Coronavirus prep
Replies
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Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO. The only category I found stupid were the "essential" liquor stores. But people have pointed out to me that alcoholics can die if forced to detox rapidly. I would not know as I have about 1 drink a month. In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed. My sons company was literally cut in half - 1500 to 750 employees, and good luck getting a new job. My son has a friend who is literally phone-crying on his shoulder. She was in the process of divorcing her husband when she was laid off. She has no income, no savings, and now cannot leave her husband, and sees no end in sight and is trapped. As for compliance, the worst compliance I encountered was in the state with the most strict rules at the time, Maine. Residents were terrible. Compliance slowly improved later in the summer, but was a real joke preceding July 4th. They would blame any transmission on "out of state visitors" yet locals were not wear masks nor social distancing.
As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down.
I will say that I honestly would not want to have the responsibility of dealing with the balance between shutting down to prevent viral spread, and the economic damage and destroyed lives that a shut down causes. I get to sit here and express my opinions with no repercussions for anyone.8 -
Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO. The only category I found stupid were the "essential" liquor stores. But people have pointed out to me that alcoholics can die if forced to detox rapidly. I would not know as I have about 1 drink a month. In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed. My sons company was literally cut in half - 1500 to 750 employees, and good luck getting a new job. My son has a friend who is literally phone-crying on his shoulder. She was in the process of divorcing her husband when she was laid off. She has no income, no savings, and now cannot leave her husband, and sees no end in sight and is trapped. As for compliance, the worst compliance I encountered was in the state with the most strict rules at the time, Maine. Residents were terrible. Compliance slowly improved later in the summer, but was a real joke preceding July 4th. They would blame any transmission on "out of state visitors" yet locals were not wear masks nor social distancing.
As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down.
I will say that I honestly would not want to have the responsibility of dealing with the balance between shutting down to prevent viral spread, and the economic damage and destroyed lives that a shut down causes. I get to sit here and express my opinions with no repercussions for anyone.
Maybe it's me getting more philosophical as I age or the Psych major in me, but as a consultant for businesses (from Fortune 100s to startups) for 25 years, I've seen the most successful businesses nearly always have common themes. A top down strategy that is communicated effectively from the top down to the lowest person in the organization, conformity/consistency of messaging and honesty/ethics. No matter what company I deal with, the ones that are the most successful and have the happiest employees seem to follow this pattern.
If you apply and contrast that to how our government has operated in this pandemic, it's pretty clear they failed miserably. And no matter who wins this election, the damage is already done and we are irreparably harmed.
I mentioned around 2 months ago that I thought we'd see a very dirty form of herd immunity before we saw vaccines. Not that I wanted to see that, but you could see the writing on the wall with people fighting mask mandates and common sense. I still think that's what we'll see. And I'm not sure, at this stage, uniformity of message will help. And that's sad.
You simply have to be as vigilant as you can be, even if that means sacrificing seeing family these upcoming Holidays and stay in the 30% to 50% that will stay safe until we have some form of herd immunity, vaccines, antibodies or treatments for everyone.8 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO. The only category I found stupid were the "essential" liquor stores. But people have pointed out to me that alcoholics can die if forced to detox rapidly. I would not know as I have about 1 drink a month. In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed. My sons company was literally cut in half - 1500 to 750 employees, and good luck getting a new job. My son has a friend who is literally phone-crying on his shoulder. She was in the process of divorcing her husband when she was laid off. She has no income, no savings, and now cannot leave her husband, and sees no end in sight and is trapped. As for compliance, the worst compliance I encountered was in the state with the most strict rules at the time, Maine. Residents were terrible. Compliance slowly improved later in the summer, but was a real joke preceding July 4th. They would blame any transmission on "out of state visitors" yet locals were not wear masks nor social distancing.
As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down.
I will say that I honestly would not want to have the responsibility of dealing with the balance between shutting down to prevent viral spread, and the economic damage and destroyed lives that a shut down causes. I get to sit here and express my opinions with no repercussions for anyone.
