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Thoughts on the “glamourizing/normalizing” obesity vs body positivity conversations
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Ok so I haven't read all of this thread b/c it's a lot but I just find it so interesting (and sad) that folks on here are being so shameful to other folks of bigger body types and saying they need to pay a premium for just existing.
Some people will never be "healthy" even if they look it to your eyes because of chronic illness, cancer, etc. A cancer patient who has gained weight on chemo shouldn't have to pay for a more expensive airplane seat so they can sit comfortably while they're already going through hell. You're just kicking those people in the face, think about that. Cruel.
We put what we see as "healthy" in such a small box that it's impossible for so many people to attain or maintain. I might not look your narrow definition of "healthy" but I came from nearly dying of an eating disorder (and looking damn "healthy" at the time) and this is what health looks like to me. I'm not sure if y'all are here for weight loss or something else, but I just find this kind of shaming hypocritical and sad. We're all here on our own journeys. Let's support people no matter their reasons or end goals because it looks different for everyone.5 -
I'm of the, "don't assume" type (or I try to be!) and I'm glad I asked. I definitely didn't read what you wrote in the way you meant it but, after your clarification, we're in agreement.GaleHawkins wrote: »
Can you clarify what you mean in terms of what I bolded? I think I understand what you mean but I want to make sure that that's the case.GaleHawkins wrote: »I occasionally fall down the internet rabbit hole on this stuff. There are so many concerns that our current society is glamorourizing and normalizing obesity. But there are also Fat Studies departments highlighting fat people as a marginalized community. I understand there are studies that show negative feedback and taunts or self loathing decrease the chances people succeed in change. Self love and respect usually helps. (No source, so if you have alternative perspectives I’m interested.)
What are your thoughts on this debate?
I find myself very torn because I agree with some of both. I don’t think people who are classified obese should be hidden from the medical realities. Obese isn’t a dirty word. It’s accurate. (Am still in that category myself). But I also think subways and airplanes should have accessibile seating and not shame obese passengers.
Glamorizing any body size be it obesity or the Barbie doll look is negative as I see it. I am no longer obese because I decided to improve my health and health markers with no focus on scale numbers. Fixing the health failures in my life due to my former way of eating fixed my obesity. Healthy people do not typically become obese but first are dealing with one or more health failures before obesity becomes another health concern.
Without self respect and love we can not truly respect and love others.
Nothing is sure in life so run with your own understanding. Basically since we do not know the underlying cause of why another person is obese we should keep our negative thoughts to ourselves or better yet never have such thoughts about another human.1 -
I'm of the, "don't assume" type (or I try to be!) and I'm glad I asked. I definitely didn't read what you wrote in the way you meant it but, after your clarification, we're in agreement.GaleHawkins wrote: »
Can you clarify what you mean in terms of what I bolded? I think I understand what you mean but I want to make sure that that's the case.GaleHawkins wrote: »I occasionally fall down the internet rabbit hole on this stuff. There are so many concerns that our current society is glamorourizing and normalizing obesity. But there are also Fat Studies departments highlighting fat people as a marginalized community. I understand there are studies that show negative feedback and taunts or self loathing decrease the chances people succeed in change. Self love and respect usually helps. (No source, so if you have alternative perspectives I’m interested.)
What are your thoughts on this debate?
I find myself very torn because I agree with some of both. I don’t think people who are classified obese should be hidden from the medical realities. Obese isn’t a dirty word. It’s accurate. (Am still in that category myself). But I also think subways and airplanes should have accessibile seating and not shame obese passengers.
Glamorizing any body size be it obesity or the Barbie doll look is negative as I see it. I am no longer obese because I decided to improve my health and health markers with no focus on scale numbers. Fixing the health failures in my life due to my former way of eating fixed my obesity. Healthy people do not typically become obese but first are dealing with one or more health failures before obesity becomes another health concern.
Without self respect and love we can not truly respect and love others.
Nothing is sure in life so run with your own understanding. Basically since we do not know the underlying cause of why another person is obese we should keep our negative thoughts to ourselves or better yet never have such thoughts about another human.
I agree with the above too (what you quoted), but it seems non-responsive to your prior question. Pretty sure the prior comment meant that no one gets overweight without some underlying medical issue, that gaining weight is necessarily a symptom of being sick, so anyone who becomes overweight is necessarily sick. The poster has said that over and over, as if calories were irrelevant.4 -
BuiltLikeAPeep wrote: »"Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really."
