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What are your unpopular opinions about health / fitness?
Replies
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Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »See the problem here is just a lack of humility...
People just can't handle the fact that what they believe may be wrong. All I've heard so far is "The study is right if I agree with it and wrong if I disagree with it".
And yeah McDonalds offers salads because they want your money, not because they are concerned about the health of their customers...
The food industry has one goal, to get you to consume as much as possible for the cheapest cost at the highest price... None of you can disagree with this statement, and if you do agree with this statement, than you have to agree that they are philosophically against you...
As for a victim mentality... I don't come in here and say the things I say to promote a victim mentality (BTW, that's a pretty lame weak losers argument against the things I've said).
I say what I say because I know there are people who come on to these forums looking for genuine advice, some who are facing a mountain that just seems daunting. Blaming them for their current situation when you know nothing about them or their lives would just make me a pious self-righteous a-hole.
I want readers to know that you are not lazy, you are not weak, you are not incapable, inept or inadequate...There IS a superhuman inside of you, but they need your help...
So don't give in this lunch or dinner to the marketer's and food engineers at fast food chains, their very profits are bet against your ability to free that super hero inside of you! Think about it, why do they have to make their frys so salty?
And remember that if you really know better and give in to McDonald's and the food industry anyway... Then csardiver is right... Otherwise be ready to fight for your health because they are against you, don't believe they are not...
Now it's up to you to eat wise and exercise!
If this is all you've heard then try listening.
Just a point that this is the debate section, where there are many of us who are not seeking to be right, but enjoy having our ideas and thoughts challenged in a never ending search for the truth.
Truth is dealt in the specifics. People trying to be right deal in vague generalities and tend to stray off topic when challenged.
I could not agree more, in fact that was the whole point of my original post this morning, to which you responded... "Oh no, I really do know it all though" haha... I kid, well not really but I'm burnt out for now... It's 12 against 1 in here but I have enjoyed this and will be back...
The fact is I believe a lot of the opinions I've heard in here are self serving... In other words they exist to help you believe that you are some how better than obese or less healthy people in general...
I believe this whole "It's your fault" mentality exists mainly to point out your own lack of "faults", it's not tough love, it's self-righteousness and piety...
I'm here because I want readers to know they are not weak...
just wow....7 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »See the problem here is just a lack of humility...
People just can't handle the fact that what they believe may be wrong. All I've heard so far is "The study is right if I agree with it and wrong if I disagree with it".
And yeah McDonalds offers salads because they want your money, not because they are concerned about the health of their customers...
The food industry has one goal, to get you to consume as much as possible for the cheapest cost at the highest price... None of you can disagree with this statement, and if you do agree with this statement, than you have to agree that they are philosophically against you...
As for a victim mentality... I don't come in here and say the things I say to promote a victim mentality (BTW, that's a pretty lame weak losers argument against the things I've said).
I say what I say because I know there are people who come on to these forums looking for genuine advice, some who are facing a mountain that just seems daunting. Blaming them for their current situation when you know nothing about them or their lives would just make me a pious self-righteous a-hole.
I want readers to know that you are not lazy, you are not weak, you are not incapable, inept or inadequate...There IS a superhuman inside of you, but they need your help...
So don't give in this lunch or dinner to the marketer's and food engineers at fast food chains, their very profits are bet against your ability to free that super hero inside of you! Think about it, why do they have to make their frys so salty?
And remember that if you really know better and give in to McDonald's and the food industry anyway... Then csardiver is right... Otherwise be ready to fight for your health because they are against you, don't believe they are not...
Now it's up to you to eat wise and exercise!
If this is all you've heard then try listening.
Just a point that this is the debate section, where there are many of us who are not seeking to be right, but enjoy having our ideas and thoughts challenged in a never ending search for the truth.
Truth is dealt in the specifics. People trying to be right deal in vague generalities and tend to stray off topic when challenged.
I could not agree more, in fact that was the whole point of my original post this morning, to which you responded... "Oh no, I really do know it all though" haha... I kid, well not really but I'm burnt out for now... It's 12 against 1 in here but I have enjoyed this and will be back...
The fact is I believe a lot of the opinions I've heard in here are self serving... In other words they exist to help you believe that you are some how better than obese or less healthy people in general...
I believe this whole "It's your fault" mentality exists mainly to point out your own lack of "faults", it's not tough love, it's self-righteousness and piety...
I'm here because I want readers to know they are not weak...
Disagree.
We are saying if we can do it anyone can. Self-discipline is absolutely the #1 thing in weight loss. If someone has gotten to morbid obesity, there is something more going on than eating McRibs. We have been there, and any problem or compulsion that anyone has regarding weight - someone here has been there and can testify.
This forum is full of compassionate, helpful, intelligent, well-meaning people.
We don't let this kind of victim mentality stand. If they are super sensitive to the truth, maybe they need counseling.