Maybe it's me getting more philosophical as I age or the Psych major in me, but as a consultant for businesses (from Fortune 100s to startups) for 25 years, I've seen the most successful businesses nearly always have common themes. A top down strategy that is communicated effectively from the top down to the lowest person in the organization, conformity/consistency of messaging and honesty/ethics. No matter what company I deal with, the ones that are the most successful and have the happiest employees seem to follow this pattern.
If you apply and contrast that to how our government has operated in this pandemic, it's pretty clear they failed miserably. And no matter who wins this election, the damage is already done and we are irreparably harmed.
I mentioned around 2 months ago that I thought we'd see a very dirty form of herd immunity before we saw vaccines. Not that I wanted to see that, but you could see the writing on the wall with people fighting mask mandates and common sense. I still think that's what we'll see. And I'm not sure, at this stage, uniformity of message will help. And that's sad.
You simply have to be as vigilant as you can be, even if that means sacrificing seeing family these upcoming Holidays and stay in the 30% to 50% that will stay safe until we have some form of herd immunity, vaccines, antibodies or treatments for everyone.
I think your business analogy is spot on, and that does not exist, pre or post pandemic.3 -
Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO.
Probably similar to most states. Here we had groceries, liquor stores (although here one can buy booze in grocery stories), and Home Depot like stores open, and some pure gardening stores, although most went to delivery anyway.
"In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed."
Restaurants closed here, plus one book store I liked, I am sad. Would they have closed without the stay at home? Likely, as people's actions have changed independent of the state requirements. Do you have reason to think otherwise? Also, re people claiming the issue is states not opening up, what's not open?
"As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major [mayor?] makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down."
Here is a specific quote I was referring to:
"Most troubling of all, perhaps, was a sentiment the expert said a member of Kushner's team expressed: that because the virus had hit blue states hardest, a national plan was unnecessary and would not make sense politically. "The political folks believed that because it was going to be relegated to Democratic states, that they could blame those governors, and that would be an effective political strategy," said the expert."
That might be cool with you (it wouldn't affect FL), but I think it's relevant to what happened in the NE early on and what is happening generally in IL now, as well as early on.
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Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO.
Probably similar to most states. Here we had groceries, liquor stores (although here one can buy booze in grocery stories), and Home Depot like stores open, and some pure gardening stores, although most went to delivery anyway.
"In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed."
Restaurants closed here, plus one book store I liked, I am sad. Would they have closed without the stay at home? Likely, as people's actions have changed independent of the state requirements. Do you have reason to think otherwise? Also, re people claiming the issue is states not opening up, what's not open?
"As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major [mayor?] makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down."
Here is a specific quote I was referring to:
"Most troubling of all, perhaps, was a sentiment the expert said a member of Kushner's team expressed: that because the virus had hit blue states hardest, a national plan was unnecessary and would not make sense politically. "The political folks believed that because it was going to be relegated to Democratic states, that they could blame those governors, and that would be an effective political strategy," said the expert."
That might be cool with you (it wouldn't affect FL), but I think it's relevant to what happened in the NE early on and what is happening generally in IL now, as well as early on.
Wow! @lemurcat2 all I can say is that I truly hope that the team "member" was a disgruntled individual looking to stir the pot and that somehow that is false. But assuming it is an accurate statement, that is very disturbing and something I would not condone. Thank you for sharing.3 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO. The only category I found stupid were the "essential" liquor stores. But people have pointed out to me that alcoholics can die if forced to detox rapidly. I would not know as I have about 1 drink a month. In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed. My sons company was literally cut in half - 1500 to 750 employees, and good luck getting a new job. My son has a friend who is literally phone-crying on his shoulder. She was in the process of divorcing her husband when she was laid off. She has no income, no savings, and now cannot leave her husband, and sees no end in sight and is trapped. As for compliance, the worst compliance I encountered was in the state with the most strict rules at the time, Maine. Residents were terrible. Compliance slowly improved later in the summer, but was a real joke preceding July 4th. They would blame any transmission on "out of state visitors" yet locals were not wear masks nor social distancing.
