Keto diet = good or bad

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

magnusthenerd wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

I couldn’t care less if there is a study proving any one thing or another.
I tried keto and I liked it. It changed my behavior regarding food and changed my level of hunger and satiety and I even felt better and more energy pretty much immediately. My blood work is stellar, I’ve reduced meds for ADHD and eliminated all of my IBS symptoms once I eventually began a carnivore diet after my first year of keto.
I have lost weight to my current weight in the past and spent my entire adult life constantly swinging up and down 30 pounds. I could never maintain the weight loss and could only lose the weight if I worked out and spent a lot of time being hungry.
At the same weight as I had previously achieved, I am 2 pant sizes smaller now and have maintained this size without effort for 4 years now simply by remaining keto, and now carnivore. I eat until I’m satisfied and I do not work out and I do not have to cycle in and out of dieting to maintain the weight. I do not have to spend time being hungry in order to not overeat. I simply do not overeat without trying.
I have never maintained a consistent weight for 4 years ever before and I certainly didn’t expect to find this kind of stability going into my 40’s.
So I don’t care what any study says or doesn’t say. I don’t care about yours or anyone’s belief regarding calories or hormones.
All I care about is my results and how I’m doing and that’s damn good!

I'd be afraid to live with such an epistemology.

I would be afraid to live being so faithful to others opinions rather than see for myself what gives me my best health.
Sad

You seem to be confused. Studies, meta analyses and scholarly papers in reputable journals are not opinions. There are evidence.

They are never biased, misprepresented or bought and paid for either I suppose?
Unfortunately, many are indeed nothing more than opinion with a bunch of misleading data carefully crafted to appear to support said opinion.
In any given reputable journal you can find a study to support both sides of the same argument. Are we to believe both are 100% accurate?
Please!

Please find me the journal article that says eating magma would be good for your health...

mmapags wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

magnusthenerd wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

I couldn’t care less if there is a study proving any one thing or another.
I tried keto and I liked it. It changed my behavior regarding food and changed my level of hunger and satiety and I even felt better and more energy pretty much immediately. My blood work is stellar, I’ve reduced meds for ADHD and eliminated all of my IBS symptoms once I eventually began a carnivore diet after my first year of keto.
I have lost weight to my current weight in the past and spent my entire adult life constantly swinging up and down 30 pounds. I could never maintain the weight loss and could only lose the weight if I worked out and spent a lot of time being hungry.
At the same weight as I had previously achieved, I am 2 pant sizes smaller now and have maintained this size without effort for 4 years now simply by remaining keto, and now carnivore. I eat until I’m satisfied and I do not work out and I do not have to cycle in and out of dieting to maintain the weight. I do not have to spend time being hungry in order to not overeat. I simply do not overeat without trying.
I have never maintained a consistent weight for 4 years ever before and I certainly didn’t expect to find this kind of stability going into my 40’s.
So I don’t care what any study says or doesn’t say. I don’t care about yours or anyone’s belief regarding calories or hormones.
All I care about is my results and how I’m doing and that’s damn good!

I'd be afraid to live with such an epistemology.

I would be afraid to live being so faithful to others opinions rather than see for myself what gives me my best health.
Sad

You seem to be confused. Studies, meta analyses and scholarly papers in reputable journals are not opinions. There are evidence.

They are never biased, misprepresented or bought and paid for either I suppose?
Unfortunately, many are indeed nothing more than opinion with a bunch of misleading data carefully crafted to appear to support said opinion.
In any given reputable journal you can find a study to support both sides of the same argument. Are we to believe both are 100% accurate?
Please!

Well that's where learning to vet your sources and a little critical thinking comes in. But hey, if you'd rather rely on your personal experiments, you go right ahead. Me? I'm going to look for evidence and formulate my strategies based on that.

Well, I wouldn’t exactly say I’m experimenting in ways that don’t show efficacy already.
There are many studies to show many things. Keto has proven to be beneficial for me which can also be found to be true in many resources. So it’s not like I randomly chose an arsenic diet or something.
Let’s not be stupid.
I’m not someone saying keto is best for all. I’m someone saying it is a perfectly valid option. Do what you want.
No need to try and minimize someone else’s experience just because it differs from yours. I couldn’t care less how anyone else eats but if someone tells me their choice is to try keto, I will help them in any way they might need me to. There’s no reason for me or anyone to try to convince them they don’t need to try it or shouldn’t try it. Let them make up their own mind. Why ridicule it?