It isn't easy, but there are answers and the answers don't come from blaming anyone other than the person shoving the pie in the pie-hole.14 -
SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »All our bodies are so different, the truth is no one really knows what works or how it works, but everyone who's read the latest article is an expert... (rolls eyes)
Our bodies are remarkably similar. We know quite a lot about what works and how it works for the important aspects.
Our behaviors are very different; however. Despite this simple fact many get lost obsessing on the insignificant issues and lose the larger picture. There is easy money to be made convincing people otherwise - 20 B in the US alone.
Not so, truth is we really have no idea...
Anything you can find a study for, low carb, cico, veganism, high protein, low fat, gluten free, organic, hiit, steady state... Whatever
I bet you can find a study that provides evidence to the contrary, and an army of people who believe the opposite...
I've found that many of today's know-it-alls, will claim something totally different when the next trend comes along
... only if your definition of "study" is extremely loose.
The one truth and constant is that large food manufacturers and the fast food industry doesn't give a damn about you...
I understand that their a business and responsible to their shareholders blah blah blah...
But that's exactly the point, they only care about the profit and not for your health
That is a sweeping generalization that I don't believe applies to every large food manufacturer or fast food company.
On an unrelated note - I've been totally craving a McGriddle the last couple of days!
No, you are completely wrong, and people do need to get this right. That they are responsible to shareholders first actually applies to every large food manufacturer and fast food company. In fact its written in their rules of corporate governance. Profit and interests of the shareholders is ALWAYS above "caring for your health". However, some may have good marketing departments which make it seem untrue to those uninformed possibly. And many have goals which can sometimes coincide with consumer health. But it is not the primary goal.
I'm actually not sure how this has to be explained to people still?
Saying that a company "doesn't give a damn about you" because they have a responsibility to shareholders is a vast over-simplification. A parent has a responsibility to their children, but it doesn't mean they don't give a damn about every other human on earth.6 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »See the problem here is just a lack of humility...
People just can't handle the fact that what they believe may be wrong. All I've heard so far is "The study is right if I agree with it and wrong if I disagree with it".
And yeah McDonalds offers salads because they want your money, not because they are concerned about the health of their customers...
The food industry has one goal, to get you to consume as much as possible for the cheapest cost at the highest price... None of you can disagree with this statement, and if you do agree with this statement, than you have to agree that they are philosophically against you...
As for a victim mentality... I don't come in here and say the things I say to promote a victim mentality (BTW, that's a pretty lame weak losers argument against the things I've said).
I say what I say because I know there are people who come on to these forums looking for genuine advice, some who are facing a mountain that just seems daunting. Blaming them for their current situation when you know nothing about them or their lives would just make me a pious self-righteous a-hole.
I want readers to know that you are not lazy, you are not weak, you are not incapable, inept or inadequate...There IS a superhuman inside of you, but they need your help...
So don't give in this lunch or dinner to the marketer's and food engineers at fast food chains, their very profits are bet against your ability to free that super hero inside of you! Think about it, why do they have to make their frys so salty?
And remember that if you really know better and give in to McDonald's and the food industry anyway... Then csardiver is right... Otherwise be ready to fight for your health because they are against you, don't believe they are not...
Now it's up to you to eat wise and exercise!
You are right about one thing, there are thousands of people who come to these forums looking for genuine advice, who find the concept of losing weight to be a very daunting task. From there though, I am both confused and I disagree with you. Who is blaming those who come to the forums looking for help? Someone in these threads? Are you blaming them? I don't see any blame at all, in this thread or any other, so I'm not sure where this point is coming from.
Blah blah blah motivational stuff, we all have it inside ourselves - yep, I agree. No one can do this for you, you have to do it yourself. Totally agree.
How does that translate then to never eating food from mass market producers? How does purchasing food at McDonalds, or that Nabisco prepares, invalidate all of the other things you said? If it is up to the individual to find their own way, to make their own success, to free the super hero inside of them - why does it matter if they choose to eat a McDouble, small fries and a diet coke within their calories; or a fruit and yogurt parfait, or anything else they desire? If they are empowered individuals, with free will - how is their choice as a consumer to spend the money they earned at a place that produces food that they desire - going to negate their ability to be successful?
What is your recommendation? Everyone must grow, kill, and prepare their own food by hand? Wouldn't that be the only scenario in which the evil corporations who want to profit off consumers by following market trends and tailoring their products to what customers want - go out of business? Even small businesses, local farmers, local restaurants, etc - everyone is focused on being profitable. Profit follows giving customers what they want. That's how business works.12 -
jessiferrrb wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »So don't give in this lunch or dinner to the marketer's and food engineers at fast food chains, their very profits are bet against your ability to free that super hero inside of you! Think about it, why do they have to make their frys so salty?
And remember that if you really know better and give in to McDonald's and the food industry anyway... Then csardiver is right... Otherwise be ready to fight for your health because they are against you, don't believe they are not...
