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Keto diet = good or bad
Replies
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I'm a vegan and was brought up as one- that's my normal.HeliumIsNoble wrote: »I probably could eat only potatoes for a month, but I'm not convinced I'm capable of eating so few as to lose weight.
You'd be surprised-once you remove all the fun extras (butter, cheese, bacon etc) and alls you have is plain, naked potatoes you don't really feel like eating a lot of them
My family used to say my childhood willingness to subsist on potatoes and nothing else was our Irish ancestry coming out. I say it was a learnt coping mechanism to survive the early years of my mother's cooking. She couldn't mess those up!
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Penn (of Penn and Teller) started his weight loss with the potato diet - he ate only potatoes for a month and then slowly added other foods back in.
https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/health/diet-nutrition/news/a39697/penn-jillette-weight-loss-potato-diet/
I couldn't do the mental gymnastics required to talk myself into that. I like potatoes and all, but....no..HeliumIsNoble wrote: »I probably could eat only potatoes for a month, but I'm not convinced I'm capable of eating so few as to lose weight.
If we want to live on Mars someday, we'd better learn how...
Yes, but he also had ketchup....
I figure we can relax the rules under such extreme circumstances...1 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »
Isn't interesting that people saying it is possible to analyze studies and draw conclusions about them can point out potential issues in this study?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »There seems to be a lot you thinking the study was designed to do anything other than test the efficacy of a low carb diet.
Someone mentioned that people quit the study... people quit every study. For whatever reason. Literally someone could just decide that donuts are more important to them than not being diabetic. People literally do that every single day.
Knit picking irrelevant things you think matter doesn’t change the fact that 60% of the people reversed their diabetes. The reason that’s significant is because reputable resources like the ADA would have you believe it’s a progressive disease with no hope of reversal. Weight loss alone doesn’t show a 60% reversal rate. If weight was the factor that idea suggests, lean people wouldn’t become diabetic.
All your bias is showing.
As far as what is or isn't nitpicking about the study, I think you fundamentally disqualified yourself from making those assessments with your rejection of science as having valid methods over subjective experience based epistemology.
And yes, in obese and overweight individuals early in T2D, successfully losing and maintaining a 10% reduction in weight is about a guarantee to reversal. Good exercise programs can reduce markers in 4 weeks. Compliance is a huge factor.
Now can weight loss treat all T2D? No, it has both a lifestyle and genetic component. That I'm saying it can be treated that way isn't saying that is the whole etiology of the condition.
And yes, my bias does show. Understanding science will cause massive bias about studies based on their methodology. Bias isn't the same as being incorrect. If that is your standard, the Virta study has the issue of the doctors doing it all have financial relationships with Virta. But I frankly tried to avoid even bothering with that because I think it is the lowest tier of criticism of scientific research.
You say a lot of things. Most of which are incredibly one sided where you completely ignore anything anyone else says.
Meh
One sided in what sense. I haven't seen him take a position for or against keto, which is the topic. He is proscience. Why does that disturb you? You seem to be looking for an argument.
Seriously?!?! I gave someone a link to an article that happened to be on the Virta site and then had people jumping all over Virta as money hungry snake oil salesmen. I never made any claims of any kind. I only shared info I thought someone, not even those responding, might be interested in. And I’m the one looking for a fight? What a joke!
I’ve clearly said all along that It’s good for people to have options so they can find what’s right for them.
That’s argumentative?!?
Interesting
This is the debate section. Things get debated here.
I learned that quickly. lol Some people like not just healthy debate but fighting. That takes too much precious time from my life to engage in that. That is to say go back and forth. But that's why this area is here yes?.....I can do without the extra cortisol......from the stress you know? Teehee1 -
JusticejamesbMBA wrote: »Daisy_Girl2019 wrote: »If you do it, watch your cholesterol. When you do your yearly check-up ask your Dr to check your fasting labs and lipids.
I've been doing Keto for a few years, my cholesterol is perfect, I have to have it checked every year because the State of Utah demands it. All I know is this, people have been preaching low fat, high carb, calorie restricted diets for the past 50-years, and we, American's have never been fatter. LCHF Keto solves all of that.
Congratulations on your success with keto. Ican't seem to keep the carbs as low as I need. I know what. I will work harder at it. 😊
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
I think the reality behind the articles in something like that. (I lasted two weeks the only and only time I tried to learn classical Greek so this is not. my. area.) Buzzfeed et al make it sound really excitingly alien of them and make it sound like they definitively saw the sky differently from us.diannethegeek wrote: »HeliumIsNoble wrote: »Ooh, I espy an opportunity for a tangent. Did you know that according to clickbait articles, the ancient Greeks didn't see blue?
(I think it was a great deal more complex than that, in reality.)
They grouped blue and green together under a single color name, if I recall correctly. And I believe several other cultures did the same thing. But it's been a long time since my degree so I may have it wrong.
So there's a solid historical precedent to be made that the sky is actually green. We only call it blue as a modern invention.
