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Keto diet = good or bad
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WinoGelato wrote: »Keto is great! I lost weight with it. Then I got sick from an unrelated genetic defect. When I started eating carbs I gained 50 pounds back. I went back on LCHF, OMAD, and light fasting in December. I'm averaging over 3 pounds a week and I've lost 40 pounds already! I walk a few miles a day, but that's it on exercise. I'll never go back to a high carbohydrate, low calorie, low-fat diet. It's actually improving my illness I think!
If you are losing weight you are in a calorie deficit and if you’re losing 3 lbs/week - a pretty steep one at that. Keto can be a tool for those who enjoy eating that way or who have a medical reason to restrict carbs. OMAD and IF are just other such tools. Nothing magical about any of them, for weight loss.
People like to say this but I do not agree. It's part of it but not the only reason. Low carb is a big factor because it stabilizes insulin. I've read many books on this. It's a fact supported by studies. I proved it to myself with my own experience and over 30 years of losing weight and gaining it back. When I eat high carb, low calorie I do not lose weight after a short time. I eat more calories and lose weight on low carb. It is magic for me!
Metabolic ward studies don't support it. Insulin, in a normal functioning body, works to shuttle nutrients into the cells. It's a normal function. Given calories and protein are maintained, there is zero difference, especially long term, in fat loss between keto and high carb equivalents.
What generally happens in ab litibum studies, is that people also increase protein, which is filling, causing a natural ability to get into a deficit.13 -
nationalvillage3215 wrote: »For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.
I've seen it argued by low carb advocates that fiber isn't necessary when doing keto. However, there's a lot of reputable research that points to higher fiber intake being a good thing and may help reduce the onset of some diseases. The newest coming out of WHO is for higher intakes than currently recommended (over 30g a day).
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31809-9/fulltext
(copy/paste the whole link into a new browser)
Hi,
Not everyone! I had a problem and my Gastro doctor said high fiber does not work for everyone. When I adopted a low carb diet my troubles went away. I eat a bunch of vegetables. But low carb is very low fiber. Don't listen to everything people tell you!
It largely depends on the disease. Many disease can benefit from fibrous diets, while others (like some forms of IBS) can increase symptoms. For the general populous who isn't in a disease state, fiber is very beneficial. Like protein, it has a high thermal effect for digestion, its highly correlated with being filling, and is loaded with vitamins and minerals.
Here is the key part of your statement: can increase symptoms.!9 -
nationalvillage3215 wrote: »For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.
I've seen it argued by low carb advocates that fiber isn't necessary when doing keto. However, there's a lot of reputable research that points to higher fiber intake being a good thing and may help reduce the onset of some diseases. The newest coming out of WHO is for higher intakes than currently recommended (over 30g a day).
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31809-9/fulltext
(copy/paste the whole link into a new browser)
Hi,
Not everyone! I had a problem and my Gastro doctor said high fiber does not work for everyone. When I adopted a low carb diet my troubles went away. I eat a bunch of vegetables. But low carb is very low fiber. Don't listen to everything people tell you!
It largely depends on the disease. Many disease can benefit from fibrous diets, while others (like some forms of IBS) can increase symptoms. For the general populous who isn't in a disease state, fiber is very beneficial. Like protein, it has a high thermal effect for digestion, its highly correlated with being filling, and is loaded with vitamins and minerals.
Here is the key part of your statement: can increase symptoms.!
I wasn't exactly disagreeing with you. But the very few who need low carb, is exactly that, very few. You, like my wife, are in a different situation, which requires specialized help. For my wife, low fiber was only suggest when her diverticulitis was flaring. When it wasn't high fiber was recommended. But overall, fiber supports good gut health.11 -
nationalvillage3215 wrote: »For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.
I've seen it argued by low carb advocates that fiber isn't necessary when doing keto. However, there's a lot of reputable research that points to higher fiber intake being a good thing and may help reduce the onset of some diseases. The newest coming out of WHO is for higher intakes than currently recommended (over 30g a day).
