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Unwanted advice at gym
Replies
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magnusthenerd wrote: »
Well if you believed that, and particularly for any men making that argument, what follows is that there should be mass castrations.
That said, testosterone absolutely does not work that way. The behaviors testosterone elicits are entirely dependent on both immediate context and cultural context. Give a bunch of Buddhist monks exogenous testosterone, and what you'll see is them trying to outdo each other in acts of generosity, not hitting on women at the mall.
Heck, the fact that gay men exist, have testosterone, and little interest in going up to women in that way should be a pretty quick example to make you question this belief.
I disagree a bit here. Gay guys can be just as aggressive with their preferred sex as anyone. Oh, have you ever dealt with a woman on high amounts of testosterone? I have, they can be very aggressive in that nature.4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
I don't see it as victim blaming but as risk mitigation.
Cars were broken into at a dog park I used to attend and staff put up signs saying to make sure cars were locked and valuables not in sight. This is not victim blaming - it's tips for reducing the risk of an unpleasant event.
Should thieves break into cars? No.
Should car owners make it less attractive for thieves? Yes.
I don't disagree with you, but the difference is that it's pretty universally socially acceptable that stealing is bad; where as you get more of a mixed bag (as this thread represents) regarding boorish behavior by men seeking attention from women through unwanted advances with varying levels of appropriateness regarding content and venue.12 -
I've mentioned about form a few times with fellow runners AFTER we had already discussed other running aspects and there was a request to talk about overall form.
at the studio, i would mention form is if what the other person is dangerous. in the aerial arts, bad practice can lead to death, or paralysis
sometimes i wore make up to the gym or studio. i would come from work or a social event. i almost always have eyeliner on.
but come on. we are in the 21st century. it doesn't matter what we wear.
if i drive a little corolla or i drive a rolls royce, both cars have equal rights not to be broken into. same with if i am wearing running shorts and a bra or boys basketball shorts and a big baggy shirt. i have equal rights to personal space5 -
I have a unique perspective on this: I trained in commercial style gyms for a long time and I would occasionally say something to someone if I thought they were going to hurt themselves.
I fairly recently switched to a warehouse style strongman gym. I'm still getting used to the equipment (logs, stones etc)...now I'm on the flip side of it, plenty of people have offered me advice, and I never once took offense to it. They know more than me.
When I changed gyms, I welcomed the ego check.6 -
This conversation has gone wildly off course. First OP, do not be intimidated by the weight room. Its just metal and rubber. Second, how do I deal with people giving unwanted advice? I give them one chance to leave me alone. If that does not work, then I bare my teeth. Peace can be good, but sometimes naked aggression gets S#IT done!7
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psychod787 wrote: »This conversation has gone wildly off course. First OP, do not be intimidated by the weight room. Its just metal and rubber. Second, how do I deal with people giving unwanted advice? I give them one chance to leave me alone. If that does not work, then I bare my teeth. Peace can be good, but sometimes naked aggression gets S#IT done!
but don't you find you attract unwanted attention being naked? #sarcasm11 -
well, sometimes when I yell, yes! LOL0
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psychod787 wrote: »
Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.
Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.
Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.
Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".20 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
I don't see it as victim blaming but as risk mitigation.
Cars were broken into at a dog park I used to attend and staff put up signs saying to make sure cars were locked and valuables not in sight. This is not victim blaming - it's tips for reducing the risk of an unpleasant event.
Should thieves break into cars? No.
Should car owners make it less attractive for thieves? Yes.
So then who is the arbiter of whether or not a woman has made her sufficiently unattractive to potential harassers? Is a woman in a tank top asking for it, or does it have to be form fitting? What about my permanent eyeliner? Is that an invitation? Are wired earbuds sufficiently ugly or does it have to be the puffy over-the-ear style?
Just want to make sure I’m not teasing any men to the point of stalking....because clearly expecting a modicum of socially acceptable behavior is too much to expect.31 -
Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.
Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.
Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".
Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.2 -
psychod787 wrote: »
Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.
Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.
Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>24 -
Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.
Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>
ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.4 -
It's completely and utterly different than joggers and cyclists being advised to wear neon and have lights when it's dark. That's an issue of a driver being physically able to see a runner or cyclist in time to not hit them. It's about the ability to see someone and have enough time to slow down and/or move over.Cherimoose wrote: »
It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?
Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.
What you're talking about, however, is about men who want to have power over women and girls (and in many cases other men and boys). It doesn't matter what someone is wearing, That's exactly like saying, "well if you hadn't worn a short skirt that guy wouldn't have assaulted you". The behavior of another adult is not my responsibility nor is the responsibility of anyone other than that adult. If some guy (or a person of any gender) can't control their urges then he needs take responsibility his actions and figure out how to change them.
And no, men are not "always going to approach in public spaces" due to testosterone. That's not actually how that works. They might have stronger sex drives due to their testosterone levels, but again, people have the ability to control their actions. If you can't do that then you need to look at your actions and figure out how to change them before you hurt someone physically or emotionally. There are plenty of resources online to help you with that and I'm sure a number of therapists of any gender would be thrilled to help someone with that as well. The whole, preventing sexual assault, thing.
Oh the joys of sexism. And yes, I call it like it is (if this forum condoned swearing there might be some choice words from me). I suppose what is good is that you've shown all of us your true colors.27 -
psychod787 wrote: »
I disagree a bit here. Gay guys can be just as aggressive with their preferred sex as anyone. Oh, have you ever dealt with a woman on high amounts of testosterone? I have, they can be very aggressive in that nature.
Sexual assault isn't about sex, it's about power. If it were just about testosterone, every transman on testosterone would be assaulting people. Hint - that does not happen. But yes, men rape men all the time. There are also women that rape men (which is exceedingly underreported due to shame). Here's a link about that that isn't of the "male rights" variety https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/04/male-rape-in-america-a-new-study-reveals-that-men-are-sexually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html16 -
psychod787 wrote: »
ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.
So there are a lot of things going on here including the spreading of misinformation. Additionally, the people you were working with were not women, they were men (given that you said they were "going from female to male". If you want more information on the effect of testosterone on transmen here are some links:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/309992147 -
Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.
Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>
yes last thoughts on the hormone matter. Estrogen is a balance to testosterone. When men go on steroids, they will often take a estrogen blocker when they come off because their bodies are no longer producing test properly. If they don't, they are prone to man boobs and uhhhh emotional issues. When women go through the "change" of life, their bodies do not produce as much estrogen. So, many get the uhh , "granny" beards we see. Can also tell you from first hand experience working with "cute" little old ladies, they can be HIGHLY sexually aggressive. I have been "touched" and propositioned more times than I like to remember. Also, when I was large I had high test, almost 1200. Also had estrogen of 400 or so. The estrogen was blocking my test. So i had well, "male" problems at times then. No shame in admitting that now. Cleared those up. LOL1 -
So there are a lot of things going on here including the spreading of misinformation. Additionally, the people you were working with were not women, they were men (given that you said they were "going from female to male". If you want more information on the effect of testosterone on transmen here are some links:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30999214
not spreading scaring, in fact I fully support anyone being who they want to be. Male, female, straight, gay, pan. whatever, but when you have worked with people for a while and then they are given hormones that change them and now you notice tendencies to be more aggressive. How is that scare tactics? Its simply an N=1 observation. yes, one of the things I grew up with were transgender was a choice. I no longer believe that. I think that people are born a certain way. The "decision" is not a "decision". They are physically female, but in the brain. I mean the actual brain they are male. I actually had the fortitude to talk to several of the gentleman about what it was like growing up. They told me that from a young age they felt different than what they were being told. They felt ashamed they were attracted to women, wanted to wear mens cloths...ect. The area I am in is in the "bible" belt. So, when I say I got their life story I did. Because, I was curious about how things worked. One of them was nice enough to show me some research on the brains of SOME transgenders actually look more Male than female.2 -
psychod787 wrote: »
not spreading scaring, in fact I fully support anyone being who they want to be. Male, female, straight, gay, pan. whatever, but when you have worked with people for a while and then they are given hormones that change them and now you notice tendencies to be more aggressive. How is that scare tactics? Its simply an N=1 observation. yes, one of the things I grew up with were transgender was a choice. I no longer believe that. I think that people are born a certain way. The "decision" is not a "decision". They are physically female, but in the brain. I mean the actual brain they are male. I actually had the fortitude to talk to several of the gentleman about what it was like growing up. They told me that from a young age they felt different than what they were being told. They felt ashamed they were attracted to women, wanted to wear mens cloths...ect. The area I am in is in the "bible" belt. So, when I say I got their life story I did. Because, I was curious about how things worked. One of them was nice enough to show me some research on the brains of SOME transgenders actually look more Male than female.