Sadly, I'm not convinced that using one word for a spectrum of colour that English-speaking people in our own time-frame divide into two smaller spectra with their own word means that Archimedes thought trees and the sky were the same shade of colour!
Well Yes, and No. The weak Sapor-Whorf hypothesis has evidence in that one's native languages does tend shade one's ability to differentiate close hues: Russians lack a word for pink, and they subsequently seem to be less apt at differentiating when a pink next to a red are different colors than an English speaker.
For colors as fundamental as green and blue though, no the Ancient Greeks didn't see them the same. The word for chlorphyl itself comes from the Ancient Greek "χλωρός (khlōrós) "bright green" but also "acid yellow"".4 -
diannethegeek wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »
Isn't interesting that people saying it is possible to analyze studies and draw conclusions about them can point out potential issues in this study?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »There seems to be a lot you thinking the study was designed to do anything other than test the efficacy of a low carb diet.
Someone mentioned that people quit the study... people quit every study. For whatever reason. Literally someone could just decide that donuts are more important to them than not being diabetic. People literally do that every single day.
Knit picking irrelevant things you think matter doesn’t change the fact that 60% of the people reversed their diabetes. The reason that’s significant is because reputable resources like the ADA would have you believe it’s a progressive disease with no hope of reversal. Weight loss alone doesn’t show a 60% reversal rate. If weight was the factor that idea suggests, lean people wouldn’t become diabetic.
All your bias is showing.
As far as what is or isn't nitpicking about the study, I think you fundamentally disqualified yourself from making those assessments with your rejection of science as having valid methods over subjective experience based epistemology.
And yes, in obese and overweight individuals early in T2D, successfully losing and maintaining a 10% reduction in weight is about a guarantee to reversal. Good exercise programs can reduce markers in 4 weeks. Compliance is a huge factor.
Now can weight loss treat all T2D? No, it has both a lifestyle and genetic component. That I'm saying it can be treated that way isn't saying that is the whole etiology of the condition.
And yes, my bias does show. Understanding science will cause massive bias about studies based on their methodology. Bias isn't the same as being incorrect. If that is your standard, the Virta study has the issue of the doctors doing it all have financial relationships with Virta. But I frankly tried to avoid even bothering with that because I think it is the lowest tier of criticism of scientific research.
You say a lot of things. Most of which are incredibly one sided where you completely ignore anything anyone else says.
Meh
One sided in what sense. I haven't seen him take a position for or against keto, which is the topic. He is proscience. Why does that disturb you? You seem to be looking for an argument.
Seriously?!?! I gave someone a link to an article that happened to be on the Virta site and then had people jumping all over Virta as money hungry snake oil salesmen. I never made any claims of any kind. I only shared info I thought someone, not even those responding, might be interested in. And I’m the one looking for a fight? What a joke!
I’ve clearly said all along that It’s good for people to have options so they can find what’s right for them.
That’s argumentative?!?
Interesting
This is the debate section. Things get debated here.
I honestly believe that if someone posted to the debate section that the sky is blue, MFP would go 28 pages debating whether it's actually blue or if it's just perceived as blue.
Lol. I AGREE!!! Imagine that1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
Where do you live that vegetarian options aren't available? In the US, there's usually at least one option for vegetarians except maybe in some really rural areas (and even then, you can usually get an omelette or a grilled cheese or something).janejellyroll wrote: »svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
Where do you live that vegetarian options aren't available? In the US, there's usually at least one option for vegetarians except maybe in some really rural areas (and even then, you can usually get an omelette or a grilled cheese or something).
Do veggie people eat cheese? Vegetarians that is...I know there are different types. But I'm not wise to all of it1 -
Ovo-lacto and lacto-vegetarians do, provided that the rennet used as a coagulant isn't meat-derived. (Traditionally, it comes from a calf's stomach, but there are vegetarian sources.) Vegans do not.4
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I never knew that. Thanks 🙂diannethegeek wrote: »HeliumIsNoble wrote: »Ooh, I espy an opportunity for a tangent. Did you know that according to clickbait articles, the ancient Greeks didn't see blue?
(I think it was a great deal more complex than that, in reality.)
They grouped blue and green together under a single color name, if I recall correctly. And I believe several other cultures did the same thing. But it's been a long time since my degree so I may have it wrong.
So there's a solid historical precedent to be made that the sky is actually green. We only call it blue as a modern invention.
Yep, this. Heck, I just admitted that I've done the potato hack on a different thread, we could have all sorts of fun with that one
And I don't even know what the heck the potato hack is!!
Like I said, there's a wealth of information to be gotten here 😁
Oh it's a dumpter fire waiting to happen
I actually proofread a book about the hack for a guy, (Tim Steele), I met on another forum, a few years back. He ended up publishing it and is now working on his second book. He's an advocate of short potato hacks, but the Potato Hack King is the Spud Fit Man, the man is a legend lol
https://www.today.com/health/spud-fit-man-loses-weight-eating-only-potatoes-year-t106144
Did Tim Steele steal your idea????? Oh for shame0 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
Where do you live that vegetarian options aren't available? In the US, there's usually at least one option for vegetarians except maybe in some really rural areas (and even then, you can usually get an omelette or a grilled cheese or something).janejellyroll wrote: »svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
Where do you live that vegetarian options aren't available? In the US, there's usually at least one option for vegetarians except maybe in some really rural areas (and even then, you can usually get an omelette or a grilled cheese or something).