Now it's up to you to eat wise and exercise!
So if I go to McD's or Wendy's or Jack or any other food establishment and get a salad with plain grilled chicken (no fries, no burger, etc), have I then given in to the 'establishment' and lost my soul in the process?!?!?
Imagine if you ordered a cheeseburger and fries!!!
mmm fries
When the US obesity rate reaches 90%, "Mmm Fries" will officially replace "E Pluribus Unum" on all of our currency...8 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »The food industry has one goal, to get you to consume as much as possible for the cheapest cost at the highest price... None of you can disagree with this statement, and if you do agree with this statement, than you have to agree that they are philosophically against you...
It's not shocking that the point of a business is to make money, but I completely disagree that they are philosophically against people. They offer what sells, and what sells is decided by the customer because if it doesn't it's no longer profitable. They are philosophically for the customer because the customer is the main factor in this equation. They are not deliberately selling things that are "bad for you". They are selling these things because people want them.
Why do they make their fries salty? Because people like them that way, and those who don't like them heavily salted pick the "lightly salted" option. I know I do. I also know that the "lightly salted" option is not offered because they care about your health just like they offer the heavily salted option regardless of your blood pressure status and not because they want to make you sick, but for one simple reason: it's not their job to care.
People at the farmer's market don't care about your health either. All they care about is making a living. So don't give into this and stop handing money to those who want to take it.
You see we really agree that the fast food industry doesn't care about your health, we just disagree about their methods towards profit...
Your perspective is just too naive for me to buy in to.... They are not simply trying to offer what people want, they are much smarter than that.
There is just more to super sized portions than offering people what they want... Your fooling yourself if you believe they are not trying to get people to buy more than they really want...
Umm...bigger portions = less profit...3 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »I bet if I said you people are right, you would all claim to be wrong... Haha!
I bet if we said we were wrong, you would tell us we're right.10 -
I'll never understand why the concept that eating too much food is bad for you, as is not getting in your macros and micronutrients, seems to be so tightly coupled with "avoid foods that taste good to you because big agro wants you to eat it". Why shouldn't I enjoy a fast food burger and fries and count the nutrients toward my daily totals? There's nothing in fast food (except gluten) that I need to avoid, and if I were to choose to spend an entire vacation eating mostly fast food while meeting my nutrition requirements I have no doubt my health would be just fine. I think that telling people to pass on that fast food because the evil food industry made it taste too good is a little perplexing, and implies that if you eat it you'll lose all self control.
NOTE THAT I'M NOT ADVOCATING PEOPLE EAT NOTHING BUT FAST FOOD. My point is that there's nothing wrong in meeting daily nutrient requirements requirements with food that tastes good to you.10 -
stevencloser wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Okaaaay, let's try this...
True or False...
The world is round...
Technically false in any case, but which way are you trying to determine, latitudinally or longitudinally?
Approximately spherical?
Yes. Keyword: approximately.6 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Okaaaay, let's try this...
True or False...
The world is round...
In truth, the earth is not round. so False!
For practical purposes it is. so true.
In fact, it's an oblate spheroid fat in the middle due to centripetal or centrifugal force15 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Okaaaay, let's try this...
True or False...
The world is round...
In fact, it's an oblate spheroid fat in the middle due to centripetal or centrifugal force
That kind of describes me at the moment....
27 -
SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »All our bodies are so different, the truth is no one really knows what works or how it works, but everyone who's read the latest article is an expert... (rolls eyes)
Our bodies are remarkably similar. We know quite a lot about what works and how it works for the important aspects.
Our behaviors are very different; however. Despite this simple fact many get lost obsessing on the insignificant issues and lose the larger picture. There is easy money to be made convincing people otherwise - 20 B in the US alone.
Not so, truth is we really have no idea...
Anything you can find a study for, low carb, cico, veganism, high protein, low fat, gluten free, organic, hiit, steady state... Whatever
I bet you can find a study that provides evidence to the contrary, and an army of people who believe the opposite...
I've found that many of today's know-it-alls, will claim something totally different when the next trend comes along
... only if your definition of "study" is extremely loose.
The one truth and constant is that large food manufacturers and the fast food industry doesn't give a damn about you...
I understand that their a business and responsible to their shareholders blah blah blah...
But that's exactly the point, they only care about the profit and not for your health
That is a sweeping generalization that I don't believe applies to every large food manufacturer or fast food company.
On an unrelated note - I've been totally craving a McGriddle the last couple of days!
No, you are completely wrong, and people do need to get this right. That they are responsible to shareholders first actually applies to every large food manufacturer and fast food company. In fact its written in their rules of corporate governance. Profit and interests of the shareholders is ALWAYS above "caring for your health". However, some may have good marketing departments which make it seem untrue to those uninformed possibly. And many have goals which can sometimes coincide with consumer health. But it is not the primary goal.
I'm actually not sure how this has to be explained to people still?