Enabling food addicts? You mean like when someone says "Food addiction is a disease- you can't help shoveling food in your mouth. " Or when a doctor says "Hey here's a pill that will help you lose weight." Oh, wait- that's what we say to drug addicts and alcoholics.
I agree with you that food addicts (or people who overeat without having an "addiction" which I think is far more common) are not "enabled" any more than anyone else. But you seem to be going too far the other way and claiming that addicts and alcoholics are excused and not told that's not acceptable, which is a pretty off take IMO.
With respect to your "quotes," that's not really what is said to drug addicts and alcoholics. (I don't think it's a proper comparison, really, but most who are dealing with drug addicts and alcoholics don't think it's just okay, that the person can't help it and has no responsibility. They might understand that stopping is difficult, as most understand that weight loss is difficult, and usually they have some anger, if they are family members or close to them, vs. a medical professional. And if by pill you are referring to something like methadone or other options to help with withdrawal, that's really nothing like a weight loss drug, none of which are really good.)
(I think it's far more likely people will say "your behavior is not okay, you have a problem" to someone with a problem with alcohol or other drugs than a fat person. However, I also think that's appropriate, as the former group are affecting others more and more likely to harm others/shirk responsibilities than the latter group, so most of us are likely to think it's none of our business if someone is overweight, and that they of course are aware. It's pretty hard to be fat and not know it or feel uncomfortable about it often enough, IME.)
But again, the idea that we think more positively of someone who is actively addicted to drugs or alcohol (vs. someone hiding it and not yet known) than someone overweight is a strange notion to me.Food addicts are told "You're doing this to yourself- just lose weight."
Yes, doctors tell overweight or obese people that it's a health risk or, in some cases, contributing to health conditions, and that they should lose weight. That's appropriate, I think treating it as a medical issue is important.(As if DA and alcoholics aren't doing this to themselves. )
Pretty sure doctors will tell them about the health issues too -- doctors ask people how much they drink, etc. (and know lots of people lie).That's probably why many people stay obese. I have never had a doctor (even when asked) to refer me to a nutritionist. I have never had a doctor offer me diet pills (yet a friend of mine who was only 40 lbs into overweight BMI was prescribed Adipex by the same dr).
So this seems weird, as the doctor seems to have given the friend the help you think you need, so hardly some "doctors won't help." Did you ask why the pills were not prescribed to you or why you could not get a referral to a dietitian? Did you consider changing doctors?
I say this as someone who found it more helpful to learn about nutrition and weight loss myself vs. going to a dietitian, and who thinks diet pills are dangerous or bunk or a temporary crutch and would not ever take them. However, I do think a dietitian can be helpful for some, and that counseling can be helpful, and both should be offered (and often are).I have yet to have a dr refer me to a sleep clinic or prescribe me a CPAP for my sleep apnea (which I've had my entire life and could die in my sleep) I was just told to lose the weight.
If you are diagnosed with sleep apnea (which I'm not sure is possible without a sleep study), then this seems odd, as CPAPs are normally prescribed, I'd change doctors.
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Using the example of marginalizing smokers leading to reduced smoking rates, I think we'd need to focus on what was really going on. It's not a person that was shunned, it was a behavior. Smokers weren't banned from establishments, they just weren't allowed to smoke there. While I think there are aspects of society that shamed smokers as too weak or lazy to manage to quit, I don't think that has ever been a common pov. In fact, most people I know acknowledge how hard it is too quit and feel sorry for folks who can't manage to quit the habit.
Obese people are already shamed far more than that, and there's no way to shun the behavior without shunning the person. You can't say you can come to my party, but if you want to be obese tonight you'll have to do it on the porch. There's just no way to make the two analagous.
Regardless, I know lots of ex smokers, and none of them credit being shamed for pushing them to quit. The expense is what I hear most often, followed by being scared every time they developed a cough that they had given themselves cancer, and getting pregnant/having kids in the house and not wanting to risk hurting them.