Do veggie people eat cheese? Vegetarians that is...I know there are different types. But I'm not wise to all of it
In the US when many people use the word "vegetarian," they're referring to lacto-ovo vegetarians, who eat both eggs and dairy. If you see the word "vegetarian" on the menu or purchase a vegetarian cookbook, they'll include items with those foods. Of course, there are people who identify as vegetarian who don't eat these foods and I don't know enough to speculate about how it might be used in other parts of the world.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lleeann2001 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
Where do you live that vegetarian options aren't available? In the US, there's usually at least one option for vegetarians except maybe in some really rural areas (and even then, you can usually get an omelette or a grilled cheese or something).janejellyroll wrote: »svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
Where do you live that vegetarian options aren't available? In the US, there's usually at least one option for vegetarians except maybe in some really rural areas (and even then, you can usually get an omelette or a grilled cheese or something).
Do veggie people eat cheese? Vegetarians that is...I know there are different types. But I'm not wise to all of it
In the US when many people use the word "vegetarian," they're referring to lacto-ovo vegetarians, who eat both eggs and dairy. If you see the word "vegetarian" on the menu or purchase a vegetarian cookbook, they'll include items with those foods. Of course, there are people who identify as vegetarian who don't eat these foods and I don't know enough to speculate about how it might be used in other parts of the world.
Yeah I do eat eggs and dairy (although a lot of my meals become vegan as I try to keep carbs low!)
I struggle in restaurants as lots of things have added sugar and carbs lurk in everything. A veggie lasagne is really the best I get in most restaurants near me and clearly that doesn’t work!
I love a good tuppaware with a packed lunch in but find that I get a lot of judgement and questions that I don’t feel qualified or ready to answer, as a fairly new keto deciple.2 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »nationalvillage3215 wrote: »For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.
May be of interest
https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/
I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).
And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto
They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.
I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.
I'm not sure where you're located, but here in the US, that $75 is the copay on top of a several-hundred-per-month insurance premium. Due to the pressures of insurance companies in a for-profit system, non-specialist doctors get on average 5-15 minutes with each patient. Specialists might get up to about 30 minutes. If you're lucky, you might get 60 for the initial consultation, depending on the nature of the doctor.
Getting more time with a doctor is extremely rare, and getting more than the most basic testing is even more rare. On the testing front, too, if you need additional tests, there's a good chance they won't be covered by insurance for one reason or another (fun fact - due to the way medical coding works, a sex hormone panel that is common for monitoring PCOS -- a condition with Diabetes as a common comorbid -- can end up denied by insurance companies, because it also happens to be used for fertility treatments; that panel runs upwards of $500 on its own if not covered).
For a Diabetic, it also means additional costs for medication. That cost goes up exponentially for insulin.
Even at the higher rate that was mentioned of something like $300/month, it can in fact be cheaper in the long run -- or prevent increasing medical costs in the case of those not quite yet on insulin -- to pay a concierge type doctor $200-300 a month, even on top of insurance premiums, just to avoid the costs of insulin. For others with medical needs that go beyond the scope/skill/time of the typical "brick and mortar" doctors, dropping insurance coverage to catastrophic and paying cash for concierge and telemed doctors is becoming an increasingly viable option here, particularly on the financial front. (And no, it's not some conspiracy. It's simply economics.)
Regarding what a telemed doctor can and can't do, the only thing they really can't do is get vitals such as pulse and blood pressure (and with the advancement of health-tech, it won't be long before they'll be able to get that, too). This is a big reason they're most commonly specialists, since those are generally relatively minor data points compared to the issue(s) that drove the person to seek their services. They can still order blood (and other body fluid based) tests, imaging, etc., all of which can be read without being physically in the room with the patient, and are frequently obtained at third party lab locations, anyway (even when visiting a "brick and mortar" doctor).
(Note for the sake of the discussion - concierge doctors are ones who are kept on retainer by their patients. They may or may not do telemedicine (telemed). Many telemedicine doctors are also concierge doctors, or concierge-like (ie - they may not do monthly/annual retainers, but keep active pay-as-you-go type of accounts).)6 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »
I never knew that. Thanks 🙂diannethegeek wrote: »HeliumIsNoble wrote: »Ooh, I espy an opportunity for a tangent. Did you know that according to clickbait articles, the ancient Greeks didn't see blue?
(I think it was a great deal more complex than that, in reality.)
They grouped blue and green together under a single color name, if I recall correctly. And I believe several other cultures did the same thing. But it's been a long time since my degree so I may have it wrong.
So there's a solid historical precedent to be made that the sky is actually green. We only call it blue as a modern invention.