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

nationalvillage3215 wrote: »

For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.

May be of interest

https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/

I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).

And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto

They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.

I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.

It’s nice to have many options based upon your goals.
Those “internet doctors” have real offices where they see patients in person as well. They are actually running a long term study right now. The internet option brings their expertise to a much larger population. It’s a choice for anyone to use their service.
Sad that a team of doctors doing what has been thought to be impossible, gets reduced to being called “internet doctors” just because they make their services more widely available.
I guess you think it’s better for them to stay only minimally available for some reason? That’s weird.

But why do these internet doctors need to do this? For altruistic reasons? Or to make a lot money? They are in it for the money. Honestly

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

I’m not someone saying keto is best for all. I’m someone saying it is a perfectly valid option. Do what you want.

From my reading of the thread, there have been basically two main positions:

(1) keto is not best for all, but it's a perfectly valid option (I think this is the position of the vast majority of people who don't currently do keto, and some of those who do keto); and

(2) keto is inherently superior.

No one is really arguing that keto is not a valid option.

Also, no one is suggestion OP shouldn't do keto if she likes it. OP hasn't really been participating after starting this thread in the Debate section and asking the title question (i.e., asking for a discussion of the pros and cons of keto from the perspective of the different posters).

L1zardQueen wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

nationalvillage3215 wrote: »

For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.

May be of interest

https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/

I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).

And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto

They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.

I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.

It’s nice to have many options based upon your goals.
Those “internet doctors” have real offices where they see patients in person as well. They are actually running a long term study right now. The internet option brings their expertise to a much larger population. It’s a choice for anyone to use their service.
Sad that a team of doctors doing what has been thought to be impossible, gets reduced to being called “internet doctors” just because they make their services more widely available.
I guess you think it’s better for them to stay only minimally available for some reason? That’s weird.

But why do these internet doctors need to do this? For altruistic reasons? Or to make a lot money? They are in it for the money. Honestly

Low carb support isn't widely offered from "brick and mortar doctors" is the reason. Or do you think these patients never went to their primary doctor for treatment and just stumbled upon their website? There's no doubt they're making (or are going to make) shedloads of money but their patients aren't being harmed and many are getting better than expected outcomes.

Hard to find fault with that.

A quick post regarding an exciting study that dropped today in the release of Virta Health's one year data on the impact their intensive lifestyle counselling, coupled with their ketotic diet, had on patients with type 2 diabetes.

The results were impressive.

Of the 262 patients who started the year long study, 83% finished, and of those their metabolic biomarkers and weight improved dramatically. On average their hemoglobin A1C (a long term measure of blood sugar) dropped from 7.6 to 6.3, type 2 diabetes medications other than metfromin dropped from 56.9% to 29.7%, and insulin was reduced or eliminated in 94% of subjects who started out on insulin, while sulfonylureas were eliminated entirely. Weight dropped an average of 30lbs. Insulin resistance as measured by HOMA-IR dropped by 55%, hs-CRP by 39%, and triglycerides by 24%. Though LDL did rise by 10%, HDL rose by 18% and apolipoprotein B was unchanged.

All this to say that if you have type 2 diabetes, and you're motivated to make lifestyle changes, Virta health's program definitely appears to be worth considering.

http://www.weightymatters.ca/2018/02/motivated-to-change-your-lifestyle-and.html

@lleeann2001 that quoted study weightymatters.ca/2018/02/motivated-to-change-your-lifestyle-and.html was relative long term compared to many.

While I did not do Keto to lose weight I was highly motivated to change my lifestyle because it had become clear to my mind that my time was running out because of the rate of my mobility and general health decline; I had moved to heavy coconut oil usage before the hunch hit me to cut out foods containing added sugars and or any form of any grain which by default tilted me in the Keto direction without forethought.

Would I have done Keto if it had been premeditated I will never know.

