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Keto diet = good or bad
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janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I'm hung up on this too. I know certain religions have some dietary restrictions, but I've never heard of having to embrace a religion in order to have a certain diet. Screams cultish to me.
I know it's a complete waste of time trying to make sense of one of these strange, pseudo-visionary, ramble-rants. (Who knows, it might even risk pulling one into some strange conspiracy-oriented, random-fact-blenderizing intellectual vortex . . . .)
But one interpretation that occurred to me, given the glyphosate point, is that if one were (say) Amish and subsistence farming in the old ways, one might somehow be better protected. Those folks (Amish specifically) do eat meat, though. I've known people who tried to subsistence farm as a solo act, but it's a tough go without the like-minded community.
In the vortex, I'm pretty sure consistency is optional.
Edited: Duplicated quote, missing word. Arrgh: Maybe the vortex grabbed me already?!?!5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I want a t-shirt saying I'm one of the Veggie People
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Well, 2016-2020 so yeah the vortex has youjanejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I'm hung up on this too. I know certain religions have some dietary restrictions, but I've never heard of having to embrace a religion in order to have a certain diet. Screams cultish to me.
I know it's a complete waste of time trying to make sense of one of these strange, pseudo-visionary, ramble-rants. (Who knows, it might even risk pulling one into some strange conspiracy-oriented, random-fact-blenderizing intellectual vortex . . . .)
But one interpretation that occurred to me, given the glyphosate point, is that if one were (say) Amish and subsistence farming in the old ways, one might somehow be better protected. Those folks (Amish specifically) do eat meat, though. I've known people who tried to subsistence farm as a solo act, but it's a tough go without the like-minded community.
In the vortex, I'm pretty sure consistency is optional.
Edited: Duplicated quote, missing word. Arrgh: Maybe the vortex grabbed me already?!?! I know you get the reference
On the top bold - I could not have stated it better if I had a month of Sundays to do so.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I want a t-shirt saying I'm one of the Veggie People
You have to post a pic if you get one LOL.
I...dunno, have to say it. I liked the keto menu when I did that for a few months, but that's all it was, was a menu to me. Same stuff I always ate minus other stuff I used to eat but didn't for a while. I don't see the cause for investing so much energy into arguing for it. Even if a medical necessity. The it's doing what the Doc says - and whoever does, I hope it works for you sincerely - but it's just food.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I want a t-shirt saying I'm one of the Veggie People
You have to post a pic if you get one LOL.
I...dunno, have to say it. I liked the keto menu when I did that for a few months, but that's all it was, was a menu to me. Same stuff I always ate minus other stuff I used to eat but didn't for a while. I don't see the cause for investing so much energy into arguing for it. Even if a medical necessity. The it's doing what the Doc says - and whoever does, I hope it works for you sincerely - but it's just food.
In my experience, the people who are the most invested into zealously advocating for a specific diet are those who feel they were misled or lied to by medical/nutritional professionals about what to eat in the past.
It's one thing to be like "Hey, keto helps control my appetite and makes it much easier to manage my weight. I also find that I am meeting my nutritional needs on it." But some people get to that point and go further, they conclude that dietary recommendations that encourage the consumption of fruit, vegetables, and whole grains were designed to deliberately mislead people into diets that would harm them, either to benefit food manufacturers or to help support certain segments of the agricultural industry. Once you've reached that point, where you think you've been lied to and you've now found *the way* humans are supposed to eat, you want to share it with others and you've more likely to attribute bad faith to anyone who doesn't fall into line.
It's not just keto (although we do seem to see it a lot with keto here), you can use this for just about any dietary style. Once you think you've been mislead, the path of virtue can seem to be the one that helps others recover from their "conditioning."8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I'm hung up on this too. I know certain religions have some dietary restrictions, but I've never heard of having to embrace a religion in order to have a certain diet. Screams cultish to me.
It's a line I've seen some people use to argue against the idea that the "blue zones" have anything to suggest about healthy dietary patterns, that it's not the diet that gives the benefit . . . it's something else that can't be replicated. Now I don't think anyone *is* arguing that it is exclusively the diet, people in the blue zones do seem to have clear patterns of staying active and being socially connected. Some of the blue zones are marked by certain religious traditions. I don't think that means we can conclude that diet has nothing to do with it. I certainly disagree that we should use that to conclude that there is only one healthful human diet and it's keto.
Concluding that we shouldn't eat more plants because we don't want to convert to being a Seventh Day Adventist . . . . just ridiculous.