Did I say anywhere that you were spreading scare tactics? I said you were spreading misinformation. Additionally, "transgenders" is not the word you want to use if you're trying to be supportive of trans people, "transgender people" or "trans people" is. Moreover, gender and sexuality are two different things. Someone can be trans and straight, trans and gay, trans and queer, trans and [enter sexuality here]. Here's what should be a good short trans 101 https://srlp.org/resources/trans-101/ - I say this as a trans person who worked with SRLP over 10 years ago. Here's another one from GLAAD https://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq which includes their media reference guide.
What the trans person/people told you about their childhood and lives may have been true for them, but it is not at all true for all trans people. As someone who has done a lot of work with regards to the rights of trans people, has been doing and/or following this work for more than half of my life, knows a significant number of trans people, and is trans, I'm not just speculating here.
Given that it seems that you are trying to do good with regards to respecting trans folks, I highly suggest that you read the four links that I gave you. Also as it sounds like you may have worked in some sort of health center, you should also at least skim the National Center for Transgender Equality's 2015 Transgender Survey. Skip to page 92 for the health stuff.10 -
psychod787 wrote: »
ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.
And yet . . . I know dozens of men and women - people whom I have every reason to suspect are hormonally normal - and they never assault or harass others. Most people don't. It's a question of behavior.
Those are excuses, period. Lame ones.
P.S. In the overwhelming majority of my posts here on this thread, I have not referenced the problem as "men", rather as harassers and victims. Just pointing that out.
P.P.S. I can understand that someone undergoing a hormonal transition (natural or medically induced) might experience difficulties of adjustment. It doesn't let them off the hook for behaving like a civilized, decent human.18 -
And yet . . . I know dozens of men and women - people whom I have every reason to suspect are hormonally normal - and they never assault or harass others. Most people don't. It's a question of behavior.
Those are excuses, period. Lame ones.
P.S. In the overwhelming majority of my posts here on this thread, I have not referenced the problem as "men", rather as harassers and victims. Just pointing that out.
P.P.S. I can understand that someone undergoing a hormonal transition (natural or medically induced) might experience difficulties of adjustment. It doesn't let them off the hook for behaving like a civilized, decent human.
Oh I am all about being who you are. What I am going with, is our brains are hardwired a certain way. Sometimes we dont understand why we do a thing or feel a certain way. Also that testosterone, or lack, can make people act much differently. Does not make an excuse for being an "@ss". I will read the articles. Always love to expand my knowledge base.2 -
psychod787 wrote: »
ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.
totally unrelated, but once many moons ago when I was trying oral contraceptives and none were working with me, my Dr prescribed one with a high testosterone level.
I punched my then boyfriend in the face because he was annoying me while I was trying to watch Beverly Hills 90210.
It felt good, I did not regret it.
I am not a violent person.
I stopped taking that pill pretty much straight after I clocked him in the face. *kitten* it felt good tho.
EDIT: another hormone-related anecdote from my personal experience too. Whilst taking a particular PED, towards the end of the cycle I was a walking around akin to a male with a permanent woody. I felt ready for "action" 24/7. My husband was a very happy man for a couple of weeks. Normally I am more like Elsa.8 -
Cahgetsfit wrote: »
totally unrelated, but once many moons ago when I was trying oral contraceptives and none were working with me, my Dr prescribed one with a high testosterone level.
I punched my then boyfriend in the face because he was annoying me while I was trying to watch Beverly Hills 90210.
It felt good, I did not regret it.
I am not a violent person.
I stopped taking that pill pretty much straight after I clocked him in the face. *kitten* it felt good tho.
EDIT: another hormone-related anecdote from my personal experience too. Whilst taking a particular PED, towards the end of the cycle I was a walking around akin to a male with a permanent woody. I felt ready for "action" 24/7. My husband was a very happy man for a couple of weeks. Normally I am more like Elsa.