Yep, this. Heck, I just admitted that I've done the potato hack on a different thread, we could have all sorts of fun with that one
And I don't even know what the heck the potato hack is!!
Like I said, there's a wealth of information to be gotten here 😁
Oh it's a dumpter fire waiting to happen
I actually proofread a book about the hack for a guy, (Tim Steele), I met on another forum, a few years back. He ended up publishing it and is now working on his second book. He's an advocate of short potato hacks, but the Potato Hack King is the Spud Fit Man, the man is a legend lol
https://www.today.com/health/spud-fit-man-loses-weight-eating-only-potatoes-year-t106144
Did Tim Steele steal your idea????? Oh for shame
Nope, there were quite a few people experimenting with the hack a few years ago-he and I were part of the shenanigans over at Mark's Daily Apple. He ended up writing a book about it and with my writing degree background I offered to help him do some proofreading. I've interacted with him a few times throughout the past few years, pretty nice guy.1 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »nationalvillage3215 wrote: »For me, getting a good amount of fiber is difficult on Keto. High fiber is pretty essential for digestive health. It is possible I guess to reach 30 grams/per day without fruit, lequmes, grains but I would have to eat an enormous amount of vegetables. I have been doing the Med. diet which also reduces inflammation and has helped my spinal arthritis.
May be of interest
https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/
I stopped reading once I realized that site is selling a $199 a month subscription (plus a $500 sign up fee).
And someone above thread said people weren't cashing in on keto
They are doctors. The service is for them to be your doctor if you’re T2D. Do you know any doctors that work for free?
They have published some very impressive studies showing a 60% reversal of T2D in one year. I don’t know many diabetics that wouldn’t save money reversing their diabetes even if using a private service like this.
I pay $75 to meet face to face with my doctor. That also includes getting health markers checked (blood pressure etc). No way would I pay $200 a month (plus a $500 sign up fee), for an internet doctor on some website.
I'm not sure where you're located, but here in the US, that $75 is the copay on top of a several-hundred-per-month insurance premium. Due to the pressures of insurance companies in a for-profit system, non-specialist doctors get on average 5-15 minutes with each patient. Specialists might get up to about 30 minutes. If you're lucky, you might get 60 for the initial consultation, depending on the nature of the doctor.
Getting more time with a doctor is extremely rare, and getting more than the most basic testing is even more rare. On the testing front, too, if you need additional tests, there's a good chance they won't be covered by insurance for one reason or another (fun fact - due to the way medical coding works, a sex hormone panel that is common for monitoring PCOS -- a condition with Diabetes as a common comorbid -- can end up denied by insurance companies, because it also happens to be used for fertility treatments; that panel runs upwards of $500 on its own if not covered).
For a Diabetic, it also means additional costs for medication. That cost goes up exponentially for insulin.
Even at the higher rate that was mentioned of something like $300/month, it can in fact be cheaper in the long run -- or prevent increasing medical costs in the case of those not quite yet on insulin -- to pay a concierge type doctor $200-300 a month, even on top of insurance premiums, just to avoid the costs of insulin. For others with medical needs that go beyond the scope/skill/time of the typical "brick and mortar" doctors, dropping insurance coverage to catastrophic and paying cash for concierge and telemed doctors is becoming an increasingly viable option here, particularly on the financial front. (And no, it's not some conspiracy. It's simply economics.)
Regarding what a telemed doctor can and can't do, the only thing they really can't do is get vitals such as pulse and blood pressure (and with the advancement of health-tech, it won't be long before they'll be able to get that, too). This is a big reason they're most commonly specialists, since those are generally relatively minor data points compared to the issue(s) that drove the person to seek their services. They can still order blood (and other body fluid based) tests, imaging, etc., all of which can be read without being physically in the room with the patient, and are frequently obtained at third party lab locations, anyway (even when visiting a "brick and mortar" doctor).
(Note for the sake of the discussion - concierge doctors are ones who are kept on retainer by their patients. They may or may not do telemedicine (telemed). Many telemedicine doctors are also concierge doctors, or concierge-like (ie - they may not do monthly/annual retainers, but keep active pay-as-you-go type of accounts).)
I'm in the U.S. (midwest)-since we have a high deductible HSA plan we pay out of pocket for pretty much all doctor appointments (we've paid out of pocket for everything from allergy testing to ER visits, blood work panels etc etc). All of our doctor's offices have patient cash discounts-if you're paying out of pocket you get a percentage off your bill. My GP's discount brings my out of pocket cost down to $75. Back when we were self-employed and had no insurance it was the same deal.
When I go in I get 30 minutes with him and we frequently go long (my doctor's background is in nutrition and sports medicine so we tend to get on all sorts of bunny trails lol).
Back when I was a prediabetic I had a different doctor. He has a similar discount option for cash paying patients (my husband still goes to his practice).2 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »
I never knew that. Thanks 🙂diannethegeek wrote: »HeliumIsNoble wrote: »Ooh, I espy an opportunity for a tangent. Did you know that according to clickbait articles, the ancient Greeks didn't see blue?