Yep, shareholders. And you know what's the best way to make money? Sell people what they've demonstrated they actually want.
When I took graduate-level marketing classes, they made it pretty clear that the formula is to figure out what people really, really want - not what they say they want, not what they think they ought to want.
Then you provide what the people (en masse) want, but you advertise it as being what they think they ought to want. Voila: Crispy chicken salad! Natural! With Newman's Own reduced-calorie dressing, aura of charitable generosity included!
It is not their job to attend to our well-being. They're not our mommy or daddy. It's our job to figure out what we want, and buy it, thus voting with our dollars for more of that.
If we wanted and bought organic gluten-free roasted brussels sprouts in environmentally-friendly single-serve shelf-stable packaging, they'd be falling all over themselves to sell them to us . . . better, cheaper, and faster.28 -
Why is there this mistaken idea that responsibility to shareholders is mutually exclusive of responsibility to consumers? Don't people work for corporations? You're not going to make shareholders happy if you don't make customers happy.
I work for a medical device company. We sell equipment to hospitals. It is made very clear to us - in our metrics, bonuses, evaluations, and so on - that we are responsible to multiple parties: our shareholders, our customers, our patients, AND our regulating bodies. It would be asinine to think otherwise.
You could make an argument that our company would do best if the medical conditions that we treat were widespread. We should want as many people as possible to be sick to maximize our profits. But the reality is the opposite: we are all in this business to cure illness and help people. We get motivated every day at the prospect of helping people and making their lives better. Our company "vision" explicitly states that we want to wipe out these diseases.
10 -
Now I'm wondering if any roasted brussels sprouts contain gluten and, if so... why?4
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stevencloser wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »The food industry has one goal, to get you to consume as much as possible for the cheapest cost at the highest price... None of you can disagree with this statement, and if you do agree with this statement, than you have to agree that they are philosophically against you...
It's not shocking that the point of a business is to make money, but I completely disagree that they are philosophically against people. They offer what sells, and what sells is decided by the customer because if it doesn't it's no longer profitable. They are philosophically for the customer because the customer is the main factor in this equation. They are not deliberately selling things that are "bad for you". They are selling these things because people want them.
Why do they make their fries salty? Because people like them that way, and those who don't like them heavily salted pick the "lightly salted" option. I know I do. I also know that the "lightly salted" option is not offered because they care about your health just like they offer the heavily salted option regardless of your blood pressure status and not because they want to make you sick, but for one simple reason: it's not their job to care.
People at the farmer's market don't care about your health either. All they care about is making a living. So don't give into this and stop handing money to those who want to take it.
You see we really agree that the fast food industry doesn't care about your health, we just disagree about their methods towards profit...
Your perspective is just too naive for me to buy in to.... They are not simply trying to offer what people want, they are much smarter than that.
There is just more to super sized portions than offering people what they want... Your fooling yourself if you believe they are not trying to get people to buy more than they really want...
Every single industry doesn't care about your health. Scratch that every single company doesn't care about your health. Not even a mom and pop shop. They also don't care about your sickness either, yet you're making it sound suspiciously as if they purposely want to make you sick for some nefarious goal only you know.
The problem here is people with the mindset you seem to have shown tend to rely on "they dont want dead customers" as a way of justifying "safety" and support of new chemical additives, etc. added by a company, when in fact they don't really care as long as they don't have to deal with a negative result that costs them money.
They are not evil, they are neutral, they want more money first and foremost. Which means others should analyze the results and promotion of their products, not because they are evil or good, but because they will only do what they determine 1) best for profit and 2) cheapest. Mom and pops are quite different, and can actually be of any kind of extreme depending on all kinds of factors, including how aware they even are of their goals, some actually do have businesses with profit not the primary reason, and they don't have to function in the interest of profit...this can be bad too but its another discussion and they shouldn't really be lumped together.
Many of the problems with certain processed products are not going to be very obvious. Many health effects wont show up for a long time if ever, and most you can eat some of the product and not ever see any effects. Being "OMG corporations are evil" is just the other side of "its been tested by the corp, its fine". Its better for people's health to have a healthy suspicion and analyze things from both sides. In fact many of the health effects that are currently being noted are much harder to analyze than they used to be, and much harder for random layperson to even extract information from a study, especially with unhelpful sensational headlines bringing it to your attention.
I find over and over the general idea here that processed food is healthy and no different than any other food, and ridiculing anyone who says otherwise by painting them as extremes and dismissing them. Most of this is done with little to no info, acting as an "expert", it feels kind of like the "in" thing here. Probably part of this is in reaction to all kinds of promoted diets and "health foods" of the opposite extreme. But to those people who do pay attention to the studies, in general we know processed foods have shown to be inferior in most all cases studied, and is bad information to say they aren't any different. That processed food isn't going to kill you is probably true, we won't know that off a study you like to quote that finds "no difference" though. And we won't even know for certain if it does take a year or two off someone's life, or maybe just a year or two off of mobile life worth living, even if we followed that individual all their life, because its large averages in populations over time that is needed to really show an effect. We all know extremes and exceptions of anything and can post some examples that will kill you, "natural" or no. We all can find examples of processing which are good. These are not the issue. The idea is moderation and analysis and to stay away from extremes, and determine what is likely, and stay away from things with possible costs, IF its not going to cause "too much" difficulty in your particular case to do.