Dr. Peter Attia's own personal keto experiences was my first info on its pros and cons. Because my pain started dropping like a rock a few weeks in doing Keto was a no-brainer in my case back in Oct 2014 and the reason I am still doing Keto in a laid back stress free without much thought kind of way today.

In my case I have not found anything bad so I call Keto a good way to eat based on my n=1 4.5 year Keto trial. It is good to see studies like this especially if one is new at this WOE in light of all the misleading to false info about keto from professional healthcare resources that could or should know better but that is changing for the better quickly. The medical community is seeing patients addressing major health issues with Keto while telling patients it cannot be done with Keto.

Doctors are highly trained and when they see in their face Keto successes over and over they know evidence based results when they see it. Recently I was talking with a person that was stressed over high blood glucose, high triglycerides and low HDL levels that has seen my huge health gains over the years from Keto. He asked if I thought keto would help him. I said I only know what it has done for me but that some of the keto side effects in my case was fixing all three of his issue but he could to is own n=1 keto study to know what it would do for his serious health issues. His wife had been talking about going keto for a long time and decided to finally make it happen.

A couple months later his FBG was down by over 250 points with triglycerides dropping and HDL climbing. His MD wanted to know how he recovered that fast and he said Keto and the wife showed him all the logging of food, weight and meter readings. That is one more MD that now knows Keto can be good for life threatening health issues based on written logs, his exam and the lab reports.

One keto side effect in my case is reading another book by an MD or PhD every couple weeks to better understand why Keto can bring such amazing health recovers if one is motivated to live as long and as healthy as possible.

L1zardQueen wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

nationalvillage3215 wrote: »

For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.

May be of interest

https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/

I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).

And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto

They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.

I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.

It’s nice to have many options based upon your goals.
Those “internet doctors” have real offices where they see patients in person as well. They are actually running a long term study right now. The internet option brings their expertise to a much larger population. It’s a choice for anyone to use their service.
Sad that a team of doctors doing what has been thought to be impossible, gets reduced to being called “internet doctors” just because they make their services more widely available.
I guess you think it’s better for them to stay only minimally available for some reason? That’s weird.

But why do these internet doctors need to do this? For altruistic reasons? Or to make a lot money? They are in it for the money. Honestly

I find it funny you don’t question the motivations of the people that buy the service. The 60% of them that are reversing their diabetes by following the guidance the service provides. It’s information that is readily available by all of the same doctors in their podcast interviews, websites, Ted talks, blogs and by reading their published papers. A person, and many do, can apply the same lifestyle changes on their own from the free information these same doctors provide but plenty of people are overwhelmed and don’t fully know how to start or more than likely, don’t have the support of a knowledgeable, local doctor to help them along the way.
This service exists because of need. It should be commended because they are literally doing what has been thought to be impossible. Reversing diabetes at a rate of 60% in one year.
You ask why these doctors do it? I don’t know each of their specific motives but I don’t think it’s solely money driven. There’s too much free information on that very website that you never need to pay a dime for to suggest they’re greedy. It’s full of tips, recipes and resources a person can use to live a low carb life without a cost at all. Then they publish their study progress and tell exactly what they are doing to achieve the results they are. I think that pretty much clears greed as a motivator.
There are thousands of other services, programs, websites designed as a membership or for pay to guide people choosing a multitude of dietary options. That’s because people often need help making positive, long term change no matter what their focus or dietary choice is.
Groups like this one and a million others are available for free and prove to be very helpful for many people. Some people need more help than this and that’s ok.

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

L1zardQueen wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

nationalvillage3215 wrote: »

For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.

May be of interest

https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/

I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).

And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto

They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.

I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.

It’s nice to have many options based upon your goals.
Those “internet doctors” have real offices where they see patients in person as well. They are actually running a long term study right now. The internet option brings their expertise to a much larger population. It’s a choice for anyone to use their service.
Sad that a team of doctors doing what has been thought to be impossible, gets reduced to being called “internet doctors” just because they make their services more widely available.
I guess you think it’s better for them to stay only minimally available for some reason? That’s weird.