As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down.
I will say that I honestly would not want to have the responsibility of dealing with the balance between shutting down to prevent viral spread, and the economic damage and destroyed lives that a shut down causes. I get to sit here and express my opinions with no repercussions for anyone.
Maybe it's me getting more philosophical as I age or the Psych major in me, but as a consultant for businesses (from Fortune 100s to startups) for 25 years, I've seen the most successful businesses nearly always have common themes. A top down strategy that is communicated effectively from the top down to the lowest person in the organization, conformity/consistency of messaging and honesty/ethics. No matter what company I deal with, the ones that are the most successful and have the happiest employees seem to follow this pattern.
If you apply and contrast that to how our government has operated in this pandemic, it's pretty clear they failed miserably. And no matter who wins this election, the damage is already done and we are irreparably harmed.
I mentioned around 2 months ago that I thought we'd see a very dirty form of herd immunity before we saw vaccines. Not that I wanted to see that, but you could see the writing on the wall with people fighting mask mandates and common sense. I still think that's what we'll see. And I'm not sure, at this stage, uniformity of message will help. And that's sad.
You simply have to be as vigilant as you can be, even if that means sacrificing seeing family these upcoming Holidays and stay in the 30% to 50% that will stay safe until we have some form of herd immunity, vaccines, antibodies or treatments for everyone.
I disagree and don't expect that we will ever have herd immunity. It seems like the antibodies are lasting for only a few months and there have been a few cases of the same person getting infected twice. This also makes me wonder about the efficacy of a vaccine once it comes out. Assume everyone gets it (they won't) around the same time... you have a 3 month window where everyone has antibodies and nobody can spread it around. Theoretically, the virus could die out within that 3 month window. But that assumption is not realistic, so I'm not sure how that is supposed to work out.5 -
@T1DCarnivoreRunner
Natural herd immunity (direct infection by the virus) is dangerous and not as effective as herd immunity via vaccination.
Natural herd immunity may only provide neutralizing antibodies for a short period of time, and there are studies that determined that the number of neutralizing antibodies are in proportion to the original viral load.
Somebody that was infected by the virus and was mostly asymptomatic or with very mild side effects, may not have generated a large number of antibodies and their T-cells may have “limited memory.” And probably their antibodies were not considered “neutralizing abs.”
On the other hand, people that were very sick with the infection (due to a high viral load in their system), may have longer lasting antibodies and their T cells may also have a lasting memory. However, the risk of having autoimmune antibodies (antibodies attacking the body not the virus) may be present and that is dangerous.
A vaccine will always deliver a steady and even dose of antigen, and many vaccines were formulated to get a booster shot few months after the first inoculation. Finding a robust neutralizing response and preferable a long lasting response is the goal of vaccination. That is why we have clinical trials. Trust science!
https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/world/2020-08-21-herd-immunity-through-infection-vs-vaccination/
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Yesterday's update...
4,462 new positive cases
45 new deaths
We only have 28.5% available ICU beds in the state. Luckily vents are a lot better at 77.1% available.
Glad I started stocking up a couple months ago. I could easily go without a grocery trip for awhile if I had to. It would mean a lot of meat, pasta, rice, and canned veggies but I could do it. Going to grab a few more things this weekend as well. Also stocked up on most of my meds. Need allergy pills, but otherwise have a couple months of everything else. TP is good. Next check I will do an Amazon order for kitty litter and a couple other things I get from them I need.