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31809-9/fulltext
(copy/paste the whole link into a new browser)
Hi,
Not everyone! I had a problem and my Gastro doctor said high fiber does not work for everyone. When I adopted a low carb diet my troubles went away. I eat a bunch of vegetables. But low carb is very low fiber. Don't listen to everything people tell you!
It largely depends on the disease. Many disease can benefit from fibrous diets, while others (like some forms of IBS) can increase symptoms. For the general populous who isn't in a disease state, fiber is very beneficial. Like protein, it has a high thermal effect for digestion, its highly correlated with being filling, and is loaded with vitamins and minerals.
Here is the key part of your statement: can increase symptoms.!
I wasn't exactly disagreeing with you. But the very few who need low carb, is exactly that, very few. You, like my wife, are in a different situation, which requires specialized help. For my wife, low fiber was only suggest when her diverticulitis was flaring. When it wasn't high fiber was recommended. But overall, fiber supports good gut health.
I'll buy that. But remember, not everyone benefits from high fiber! And tell your wife to watch out for macadamia nuts. My wife used to buy me the big can at Costo. A few days of eating them will cause a diverticulitis flare up. Doctors will tell you nuts don't cause it. I call BS and I am not testing it a third time!3 -
nationalvillage3215 wrote: »For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.
I've seen it argued by low carb advocates that fiber isn't necessary when doing keto. However, there's a lot of reputable research that points to higher fiber intake being a good thing and may help reduce the onset of some diseases. The newest coming out of WHO is for higher intakes than currently recommended (over 30g a day).
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31809-9/fulltext
(copy/paste the whole link into a new browser)
Hi,
Not everyone! I had a problem and my Gastro doctor said high fiber does not work for everyone. When I adopted a low carb diet my troubles went away. I eat a bunch of vegetables. But low carb is very low fiber. Don't listen to everything people tell you!
It largely depends on the disease. Many disease can benefit from fibrous diets, while others (like some forms of IBS) can increase symptoms. For the general populous who isn't in a disease state, fiber is very beneficial. Like protein, it has a high thermal effect for digestion, its highly correlated with being filling, and is loaded with vitamins and minerals.
Here is the key part of your statement: can increase symptoms.!
I wasn't exactly disagreeing with you. But the very few who need low carb, is exactly that, very few. You, like my wife, are in a different situation, which requires specialized help. For my wife, low fiber was only suggest when her diverticulitis was flaring. When it wasn't high fiber was recommended. But overall, fiber supports good gut health.
I'll buy that. But remember, not everyone benefits from high fiber! And tell your wife to watch out for macadamia nuts. My wife used to buy me the big can at Costo. A few days of eating them will cause a diverticulitis flare up. Doctors will tell you nuts don't cause it. I call BS and I am not testing it a third time!
Thanks, but she already had a colon recession since her diverticulitis was terrible (she has 5 flare ups in a few years). Since then, she has been feeling great and working on increasing fruit/veggie consumption. Her only issue is non cooked veggies.3 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Keto is great! I lost weight with it. Then I got sick from an unrelated genetic defect. When I started eating carbs I gained 50 pounds back. I went back on LCHF, OMAD, and light fasting in December. I'm averaging over 3 pounds a week and I've lost 40 pounds already! I walk a few miles a day, but that's it on exercise. I'll never go back to a high carbohydrate, low calorie, low-fat diet. It's actually improving my illness I think!
If you are losing weight you are in a calorie deficit and if you’re losing 3 lbs/week - a pretty steep one at that. Keto can be a tool for those who enjoy eating that way or who have a medical reason to restrict carbs. OMAD and IF are just other such tools. Nothing magical about any of them, for weight loss.
People like to say this but I do not agree. It's part of it but not the only reason. Low carb is a big factor because it stabilizes insulin. I've read many books on this. It's a fact supported by studies. I proved it to myself with my own experience and over 30 years of losing weight and gaining it back. When I eat high carb, low calorie I do not lose weight after a short time. I eat more calories and lose weight on low carb. It is magic for me!