I don't mean to be dismissive, but it seems like common sense to me that shaming someone for something that comforts them is counter productive. I can think of several habits that people can acquire (especially when they're young) to self sooth that society tries to shame out of them with little success or even ill effect.11 -
Why do people feel the need to judge other people in the first place? Do they really think anyone who is at all overweight (not to mention clinically or morbidly obese) who has gone to the doctor for any reason in the last 20 years doesn't know the effects of being overweight and obesity? We live in an age where doctors blame everything up to an including the common cold on being overweight. We know, we get it. it's not as easy for some as others, but rubbing their nose in it like a misbehaving dog doesn't solve anything. Is it really any of their business? Why do people feel the need to have an opinion on another person's life or pass judgement on them ? On first sight of me they would likely think I'm fat, obese, don't care about myself or my health, and god forbid how it affects them. Unless they actually took the time to talk to me they would never know what I am dealing with, what struggles i've had, or what successes. Just negativity because my body size is offensive. They would never know that in the last year I have lost 70 lbs, or that I plateaued for close to 7 months and struggled every day to kick start that weight loss again (finally got it going again recently!). That i still know, despite my success, I still have a ways to goal to reach my goal. Or that in the last 6 months I have been taken off of high blood pressure meds and Metformin. The only prescriptions I have left are for neuropathy and allergies. You would never know the simple joy and elation I felt when I flew to Phoenix earlier this year to take care of my elderly parents and for the first time in years I could sit in an airplane seat reasonably comfortably and without an extender.
I'm sorry if this comes across as a bit of personal attacks. But the simple fact of the matter is this issue not something people should feel any sense of entitlement to an opinion about unless they have been in the other person's place, and even then they should feel empathy, not judgment.
But people judge/appraise/assess one another all the time, every day, everywhere. I'm sure if you saw me, you would judge me based on my hair, clothing, age, weight, the car I drive, my race, my visible fitness level, the way I walk, the way I speak, the language I speak, my jewelry, who I am with, how I treat others, etc etc etc.
That's just how people work. There's no escaping it.
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goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »On the topic of extra wide seats, I think that they should be made available on airplanes, but at a premium cost, in the same way that tall people pay for an upgrade for seats with more leg room. And with respect to hospital beds (mentioned up thread), hospitals should be changing to serve their demographics. Not really debatable in my mind.
That exists now, it's called Business or First Class.
I don’t travel much so I’m no expert, but the couple of times I looked at Business or First Class the cost was much more than double the cost of a seat in economy/coach. The solution mentioned earlier, to buy two seats would be cheaper (but still not entirely comfortable). To me, turning a three seat row into a two seat row and selling the seats at a premium seems like an easy solution. If someone were to make the argument that the airline would be “normalizing obesity” with that change, I would disagree. If they made that change and then offered it with no premium, maybe. But that seems problematic anyway. How would they determine who gets those seats?
How much more the seats are depends on how much of a discount you got the economy seats for. I get stuck paying close to full fare a lot (since I travel for business and may buy without much lead time or go at times when they tend to assume its business travelers and not offer much of a discount) and then it's often not that expensive to upgrade. I sometimes do (paying out of my own pocket for the upgrade) if the flight is long enough to make it worthwhile and the cost low enough. In those cases it is nothing like the cost of buying two seats. It also costs extra to get almost any decent seats these days unless you take your chances and a good seat ends up being among the last ones left. They charge more not just for the extra leg room, but any desirable location, varying in cost based on what they think people will pay. First class also avoids the fee for checking if you need to check a bag or two.
Interesting. Can you give me an example of what "not that expensive to upgrade" means?
I just looked up a flight from Toronto to Naples Florida, that cost $872 Cdn for economy and $3714 for Business Class roundtrip. Then when I checked your example of short notice, the price for an economy seat went up to $2118, but the Business Class price also went up, to $9112. In both cases, buying two economy seats would be cheaper than Business Class.
Earlier in the thread @NovusDies said "As a person who has bought 2 airline seats for quite some time I can say there is very little that is accommodating to larger people." I've seen firsthand people buy two seats in economy to accommodate their size.
Maybe we just aren't savvy in purchasing airline tickets? (No sarcasm intended there).
I found an interesting article on the topic. I was reminded that in Canada (where I live), obesity is treated as disabled and arrangements are made to accommodate obese people at no extra charge. They need to have their derrieres measured by a physician to qualify however. Air France offers a 25% discount on the second seat. I just skimmed, but it seems that most US airlines require obese passengers to purchase a second seat.
https://www.smartertravel.com/airline-obesity-policies/
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They've had to reduce capacity on Washington State Ferries to account for the higher average rider weight, for what it's worth.7
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goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »On the topic of extra wide seats, I think that they should be made available on airplanes, but at a premium cost, in the same way that tall people pay for an upgrade for seats with more leg room. And with respect to hospital beds (mentioned up thread), hospitals should be changing to serve their demographics. Not really debatable in my mind.
That exists now, it's called Business or First Class.