Thanks for expanding that a bit for me. I agree it's ridiculous and I've heard that first bold cited for a rather vast number of arguments, most of which usually fall flat when dissected.
The "It can't be replicated" argument basically shields the person making the claims from any objective accountability, and can open the door to some really unhealthy ideas. Anecdotal, but I've seen a person go down a road like that. No thank you.
Yeah, also, if you read the researchers opinions who worked on the Blue Zones projects, they believe (and they are very clear that they can't prove exactly what makes the most difference) that what all the Blue Zones have in common are a whole foods mostly plants diet, a high level of activity, strong social and family ties, and a general sense that they still have a purpose in their later years. Nothing fancy.
Also also, the Loma Linda Adventists are probably the one Blue Zone that Americans realistically CAN replicate in their own lives. They aren't living in some remote village away from modern technology. They live in Loma Linda California, and many work in the Adventist Health System, which is a large healthcare/hospital system.5 -
nationalvillage3215 wrote: »For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.
May be of interest
https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/0 -
Amish people don't avoid glyphosate: https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/05/23/amish-use-gmos-pesticides-yet-cancer-rates-remain-low/janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I'm hung up on this too. I know certain religions have some dietary restrictions, but I've never heard of having to embrace a religion in order to have a certain diet. Screams cultish to me.
I know it's a complete waste of time trying to make sense of one of these strange, pseudo-visionary, ramble-rants. (Who knows, it might even risk pulling one into some strange conspiracy-oriented, random-fact-blenderizing intellectual vortex . . . .)
But one interpretation that occurred to me, given the glyphosate point, is that if one were (say) Amish and subsistence farming in the old ways, one might somehow be better protected. Those folks (Amish specifically) do eat meat, though. I've known people who tried to subsistence farm as a solo act, but it's a tough go without the like-minded community.
In the vortex, I'm pretty sure consistency is optional.
Edited: Duplicated quote, missing word. Arrgh: Maybe the vortex grabbed me already?!?!
I'm not sure if I would describe Amish as subsistence farmers.
The every other day stories of glyphosate found in X has more to do with the fact that we can detect molecules in parts per billion than it has to do with glyphosate saturating the planet. People have a similar misunderstanding about the fact that we can identify the radiation from Fukushima - it is because we can tell signatures on isotopes used at the particular reactor so well, despite a peeled banana letting off more sieverts of radiation than we detect. That we can detect things tends speaks to the sophistication of our instrumentation, not to how permeated our environment is.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
Blue Zone in the USA is associated with one religion. Spiritually does not have to be a factor at all. Access to blue zone WOE's is out of the physical and financial reach of some. Read up on inter city food choices in walking distance.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I want a t-shirt saying I'm one of the Veggie People
You have to post a pic if you get one LOL.
I...dunno, have to say it. I liked the keto menu when I did that for a few months, but that's all it was, was a menu to me. Same stuff I always ate minus other stuff I used to eat but didn't for a while. I don't see the cause for investing so much energy into arguing for it. Even if a medical necessity. The it's doing what the Doc says - and whoever does, I hope it works for you sincerely - but it's just food.
In my experience, the people who are the most invested into zealously advocating for a specific diet are those who feel they were misled or lied to by medical/nutritional professionals about what to eat in the past.
It's one thing to be like "Hey, keto helps control my appetite and makes it much easier to manage my weight. I also find that I am meeting my nutritional needs on it." But some people get to that point and go further, they conclude that dietary recommendations that encourage the consumption of fruit, vegetables, and whole grains were designed to deliberately mislead people into diets that would harm them, either to benefit food manufacturers or to help support certain segments of the agricultural industry. Once you've reached that point, where you think you've been lied to and you've now found *the way* humans are supposed to eat, you want to share it with others and you've more likely to attribute bad faith to anyone who doesn't fall into line.
It's not just keto (although we do seem to see it a lot with keto here), you can use this for just about any dietary style. Once you think you've been mislead, the path of virtue can seem to be the one that helps others recover from their "conditioning."
That makes perfect sense to me, but then, haven't pretty much all of us been lied to at one point or another? I guess we pursue and defend what seems the greatest benefit.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I'm hung up on this too. I know certain religions have some dietary restrictions, but I've never heard of having to embrace a religion in order to have a certain diet. Screams cultish to me.