But why do these internet doctors need to do this? For altruistic reasons? Or to make a lot money? They are in it for the money. Honestly

Low carb support isn't widely offered from "brick and mortar doctors" is the reason. Or do you think these patients never went to their primary doctor for treatment and just stumbled upon their website? There's no doubt they're making (or are going to make) shedloads of money but their patients aren't being harmed and many are getting better than expected outcomes.

Hard to find fault with that.

A quick post regarding an exciting study that dropped today in the release of Virta Health's one year data on the impact their intensive lifestyle counselling, coupled with their ketotic diet, had on patients with type 2 diabetes.

The results were impressive.

Of the 262 patients who started the year long study, 83% finished, and of those their metabolic biomarkers and weight improved dramatically. On average their hemoglobin A1C (a long term measure of blood sugar) dropped from 7.6 to 6.3, type 2 diabetes medications other than metfromin dropped from 56.9% to 29.7%, and insulin was reduced or eliminated in 94% of subjects who started out on insulin, while sulfonylureas were eliminated entirely. Weight dropped an average of 30lbs. Insulin resistance as measured by HOMA-IR dropped by 55%, hs-CRP by 39%, and triglycerides by 24%. Though LDL did rise by 10%, HDL rose by 18% and apolipoprotein B was unchanged.

All this to say that if you have type 2 diabetes, and you're motivated to make lifestyle changes, Virta health's program definitely appears to be worth considering.

http://www.weightymatters.ca/2018/02/motivated-to-change-your-lifestyle-and.html

Surely you realize the selection bias in using a population that can afford a $200 per month medical consultancy, right? That's not even when considering the drop out rate that gets excluded from the study. If you want to be wealthy and healthy, the smart thing to do is to have picked your parents carefully!
Which would probably be why their study has no control group - instead just compared to general dieting populations. Also probably why their study is published in a low quality journal.
To say their program is worth considering if you're motivated to make a lifestyle change is hardly a recommendation - it seems the motivated to make a lifestyle change is more explanatory than the program itself. Motivation is usually a good thing, but motivated reasoning is a poor basis for discovering truth.

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

L1zardQueen wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

nationalvillage3215 wrote: »

For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.

May be of interest

https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/

I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).

And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto

They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.

I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.

It’s nice to have many options based upon your goals.
Those “internet doctors” have real offices where they see patients in person as well. They are actually running a long term study right now. The internet option brings their expertise to a much larger population. It’s a choice for anyone to use their service.
Sad that a team of doctors doing what has been thought to be impossible, gets reduced to being called “internet doctors” just because they make their services more widely available.
I guess you think it’s better for them to stay only minimally available for some reason? That’s weird.

But why do these internet doctors need to do this? For altruistic reasons? Or to make a lot money? They are in it for the money. Honestly

I find it funny you don’t question the motivations of the people that buy the service. The 60% of them that are reversing their diabetes by following the guidance the service provides. It’s information that is readily available by all of the same doctors in their podcast interviews, websites, Ted talks, blogs and by reading their published papers. A person, and many do, can apply the same lifestyle changes on their own from the free information these same doctors provide but plenty of people are overwhelmed and don’t fully know how to start or more than likely, don’t have the support of a knowledgeable, local doctor to help them along the way.
This service exists because of need. It should be commended because they are literally doing what has been thought to be impossible. Reversing diabetes at a rate of 60% in one year.
You ask why these doctors do it? I don’t know each of their specific motives but I don’t think it’s solely money driven. There’s too much free information on that very website that you never need to pay a dime for to suggest they’re greedy. It’s full of tips, recipes and resources a person can use to live a low carb life without a cost at all. Then they publish their study progress and tell exactly what they are doing to achieve the results they are. I think that pretty much clears greed as a motivator.
There are thousands of other services, programs, websites designed as a membership or for pay to guide people choosing a multitude of dietary options. That’s because people often need help making positive, long term change no matter what their focus or dietary choice is.
Groups like this one and a million others are available for free and prove to be very helpful for many people. Some people need more help than this and that’s ok.

Do you know these doctors? I'm asking because you seem super-invested in validating their business model and their personal motives.

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

L1zardQueen wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

nationalvillage3215 wrote: »

For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.