Metabolic ward studies don't support it. Insulin, in a normal functioning body, works to shuttle nutrients into the cells. It's a normal function. Given calories and protein are maintained, there is zero difference, especially long term, in fat loss between keto and high carb equivalents.
What generally happens in ab litibum studies, is that people also increase protein, which is filling, causing a natural ability to get into a deficit.
I bet I can show you more studies that prove it's a fact that you can that don't. How much do you want to bet? It's a well-known fact that low carb stabilizes insulin. There are a growing number of doctors that recognize this and are using low carb to treat medical conditions.20 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Keto is great! I lost weight with it. Then I got sick from an unrelated genetic defect. When I started eating carbs I gained 50 pounds back. I went back on LCHF, OMAD, and light fasting in December. I'm averaging over 3 pounds a week and I've lost 40 pounds already! I walk a few miles a day, but that's it on exercise. I'll never go back to a high carbohydrate, low calorie, low-fat diet. It's actually improving my illness I think!
If you are losing weight you are in a calorie deficit and if you’re losing 3 lbs/week - a pretty steep one at that. Keto can be a tool for those who enjoy eating that way or who have a medical reason to restrict carbs. OMAD and IF are just other such tools. Nothing magical about any of them, for weight loss.
People like to say this but I do not agree. It's part of it but not the only reason. Low carb is a big factor because it stabilizes insulin. I've read many books on this. It's a fact supported by studies. I proved it to myself with my own experience and over 30 years of losing weight and gaining it back. When I eat high carb, low calorie I do not lose weight after a short time. I eat more calories and lose weight on low carb. It is magic for me!
Metabolic ward studies don't support it. Insulin, in a normal functioning body, works to shuttle nutrients into the cells. It's a normal function. Given calories and protein are maintained, there is zero difference, especially long term, in fat loss between keto and high carb equivalents.
What generally happens in ab litibum studies, is that people also increase protein, which is filling, causing a natural ability to get into a deficit.
I bet I can show you more studies that prove it's a fact that you can that don't. How much do you want to bet? It's a well-known fact that low carb stabilizes insulin. There are a growing number of doctors that recognize this and are using low carb to treat medical conditions.
There are only a few metabolic ward studies, so I am going to suggest that you can't show me much. Most of the low carb studies have dieters eat ad litibum, are not done in a metabolic ward, or dont' even control protein.
You don't need to control insulin. Your body will do that naturally, unless you have insulin resistance.
There is also a reason why companies such as NUSI has pretty much disappeared. Why? Because if you look at meta-analyses, there is no difference between low fat and low carb. And that to doesn't consider the fact that there is a whole middle ground.
https://examine.com/nutrition/low-fat-vs-low-carb-for-weight-loss/
Even more so, if you look at the blue zone (the longest living and healthiest nations in the world) they tend to have similar characteristics.... high carb, lower calories and have active lifestyles.
Dont' get my wrong, I think there is plenty of application for low carb/keto diets, but that doesn't mean they are in any way superior.
BTW, there is no statistically difference between low carb and low fat diets as it relations to insulin sensitivity.
And this doesn't even get into the discussion regarding building muscle, which seems to be less effective on keto diets.17 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
@PalDali that is an awesome Keto success story. Best of continued success for both of you.
It is true about 30% of the population has trouble doing Keto for one reason or another but after 4.5 years of keto it has helped resolved so many of my health issues plus I did lose 50 pounds and maintained that loss for over 3 years now. Nearly every week I learn more about keto still today at the age of 68.
Do I even want to know where you came up with this figure? Seeing that the majority of the population hasn't even tried keto, I am curious how anyone can throw up any sort of statistic such as this.