It's a line I've seen some people use to argue against the idea that the "blue zones" have anything to suggest about healthy dietary patterns, that it's not the diet that gives the benefit . . . it's something else that can't be replicated. Now I don't think anyone *is* arguing that it is exclusively the diet, people in the blue zones do seem to have clear patterns of staying active and being socially connected. Some of the blue zones are marked by certain religious traditions. I don't think that means we can conclude that diet has nothing to do with it. I certainly disagree that we should use that to conclude that there is only one healthful human diet and it's keto.
Concluding that we shouldn't eat more plants because we don't want to convert to being a Seventh Day Adventist . . . . just ridiculous.
Thanks for expanding that a bit for me. I agree it's ridiculous and I've heard that first bold cited for a rather vast number of arguments, most of which usually fall flat when dissected.
The "It can't be replicated" argument basically shields the person making the claims from any objective accountability, and can open the door to some really unhealthy ideas. Anecdotal, but I've seen a person go down a road like that. No thank you.
Yeah, also, if you read the researchers opinions who worked on the Blue Zones projects, they believe (and they are very clear that they can't prove exactly what makes the most difference) that what all the Blue Zones have in common are a whole foods mostly plants diet, a high level of activity, strong social and family ties, and a general sense that they still have a purpose in their later years. Nothing fancy.
Also also, the Loma Linda Adventists are probably the one Blue Zone that Americans realistically CAN replicate in their own lives. They aren't living in some remote village away from modern technology. They live in Loma Linda California, and many work in the Adventist Health System, which is a large healthcare/hospital system.
I admit I am laregly ignorant about the Blue Zones projects. What you're describing just sounds like a healthy lifestyle to me, with the high plant diet of course...thanks for the tips on them, more reading for me
1 -
I couldn’t care less if there is a study proving any one thing or another.
I tried keto and I liked it. It changed my behavior regarding food and changed my level of hunger and satiety and I even felt better and more energy pretty much immediately. My blood work is stellar, I’ve reduced meds for ADHD and eliminated all of my IBS symptoms once I eventually began a carnivore diet after my first year of keto.
I have lost weight to my current weight in the past and spent my entire adult life constantly swinging up and down 30 pounds. I could never maintain the weight loss and could only lose the weight if I worked out and spent a lot of time being hungry.
At the same weight as I had previously achieved, I am 2 pant sizes smaller now and have maintained this size without effort for 4 years now simply by remaining keto, and now carnivore. I eat until I’m satisfied and I do not work out and I do not have to cycle in and out of dieting to maintain the weight. I do not have to spend time being hungry in order to not overeat. I simply do not overeat without trying.
I have never maintained a consistent weight for 4 years ever before and I certainly didn’t expect to find this kind of stability going into my 40’s.
So I don’t care what any study says or doesn’t say. I don’t care about yours or anyone’s belief regarding calories or hormones.
All I care about is my results and how I’m doing and that’s damn good!6 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »nationalvillage3215 wrote: »For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.
May be of interest
https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/
I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).
And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto
12 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
Blue Zone in the USA is associated with one religion. Spiritually does not have to be a factor at all. Access to blue zone WOE's is out of the physical and financial reach of some. Read up on inter city food choices in walking distance.
Yes, but when you look at what they have in common with other "blue zones," you realize that they don't share that same religion. To quote @kimny72 "what all the Blue Zones have in common are a whole foods mostly plants diet, a high level of activity, strong social and family ties, and a general sense that they still have a purpose in their later years."
To focus on the religion doesn't really make sense.
If you're unfortunate enough to not have access to these, I have empathy for you and know that I do support public and private efforts to bring these options within reach for more Americans. But I'm not sure how relevant that is to the conversation. How many people in this thread truly don't have the ability to at least make some changes to bring their lifestyle more in line with that seen in the "blue zones"? And if you're in an inner city without access to food choices (a situation that recent research suggests may have been over-dramatized), is keto really a more realistic option?
I don't want to act like our society is perfect, but it's weird when people use inner city food deserts as a way to deflect from things *they* could be doing personally. Are you in an inner city without a car, Gale? Are you food insecure?8 -
I'd be afraid to live with such an epistemology.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I couldn’t care less if there is a study proving any one thing or another.
I tried keto and I liked it. It changed my behavior regarding food and changed my level of hunger and satiety and I even felt better and more energy pretty much immediately. My blood work is stellar, I’ve reduced meds for ADHD and eliminated all of my IBS symptoms once I eventually began a carnivore diet after my first year of keto.