May be of interest

https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/

I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).

And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto

They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.

I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.

It’s nice to have many options based upon your goals.
Those “internet doctors” have real offices where they see patients in person as well. They are actually running a long term study right now. The internet option brings their expertise to a much larger population. It’s a choice for anyone to use their service.
Sad that a team of doctors doing what has been thought to be impossible, gets reduced to being called “internet doctors” just because they make their services more widely available.
I guess you think it’s better for them to stay only minimally available for some reason? That’s weird.

But why do these internet doctors need to do this? For altruistic reasons? Or to make a lot money? They are in it for the money. Honestly

I find it funny you don’t question the motivations of the people that buy the service. The 60% of them that are reversing their diabetes by following the guidance the service provides. It’s information that is readily available by all of the same doctors in their podcast interviews, websites, Ted talks, blogs and by reading their published papers. A person, and many do, can apply the same lifestyle changes on their own from the free information these same doctors provide but plenty of people are overwhelmed and don’t fully know how to start or more than likely, don’t have the support of a knowledgeable, local doctor to help them along the way.
This service exists because of need. It should be commended because they are literally doing what has been thought to be impossible. Reversing diabetes at a rate of 60% in one year.
You ask why these doctors do it? I don’t know each of their specific motives but I don’t think it’s solely money driven. There’s too much free information on that very website that you never need to pay a dime for to suggest they’re greedy. It’s full of tips, recipes and resources a person can use to live a low carb life without a cost at all. Then they publish their study progress and tell exactly what they are doing to achieve the results they are. I think that pretty much clears greed as a motivator.
There are thousands of other services, programs, websites designed as a membership or for pay to guide people choosing a multitude of dietary options. That’s because people often need help making positive, long term change no matter what their focus or dietary choice is.
Groups like this one and a million others are available for free and prove to be very helpful for many people. Some people need more help than this and that’s ok.

Do you know these doctors? I'm asking because you seem super-invested in validating their business model and their personal motives.

I don’t know them. Not at all. I think it’s great work they are doing. If I were T2D I would be very motivated to do whatever I could to normalize blood sugar and avoid the complications of diabetes. My own Type 1 diabetic daughter works to be as healthy as she is able to be even with no possibility of reversal of the disease. I think the more resources available to people, the better. Especially if it’s proven to work so well.
It would be a shame for someone to discount the possible help a service like that could offer because someone online made uninformed, negative comments about the doctors simply because it’s a pay service that’s easily available to people everywhere. Ie: online...

But there are ways to potentially do that without paying $2,400 a year (plus $500 initially) to someone who will never even examine you in person. I may have missed it, but when was it proven to work well? Has a third party not involved with the business examined their work and their success rate? Do we know how many people pay for a while and then quit because they don't see results? The figure of 60% success is based on information they're providing, correct?

Edit: It's actually $4,440 per year because the first year is $370 a month. The $199 is the monthly price after the first year. That their business model is structured to get more money early is interesting, perhaps they know something we don't about how motivated people are to continue after 12 months or so.

Edit 2: Although you said earlier in the thread that people could get this information for free and apply it on their own, the website itself specifically cautions people against doing that, claiming that it is a safety risk. https://www.virtahealth.com/faq

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

L1zardQueen wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

nationalvillage3215 wrote: »

For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.

May be of interest

https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/

I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).

And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto

They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.

I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.

It’s nice to have many options based upon your goals.
Those “internet doctors” have real offices where they see patients in person as well. They are actually running a long term study right now. The internet option brings their expertise to a much larger population. It’s a choice for anyone to use their service.
Sad that a team of doctors doing what has been thought to be impossible, gets reduced to being called “internet doctors” just because they make their services more widely available.
I guess you think it’s better for them to stay only minimally available for some reason? That’s weird.