(I think it was a great deal more complex than that, in reality.)
They grouped blue and green together under a single color name, if I recall correctly. And I believe several other cultures did the same thing. But it's been a long time since my degree so I may have it wrong.
So there's a solid historical precedent to be made that the sky is actually green. We only call it blue as a modern invention.
Yep, this. Heck, I just admitted that I've done the potato hack on a different thread, we could have all sorts of fun with that one
And I don't even know what the heck the potato hack is!!
Like I said, there's a wealth of information to be gotten here 😁
Oh it's a dumpter fire waiting to happen
I actually proofread a book about the hack for a guy, (Tim Steele), I met on another forum, a few years back. He ended up publishing it and is now working on his second book. He's an advocate of short potato hacks, but the Potato Hack King is the Spud Fit Man, the man is a legend lol
https://www.today.com/health/spud-fit-man-loses-weight-eating-only-potatoes-year-t106144
Did Tim Steele steal your idea????? Oh for shame
Nope, there were quite a few people experimenting with the hack a few years ago-he and I were part of the shenanigans over at Mark's Daily Apple. He ended up writing a book about it and with my writing degree background I offered to help him do some proofreading. I've interacted with him a few times throughout the past few years, pretty nice guy.
I'm sorry I actually tried to delete that comment because I misread your quote. But I don't think I can delete my own comments.😉2 -
svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
You mean vegetarian plus keto? I've eaten vegetarian for significant periods of my life, and where I am it's pretty easy (had a work lunch today and it was easy to choose rice and black beans and salsa and guac and lettuce from the available options, which were kind of Cal-Mex themed (as interpreted in DC)). I've also done keto at times (not as a vegetarian) and basically was subtle about it -- at a restaurant it's easy, as you just do salad with protein on it, no croutons, make sure you can choose your dressing, or some sort of meat + veg. Sashimi, even. At work lunches that are sandwich-based I tried to take out the middle without drawing attention and go with whatever side salad might be available (I still do that, as I don't like spending calories on bread much of the time). If lunch is pizza (we sometimes get Giordano's), I would have had salad only. No one really noticed or cared, it was just sometimes annoying.
To do vegetarian plus keto at a restaurant/work thing would be harder -- ideally a salad (with hard boiled eggs, perhaps) would be available or something.2 -
svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
Whaaa? Vegetarian for 45 years now, and I could count the times where I'd needed to bring my own food on the fingers of one hand. Admittedly, I'm ovo-lacto, not strict . . . but I think it wouldn't take more than the other hand and half a foot to count, if I were vegan, or vegan-keto, even - well, maybe both feet for vegan-keto. One meal is a blip, nutritionally. I figure I can eat anything, for one meal (though I'm sensitive to making my hosts feel uncomfortable). I love my friends, the diverse-er, the better!
Personally, and intentionally and knowingly speaking only for myself, not others . . . I'd prefer a limited meal to the interpersonal implications of bringing my own "me only" food to someone else's home. (I always discuss my preferences at invite time, and work out an amicable approach in advance with my host).
To answer your explicit question: At invite time, I say "I eat this and this; but not this. I'd love to come and socialize with you!" Adding: "Can I bring (description of delicious generally enjoyed dish that I eat)?", if that seems appropriate. I feel zero need to explain why I eat the way I do, but a lot of motivation to figure out how I can be a good contributor to general group enjoyment.
I'd add this: If it's not a common sit-down, around a table, no one much notices what anyone else eats.1 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »
Isn't interesting that people saying it is possible to analyze studies and draw conclusions about them can point out potential issues in this study?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »There seems to be a lot you thinking the study was designed to do anything other than test the efficacy of a low carb diet.
Someone mentioned that people quit the study... people quit every study. For whatever reason. Literally someone could just decide that donuts are more important to them than not being diabetic. People literally do that every single day.
Knit picking irrelevant things you think matter doesn’t change the fact that 60% of the people reversed their diabetes. The reason that’s significant is because reputable resources like the ADA would have you believe it’s a progressive disease with no hope of reversal. Weight loss alone doesn’t show a 60% reversal rate. If weight was the factor that idea suggests, lean people wouldn’t become diabetic.
All your bias is showing.
As far as what is or isn't nitpicking about the study, I think you fundamentally disqualified yourself from making those assessments with your rejection of science as having valid methods over subjective experience based epistemology.
And yes, in obese and overweight individuals early in T2D, successfully losing and maintaining a 10% reduction in weight is about a guarantee to reversal. Good exercise programs can reduce markers in 4 weeks. Compliance is a huge factor.
Now can weight loss treat all T2D? No, it has both a lifestyle and genetic component. That I'm saying it can be treated that way isn't saying that is the whole etiology of the condition.
And yes, my bias does show. Understanding science will cause massive bias about studies based on their methodology. Bias isn't the same as being incorrect. If that is your standard, the Virta study has the issue of the doctors doing it all have financial relationships with Virta. But I frankly tried to avoid even bothering with that because I think it is the lowest tier of criticism of scientific research.