Not cool14 -
Cahgetsfit wrote: »
totally unrelated, but once many moons ago when I was trying oral contraceptives and none were working with me, my Dr prescribed one with a high testosterone level.
I punched my then boyfriend in the face because he was annoying me while I was trying to watch Beverly Hills 90210.
It felt good, I did not regret it.
I am not a violent person.
I stopped taking that pill pretty much straight after I clocked him in the face. *kitten* it felt good tho.
EDIT: another hormone-related anecdote from my personal experience too. Whilst taking a particular PED, towards the end of the cycle I was a walking around akin to a male with a permanent woody. I felt ready for "action" 24/7. My husband was a very happy man for a couple of weeks. Normally I am more like Elsa.
The sexual arousal all. the. time. is very normal and goes away with time. Thankfully. The aggression isn't typical. Never mind a lot of what people have been talking about, with regards to cis-gender men has a lot to do with how boys are socialized.10 -
It's completely and utterly different than joggers and cyclists being advised to wear neon and have lights when it's dark. That's an issue of a driver being physically able to see a runner or cyclist in time to not hit them. It's about the ability to see someone and have enough time to slow down and/or move over.
You're taking the analogy too literally. It's simply an example where the other party can be at fault, yet you still have some control over the outcome.
Another example - people often wear headphones at the gym to deter chatterboxes (of any gender) from talking to them and slowing their workous. Yes, chatterboxes should control themselves, and yes, people shouldn't have to wear headphones to avoid them.. but griping about how things "should" be and who's to blame is not an actionable solution that will make your next workout better. Headphones are. Likewise, wearing low-key clothes is likely to reduce how many guys talk to you at your next workout compared to wearing neon pink booty shorts with "Juicy" on the back. At least from what i've seen at gyms.2 -
Cherimoose wrote: »
You're taking the analogy too literally. It's simply an example where the other party can be at fault, yet you still have some control over the outcome.
No, I'm really not taking it to seriously. What someone is wearing isn't an invitation to get hit on, harassed, or raped. It is not consent. It also doesn't prevent any of those things. Sexual harassment in all forms is about power, not about what someone is wearing. That you don't want to understand or grapple with that is a symptom of a wider societal issue.
That you think that somehow it makes sense to compare sexual harassment with someone getting accidently hit by a driver is disappointing but not shocking.25 -
MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Not to mention that doesn't actually work.13 -
Cherimoose wrote: »
It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?
Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.
Wow.
So what's your argument for women who get "approached," assaulted, even raped wearing anything low-key t-shirts and shorts to low-key baggy sweats? And over-the-ear headphones just make you more vulnerable.8 -
psychod787 wrote: »
Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.
Just a warning. If you get called in by HR, saying "it's hard-wired in our brain and she was dressed in a certain way" isn't going to cut it.14 -
rheddmobile wrote: »OP, I think you handled it beautifully. When I read the comment my advice was going to be, “Thanks, I already have a trainer and it’s not you,” and that’s pretty much what you said.
Also, for the rest of the people discussing gym attire - the OP in my opinion would be beautiful in a burlap sack wearing a facial mask. The only way for her to avoid attracting attention would be to stay home, and I sure hope none of you are suggesting that. Also, if you are a man and your man brain insists that you flirt with attractive women you don’t know at all because reasons, the least you can do is not be patronizing about it.
A large percentage of the time it is about power and control, not about whether the woman is beautiful (which if it were, by the way, would only justify forcing women to wear head-coverings in public if they didn't want to be blamed, based on your ceding of the ground on clothing by implying -- although I'm certainly more than willing to believe you didn't realize you were doing it -- that it would be different if a woman weren't so beautiful that she wouldn't shine in a burlap sack).3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
I don't see it as victim blaming but as risk mitigation.
Cars were broken into at a dog park I used to attend and staff put up signs saying to make sure cars were locked and valuables not in sight. This is not victim blaming - it's tips for reducing the risk of an unpleasant event.
Should thieves break into cars? No.
Should car owners make it less attractive for thieves? Yes.
No. Women are not cars. And there's always another excuse to be made about how a woman's dress, behavior, location, lack of a companion, etc., etc., made her a target. Down this path lies confining women to their homes.16
This discussion has been closed.
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