But why do these internet doctors need to do this? For altruistic reasons? Or to make a lot money? They are in it for the money. Honestly

I find it funny you don’t question the motivations of the people that buy the service. The 60% of them that are reversing their diabetes by following the guidance the service provides. It’s information that is readily available by all of the same doctors in their podcast interviews, websites, Ted talks, blogs and by reading their published papers. A person, and many do, can apply the same lifestyle changes on their own from the free information these same doctors provide but plenty of people are overwhelmed and don’t fully know how to start or more than likely, don’t have the support of a knowledgeable, local doctor to help them along the way.
This service exists because of need. It should be commended because they are literally doing what has been thought to be impossible. Reversing diabetes at a rate of 60% in one year.
You ask why these doctors do it? I don’t know each of their specific motives but I don’t think it’s solely money driven. There’s too much free information on that very website that you never need to pay a dime for to suggest they’re greedy. It’s full of tips, recipes and resources a person can use to live a low carb life without a cost at all. Then they publish their study progress and tell exactly what they are doing to achieve the results they are. I think that pretty much clears greed as a motivator.
There are thousands of other services, programs, websites designed as a membership or for pay to guide people choosing a multitude of dietary options. That’s because people often need help making positive, long term change no matter what their focus or dietary choice is.
Groups like this one and a million others are available for free and prove to be very helpful for many people. Some people need more help than this and that’s ok.

Do you know these doctors? I'm asking because you seem super-invested in validating their business model and their personal motives.

I don’t know them. Not at all. I think it’s great work they are doing. If I were T2D I would be very motivated to do whatever I could to normalize blood sugar and avoid the complications of diabetes. My own Type 1 diabetic daughter works to be as healthy as she is able to be even with no possibility of reversal of the disease. I think the more resources available to people, the better. Especially if it’s proven to work so well.
It would be a shame for someone to discount the possible help a service like that could offer because someone online made uninformed, negative comments about the doctors simply because it’s a pay service that’s easily available to people everywhere. Ie: online...

You could also increase your activity level, and lose weight without paying a ridiculous fee to an online doctor who probably cares more about your credit card number than they do the number on your scale at home.

magnusthenerd wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

L1zardQueen wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

nationalvillage3215 wrote: »

For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.

May be of interest

https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/

I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).

And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto

They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.

I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.

It’s nice to have many options based upon your goals.
Those “internet doctors” have real offices where they see patients in person as well. They are actually running a long term study right now. The internet option brings their expertise to a much larger population. It’s a choice for anyone to use their service.
Sad that a team of doctors doing what has been thought to be impossible, gets reduced to being called “internet doctors” just because they make their services more widely available.
I guess you think it’s better for them to stay only minimally available for some reason? That’s weird.

But why do these internet doctors need to do this? For altruistic reasons? Or to make a lot money? They are in it for the money. Honestly

I find it funny you don’t question the motivations of the people that buy the service. The 60% of them that are reversing their diabetes by following the guidance the service provides. It’s information that is readily available by all of the same doctors in their podcast interviews, websites, Ted talks, blogs and by reading their published papers. A person, and many do, can apply the same lifestyle changes on their own from the free information these same doctors provide but plenty of people are overwhelmed and don’t fully know how to start or more than likely, don’t have the support of a knowledgeable, local doctor to help them along the way.
This service exists because of need. It should be commended because they are literally doing what has been thought to be impossible. Reversing diabetes at a rate of 60% in one year.
You ask why these doctors do it? I don’t know each of their specific motives but I don’t think it’s solely money driven. There’s too much free information on that very website that you never need to pay a dime for to suggest they’re greedy. It’s full of tips, recipes and resources a person can use to live a low carb life without a cost at all. Then they publish their study progress and tell exactly what they are doing to achieve the results they are. I think that pretty much clears greed as a motivator.
There are thousands of other services, programs, websites designed as a membership or for pay to guide people choosing a multitude of dietary options. That’s because people often need help making positive, long term change no matter what their focus or dietary choice is.
Groups like this one and a million others are available for free and prove to be very helpful for many people. Some people need more help than this and that’s ok.

Do you know these doctors? I'm asking because you seem super-invested in validating their business model and their personal motives.

I don’t know them. Not at all. I think it’s great work they are doing. If I were T2D I would be very motivated to do whatever I could to normalize blood sugar and avoid the complications of diabetes. My own Type 1 diabetic daughter works to be as healthy as she is able to be even with no possibility of reversal of the disease. I think the more resources available to people, the better. Especially if it’s proven to work so well.
It would be a shame for someone to discount the possible help a service like that could offer because someone online made uninformed, negative comments about the doctors simply because it’s a pay service that’s easily available to people everywhere. Ie: online...