Even if the state doesn't do a shut down, I am going back to being more restricted myself. I admit, I started to slack. Ate out a few times (restaurant was mostly empty and they kept parties very separated), did some non necessary shopping, that sort of thing. I am gonna have to cut that out again. Only go out if I HAVE to like for groceries. Heck, I am even thinking of doing grocery delivery though I still am nervous about it due to my allergy issues. Going to look into it more just in case.5 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO. The only category I found stupid were the "essential" liquor stores. But people have pointed out to me that alcoholics can die if forced to detox rapidly. I would not know as I have about 1 drink a month. In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed. My sons company was literally cut in half - 1500 to 750 employees, and good luck getting a new job. My son has a friend who is literally phone-crying on his shoulder. She was in the process of divorcing her husband when she was laid off. She has no income, no savings, and now cannot leave her husband, and sees no end in sight and is trapped. As for compliance, the worst compliance I encountered was in the state with the most strict rules at the time, Maine. Residents were terrible. Compliance slowly improved later in the summer, but was a real joke preceding July 4th. They would blame any transmission on "out of state visitors" yet locals were not wear masks nor social distancing.
As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down.
I will say that I honestly would not want to have the responsibility of dealing with the balance between shutting down to prevent viral spread, and the economic damage and destroyed lives that a shut down causes. I get to sit here and express my opinions with no repercussions for anyone.
Maybe it's me getting more philosophical as I age or the Psych major in me, but as a consultant for businesses (from Fortune 100s to startups) for 25 years, I've seen the most successful businesses nearly always have common themes. A top down strategy that is communicated effectively from the top down to the lowest person in the organization, conformity/consistency of messaging and honesty/ethics. No matter what company I deal with, the ones that are the most successful and have the happiest employees seem to follow this pattern.
If you apply and contrast that to how our government has operated in this pandemic, it's pretty clear they failed miserably. And no matter who wins this election, the damage is already done and we are irreparably harmed.
I mentioned around 2 months ago that I thought we'd see a very dirty form of herd immunity before we saw vaccines. Not that I wanted to see that, but you could see the writing on the wall with people fighting mask mandates and common sense. I still think that's what we'll see. And I'm not sure, at this stage, uniformity of message will help. And that's sad.
You simply have to be as vigilant as you can be, even if that means sacrificing seeing family these upcoming Holidays and stay in the 30% to 50% that will stay safe until we have some form of herd immunity, vaccines, antibodies or treatments for everyone.
I disagree and don't expect that we will ever have herd immunity. It seems like the antibodies are lasting for only a few months and there have been a few cases of the same person getting infected twice. This also makes me wonder about the efficacy of a vaccine once it comes out. Assume everyone gets it (they won't) around the same time... you have a 3 month window where everyone has antibodies and nobody can spread it around. Theoretically, the virus could die out within that 3 month window. But that assumption is not realistic, so I'm not sure how that is supposed to work out.
But understand, what you're saying is that we'll all of a sudden all listen to reason, wear masks, comply with getting a universal vaccine and that the vaccine will work. Or perhaps you aren't. Either way, it's going to get really, really ugly before it's all said and done. And the election is done and it hasn't magically disappeared. I forget who said that
Some dirty form of Herd Immunity, at this stage, is the optimistic view. The pessimists view is this thing is seasonal, like the flu or the common cold, mutates to be more contagious, and is the most efficient killer of people with compromised immune systems we've ever seen.
I prefer the first scenario. Where people with sense protect themselves as well as possible and those that don't (along with, unfortunately, many who do), get it and then finally understand how dangerous this is. Refrigerated trucks as back up morgues are very compelling to change minds. It is coming to that very quickly right now. I don't mean to sound bleak, but we are going to see that very soon all over the states that don't believe in masks.5 -
Quote from a friend at a hospital: We're getting the first recovered nurses back from our big outbreak. They're worthless. 2 weeks out most of them aren't functional enough to work as a nurse. For example one today couldn't remember how to set up telemetry or keep train of thought long enough to accomplish a task. She couldn't even follow a TV show from scene to scene.21
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Quote from a friend at a hospital: We're getting the first recovered nurses back from our big outbreak. They're worthless. 2 weeks out most of them aren't functional enough to work as a nurse. For example one today couldn't remember how to set up telemetry or keep train of thought long enough to accomplish a task. She couldn't even follow a TV show from scene to scene.