I don’t travel much so I’m no expert, but the couple of times I looked at Business or First Class the cost was much more than double the cost of a seat in economy/coach. The solution mentioned earlier, to buy two seats would be cheaper (but still not entirely comfortable). To me, turning a three seat row into a two seat row and selling the seats at a premium seems like an easy solution. If someone were to make the argument that the airline would be “normalizing obesity” with that change, I would disagree. If they made that change and then offered it with no premium, maybe. But that seems problematic anyway. How would they determine who gets those seats?
How much more the seats are depends on how much of a discount you got the economy seats for. I get stuck paying close to full fare a lot (since I travel for business and may buy without much lead time or go at times when they tend to assume its business travelers and not offer much of a discount) and then it's often not that expensive to upgrade. I sometimes do (paying out of my own pocket for the upgrade) if the flight is long enough to make it worthwhile and the cost low enough. In those cases it is nothing like the cost of buying two seats. It also costs extra to get almost any decent seats these days unless you take your chances and a good seat ends up being among the last ones left. They charge more not just for the extra leg room, but any desirable location, varying in cost based on what they think people will pay. First class also avoids the fee for checking if you need to check a bag or two.
Interesting. Can you give me an example of what "not that expensive to upgrade" means?
I've been able to get an upgrade between Chicago and NYC for $90, and between Portland (OR) or Houston and Chicago for $150. While not super cheap, way less than a second seat would have been (hypothetically, it wasn't something I was considering).Maybe we just aren't savvy in purchasing airline tickets? (No sarcasm intended there).
If you get a discounted fare (which you usually do it buying in advance and being flexible about times), it will cost significantly more to upgrade. So no, it's more being stuck with extra expensive flights in the first class, and I'm talking domestic, not international.
But even so it depends -- I've had $550 (so not a terrible price) round trip between Portland and Chicago and got offered a $200 to upgrade option in the past. And you can subtract from that any amounts you would have paid to check a bag or to upgrade to a better non-first class seat.
Also if you fly a lot/have a credit card that gives miles as a perk, you can use miles toward upgrading.2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »They've had to reduce capacity on Washington State Ferries to account for the higher average rider weight, for what it's worth.
That reminds me, when I flew on a very small plane in Costa Rico, they weighed my bags and they asked my weight. I imagine some would find this offensive or shaming. It's not. It's information they need to have. I imagine the ferry and larger airplanes have programs for this, but this was a very small airplane (that landed in an unpaved airfield).8 -
Ok so I haven't read all of this thread b/c it's a lot but I just find it so interesting (and sad) that folks on here are being so shameful to other folks of bigger body types and saying they need to pay a premium for just existing.
Some people will never be "healthy" even if they look it to your eyes because of chronic illness, cancer, etc. A cancer patient who has gained weight on chemo shouldn't have to pay for a more expensive airplane seat so they can sit comfortably while they're already going through hell. You're just kicking those people in the face, think about that. Cruel.
We put what we see as "healthy" in such a small box that it's impossible for so many people to attain or maintain. I might not look your narrow definition of "healthy" but I came from nearly dying of an eating disorder (and looking damn "healthy" at the time) and this is what health looks like to me. I'm not sure if y'all are here for weight loss or something else, but I just find this kind of shaming hypocritical and sad. We're all here on our own journeys. Let's support people no matter their reasons or end goals because it looks different for everyone.
Why can't we have a rational conversation about who is to bear the costs of obesity, society or the obese person, without people who make a case that it be the obese person being attacked for "shaming"?14 -
goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »On the topic of extra wide seats, I think that they should be made available on airplanes, but at a premium cost, in the same way that tall people pay for an upgrade for seats with more leg room. And with respect to hospital beds (mentioned up thread), hospitals should be changing to serve their demographics. Not really debatable in my mind.
That exists now, it's called Business or First Class.
I don’t travel much so I’m no expert, but the couple of times I looked at Business or First Class the cost was much more than double the cost of a seat in economy/coach. The solution mentioned earlier, to buy two seats would be cheaper (but still not entirely comfortable). To me, turning a three seat row into a two seat row and selling the seats at a premium seems like an easy solution. If someone were to make the argument that the airline would be “normalizing obesity” with that change, I would disagree. If they made that change and then offered it with no premium, maybe. But that seems problematic anyway. How would they determine who gets those seats?