Let's take a short review of sucralose for example, which is highly defended here. Studies in total do not see strong effects from taking it without large dosages. However, even in studies which determine it is "safe", we do see highly probable health effects. Subjects killed in these studies show inflamed filter organs, and shrunken immune organs off normal, but do not die, before they are killed anyways. Is it possible they may die earlier, or have less function later, or be more prone to infection, or be more prone to disease of the very important filter organs, or show increased disease of the affected organs combined with some other factor, or be more prone to hypertrophy and tumor in inflamed areas, or have eventual scarring of inflamed organs, or show less reaction over all to immune challenges...? These and many questions are logical results of such findings, but have not and will not be studied because there is no money in it. So there are many intelligent objections to just taking a substance of unresolved concerns, without it being "its going to kill you!". The actual sum total of these studies does not show "its safe", it shows there probably is a low level negative health consequence to this substance, we arent sure, but inflammation of filter organs is never a good thing, and shrinkage of the thymus can reduce immune function. The only question is whether a low dose can have such an effect...which we also cant answer...
Next, we go to the question of what is the benefit of this substance? Many new studies are showing that the probable lower calorie benefit resulting in weight reduction just arent panning out, some are showing people who tend to use more are higher BMI. And quite a few recently are showing there are some concerns health wise in changing the internal flora which may result in the opposite, or other unforeseen health effects. Especially in view of studies not about sweeteners, showing changes in flora affecting things like mental health, heart disease, immune function, diabetes...some of the main health conditions and most likely things one would die of. Sum total of benefit is a questionable one, with evidence it can change internal flora, and that internal flora is something which is starting to be acknowledged as very important and could have high negative consequence.
So logically, if you are presented with a substance with these qualities, you then determine if it is worth the risk to you to use in view of your expected result in using it. In this case hopes of reducing calories and the positive health effects of eventual weight loss. Really, its a very weak if any positives to weak negatives towards the goal in mind, for a cost of a weak negative to no influence in health, with risks of much stronger negatives especially in larger doses. Its also not going to be too difficult (yet) or expensive to avoid.
You know, it just doesn't sound like something people should seek out. But its also not something one should really avoid like the plague. It sure isn't the same as consuming non processed food. And it was made and added to food for profit, not because corporations love or hate you.13 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »Now I'm wondering if any roasted brussels sprouts contain gluten and, if so... why?
Well, I'm drinking a can of Parrot brand Coconut water right now that proudly proclaims "Gluten Free!!!" and wondered the same kind of thing... how many other brands of Coconut water actually do have gluten. 2 -
SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »The food industry has one goal, to get you to consume as much as possible for the cheapest cost at the highest price... None of you can disagree with this statement, and if you do agree with this statement, than you have to agree that they are philosophically against you...
It's not shocking that the point of a business is to make money, but I completely disagree that they are philosophically against people. They offer what sells, and what sells is decided by the customer because if it doesn't it's no longer profitable. They are philosophically for the customer because the customer is the main factor in this equation. They are not deliberately selling things that are "bad for you". They are selling these things because people want them.
Why do they make their fries salty? Because people like them that way, and those who don't like them heavily salted pick the "lightly salted" option. I know I do. I also know that the "lightly salted" option is not offered because they care about your health just like they offer the heavily salted option regardless of your blood pressure status and not because they want to make you sick, but for one simple reason: it's not their job to care.
People at the farmer's market don't care about your health either. All they care about is making a living. So don't give into this and stop handing money to those who want to take it.
You see we really agree that the fast food industry doesn't care about your health, we just disagree about their methods towards profit...
Your perspective is just too naive for me to buy in to.... They are not simply trying to offer what people want, they are much smarter than that.
There is just more to super sized portions than offering people what they want... Your fooling yourself if you believe they are not trying to get people to buy more than they really want...
Every single industry doesn't care about your health. Scratch that every single company doesn't care about your health. Not even a mom and pop shop. They also don't care about your sickness either, yet you're making it sound suspiciously as if they purposely want to make you sick for some nefarious goal only you know.
The problem here is people with the mindset you seem to have shown tend to rely on "they dont want dead customers" as a way of justifying "safety" and support of new chemical additives, etc. added by a company, when in fact they don't really care as long as they don't have to deal with a negative result that costs them money.