This wouldn't be surprising in how it impacts the brain as well, but they will or should recover. It might take some time. I'm less worried about people's brains than their lungs and heart. The brain has so much unused that most will recover. The heart, not so much. Every part of the heart is used. Same with the lungs. Those with decent immune systems should recover eventually. Those that have compromised ones will require long term care or have long term health issues.
@Gisel2015 - I do trust science will solve this eventually, but we're out time for this Fall and Winter. Even if they do have vaccines, only the first responders and most at risk should be able to get them now.2 -
Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO. The only category I found stupid were the "essential" liquor stores. But people have pointed out to me that alcoholics can die if forced to detox rapidly. I would not know as I have about 1 drink a month. In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed. My sons company was literally cut in half - 1500 to 750 employees, and good luck getting a new job. My son has a friend who is literally phone-crying on his shoulder. She was in the process of divorcing her husband when she was laid off. She has no income, no savings, and now cannot leave her husband, and sees no end in sight and is trapped. As for compliance, the worst compliance I encountered was in the state with the most strict rules at the time, Maine. Residents were terrible. Compliance slowly improved later in the summer, but was a real joke preceding July 4th. They would blame any transmission on "out of state visitors" yet locals were not wear masks nor social distancing.
As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down.
I will say that I honestly would not want to have the responsibility of dealing with the balance between shutting down to prevent viral spread, and the economic damage and destroyed lives that a shut down causes. I get to sit here and express my opinions with no repercussions for anyone.
None of the new restrictions in MA affect me, as I'm in for the night well before 10 PM, and have been acting as if the only business open were still supermarkets, Home Depot, and garden centers.
I wish the gathering restrictions had been in place this summer when four houses one street over were having very loud outdoor parties Every Freaking Weekend.
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/524760-new-coronavirus-restrictions-take-effect-in-massachusetts3 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO. The only category I found stupid were the "essential" liquor stores. But people have pointed out to me that alcoholics can die if forced to detox rapidly. I would not know as I have about 1 drink a month. In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed. My sons company was literally cut in half - 1500 to 750 employees, and good luck getting a new job. My son has a friend who is literally phone-crying on his shoulder. She was in the process of divorcing her husband when she was laid off. She has no income, no savings, and now cannot leave her husband, and sees no end in sight and is trapped. As for compliance, the worst compliance I encountered was in the state with the most strict rules at the time, Maine. Residents were terrible. Compliance slowly improved later in the summer, but was a real joke preceding July 4th. They would blame any transmission on "out of state visitors" yet locals were not wear masks nor social distancing.
As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down.
I will say that I honestly would not want to have the responsibility of dealing with the balance between shutting down to prevent viral spread, and the economic damage and destroyed lives that a shut down causes. I get to sit here and express my opinions with no repercussions for anyone.
Maybe it's me getting more philosophical as I age or the Psych major in me, but as a consultant for businesses (from Fortune 100s to startups) for 25 years, I've seen the most successful businesses nearly always have common themes. A top down strategy that is communicated effectively from the top down to the lowest person in the organization, conformity/consistency of messaging and honesty/ethics. No matter what company I deal with, the ones that are the most successful and have the happiest employees seem to follow this pattern.
If you apply and contrast that to how our government has operated in this pandemic, it's pretty clear they failed miserably. And no matter who wins this election, the damage is already done and we are irreparably harmed.
I mentioned around 2 months ago that I thought we'd see a very dirty form of herd immunity before we saw vaccines. Not that I wanted to see that, but you could see the writing on the wall with people fighting mask mandates and common sense. I still think that's what we'll see. And I'm not sure, at this stage, uniformity of message will help. And that's sad.
You simply have to be as vigilant as you can be, even if that means sacrificing seeing family these upcoming Holidays and stay in the 30% to 50% that will stay safe until we have some form of herd immunity, vaccines, antibodies or treatments for everyone.