But there are ways to potentially do that without paying $2,400 a year (plus $500 initially) to someone who will never even examine you in person. I may have missed it, but when was it proven to work well? Has a third party not involved with the business examined their work and their success rate? Do we know how many people pay for a while and then quit because they don't see results? The figure of 60% success is based on information they're providing, correct?

Edit: It's actually $4,440 per year because the first year is $370 a month. The $199 is the monthly price after the first year. That their business model is structured to get more money early is interesting, perhaps they know something we don't about how motivated people are to continue after 12 months or so.

Edit 2: Although you said earlier in the thread that people could get this information for free and apply it on their own, the website itself specifically cautions people against doing that, claiming that it is a safety risk. https://www.virtahealth.com/faq

The 60% success rate seems to be based on criteria for reversing T2D the researchers set. It is also based on the results of people that completed the program - people that dropped out of the program don't count against them.

Thanks for looking that up. That's a very convenient way to measure it!

wmd1979 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

L1zardQueen wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

zeejane03 wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

nationalvillage3215 wrote: »

For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.

May be of interest

https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/

I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).

And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto

They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.

I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.

It’s nice to have many options based upon your goals.
Those “internet doctors” have real offices where they see patients in person as well. They are actually running a long term study right now. The internet option brings their expertise to a much larger population. It’s a choice for anyone to use their service.
Sad that a team of doctors doing what has been thought to be impossible, gets reduced to being called “internet doctors” just because they make their services more widely available.
I guess you think it’s better for them to stay only minimally available for some reason? That’s weird.

But why do these internet doctors need to do this? For altruistic reasons? Or to make a lot money? They are in it for the money. Honestly

I find it funny you don’t question the motivations of the people that buy the service. The 60% of them that are reversing their diabetes by following the guidance the service provides. It’s information that is readily available by all of the same doctors in their podcast interviews, websites, Ted talks, blogs and by reading their published papers. A person, and many do, can apply the same lifestyle changes on their own from the free information these same doctors provide but plenty of people are overwhelmed and don’t fully know how to start or more than likely, don’t have the support of a knowledgeable, local doctor to help them along the way.
This service exists because of need. It should be commended because they are literally doing what has been thought to be impossible. Reversing diabetes at a rate of 60% in one year.
You ask why these doctors do it? I don’t know each of their specific motives but I don’t think it’s solely money driven. There’s too much free information on that very website that you never need to pay a dime for to suggest they’re greedy. It’s full of tips, recipes and resources a person can use to live a low carb life without a cost at all. Then they publish their study progress and tell exactly what they are doing to achieve the results they are. I think that pretty much clears greed as a motivator.
There are thousands of other services, programs, websites designed as a membership or for pay to guide people choosing a multitude of dietary options. That’s because people often need help making positive, long term change no matter what their focus or dietary choice is.
Groups like this one and a million others are available for free and prove to be very helpful for many people. Some people need more help than this and that’s ok.

Do you know these doctors? I'm asking because you seem super-invested in validating their business model and their personal motives.

I don’t know them. Not at all. I think it’s great work they are doing. If I were T2D I would be very motivated to do whatever I could to normalize blood sugar and avoid the complications of diabetes. My own Type 1 diabetic daughter works to be as healthy as she is able to be even with no possibility of reversal of the disease. I think the more resources available to people, the better. Especially if it’s proven to work so well.
It would be a shame for someone to discount the possible help a service like that could offer because someone online made uninformed, negative comments about the doctors simply because it’s a pay service that’s easily available to people everywhere. Ie: online...

You could also increase your activity level, and lose weight without paying a ridiculous fee to an online doctor who probably cares more about your credit card number than they do the number on your scale at home.

Maybe. I’m pretty sure I never said there’s only one way...
not sure what your point is.
My entire point has been only that it’s an option which a person can choose if they want to.
Think what you want. Doesn’t matter either way to me.