You say a lot of things. Most of which are incredibly one sided where you completely ignore anything anyone else says.
Meh
One sided in what sense. I haven't seen him take a position for or against keto, which is the topic. He is proscience. Why does that disturb you? You seem to be looking for an argument.
Seriously?!?! I gave someone a link to an article that happened to be on the Virta site and then had people jumping all over Virta as money hungry snake oil salesmen. I never made any claims of any kind. I only shared info I thought someone, not even those responding, might be interested in. And I’m the one looking for a fight? What a joke!
I’ve clearly said all along that It’s good for people to have options so they can find what’s right for them.
That’s argumentative?!?
Interesting
This is the debate section. Things get debated here.
I learned that quickly. lol Some people like not just healthy debate but fighting. That takes too much precious time from my life to engage in that. That is to say go back and forth. But that's why this area is here yes?.....I can do without the extra cortisol......from the stress you know? Teehee
Stress? What stress?
Verbal play is fun. 7 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »
Isn't interesting that people saying it is possible to analyze studies and draw conclusions about them can point out potential issues in this study?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »There seems to be a lot you thinking the study was designed to do anything other than test the efficacy of a low carb diet.
Someone mentioned that people quit the study... people quit every study. For whatever reason. Literally someone could just decide that donuts are more important to them than not being diabetic. People literally do that every single day.
Knit picking irrelevant things you think matter doesn’t change the fact that 60% of the people reversed their diabetes. The reason that’s significant is because reputable resources like the ADA would have you believe it’s a progressive disease with no hope of reversal. Weight loss alone doesn’t show a 60% reversal rate. If weight was the factor that idea suggests, lean people wouldn’t become diabetic.
All your bias is showing.
As far as what is or isn't nitpicking about the study, I think you fundamentally disqualified yourself from making those assessments with your rejection of science as having valid methods over subjective experience based epistemology.
And yes, in obese and overweight individuals early in T2D, successfully losing and maintaining a 10% reduction in weight is about a guarantee to reversal. Good exercise programs can reduce markers in 4 weeks. Compliance is a huge factor.
Now can weight loss treat all T2D? No, it has both a lifestyle and genetic component. That I'm saying it can be treated that way isn't saying that is the whole etiology of the condition.
And yes, my bias does show. Understanding science will cause massive bias about studies based on their methodology. Bias isn't the same as being incorrect. If that is your standard, the Virta study has the issue of the doctors doing it all have financial relationships with Virta. But I frankly tried to avoid even bothering with that because I think it is the lowest tier of criticism of scientific research.
You say a lot of things. Most of which are incredibly one sided where you completely ignore anything anyone else says.
Meh
One sided in what sense. I haven't seen him take a position for or against keto, which is the topic. He is proscience. Why does that disturb you? You seem to be looking for an argument.
Seriously?!?! I gave someone a link to an article that happened to be on the Virta site and then had people jumping all over Virta as money hungry snake oil salesmen. I never made any claims of any kind. I only shared info I thought someone, not even those responding, might be interested in. And I’m the one looking for a fight? What a joke!
I’ve clearly said all along that It’s good for people to have options so they can find what’s right for them.
That’s argumentative?!?
Interesting
This is the debate section. Things get debated here.
I learned that quickly. lol Some people like not just healthy debate but fighting. That takes too much precious time from my life to engage in that. That is to say go back and forth. But that's why this area is here yes?.....I can do without the extra cortisol......from the stress you know? Teehee
Stress? What stress?
Verbal play is fun.
😁0 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »lleeann2001 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »
Isn't interesting that people saying it is possible to analyze studies and draw conclusions about them can point out potential issues in this study?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »There seems to be a lot you thinking the study was designed to do anything other than test the efficacy of a low carb diet.
Someone mentioned that people quit the study... people quit every study. For whatever reason. Literally someone could just decide that donuts are more important to them than not being diabetic. People literally do that every single day.
Knit picking irrelevant things you think matter doesn’t change the fact that 60% of the people reversed their diabetes. The reason that’s significant is because reputable resources like the ADA would have you believe it’s a progressive disease with no hope of reversal. Weight loss alone doesn’t show a 60% reversal rate. If weight was the factor that idea suggests, lean people wouldn’t become diabetic.
All your bias is showing.
As far as what is or isn't nitpicking about the study, I think you fundamentally disqualified yourself from making those assessments with your rejection of science as having valid methods over subjective experience based epistemology.
And yes, in obese and overweight individuals early in T2D, successfully losing and maintaining a 10% reduction in weight is about a guarantee to reversal. Good exercise programs can reduce markers in 4 weeks. Compliance is a huge factor.
Now can weight loss treat all T2D? No, it has both a lifestyle and genetic component. That I'm saying it can be treated that way isn't saying that is the whole etiology of the condition.