I have lost weight to my current weight in the past and spent my entire adult life constantly swinging up and down 30 pounds. I could never maintain the weight loss and could only lose the weight if I worked out and spent a lot of time being hungry.
At the same weight as I had previously achieved, I am 2 pant sizes smaller now and have maintained this size without effort for 4 years now simply by remaining keto, and now carnivore. I eat until I’m satisfied and I do not work out and I do not have to cycle in and out of dieting to maintain the weight. I do not have to spend time being hungry in order to not overeat. I simply do not overeat without trying.
I have never maintained a consistent weight for 4 years ever before and I certainly didn’t expect to find this kind of stability going into my 40’s.
So I don’t care what any study says or doesn’t say. I don’t care about yours or anyone’s belief regarding calories or hormones.
All I care about is my results and how I’m doing and that’s damn good!8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I'm hung up on this too. I know certain religions have some dietary restrictions, but I've never heard of having to embrace a religion in order to have a certain diet. Screams cultish to me.
It's a line I've seen some people use to argue against the idea that the "blue zones" have anything to suggest about healthy dietary patterns, that it's not the diet that gives the benefit . . . it's something else that can't be replicated. Now I don't think anyone *is* arguing that it is exclusively the diet, people in the blue zones do seem to have clear patterns of staying active and being socially connected. Some of the blue zones are marked by certain religious traditions. I don't think that means we can conclude that diet has nothing to do with it. I certainly disagree that we should use that to conclude that there is only one healthful human diet and it's keto.
Concluding that we shouldn't eat more plants because we don't want to convert to being a Seventh Day Adventist . . . . just ridiculous.
Thanks for expanding that a bit for me. I agree it's ridiculous and I've heard that first bold cited for a rather vast number of arguments, most of which usually fall flat when dissected.
The "It can't be replicated" argument basically shields the person making the claims from any objective accountability, and can open the door to some really unhealthy ideas. Anecdotal, but I've seen a person go down a road like that. No thank you.
Yeah, also, if you read the researchers opinions who worked on the Blue Zones projects, they believe (and they are very clear that they can't prove exactly what makes the most difference) that what all the Blue Zones have in common are a whole foods mostly plants diet, a high level of activity, strong social and family ties, and a general sense that they still have a purpose in their later years. Nothing fancy.
Also also, the Loma Linda Adventists are probably the one Blue Zone that Americans realistically CAN replicate in their own lives. They aren't living in some remote village away from modern technology. They live in Loma Linda California, and many work in the Adventist Health System, which is a large healthcare/hospital system.
I admit I am laregly ignorant about the Blue Zones projects. What you're describing just sounds like a healthy lifestyle to me, with the high plant diet of course...thanks for the tips on them, more reading for me
The Blue Zones book is a good read. They include stories and interviews with individual centenarians in each of the zones. It would dovetail nicely with your thread about getting "old" actually
Their stories made me feel like a lazy *kitten*, definitely motivational! 2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
Blue Zone in the USA is associated with one religion. Spiritually does not have to be a factor at all. Access to blue zone WOE's is out of the physical and financial reach of some. Read up on inter city food choices in walking distance.
Yes, but when you look at what they have in common with other "blue zones," you realize that they don't share that same religion. To quote @kimny72 "what all the Blue Zones have in common are a whole foods mostly plants diet, a high level of activity, strong social and family ties, and a general sense that they still have a purpose in their later years."
To focus on the religion doesn't really make sense.
If you're unfortunate enough to not have access to these, I have empathy for you and know that I do support public and private efforts to bring these options within reach for more Americans. But I'm not sure how relevant that is to the conversation. How many people in this thread truly don't have the ability to at least make some changes to bring their lifestyle more in line with that seen in the "blue zones"? And if you're in an inner city without access to food choices (a situation that recent research suggests may have been over-dramatized), is keto really a more realistic option?
I don't want to act like our society is perfect, but it's weird when people use inner city food deserts as a way to deflect from things *they* could be doing personally. Are you in an inner city without a car, Gale? Are you food insecure?
And Blue Zones food staples are cheap. Things like beans, lentils, grains, veggies (frozen and canned are really cheap) are the inexpensive options at stores. Heck, I can buy all sorts of Blue Zone compliant foods at Dollar Tree. Or my local scratch and dent discount store.
Compare that to a diet high in meat and fats. Cost wise it's going to be much cheaper to eat Blue Zones style vs keto.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I want a t-shirt saying I'm one of the Veggie People
You have to post a pic if you get one LOL.