They are not evil, they are neutral, they want more money first and foremost. Which means others should analyze the results and promotion of their products, not because they are evil or good, but because they will only do what they determine 1) best for profit and 2) cheapest. Mom and pops are quite different, and can actually be of any kind of extreme depending on all kinds of factors, including how aware they even are of their goals, some actually do have businesses with profit not the primary reason, and they don't have to function in the interest of profit...this can be bad too but its another discussion and they shouldn't really be lumped together.
Many of the problems with certain processed products are not going to be very obvious. Many health effects wont show up for a long time if ever, and most you can eat some of the product and not ever see any effects. Being "OMG corporations are evil" is just the other side of "its been tested by the corp, its fine". Its better for people's health to have a healthy suspicion and analyze things from both sides. In fact many of the health effects that are currently being noted are much harder to analyze than they used to be, and much harder for random layperson to even extract information from a study, especially with unhelpful sensational headlines bringing it to your attention.
I find over and over the general idea here that processed food is healthy and no different than any other food, and ridiculing anyone who says otherwise by painting them as extremes and dismissing them. Most of this is done with little to no info, acting as an "expert", it feels kind of like the "in" thing here. Probably part of this is in reaction to all kinds of promoted diets and "health foods" of the opposite extreme. But to those people who do pay attention to the studies, in general we know processed foods have shown to be inferior in most all cases studied, and is bad information to say they aren't any different. That processed food isn't going to kill you is probably true, we won't know that off a study you like to quote that finds "no difference" though. And we won't even know for certain if it does take a year or two off someone's life, or maybe just a year or two off of mobile life worth living, even if we followed that individual all their life, because its large averages in populations over time that is needed to really show an effect. We all know extremes and exceptions of anything and can post some examples that will kill you, "natural" or no. We all can find examples of processing which are good. These are not the issue. The idea is moderation and analysis and to stay away from extremes, and determine what is likely, and stay away from things with possible costs, IF its not going to cause "too much" difficulty in your particular case to do.
Let's take a short review of sucralose for example, which is highly defended here. Studies in total do not see strong effects from taking it without large dosages. However, even in studies which determine it is "safe", we do see highly probable health effects. Subjects killed in these studies show inflamed filter organs, and shrunken immune organs off normal, but do not die, before they are killed anyways. Is it possible they may die earlier, or have less function later, or be more prone to infection, or be more prone to disease of the very important filter organs, or show increased disease of the affected organs combined with some other factor, or be more prone to hypertrophy and tumor in inflamed areas, or have eventual scarring of inflamed organs, or show less reaction over all to immune challenges...? These and many questions are logical results of such findings, but have not and will not be studied because there is no money in it. So there are many intelligent objections to just taking a substance of unresolved concerns, without it being "its going to kill you!". The actual sum total of these studies does not show "its safe", it shows there probably is a low level negative health consequence to this substance, we arent sure, but inflammation of filter organs is never a good thing, and shrinkage of the thymus can reduce immune function. The only question is whether a low dose can have such an effect...which we also cant answer...
Human trials? Please provide a reference to a single human trial of sucralose where the participants were killed en masse.
3 -
Bry_Lander wrote: »jessiferrrb wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »So don't give in this lunch or dinner to the marketer's and food engineers at fast food chains, their very profits are bet against your ability to free that super hero inside of you! Think about it, why do they have to make their frys so salty?
And remember that if you really know better and give in to McDonald's and the food industry anyway... Then csardiver is right... Otherwise be ready to fight for your health because they are against you, don't believe they are not...
Now it's up to you to eat wise and exercise!
So if I go to McD's or Wendy's or Jack or any other food establishment and get a salad with plain grilled chicken (no fries, no burger, etc), have I then given in to the 'establishment' and lost my soul in the process?!?!?
Imagine if you ordered a cheeseburger and fries!!!
mmm fries
When the US obesity rate reaches 90%, "Mmm Fries" will officially replace "E Pluribus Unum" on all of our currency...
That would be E Pluribus Awesome!10 -
Bry_Lander wrote: »jessiferrrb wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »So don't give in this lunch or dinner to the marketer's and food engineers at fast food chains, their very profits are bet against your ability to free that super hero inside of you! Think about it, why do they have to make their frys so salty?
And remember that if you really know better and give in to McDonald's and the food industry anyway... Then csardiver is right... Otherwise be ready to fight for your health because they are against you, don't believe they are not...
Now it's up to you to eat wise and exercise!
So if I go to McD's or Wendy's or Jack or any other food establishment and get a salad with plain grilled chicken (no fries, no burger, etc), have I then given in to the 'establishment' and lost my soul in the process?!?!?
Imagine if you ordered a cheeseburger and fries!!!
mmm fries
When the US obesity rate reaches 90%, "Mmm Fries" will officially replace "E Pluribus Unum" on all of our currency...
ETA: we can air fry them if you want
4 -
SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »All our bodies are so different, the truth is no one really knows what works or how it works, but everyone who's read the latest article is an expert... (rolls eyes)
Our bodies are remarkably similar. We know quite a lot about what works and how it works for the important aspects.