How much more the seats are depends on how much of a discount you got the economy seats for. I get stuck paying close to full fare a lot (since I travel for business and may buy without much lead time or go at times when they tend to assume its business travelers and not offer much of a discount) and then it's often not that expensive to upgrade. I sometimes do (paying out of my own pocket for the upgrade) if the flight is long enough to make it worthwhile and the cost low enough. In those cases it is nothing like the cost of buying two seats. It also costs extra to get almost any decent seats these days unless you take your chances and a good seat ends up being among the last ones left. They charge more not just for the extra leg room, but any desirable location, varying in cost based on what they think people will pay. First class also avoids the fee for checking if you need to check a bag or two.
Interesting. Can you give me an example of what "not that expensive to upgrade" means?
I just looked up a flight from Toronto to Naples Florida, that cost $872 Cdn for economy and $3714 for Business Class roundtrip. Then when I checked your example of short notice, the price for an economy seat went up to $2118, but the Business Class price also went up, to $9112. In both cases, buying two economy seats would be cheaper than Business Class.
Earlier in the thread @NovusDies said "As a person who has bought 2 airline seats for quite some time I can say there is very little that is accommodating to larger people." I've seen firsthand people buy two seats in economy to accommodate their size.
Maybe we just aren't savvy in purchasing airline tickets? (No sarcasm intended there).
I found an interesting article on the topic. I was reminded that in Canada (where I live), obesity is treated as disabled and arrangements are made to accommodate obese people at no extra charge. They need to have their derrieres measured by a physician to qualify however. Air France offers a 25% discount on the second seat. I just skimmed, but it seems that most US airlines require obese passengers to purchase a second seat.
https://www.smartertravel.com/airline-obesity-policies/
I like this. The obese person gets help with accommodations, but must take a step which provides the opportunity for medical assistance.
Do you have a link to the article?1 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Ok so I haven't read all of this thread b/c it's a lot but I just find it so interesting (and sad) that folks on here are being so shameful to other folks of bigger body types and saying they need to pay a premium for just existing.
Some people will never be "healthy" even if they look it to your eyes because of chronic illness, cancer, etc. A cancer patient who has gained weight on chemo shouldn't have to pay for a more expensive airplane seat so they can sit comfortably while they're already going through hell. You're just kicking those people in the face, think about that. Cruel.
We put what we see as "healthy" in such a small box that it's impossible for so many people to attain or maintain. I might not look your narrow definition of "healthy" but I came from nearly dying of an eating disorder (and looking damn "healthy" at the time) and this is what health looks like to me. I'm not sure if y'all are here for weight loss or something else, but I just find this kind of shaming hypocritical and sad. We're all here on our own journeys. Let's support people no matter their reasons or end goals because it looks different for everyone.
Why can't we have a rational conversation about who is to bear the costs of obesity, society or the obese person, without people who make a case that it be the obese person being attacked for "shaming"?
I agree. A certain degree of "you have to pay for the resources you use" is fair and I don't consider it shaming. It can be shame-inducing, but that's different and up to the person to process.
I remember when I started middle school I was already obese. The uniform for middle school was different, and students had to buy fabric from the school and take it to an approved tailor. I remember feeling uneasy when I had to pay more than other students. When I expressed that to my mom she said fabric is sold by length, and you need more length for a uniform that fits. It's fair to pay more when you buy more, and that's all there is to it, don't overthink it. "Don't overthink it" has stuck with me since.17 -
This is such a trigger shot topic. Bluntly as a fat person who is actively losing weight to become more of my worthy ideal of success, its a damning reality that yes everyone has worth and should be valued but sadly our society esp if you have any desire to not just be or live average being fat is not going to cut it.
I missed alot of the reckless behavior as I was far too fat to partake and now I seek to level up and be someone that is together. All my success in career and beating the odds is great but will not be heard while at my current size.
There’s layers or different life experiences as well that take race and gender in them as well but knowing this site isn’t overly diverse in some ways I will digress.
Being healthy and not a burden on society because donuts is life or because it’s a maladaptive coping mechanism should be the focus for everyone. If it was just weight everyone would be ideal range.4 -
TheChristianSimone wrote: »This is such a trigger shot topic. Bluntly as a fat person who is actively losing weight to become more of my worthy ideal of success, its a damning reality that yes everyone has worth and should be valued but sadly our society esp if you have any desire to not just be or live average being fat is not going to cut it.
I missed alot of the reckless behavior as I was far too fat to partake and now I seek to level up and be someone that is together. All my success in career and beating the odds is great but will not be heard while at my current size.
There’s layers or different life experiences as well that take race and gender in them as well but knowing this site isn’t overly diverse in some ways I will digress.