I...dunno, have to say it. I liked the keto menu when I did that for a few months, but that's all it was, was a menu to me. Same stuff I always ate minus other stuff I used to eat but didn't for a while. I don't see the cause for investing so much energy into arguing for it. Even if a medical necessity. The it's doing what the Doc says - and whoever does, I hope it works for you sincerely - but it's just food.
In my experience, the people who are the most invested into zealously advocating for a specific diet are those who feel they were misled or lied to by medical/nutritional professionals about what to eat in the past.
It's one thing to be like "Hey, keto helps control my appetite and makes it much easier to manage my weight. I also find that I am meeting my nutritional needs on it." But some people get to that point and go further, they conclude that dietary recommendations that encourage the consumption of fruit, vegetables, and whole grains were designed to deliberately mislead people into diets that would harm them, either to benefit food manufacturers or to help support certain segments of the agricultural industry. Once you've reached that point, where you think you've been lied to and you've now found *the way* humans are supposed to eat, you want to share it with others and you've more likely to attribute bad faith to anyone who doesn't fall into line.
It's not just keto (although we do seem to see it a lot with keto here), you can use this for just about any dietary style. Once you think you've been mislead, the path of virtue can seem to be the one that helps others recover from their "conditioning."
That makes perfect sense to me, but then, haven't pretty much all of us been lied to at one point or another? I guess we pursue and defend what seems the greatest benefit.
Increasingly, I'm thinking that certain people are inclined to a suspicious, conspiracy-oriented view of the world (It's not particularly MFP that's leading me to that idea, BTW - more people I know IRL).
At the on-ramp, it seems to look like a tendency to assume in many circumstances that someone(s) is (are) trying to put something over on them, or to assume that no matter what others do/say, it's somehow intended to manipulate that person: New ideas that overturn old ones are interpreted in that way - someone nefariously tried to hide an important secret. (May not matter if the old ideas were lies or simple misunderstandings.)
At later stages, the idea that some novel idea - some bit of 'knowledge' (true or false) - is actively being suppressed by powerful others becomes a selling point for that new idea. Getting on board with the "suppressed" idea is then a badge of insight, insiderhood, being in the know, being powerful against the vast conspiracy.
Correctly or incorrectly, I interpreted Jane's comment somewhat in that light. Certainly, some people become advocates for non-paranoid reasons, even to the point of overselling their own strategies . . . but I think sometimes there is that suspicious habit of mind at work.3 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I couldn’t care less if there is a study proving any one thing or another.
I tried keto and I liked it. It changed my behavior regarding food and changed my level of hunger and satiety and I even felt better and more energy pretty much immediately. My blood work is stellar, I’ve reduced meds for ADHD and eliminated all of my IBS symptoms once I eventually began a carnivore diet after my first year of keto.
I have lost weight to my current weight in the past and spent my entire adult life constantly swinging up and down 30 pounds. I could never maintain the weight loss and could only lose the weight if I worked out and spent a lot of time being hungry.
At the same weight as I had previously achieved, I am 2 pant sizes smaller now and have maintained this size without effort for 4 years now simply by remaining keto, and now carnivore. I eat until I’m satisfied and I do not work out and I do not have to cycle in and out of dieting to maintain the weight. I do not have to spend time being hungry in order to not overeat. I simply do not overeat without trying.
I have never maintained a consistent weight for 4 years ever before and I certainly didn’t expect to find this kind of stability going into my 40’s.
So I don’t care what any study says or doesn’t say. I don’t care about yours or anyone’s belief regarding calories or hormones.
All I care about is my results and how I’m doing and that’s damn good!
And that's awesome, assuming you don't now insist that keto is better and healthier for everyone, just because it is better and healthier for you. What you did is really what a lot of us are trying to say - you kept trying until you found the diet that was best for YOU, and you're still tweaking and evolving based on your own personal results. Congrats on maintenance BTW :drinker:9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »If the veggie people are talking about "Huge Global Studies" about Keto then someone was perhaps asleep while the minds of the masses were thinking about the different WOE's out there today. I know on Keto I am moving to a more plant based way of eating than ever. If one reads Missing Microbes by Martin J. Blaser, MD she will learn many diseases can be associated mass produced meats even before discussing saturated fats as being good, bad or indifferent to longevity. On the other hand processed carbs could short life as well due to chemicals added at the farm and later. Physical death is coming one way or another some say. I like to learn from the Blue Zones but for many in the USA that way of life is a pipe dream often unless one fully embraces a religious group with that lifestyle.