I disagree and don't expect that we will ever have herd immunity. It seems like the antibodies are lasting for only a few months and there have been a few cases of the same person getting infected twice. This also makes me wonder about the efficacy of a vaccine once it comes out. Assume everyone gets it (they won't) around the same time... you have a 3 month window where everyone has antibodies and nobody can spread it around. Theoretically, the virus could die out within that 3 month window. But that assumption is not realistic, so I'm not sure how that is supposed to work out.
But understand, what you're saying is that we'll all of a sudden all listen to reason, wear masks, comply with getting a universal vaccine and that the vaccine will work. Or perhaps you aren't. Either way, it's going to get really, really ugly before it's all said and done. And the election is done and it hasn't magically disappeared. I forget who said that
Some dirty form of Herd Immunity, at this stage, is the optimistic view. The pessimists view is this thing is seasonal, like the flu or the common cold, mutates to be more contagious, and is the most efficient killer of people with compromised immune systems we've ever seen.
I prefer the first scenario. Where people with sense protect themselves as well as possible and those that don't (along with, unfortunately, many who do), get it and then finally understand how dangerous this is. Refrigerated trucks as back up morgues are very compelling to change minds. It is coming to that very quickly right now. I don't mean to sound bleak, but we are going to see that very soon all over the states that don't believe in masks.
We had refrigerated trucks as backup morgues staged here in TN back in April. Too many people don't care. We need a better plan, which needs to include forcing people to take proper actions like wearing masks.8 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO. The only category I found stupid were the "essential" liquor stores. But people have pointed out to me that alcoholics can die if forced to detox rapidly. I would not know as I have about 1 drink a month. In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed. My sons company was literally cut in half - 1500 to 750 employees, and good luck getting a new job. My son has a friend who is literally phone-crying on his shoulder. She was in the process of divorcing her husband when she was laid off. She has no income, no savings, and now cannot leave her husband, and sees no end in sight and is trapped. As for compliance, the worst compliance I encountered was in the state with the most strict rules at the time, Maine. Residents were terrible. Compliance slowly improved later in the summer, but was a real joke preceding July 4th. They would blame any transmission on "out of state visitors" yet locals were not wear masks nor social distancing.
As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down.
I will say that I honestly would not want to have the responsibility of dealing with the balance between shutting down to prevent viral spread, and the economic damage and destroyed lives that a shut down causes. I get to sit here and express my opinions with no repercussions for anyone.
Maybe it's me getting more philosophical as I age or the Psych major in me, but as a consultant for businesses (from Fortune 100s to startups) for 25 years, I've seen the most successful businesses nearly always have common themes. A top down strategy that is communicated effectively from the top down to the lowest person in the organization, conformity/consistency of messaging and honesty/ethics. No matter what company I deal with, the ones that are the most successful and have the happiest employees seem to follow this pattern.
If you apply and contrast that to how our government has operated in this pandemic, it's pretty clear they failed miserably. And no matter who wins this election, the damage is already done and we are irreparably harmed.
I mentioned around 2 months ago that I thought we'd see a very dirty form of herd immunity before we saw vaccines. Not that I wanted to see that, but you could see the writing on the wall with people fighting mask mandates and common sense. I still think that's what we'll see. And I'm not sure, at this stage, uniformity of message will help. And that's sad.
You simply have to be as vigilant as you can be, even if that means sacrificing seeing family these upcoming Holidays and stay in the 30% to 50% that will stay safe until we have some form of herd immunity, vaccines, antibodies or treatments for everyone.
I disagree and don't expect that we will ever have herd immunity. It seems like the antibodies are lasting for only a few months and there have been a few cases of the same person getting infected twice. This also makes me wonder about the efficacy of a vaccine once it comes out. Assume everyone gets it (they won't) around the same time... you have a 3 month window where everyone has antibodies and nobody can spread it around. Theoretically, the virus could die out within that 3 month window. But that assumption is not realistic, so I'm not sure how that is supposed to work out.