Our behaviors are very different; however. Despite this simple fact many get lost obsessing on the insignificant issues and lose the larger picture. There is easy money to be made convincing people otherwise - 20 B in the US alone.
Not so, truth is we really have no idea...
Anything you can find a study for, low carb, cico, veganism, high protein, low fat, gluten free, organic, hiit, steady state... Whatever
I bet you can find a study that provides evidence to the contrary, and an army of people who believe the opposite...
I've found that many of today's know-it-alls, will claim something totally different when the next trend comes along
... only if your definition of "study" is extremely loose.
The one truth and constant is that large food manufacturers and the fast food industry doesn't give a damn about you...
I understand that their a business and responsible to their shareholders blah blah blah...
But that's exactly the point, they only care about the profit and not for your health
That is a sweeping generalization that I don't believe applies to every large food manufacturer or fast food company.
On an unrelated note - I've been totally craving a McGriddle the last couple of days!
No, you are completely wrong, and people do need to get this right. That they are responsible to shareholders first actually applies to every large food manufacturer and fast food company. In fact its written in their rules of corporate governance. Profit and interests of the shareholders is ALWAYS above "caring for your health". However, some may have good marketing departments which make it seem untrue to those uninformed possibly. And many have goals which can sometimes coincide with consumer health. But it is not the primary goal.
I'm actually not sure how this has to be explained to people still?
Yep, shareholders. And you know what's the best way to make money? Sell people what they've demonstrated they actually want.
When I took graduate-level marketing classes, they made it pretty clear that the formula is to figure out what people really, really want - not what they say they want, not what they think they ought to want.
Then you provide what the people (en masse) want, but you advertise it as being what they think they ought to want. Voila: Crispy chicken salad! Natural! With Newman's Own reduced-calorie dressing, aura of charitable generosity included!
It is not their job to attend to our well-being. They're not our mommy or daddy. It's our job to figure out what we want, and buy it, thus voting with our dollars for more of that.
If we wanted and bought organic gluten-free roasted brussels sprouts in environmentally-friendly single-serve shelf-stable packaging, they'd be falling all over themselves to sell them to us . . . better, cheaper, and faster.
*starts slow-clap6 -
Just to step out of the "big food" debate, which I don't really GAF about because I'm a grown up and can read labels and make choices for myself.
But who is blaming people for becoming overweight or obese? I don't see that. I see empathy and trying to empower people by making them realise that the self-righteous opinions are coming from those who want to label anything that comes wrapped in plastic or in a tub/box from a window as suddenly being devoid of any nutritional value.
THAT'S being judgemental. That's giving people with a mountain to climb Kilimanjaro instead of Ben Nevis.
I don't understand why those who are encouraging and sharing of their own successes and struggles and the ones being pious.6 -
You can argue that McDonald's (only my example) is trying to sell people what they want.... But I think we've reached a point where they are not so concerned about selling people what they want as much as they are trying to sell what McDonald's has to offer...
But the way marketers these days push anything is just appalling... I see a VW commercial the other day that told a story of an old woman who recently lost her husband who wanted to travel across country, so the family hops in their VW and sets off talking about how they wish the grandfather was there... Tears and all...
What in the world does someone losing their patriarch have to do with VW... I was just disgusted by the marketing and psychological warfare I felt waged against me for the sake of selling a freaking VW... They must think I'm pretty stupid to try and sell me a VW in a manner that has nothing to do with their vehicles...
I know that was a bit of topic but I had to get that out...
Back to McDonald's, now I'm not saying don't ever eat McDonald's again... But don't make McDonald's a habit, because they want you there everyday.5 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »Now I'm wondering if any roasted brussels sprouts contain gluten and, if so... why?
Some people might add bread crumbs.1 -
jessiferrrb wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »jessiferrrb wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »So don't give in this lunch or dinner to the marketer's and food engineers at fast food chains, their very profits are bet against your ability to free that super hero inside of you! Think about it, why do they have to make their frys so salty?
And remember that if you really know better and give in to McDonald's and the food industry anyway... Then csardiver is right... Otherwise be ready to fight for your health because they are against you, don't believe they are not...
Now it's up to you to eat wise and exercise!
So if I go to McD's or Wendy's or Jack or any other food establishment and get a salad with plain grilled chicken (no fries, no burger, etc), have I then given in to the 'establishment' and lost my soul in the process?!?!?
Imagine if you ordered a cheeseburger and fries!!!
mmm fries
When the US obesity rate reaches 90%, "Mmm Fries" will officially replace "E Pluribus Unum" on all of our currency...
ETA: we can air fry them if you want
That is the glorious part of MFP - half the people are scratching and clawing to eat at a deficit and the other half are gushing over all of the greasy, high calorie - high fat food they eat6 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »You can argue that McDonald's (only my example) is trying to sell people what they want.... But I think we've reached a point where they are not so concerned about selling people what they want as much as they are trying to sell what McDonald's has to offer...