@wmd1979 I was sure Dr. Peter Attia said 30% but all I have found in print (podcast notes) is 10-20% people do very badly on a ketogenic diet. As you can see this is fairly current from Dr. Attia.
https://podcastnotes.org/2018/07/03/attia-patrick/
".....Some people (Peter estimates 10-20% of people), do very badly on a ketogenic diet
Negative things that happen:
Their LDL particle numbers go up, despite the fact that their triglyceride levels go down
Levels of C-reactive protein (CRP) rise – this is a marker of inflammation
Markers of cholesterol biosynthesis go up – their bodies are making more cholesterol
Their phytosterols go up (which typically go down on a ketogenic diet)
Phytosterols are a group of naturally occurring compounds found in plant cell membranes.
Cholesterol is the sterol from an animal
Phytosterol is the cholesterol equivalent from a plant
Note from Podcast Notes – This must mean their body has a harder time clearing phytosterols?
Peter had one patient, whom this happened to, here’s what he did:
He cut his patient’s saturated fat intake to very low levels (20-25 grams a day)
65% of his fat calories were being consumed from mono unsaturated fat (this is very hard to do, an easy way to get this much mono unsaturated fat is to consume lots of olive oil)
After 8-12 weeks, with the same macronutrient distribution (so the same overall levels of protein, carbs, and fat – just with different types of fat – much less saturated fat) – their LDL particle number dropped tremendously, inflammation dropped, and their sterol biomarkers returned to normal
People with certain SNPs (pronounced snips – these are basically single gene variants) on PPAR alpha and PPAR gamma, just don’t do well with saturated fat, like Peter’s patient
People with these SNPs, should have a higher ratio of poly and mono unsaturated fat to saturated fat intake, in order to lower their type 2 diabetes risk
If they consume too much saturated fat, they’ll see effects similar to what was observed with Peter’s patient
Why some people have trouble entering ketosis
From an evolutionary perspective, you should have been selected out really quickly if you can’t make ketones efficiently
It’s not all about generating ketones, first you have to deplete your glycogen (stored liver glucose) – once our body depletes its stored glucose, then it starts running on ketones....."
11 -
So one link from examine.com? How much are we betting? I really don't agree with several things you've said here. Insulin absolutely plays a part in really fat people with diabetes metabolic syndrome and several other diseases. For me, it's way superior. There is a huge difference in low carb vs low calorie in basically every aspect. Weight loss, health gains, saity and happiness being the most important. There are lots of sucessful low carb athletes too.
23 -
nationalvillage3215 wrote: »For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.
I've seen it argued by low carb advocates that fiber isn't necessary when doing keto. However, there's a lot of reputable research that points to higher fiber intake being a good thing and may help reduce the onset of some diseases. The newest coming out of WHO is for higher intakes than currently recommended (over 30g a day).
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31809-9/fulltext
(copy/paste the whole link into a new browser)
Hi,
Not everyone! I had a problem and my Gastro doctor said high fiber does not work for everyone. When I adopted a low carb diet my troubles went away. I eat a bunch of vegetables. But low carb is very low fiber. Don't listen to everything people tell you!
It largely depends on the disease. Many disease can benefit from fibrous diets, while others (like some forms of IBS) can increase symptoms. For the general populous who isn't in a disease state, fiber is very beneficial. Like protein, it has a high thermal effect for digestion, its highly correlated with being filling, and is loaded with vitamins and minerals.
Here is the key part of your statement: can increase symptoms.!
I wasn't exactly disagreeing with you. But the very few who need low carb, is exactly that, very few. You, like my wife, are in a different situation, which requires specialized help. For my wife, low fiber was only suggest when her diverticulitis was flaring. When it wasn't high fiber was recommended. But overall, fiber supports good gut health.
I'll buy that. But remember, not everyone benefits from high fiber! And tell your wife to watch out for macadamia nuts. My wife used to buy me the big can at Costo. A few days of eating them will cause a diverticulitis flare up. Doctors will tell you nuts don't cause it. I call BS and I am not testing it a third time!