And yes, my bias does show. Understanding science will cause massive bias about studies based on their methodology. Bias isn't the same as being incorrect. If that is your standard, the Virta study has the issue of the doctors doing it all have financial relationships with Virta. But I frankly tried to avoid even bothering with that because I think it is the lowest tier of criticism of scientific research.
You say a lot of things. Most of which are incredibly one sided where you completely ignore anything anyone else says.
Meh
One sided in what sense. I haven't seen him take a position for or against keto, which is the topic. He is proscience. Why does that disturb you? You seem to be looking for an argument.
Seriously?!?! I gave someone a link to an article that happened to be on the Virta site and then had people jumping all over Virta as money hungry snake oil salesmen. I never made any claims of any kind. I only shared info I thought someone, not even those responding, might be interested in. And I’m the one looking for a fight? What a joke!
I’ve clearly said all along that It’s good for people to have options so they can find what’s right for them.
That’s argumentative?!?
Interesting
This is the debate section. Things get debated here.
I learned that quickly. lol Some people like not just healthy debate but fighting. That takes too much precious time from my life to engage in that. That is to say go back and forth. But that's why this area is here yes?.....I can do without the extra cortisol......from the stress you know? Teehee
Stress? What stress?
Verbal play is fun.
😁
It's even worse for the pro-ketoers. Not only do they get those stressful glucocorticoids going, they have the stress of those glucocorticoids stimulating glucose production and metabolism.7 -
svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
You mean vegetarian plus keto?
To do vegetarian plus keto at a restaurant/work thing would be harder -- ideally a salad (with hard boiled eggs, perhaps) would be available or something.
Yeah I mean vegetarian and keto. I like the idea of a salad with eggs - I’ll ask for that next time I have brunch out! I’ve asked for scrambled eggs before with just eggs and no milk which had worked okay, but I tend to have to explain to my friends what I’m doing then!1 -
svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
Whaaa? Vegetarian for 45 years now, and I could count the times where I'd needed to bring my own food on the fingers of one hand. Admittedly, I'm ovo-lacto, not strict . . . but I think it wouldn't take more than the other hand and half a foot to count, if I were vegan, or vegan-keto, even - well, maybe both feet for vegan-keto. One meal is a blip, nutritionally. I figure I can eat anything, for one meal (though I'm sensitive to making my hosts feel uncomfortable). I love my friends, the diverse-er, the better!
Personally, and intentionally and knowingly speaking only for myself, not others . . . I'd prefer a limited meal to the interpersonal implications of bringing my own "me only" food to someone else's home. (I always discuss my preferences at invite time, and work out an amicable approach in advance with my host).
To answer your explicit question: At invite time, I say "I eat this and this; but not this. I'd love to come and socialize with you!" Adding: "Can I bring (description of delicious generally enjoyed dish that I eat)?", if that seems appropriate. I feel zero need to explain why I eat the way I do, but a lot of motivation to figure out how I can be a good contributor to general group enjoyment.
I'd add this: If it's not a common sit-down, around a table, no one much notices what anyone else eats.
I’d love to hear some of your recipes for vegan/vegetarian keto, especially to order in a restaurant because I seriously struggle!
Thanks for the suggestion about eating together as well - maybe I just need to be more upfront0 -
svlofthouse wrote: »svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
You mean vegetarian plus keto?
To do vegetarian plus keto at a restaurant/work thing would be harder -- ideally a salad (with hard boiled eggs, perhaps) would be available or something.
Yeah I mean vegetarian and keto. I like the idea of a salad with eggs - I’ll ask for that next time I have brunch out! I’ve asked for scrambled eggs before with just eggs and no milk which had worked okay, but I tend to have to explain to my friends what I’m doing then!
If it helps at all...I've seen any number of posts from members with all different ways of eating that are constantly questioned by family and coworkers etc.. "Aren't you on a diet?" type stuff....
Lots of us have dealt with that, but in the end, it's only you who pays for not following what you feel you ought to. Take their curiosity as a compliment. You're changing things for the better for you, and they noticed. 5 -
svlofthouse wrote: »svlofthouse wrote: »This discussion’s spiralled somewhat! I don’t mind because it was beginning to feel a little accusatory.
To get back to keto, I’d be interested to know how people explained what how and why they’re eating in that way. In social situations it can be hard to explain why you’ve brought your own food (I can’t really eat school or restaurant food as I’m a vegetarian).
Whaaa? Vegetarian for 45 years now, and I could count the times where I'd needed to bring my own food on the fingers of one hand. Admittedly, I'm ovo-lacto, not strict . . . but I think it wouldn't take more than the other hand and half a foot to count, if I were vegan, or vegan-keto, even - well, maybe both feet for vegan-keto. One meal is a blip, nutritionally. I figure I can eat anything, for one meal (though I'm sensitive to making my hosts feel uncomfortable). I love my friends, the diverse-er, the better!
Personally, and intentionally and knowingly speaking only for myself, not others . . . I'd prefer a limited meal to the interpersonal implications of bringing my own "me only" food to someone else's home. (I always discuss my preferences at invite time, and work out an amicable approach in advance with my host).