But understand, what you're saying is that we'll all of a sudden all listen to reason, wear masks, comply with getting a universal vaccine and that the vaccine will work. Or perhaps you aren't. Either way, it's going to get really, really ugly before it's all said and done. And the election is done and it hasn't magically disappeared. I forget who said that
Some dirty form of Herd Immunity, at this stage, is the optimistic view. The pessimists view is this thing is seasonal, like the flu or the common cold, mutates to be more contagious, and is the most efficient killer of people with compromised immune systems we've ever seen.
I prefer the first scenario. Where people with sense protect themselves as well as possible and those that don't (along with, unfortunately, many who do), get it and then finally understand how dangerous this is. Refrigerated trucks as back up morgues are very compelling to change minds. It is coming to that very quickly right now. I don't mean to sound bleak, but we are going to see that very soon all over the states that don't believe in masks.
We had refrigerated trucks as backup morgues staged here in TN back in April. Too many people don't care. We need a better plan, which needs to include forcing people to take proper actions like wearing masks.
There are always going to be people that refuse to wear them and local politicians that refuse to enforce mandates. I wish we could have started with that and not made mask wearing political, things would be much, much different. That ship sailed long ago.13 -
And given that so many people wear their masks under their nose, having a mask mandate probably won't help. Even at restaurants, I see a lot of the waiters and waitresses with the mask down low so it is utterly useless. The grocery people seem to have gotten better about that, but in the early months half the checkout clerks wore their masks wrong, if they wore them at all.
6 -
May be any mandate could not only demand mask wearing but specify the way in which they are worn with fines for those not complying. With information to emphasise the way the virus moves atmospherically and remains on hard surfaces, staying active there for how ever many hours the scientists have worked out now, best scientific understanding. Information/ expectation.
My local authority UK had appointed marshals to work along side the police and other officials. My hope is they will not be over worked in this second lockdown.
Wishing everyone all the very best and willing everyone to keep safe.4 -
Actually, face coverings do work to help stop the spread of this virus. The hospitals are very close to capacity treating this virus in the US. Many do survive, but long term health issues may occur for some survivors.
It’s pretty callous to infer that low mortality rates, is an adequate reason for not wearing a face covering out of respect and concern for others.
[edited by MFP Mods to remove quoted post]
12 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Chiming in and some of my experiences are different from those mentioned above. Since March, I have lived in 3 states; began the shutdown in florida, and then spent from May - Oct in Mass and Maine. As for not enough essential businesses being shut down, in Florida and Mass, things were shut down tight IMO. The only category I found stupid were the "essential" liquor stores. But people have pointed out to me that alcoholics can die if forced to detox rapidly. I would not know as I have about 1 drink a month. In both Florida and Mass, there are businesses closed forever because they were not considered "essential". All those people are now unemployed. My sons company was literally cut in half - 1500 to 750 employees, and good luck getting a new job. My son has a friend who is literally phone-crying on his shoulder. She was in the process of divorcing her husband when she was laid off. She has no income, no savings, and now cannot leave her husband, and sees no end in sight and is trapped. As for compliance, the worst compliance I encountered was in the state with the most strict rules at the time, Maine. Residents were terrible. Compliance slowly improved later in the summer, but was a real joke preceding July 4th. They would blame any transmission on "out of state visitors" yet locals were not wear masks nor social distancing.
As for our president ignoring cities, the Boston Major makes all kinds of rules and mandates and if he does not, our governor steps in. We just got new rules going into effect tomorrow night. It is all a tricky balance. There is finger pointing everywhere - lower government levels pointing up, and federal level pointing down.
I will say that I honestly would not want to have the responsibility of dealing with the balance between shutting down to prevent viral spread, and the economic damage and destroyed lives that a shut down causes. I get to sit here and express my opinions with no repercussions for anyone.
Maybe it's me getting more philosophical as I age or the Psych major in me, but as a consultant for businesses (from Fortune 100s to startups) for 25 years, I've seen the most successful businesses nearly always have common themes. A top down strategy that is communicated effectively from the top down to the lowest person in the organization, conformity/consistency of messaging and honesty/ethics. No matter what company I deal with, the ones that are the most successful and have the happiest employees seem to follow this pattern.