Thanks, but she already had a colon recession since her diverticulitis was terrible (she has 5 flare ups in a few years). Since then, she has been feeling great and working on increasing fruit/veggie consumption. Her only issue is non cooked veggies.
That's scary. I'm sorry & hope she stays well. I was headed there until I went back on low carb and stopped trying to eat 30 grams of fiber a day.1 -
So one link from examine.com? How much are we betting? I really don't agree with several things you've said here. Insulin absolutely plays a part in really fat people with diabetes metabolic syndrome and several other diseases. For me, it's way superior. There is a huge difference in low carb vs low calorie in basically every aspect. Weight loss, health gains, saity and happiness being the most important. There are lots of sucessful low carb athletes too.
You are conflating healthy people with sick people and assuming your personal preferences are everyone's
Yes, people who already have diabetes or metabolic syndrome may do better on lower carb due to insulin control issues. But healthy people don't need to fuss with that.
SOME people are more satiated and happy on LCHF. Others of us find whole grains filling. I find potatoes, pasta, rice, and oats very filling. I can easily overeat fatty meats, cheese, and nuts, and tend to feel heavy and fatigued when I eat higher fat
It's awesome if low carb and IF are helping you. But they are personal preference, not universal necessities.10 -
No, I am not. I think keto is far superior and every way. This is from experience eating both ways to lose weight. My wife who is healthy and not fat started supporting me and eating kind of like I do. She eats less fat and more carbs but still low carb for a pasta and potato girl. She has lost 11 pounds in about 6 weeks. Her statement was something like, "huh how did that happen? I wasn't even trying to lose weight."
I can easily overeat fatty meats, cheese, and nuts, and tend to feel heavy and fatigued when I eat higher fat
This is not what I eat. I eat no nuts and very little cheese. I eat some meat on most days, but this is not the bulk of my diet. I try to eat less than 20 % of my calories from protein.
You are going to have to face it. Low Carb is very beneficial!24 -
PS. I am 59 and she just turned 61. My BMI was 44 at one time and it's 34 now. Hers is 27. We are both short and squatty. All *kitten* and no body
On second thought, hers is probably lower because 11 pounds is probably 8% of her body weight.2 -
No, I am not. I think keto is far superior and every way. This is from experience eating both ways to lose weight. My wife who is healthy and not fat started supporting me and eating kind of like I do. She eats less fat and more carbs but still low carb for a pasta and potato girl. She has lost 11 pounds in about 6 weeks. Her statement was something like, "huh how did that happen? I wasn't even trying to lose weight."
I can easily overeat fatty meats, cheese, and nuts, and tend to feel heavy and fatigued when I eat higher fat
This is not what I eat. I eat no nuts and very little cheese. I eat some meat on most days, but this is not the bulk of my diet. I try to eat less than 20 % of my calories from protein.
You are going to have to face it. Low Carb is very beneficial!
Have you read through the 21 pages of posts in this thread, which have a mix of positive and negative experiences, just like any other dietary approach to weight loss?
It’s great that you are succeeding with this approach and satiety and adherence are too long term predictors of success. But they are also variable between individuals so what feels effortless to you and your wife may not be the same for others. And again, there are no specific advantages for weight loss in metabolic ward studies when comparing a low carb diet to any other calorie controlled method.7 -
No, I am not. I think keto is far superior and every way. This is from experience eating both ways to lose weight. My wife who is healthy and not fat started supporting me and eating kind of like I do. She eats less fat and more carbs but still low carb for a pasta and potato girl. She has lost 11 pounds in about 6 weeks. Her statement was something like, "huh how did that happen? I wasn't even trying to lose weight."
I can easily overeat fatty meats, cheese, and nuts, and tend to feel heavy and fatigued when I eat higher fat
This is not what I eat. I eat no nuts and very little cheese. I eat some meat on most days, but this is not the bulk of my diet. I try to eat less than 20 % of my calories from protein.
You are going to have to face it. Low Carb is very beneficial!
