people being fat, people should mind their own business about that and just look the other way, you don't know what that person is going through.
You can ask a moderator to delete it by clicking on the Flag button, then Report > This is my post and I want to delete it.
My blood work has always been good. My knees have not. Losing weight and exercising has helped considerably with that.
Also, stairs no longer make me out of breath.0 -
You should never believe that it's okay for someone to remain overweight, but for me 'fat acceptance' is keeping high-horse opinions to yourself, not judging and never picking on someone for their weight. People who mock and disgrace those with weight issues have a distinct lack of humanity and basic decency.
Encourage them to change their lives, but don't hate on overweight people.5 -
This movement should never have been about bodies. Self confidence does not come like that necessarily and personally I don't think it's healthy to assume that people should base their self confidence around their size/weight. It's turned a lot of people into bullies and is keeping even more people from being responsible with their health.
Being on the skinny side of life (my whole life) it makes me angry to have to be bullied weekly at least to eat more by strangers and friends alike. It's not ok to make fun of anyone of any size for anything. The confidence that it takes to let those things roll off isn't found in accepting your body.
I'm also aware of insistent advertising that sets a lot of standards of fit and healthy. Men and women alike are blasted with the images and it's not plus size or particularly small, either. It's anything that will get people to buy into whatever fad will make them look like that. We have a disconnect between actual health and "healthy things" right now. If you don't believe me you can go look at the processed junk that people eat as health food when they're on a diet.5 -
Well I've been overweight and it was nothing other than lack of discipline and gluttony that got me there. I'm ashamed I got like that and rightfully so...if that offends so be it.7
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Well I've been overweight and it was nothing other than lack of discipline and gluttony that got me there. I'm ashamed I got like that and rightfully so...if that offends so be it.
I agree with you 100% and have the same exact perspective on myself. I got overweight because I ate too much, that was a result of stupidity and poor decision making for which I was entirely at fault, and I have since corrected the problem.
I will not tolerate a personal recurrence.5 -
Tbh I'm the same. I have many overweight friends (some who do support it). I would even say the majority of my friends are probably overweight or borderline overweight (66% of america is overweight or obese at this point). I want the best for them but do not comment on their weight, so i do not understand why they do? They also comment on mine.. calling me "skinny" or " tiny" when I am a perfectly average weight for my height. I think when so many people are unhealthy in this country the average (distribution) has shifted to the right, towards higher weights, and thus people forget what was considered "normal" and what was considered healthy not that long ago. Along with this comes a desire to explain or excuse this movement to unhealthier standards. It is absolutely impossible to be VERY overweight and be healthy... I am sure there are some people who are BARELY overweight who are fine, but eventually they COULD run into health issues. We have to ask ourselves is it worth the risk? I think not.4
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It is ok to be "ok" with your weight or body type. There is nothing wrong with that and people should not judge you based on that or "guilt" you into feeling YOU need to be happy with your weight or body type. If you want a change then change, all of us here at MFP are here to help if needed.
I am currently 44, 23olbs and 5' 10", I was 285lbs and I was fat, no question about it and I thought I was happy with it. I was in a size 44 jeans headed to the next size and I decided it was time to get back down, I lost 55lbs so far and dropped to a size 38 jeans but I have at least 20 more to go to reach what I think is a good weight for me. I stopped looking at the scale and started looking at the results, measurements, and appearance.
I agree with a lot of people here, weight is a number and does not indicate healthiness, I have seen skinny people that are extremely unhealthy. Not saying there are not health issues associated with weight.Some of the rhetoric, data, and charts put out indicating if people are healthy, overweight or obese is ridiculous. According to the charts someone my size and age should weigh 179lbs and is considered in the obese section but these charts and criteria that define obese or heavy do not take into consideration the width of your chest, the muscle mass you have or any of that. Just looks at Age and weight...
Just remember to be happy and be you, if others can not accept that then you do not need them in your life!!3 -
Tropicoolblonde wrote: »I would even say the majority of my friends are probably overweight or borderline overweight (66% of america is overweight or obese at this point).
What The kitten is "borderline overweight" . Now being "borderline overweight" is an indication one "doesn't care about their health"? This looks like moving goalposts to me.
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