If you apply and contrast that to how our government has operated in this pandemic, it's pretty clear they failed miserably. And no matter who wins this election, the damage is already done and we are irreparably harmed.
I mentioned around 2 months ago that I thought we'd see a very dirty form of herd immunity before we saw vaccines. Not that I wanted to see that, but you could see the writing on the wall with people fighting mask mandates and common sense. I still think that's what we'll see. And I'm not sure, at this stage, uniformity of message will help. And that's sad.
You simply have to be as vigilant as you can be, even if that means sacrificing seeing family these upcoming Holidays and stay in the 30% to 50% that will stay safe until we have some form of herd immunity, vaccines, antibodies or treatments for everyone.
I disagree and don't expect that we will ever have herd immunity. It seems like the antibodies are lasting for only a few months and there have been a few cases of the same person getting infected twice. This also makes me wonder about the efficacy of a vaccine once it comes out. Assume everyone gets it (they won't) around the same time... you have a 3 month window where everyone has antibodies and nobody can spread it around. Theoretically, the virus could die out within that 3 month window. But that assumption is not realistic, so I'm not sure how that is supposed to work out.
But understand, what you're saying is that we'll all of a sudden all listen to reason, wear masks, comply with getting a universal vaccine and that the vaccine will work. Or perhaps you aren't. Either way, it's going to get really, really ugly before it's all said and done. And the election is done and it hasn't magically disappeared. I forget who said that
Some dirty form of Herd Immunity, at this stage, is the optimistic view. The pessimists view is this thing is seasonal, like the flu or the common cold, mutates to be more contagious, and is the most efficient killer of people with compromised immune systems we've ever seen.
I prefer the first scenario. Where people with sense protect themselves as well as possible and those that don't (along with, unfortunately, many who do), get it and then finally understand how dangerous this is. Refrigerated trucks as back up morgues are very compelling to change minds. It is coming to that very quickly right now. I don't mean to sound bleak, but we are going to see that very soon all over the states that don't believe in masks.
We had refrigerated trucks as backup morgues staged here in TN back in April. Too many people don't care. We need a better plan, which needs to include forcing people to take proper actions like wearing masks.
Also, too many people never think it'll happen to them. It's bad enough to think it'll never happen to them but don't they think it just might happen to friends/family? Eventually, I believe it's going to touch every single one of us, in reality. Whether it's an uncle who lives next state over, our child in college, our parent in a nursing home, our best friend who's right down the street. We will all be touched.
And for that, people still refuse to take heed and practice recommended precautions?
SMH7 -
Also in KY, our hospitalization and ICU usage is going up at a pretty steady clip. Over 1000 hospitalized now.
I lost a great uncle on Monday, not to COVID but to cancer. I don't know what impact if any the pandemic had on his level of care, but I know he was stressed about all the everything that's going on. And that couldn't have been good. A few weeks prior I lost a friend who as only a few years older than me, also to cancer. Geez, what a downer these days are.
So sorry for your losses.
2 -
missysippy930 wrote: »
Actually, face coverings do work to help stop the spread of this virus. The hospitals are very close to capacity treating this virus in the US. Many do survive, but long term health issues may occur for some survivors.
It’s pretty callous to infer that low mortality rates, is an adequate reason for not wearing a face covering out of respect and concern for others.
[edited by MFP Mods to remove quoted post]
Right. Mortality rate has decreased b/c we've finally learned enough to get better at treating the disease. However, those who tout this faulty line of thinking skim over other important concerns like hospital capacity and those who don't have COVID who won't get proper treatment either as a result, long term illnesses, long term damage to organs, the brain, and blood vessels, the emotional, psychological, and financial burden on them or their loved ones, the drag on Medicare and Medicaid, possible long term or permanent loss of quality of life. And adding all this to the drag on the economy it creates. Like I said upthread, we can't get ANYTHING accomplished in any meaningful way toward recovering our country until the virus is under control. Add all these up and the overall toll of this virus is HUGE.
7
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