To answer your explicit question: At invite time, I say "I eat this and this; but not this. I'd love to come and socialize with you!" Adding: "Can I bring (description of delicious generally enjoyed dish that I eat)?", if that seems appropriate. I feel zero need to explain why I eat the way I do, but a lot of motivation to figure out how I can be a good contributor to general group enjoyment.
I'd add this: If it's not a common sit-down, around a table, no one much notices what anyone else eats.
I’d love to hear some of your recipes for vegan/vegetarian keto, especially to order in a restaurant because I seriously struggle!
Thanks for the suggestion about eating together as well - maybe I just need to be more upfront
Sorry, I wasn't clear: I'm vegetarian, not keto. But I think the socially-appropriate ways of handling any unusual way of eating are similar.
(I don't have a medical condition that requires keto, don't find carbs cause me appetite problems, lost weight fine without keto, love my legumes too much to do it for no reason. Nothing against it for those that need or enjoy it, though, and don't think we owe our friends a justification of how we eat, rather just enough communication so social events go smoothly without embarrassing, insulting, or inconveniencing anyone. IME, that part is easy.)5 -
-
I stopped reading at "repetitive bowel blowouts"
I also can't remain unbiased when I see anything from that outlet..so excusing myself here...5 -
32 pages and not one response that I can see from the OP...1
-
I stopped reading at "repetitive bowel blowouts"
I also can't remain unbiased when I see anything from that outlet..so excusing myself here...
lol...oh my goodness....i must repeat that " repetitive bowel blowouts "0 -
I stopped reading at "repetitive bowel blowouts"
I also can't remain unbiased when I see anything from that outlet..so excusing myself here...
Yeah...Fox News...
Btw, it goes on to list side effects for other diets, like vegans and deficient b12 and gas from eating too many greens.
Re: the runs...It's not the lack of fiber in many cases, I don't think. If you put an oil-slick in your coffee or sauces, what do you expect to happen?
Some keto folk research before beginning or get advice from those who are veterans (who actually did research before jumping in) and figure out that drinking oil and overloading the fat is not necessary. Many keto gurus on YouTube and around tell people they have to gorge on fat. Keto for weightloss is not about the fat in as much as it's about the lack of carbs and getting enough protein. Fat naturally fills in for the lack of carbs (calorie-wise), but slathering butter and cheese all over everything isn't the way to do things. Sure, cook veggies in some fat for the NOM factor. But beyond that, the fat in your meat and dairy, and modest fat for cooking and sauce, are sufficient.
I always advise people this macro priority:- Carbs are a ceiling in grams.
- Protein is a range based upon your height, weight, and activity level.
- Fill the rest of your calories with fat.
And also from that link:Sure, “Keto Crotch” is stealing the spotlight recently — but let’s not forget that smell can drift upwards, resulting in some seriously stank breath.
So stank crotch makes your breath smell bad?
Say what, now?
Keto Crotch sounds like a good supervillian. Stealing spotlights and what not...with her dastardly minion, Keto Breath. Looks like we need Carb Man (suitably dressed with his unders over his unnecessarily tight pants) to rescue us from this menace.
7 -
Ah I literally chuckled out loud at that bold therebaconslave wrote: »
I stopped reading at "repetitive bowel blowouts"
I also can't remain unbiased when I see anything from that outlet..so excusing myself here...
Yeah...Fox News...
Btw, it goes on to list side effects for other diets, like vegans and deficient b12 and gas from eating too many greens.
Re: the runs...It's not the lack of fiber in many cases, I don't think. If you put an oil-slick in your coffee or sauces, what do you expect to happen?
Some keto folk research before beginning or get advice from those who are veterans (who actually did research before jumping in) and figure out that drinking oil and overloading the fat is not necessary. Many keto gurus on YouTube and around tell people they have to gorge on fat. Keto for weightloss is not about the fat in as much as it's about the lack of carbs and getting enough protein. Fat naturally fills in for the lack of carbs (calorie-wise), but slathering butter and cheese all over everything isn't the way to do things. Sure, cook veggies in some fat for the NOM factor. But beyond that, the fat in your meat and dairy, and modest fat for cooking and sauce, are sufficient.
I always advise people this macro priority:- Carbs are a ceiling in grams.
- Protein is a range based upon your height, weight, and activity level.
- Fill the rest of your calories with fat.
And also from that link:Sure, “Keto Crotch” is stealing the spotlight recently — but let’s not forget that smell can drift upwards, resulting in some seriously stank breath.
So stank crotch makes your breath smell bad? Say what, now?
Keto Crotch sounds like a good supervillian. Stealing spotlights and what not...with her dastardly minion, Keto Breath. Looks like we need Carb Man (suitably dressed with his unders over his unnecessarily tight pants) to rescue us from this menace.
Thank you - you picked up on exactly what I meant. I mean, not only is keto crotch awful, but so is keto, and anything else not carb loaded!
Whatever side of the fence someone is on...that guy is not the one to get the details from
0
This discussion has been closed.
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