I can't tell you how many people i have helped/trained after gaining a bunch of weight on keto and low carb. So while its beneficial for you, its not for others in many ways. For me, keto was miserable and unsustainable. Constant hunger, dizziness, and fatigue. And before you promote electrolyte imbalance, i was consuming over 6000mg of sodium and concentrating on potassium rich foods. I also had huge losses in my lifts... Like 50lbs off my deadlift, 25 lbs off my bench, and 40 lbs off my squat. On top of that, my overall volume sucked. Considering i lost 50lbs and kept it off for 6+ years on a high protein high carb diet, i say i did well. All my metabolic markers where im great position too.
Also, limiting protein can work against you. It helps prevent muscle and lean body mass loss, increases compliance, energy expenditure, helps reduce osteoporosis, and a host of other things.15 -
No, I am not. I think keto is far superior and every way. This is from experience eating both ways to lose weight. My wife who is healthy and not fat started supporting me and eating kind of like I do. She eats less fat and more carbs but still low carb for a pasta and potato girl. She has lost 11 pounds in about 6 weeks. Her statement was something like, "huh how did that happen? I wasn't even trying to lose weight."
I can easily overeat fatty meats, cheese, and nuts, and tend to feel heavy and fatigued when I eat higher fat
This is not what I eat. I eat no nuts and very little cheese. I eat some meat on most days, but this is not the bulk of my diet. I try to eat less than 20 % of my calories from protein.
You are going to have to face it. Low Carb is very beneficial!
If you go from a fairly high carb to a low carb or keto diet, glycogen depletion/water loss does account for a good amount. I easier lose 7 lbs in a few days every time i use keto for an event. And its also possible your wife is satiated by fats and naturally ate less. Its not uncommon. Even the literature has supported that.6 -
So one link from examine.com? How much are we betting? I really don't agree with several things you've said here. Insulin absolutely plays a part in really fat people with diabetes metabolic syndrome and several other diseases. For me, it's way superior. There is a huge difference in low carb vs low calorie in basically every aspect. Weight loss, health gains, saity and happiness being the most important. There are lots of sucessful low carb athletes too.
Most of the world's athletes are high carb. There are exceptions, but that is it... Exceptions. And those exceptions are generally limited to endurance events where fat metabolism can play a bigger role. Those events which require anaerobic environments, all show big losses on low carb diets.
Also, insulin is only one of many key hormones involved; ghrelin, letpin, hormone sensitive lipase, acylation stimulating protein and glucose dependant insulintropic peptide all have roles. And these are still only a component of the equation.10 -
Well, no I didn't read all of this. I tried to answer the original question is keto good or bad. I think I have more evidence that it's good than you folks do saying it's bad. There are plenty of methods to lose weight.
Constant hunger, dizziness, and fatigue. And before you promote electrolyte imbalance, I was consuming over 6000mg and concentrating on potassium-rich foods.
You were low on salt. I have no idea how you ate 6000 mg of potassium. That would kill me. Do you know too much potassium will kill you? My body cannot regulate potassium so I know about this. I was in the heart attack zone and in less than two months my potassium was normal. LCHF is a low potassium diet.
21 -
With the recent discovery of 'keto crotch' it's a no from me.14
-
Well, no I didn't read all of this. I tried to answer the original question is keto good or bad. I think I have more evidence that it's good than you folks do saying it's bad. There are plenty of methods to lose weight.
Constant hunger, dizziness, and fatigue. And before you promote electrolyte imbalance, I was consuming over 6000mg and concentrating on potassium-rich foods.
You were low on salt. I have no idea how you ate 6000 mg of potassium. That would kill me. Do you know too much potassium will kill you? My body cannot regulate potassium so I know about this. I was in the heart attack zone and in less than two months my potassium was normal. LCHF is a low potassium diet.
I had over 6000mg of sodium and a potassium rich diet. I am extremely well versed in dieting.8
This discussion has been closed.
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