https://bluezones.com/2018/09/news-study-finds-low-carb-or-keto-diets-could-lead-to-shorter-lifespan/
Alarming Levels of Glyphosate Found in Popular American Foods
While this is not a recent research there is a new one about what is in wine and beers causing health concerns. Food supplies today contain more than just carbs, protein and fats it seems.
https://ecowatch.com/monsanto-glyphosate-cheerios-2093130379.html
".....According to the report, the herbicide residues were found in cookies, crackers, popular cold cereals and chips commonly consumed by children and adults....."
Who are the "veggie people"? I'm having trouble following what exactly you mean by the "minds of the masses."
I do know that some people doing keto report that they are eating more vegetables than they did before. I would say that these people typically were not eating a lot of vegetables prior to going keto. While you may be eating more plants than you did before, it's still usually not what we would describe as a vegetable-rich diet.
Why do you think the "blue zones" are a pipe dream unless one also embraces religion? Do you not think it's possible that all of us -- regardless of where we are spiritually -- can adapt the concepts of social connectedness, mindfulness, and living with purpose to fit our lives?
I want a t-shirt saying I'm one of the Veggie People
You have to post a pic if you get one LOL.
I...dunno, have to say it. I liked the keto menu when I did that for a few months, but that's all it was, was a menu to me. Same stuff I always ate minus other stuff I used to eat but didn't for a while. I don't see the cause for investing so much energy into arguing for it. Even if a medical necessity. The it's doing what the Doc says - and whoever does, I hope it works for you sincerely - but it's just food.
In my experience, the people who are the most invested into zealously advocating for a specific diet are those who feel they were misled or lied to by medical/nutritional professionals about what to eat in the past.
It's one thing to be like "Hey, keto helps control my appetite and makes it much easier to manage my weight. I also find that I am meeting my nutritional needs on it." But some people get to that point and go further, they conclude that dietary recommendations that encourage the consumption of fruit, vegetables, and whole grains were designed to deliberately mislead people into diets that would harm them, either to benefit food manufacturers or to help support certain segments of the agricultural industry. Once you've reached that point, where you think you've been lied to and you've now found *the way* humans are supposed to eat, you want to share it with others and you've more likely to attribute bad faith to anyone who doesn't fall into line.
It's not just keto (although we do seem to see it a lot with keto here), you can use this for just about any dietary style. Once you think you've been mislead, the path of virtue can seem to be the one that helps others recover from their "conditioning."
That makes perfect sense to me, but then, haven't pretty much all of us been lied to at one point or another? I guess we pursue and defend what seems the greatest benefit.
Increasingly, I'm thinking that certain people are inclined to a suspicious, conspiracy-oriented view of the world (It's not particularly MFP that's leading me to that idea, BTW - more people I know IRL).
At the on-ramp, it seems to look like a tendency to assume in many circumstances that someone(s) is (are) trying to put something over on them, or to assume that no matter what others do/say, it's somehow intended to manipulate that person: New ideas that overturn old ones are interpreted in that way - someone nefariously tried to hide an important secret. (May not matter if the old ideas were lies or simple misunderstandings.)
At later stages, the idea that some novel idea - some bit of 'knowledge' (true or false) - is actively being suppressed by powerful others becomes a selling point for that new idea. Getting on board with the "suppressed" idea is then a badge of insight, insiderhood, being in the know, being powerful against the vast conspiracy.
Correctly or incorrectly, I interpreted Jane's comment somewhat in that light. Certainly, some people become advocates for non-paranoid reasons, even to the point of overselling their own strategies . . . but I think sometimes there is that suspicious habit of mind at work.
Oh I was agreeing with her and just voicing my own thought along the lines of "We've all heard lies, but all don't respond with an ardent, sometimes unreasonable defense of the new cause". After reading my reply to her again, that was clear absolutely no where lol. Sorry about the confusion.
Without shifting the conversation wildly off topic, I believe the mindset you're so eloquently describing is prevalent, almost pervasive throughout society today. Knowledge is power in some circles, money in others, and both in still others, and those who do not have the knowledge are willing to buy it, or a version of it.
In short, I completely agree with you - and I'll also be more careful to type out complete thoughts in the future (What do you mean your mind reader isn't working?!) 1
This discussion has been closed.
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