Being healthy and not a burden on society because donuts is life or because it’s a maladaptive coping mechanism should be the focus for everyone. If it was just weight everyone would be ideal range.
Responding to what I bolded, not everyone who is overweight or obese uses food as a coping mechanism. I would imagine a fair amount of people don't in fact. Yes, lots of people use food (or a lack of food) as that, but it is far from universal.7 -
YouTube - Every Damn Day Fitness. Alan talks about this on lots of his vids.3
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Why can't we have a rational conversation about who is to bear the costs of obesity, society or the obese person, without people who make a case that it be the obese person being attacked for "shaming"?[/quote]
Well, we live in the era of outrage, where a different/challenging perspective, opinion, or philosophy is seen by many (frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category) as sinister, fearsome, and threatening. In the outrage culture there is very little tolerance for dissent -- the dissenters are therefore classified 'haters' or 'shamers' or phobic.
Now that I've posted that, I'm sure lots of people on this forum now see me as a horrible hateful bigot.
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Why can't we have a rational conversation about who is to bear the costs of obesity, society or the obese person, without people who make a case that it be the obese person being attacked for "shaming"?
If by "frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category" you mean "everyone"...Well, we live in the era of outrage, where a different/challenging perspective, opinion, or philosophy is seen by many (frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category) as sinister, fearsome, and threatening. In the outrage culture there is very little tolerance for dissent -- the dissenters are therefore classified 'haters' or 'shamers' or phobic.
Now that I've posted that, I'm sure lots of people on this forum now see me as a horrible hateful bigot.
I'm not sure there was ever much tolerance for dissent. How much that dissent has been suppressed over the course of history has waxed and waned in various countries and regions to varying degrees, but people don't typically like it when their ideas are threatened. Genocides have happened and wars have been fought over dissenting ideas. People wanting their view of the world to be to be the "right one" is universal, no one group has a monopoly on that.6 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »They've had to reduce capacity on Washington State Ferries to account for the higher average rider weight, for what it's worth.
That reminds me, when I flew on a very small plane in Costa Rico, they weighed my bags and they asked my weight. I imagine some would find this offensive or shaming. It's not. It's information they need to have. I imagine the ferry and larger airplanes have programs for this, but this was a very small airplane (that landed in an unpaved airfield).
Flying out of Maui, the last 3 rows of our Airbus A320 which holds about 160 people were empty due to weight and the short runway.
Yeah I know people who have been moved to different parts of the plane (including upgraded up to first class) due to weight distribution related things. I have zero problem with that, your story above about the last three rows of the Airbus being empty, or asking for customers' weight prior to traveling on a plane. I'd rather that than a plane malfunction and/or not be able to fly due to weight related issues.4 -
Why can't we have a rational conversation about who is to bear the costs of obesity, society or the obese person, without people who make a case that it be the obese person being attacked for "shaming"?
Well, we live in the era of outrage, where a different/challenging perspective, opinion, or philosophy is seen by many (frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category) as sinister, fearsome, and threatening. In the outrage culture there is very little tolerance for dissent -- the dissenters are therefore classified 'haters' or 'shamers' or phobic.
Now that I've posted that, I'm sure lots of people on this forum now see me as a horrible hateful bigot.
It's a sign of how good things are. The hostility comes from the truth inherent within the dissenters. When they cannot debate on the merits other means must be implemented, which is why conversations degrade to ad hominem.
"A harmful truth is better than a useful lie." - Thomas Mann
Humans process information in a comparative manner, so perception is relative. When one has lived without any real suffering, imagined slights are elevated so that these seem real. We also do not stress historical relativism, so what is considered "shaming" today would be normal behavior a decade ago. Like many things the solution is to simply change the perspective. Which highlights that the goal of movements like this is not to provide solutions.10 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Why can't we have a rational conversation about who is to bear the costs of obesity, society or the obese person, without people who make a case that it be the obese person being attacked for "shaming"?Well, we live in the era of outrage, where a different/challenging perspective, opinion, or philosophy is seen by many (frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category) as sinister, fearsome, and threatening. In the outrage culture there is very little tolerance for dissent -- the dissenters are therefore classified 'haters' or 'shamers' or phobic.
Now that I've posted that, I'm sure lots of people on this forum now see me as a horrible hateful bigot.
When I was diagnosed in 1999, all indications were that this would be a permanent disabling condition. What helped me not see myself as a victim was Carolyn Myss's Why People Don't Heal and How They Can.