But the way marketers these days push anything is just appalling... I see a VW commercial the other day that told a story of an old woman who recently lost her husband who wanted to travel across country, so the family hops in their VW and sets off talking about how they wish the grandfather was there... Tears and all...
What in the world does someone losing their patriarch have to do with VW... I was just disgusted by the marketing and psychological warfare I felt waged against me for the sake of selling a freaking VW... They must think I'm pretty stupid to try and sell me a VW in a manner that has nothing to do with their vehicles...
I know that was a bit of topic but I had to get that out...
Back to McDonald's, now I'm not saying don't ever eat McDonald's again... But don't make McDonald's a habit, because they want you there everyday.
See this is the bit I don't get. Don't eat at McDonald's every day because you'll probably have a hard time meeting your nutritional needs, sure. Don't make it a habit because that's what they want? Every seller wants you to buy their food. My local farm stand would prefer I get all my fruit and veggies there all the time (and often has samples available to show how delicious it is, which often leads me to buy more than i intended or need). Should I not make a habit of buying there because that's what they want?8 -
Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »The McD's on the Hawaiian offers spam for breakfast along with eggs and rice. They mostly definitely have their consumers in mind. And it was good!
The ones down South serve Grits for breakfast... So yummy.4 -
Bry_Lander wrote: »jessiferrrb wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »jessiferrrb wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »So don't give in this lunch or dinner to the marketer's and food engineers at fast food chains, their very profits are bet against your ability to free that super hero inside of you! Think about it, why do they have to make their frys so salty?
And remember that if you really know better and give in to McDonald's and the food industry anyway... Then csardiver is right... Otherwise be ready to fight for your health because they are against you, don't believe they are not...
Now it's up to you to eat wise and exercise!
So if I go to McD's or Wendy's or Jack or any other food establishment and get a salad with plain grilled chicken (no fries, no burger, etc), have I then given in to the 'establishment' and lost my soul in the process?!?!?
Imagine if you ordered a cheeseburger and fries!!!
mmm fries
When the US obesity rate reaches 90%, "Mmm Fries" will officially replace "E Pluribus Unum" on all of our currency...
ETA: we can air fry them if you want
That is the glorious part of MFP - half the people are scratching and clawing to eat at a deficit and the other half are gushing over all of the greasy, high calorie - high fat food they eat
The really fun part is that looking at the respective food diaries, the so-called "greasy high cal - high fat" folks don't eat that differently in practice in a lot of cases from the "oh so clean" . . . and sometimes even eat more nutritiously. I think the recently (semi-)converted can sometimes be the biggest proselytizers. No universals, of course.13 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »The McD's on the Hawaiian offers spam for breakfast along with eggs and rice. They mostly definitely have their consumers in mind. And it was good!
The ones down South serve Grits for breakfast... So yummy.
Where is this? I'm in NC, so maybe not south enough?0 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »The McD's on the Hawaiian offers spam for breakfast along with eggs and rice. They mostly definitely have their consumers in mind. And it was good!
The ones down South serve Grits for breakfast... So yummy.
Where is this? I'm in NC, so maybe not south enough?
When I lived in GA.1 -
Bry_Lander wrote: »jessiferrrb wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »jessiferrrb wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »So don't give in this lunch or dinner to the marketer's and food engineers at fast food chains, their very profits are bet against your ability to free that super hero inside of you! Think about it, why do they have to make their frys so salty?
And remember that if you really know better and give in to McDonald's and the food industry anyway... Then csardiver is right... Otherwise be ready to fight for your health because they are against you, don't believe they are not...
Now it's up to you to eat wise and exercise!
So if I go to McD's or Wendy's or Jack or any other food establishment and get a salad with plain grilled chicken (no fries, no burger, etc), have I then given in to the 'establishment' and lost my soul in the process?!?!?
Imagine if you ordered a cheeseburger and fries!!!
mmm fries
When the US obesity rate reaches 90%, "Mmm Fries" will officially replace "E Pluribus Unum" on all of our currency...
ETA: we can air fry them if you want
That is the glorious part of MFP - half the people are scratching and clawing to eat at a deficit and the other half are gushing over all of the greasy, high calorie - high fat food they eat
The really fun part is that looking at the respective food diaries, the so-called "greasy high cal - high fat" folks don't eat that differently in practice in a lot of cases from the "oh so clean" . . . and sometimes even eat more nutritiously. I think the recently (semi-)converted can sometimes be the biggest proselytizers. No universals, of course.
I don't think the "oh so clean" people really give a rat's about it it - this site has a lot of "oh so fat" people who probably can't fit 510 calories & 24g of fat from an order of large fries from McDonald's into a deficit oriented diet, so I've always found MFP an odd place to brag about eating these types of foods.8
This discussion has been closed.
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