Now, there's a lot of magical thinking in there, but I found the main message of "Don't lead with your wounds" / "You are far more than your medical condition" very empowering.8 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Why can't we have a rational conversation about who is to bear the costs of obesity, society or the obese person, without people who make a case that it be the obese person being attacked for "shaming"?Well, we live in the era of outrage, where a different/challenging perspective, opinion, or philosophy is seen by many (frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category) as sinister, fearsome, and threatening. In the outrage culture there is very little tolerance for dissent -- the dissenters are therefore classified 'haters' or 'shamers' or phobic.
Now that I've posted that, I'm sure lots of people on this forum now see me as a horrible hateful bigot.
When I was diagnosed in 1999, all indications were that this would be a permanent disabling condition. What helped me not see myself as a victim was Carolyn Myss's Why People Don't Heal and How They Can.
Now, there's a lot of magical thinking in there, but I found the main message of "Don't lead with your wounds" / "You are far more than your medical condition" very empowering.
Read the same thing after suffering a career ending injury - absolutely life changing.3 -
edit: I don't know that it's worth my energy debating social movements, who might or might not consider themselves to be part of a movement, and what social and political gains have been achieved over the decades due in part to movements.
If it were in person or another forum then I'd it might be a bit different.5 -
If by "frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category" you mean "everyone"...
People wanting their view of the world to be to be the "right one" is universal, no one group has a monopoly on that.
Does this mean you believe "everyone" sees themselves as victims? If yes, I completely disagree.
And plenty of people are comfortable with others who have different views. I believe my view is correct, but I don't need or expect everyone to agree. And I don't label those who disagree with me as bigots or haters or phobics.2 -
If by "frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category" you mean "everyone"...
People wanting their view of the world to be to be the "right one" is universal, no one group has a monopoly on that.
Does this mean you believe "everyone" sees themselves as victims? If yes, I completely disagree.
And plenty of people are comfortable with others who have different views. I believe my view is correct, but I don't need or expect everyone to agree. And I don't label those who disagree with me as bigots or haters or phobics.
Just an FYI, I think you keep inadvertently making formatting errors with the quotes.
That said, when someone says or does something that's racist, anti semitic, transphobic (gasp! there's that suffix), etc I'm not afraid to call the action what it is. And before someone does the, "but people who complain don't actually change anything!" I personally contributed to amending of multiple county and state anti-discrimination laws and have worked with multiple educational institutions to change various policies. I certainly don't expect that people with agree with each other on everything and I don't expect to be able to convince people that what they're saying or doing is harmful. That said, when someone's actions are dehumanising, dangerous, and/or discriminatory I am not just going to roll over and agree if I have the energy and resources to do something about it.
It's funny (and sad), so many people who prescribe to the very faulty "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality get very offended people do just that.15 -
@aokoye is awesome. 🙂6
-
If by "frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category" you mean "everyone"...
People wanting their view of the world to be to be the "right one" is universal, no one group has a monopoly on that.
Does this mean you believe "everyone" sees themselves as victims? If yes, I completely disagree.
And plenty of people are comfortable with others who have different views. I believe my view is correct, but I don't need or expect everyone to agree. And I don't label those who disagree with me as bigots or haters or phobics.
Just an FYI, I think you keep inadvertently making formatting errors with the quotes.
That said, when someone says or does something that's racist, anti semitic, transphobic (gasp! there's that suffix), etc I'm not afraid to call the action what it is. And before someone does the, "but people who complain don't actually change anything!" I personally contributed to amending of multiple county and state anti-discrimination laws and have worked with multiple educational institutions to change various policies. I certainly don't expect that people with agree with each other on everything and I don't expect to be able to convince people that what they're saying or doing is harmful. That said, when someone's actions are dehumanising, dangerous, and/or discriminatory I am not just going to roll over and agree if I have the energy and resources to do something about it.
It's funny (and sad), so many people who prescribe to the very faulty "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality get very offended people do just that.
I had a discussion on a certain political forum once about just that and..I'm still at a loss for words how to describe it lol.
That said, there's a distinct difference between people who complain, and then DO, and people who simply complain. You are very clearly a doer, others are content (for lack of a better word atm) to simply sit back and complain never developing or following a course of action.
I don't really want to get into all the various ways that people short change each other and themselves (I've been guilty of it too) because, while it could easily fit into the scope of this topic, I'm not sure hammering out text for an hour would actually accomplish a lot here, other than folks who read here getting to know each other a bit better.
That's not a bad thing by the way...I've been losing my stomach for long debates simply because it's so impersonal online..it's harder to contribute to the discussion given that.
3 -
And plenty of people are comfortable with others who have different views. I believe my view is correct, but I don't need or expect everyone to agree. And I don't label those who disagree with me as bigots or haters or phobics.
Most of us do I think
It's very difficult online, and in real life at times, to separate people who are passionate about their beliefs, and people who have passion without any type of discernment. Ad hom attackers and such.
One of my best online experiences was a running, almost year long debate about various topics and the topics points segued into. This gentleman was literally the polar opposite of me in lifestyle and belief systems. We were always "yelling" at each other, but never denigrating or anything else negative, and at the end of the day we joked everything off and caught up later.
What was really telling were the odd posts from other forum members, directed at each of us, that were outright attacks, some very creative lol, but always negative, or outright mean. Until mods put a stop to it anyway.
My point behind sharing that is that we developed a very real online friendship and each of our respective stereotypes of the others various quirks were broken down. It took a lot of work, patience and time.
That work, patience and time is what's required here, or any platform where values and long held beliefs are being challenged.
Yes, there are those out there who simply hit and run - most folks in my experience though, will respond in kind. Be civil, explain thoroughly, make allowances for humanities quirks and that individuals life experiences and who knows? Might make a friend.8 -
If by "frequently those who see themselves in a 'victim' category" you mean "everyone"...
People wanting their view of the world to be to be the "right one" is universal, no one group has a monopoly on that.
Does this mean you believe "everyone" sees themselves as victims? If yes, I completely disagree.
And plenty of people are comfortable with others who have different views. I believe my view is correct, but I don't need or expect everyone to agree. And I don't label those who disagree with me as bigots or haters or phobics.
Just an FYI, I think you keep inadvertently making formatting errors with the quotes.
That said, when someone says or does something that's racist, anti semitic, transphobic (gasp! there's that suffix), etc I'm not afraid to call the action what it is. And before someone does the, "but people who complain don't actually change anything!" I personally contributed to amending of multiple county and state anti-discrimination laws and have worked with multiple educational institutions to change various policies. I certainly don't expect that people with agree with each other on everything and I don't expect to be able to convince people that what they're saying or doing is harmful. That said, when someone's actions are dehumanising, dangerous, and/or discriminatory I am not just going to roll over and agree if I have the energy and resources to do something about it.
It's funny (and sad), so many people who prescribe to the very faulty "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality get very offended people do just that.
I'll let @7elizamae speak for herself, but the point I was trying to make is just because I disagree with someone, doesn't mean I'm bullying or dehumanizing them. A poster was called out for bullying earlier in the thread, and from my POV he was just offering his opinion.
Carolyn Myss's point is that when people are overly wrapped up in the (admittedly terrible) things that happen to them, they can fall prey to what she calls woundology, which may also be thought of as victimhood.9 -
And plenty of people are comfortable with others who have different views. I believe my view is correct, but I don't need or expect everyone to agree. And I don't label those who disagree with me as bigots or haters or phobics.
Most of us do I think
It's very difficult online, and in real life at times, to separate people who are passionate about their beliefs, and people who have passion without any type of discernment. Ad hom attackers and such.
One of my best online experiences was a running, almost year long debate about various topics and the topics points segued into. This gentleman was literally the polar opposite of me in lifestyle and belief systems. We were always "yelling" at each other, but never denigrating or anything else negative, and at the end of the day we joked everything off and caught up later.
What was really telling were the odd posts from other forum members, directed at each of us, that were outright attacks, some very creative lol, but always negative, or outright mean. Until mods put a stop to it anyway.
My point behind sharing that is that we developed a very real online friendship and each of our respective stereotypes of the others various quirks were broken down. It took a lot of work, patience and time.
That work, patience and time is what's required here, or any platform where values and long held beliefs are being challenged.
Yes, there are those out there who simply hit and run - most folks in my experience though, will respond in kind. Be civil, explain thoroughly, make allowances for humanities quirks and that individuals life experiences and who knows? Might make a friend.
I don't believe it's important what you believe. The importance lies in why you believe it. What data are you reviewing? What experiences have you had? What is your immediate and long term motivation?
One of my favorite relationships was that of Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Antonin Scalia. While both held very opposing views of the law, they used their passion to debate and refine their ideas for truth. This in turn evolved into a wonderful friendship.
All too often in online discussions it ends up being not a debate with another poster, but a debate between yourself and some caricature you've constructed based upon what you believe the other believes.6
This discussion has been closed.
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