Coronavirus prep
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In Australia, where flu season is over now - yes it made a huge difference
Influenza numbers were way down compared to usual.9 -
Vaccinations will soon be an option for local hospital staff per rumors. There are no fully approved FDA vaccines yet but beta testers are needed. Sounds like Canada has come out with compensation plan if any beta tester is harmed. Hard times for hard decisions.
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paperpudding wrote: »is Pfizer the same vaccine as was approved and already running in UK?
Yes, and also received approval in Canada last week although shipment and vaccination have not started yet.3 -
So I had to go to a bigger grocery store today (Meijer) because I needed some stuff that my normal weekly stores do not carry (Aldi and Fresh Thyme). It was horrible. SO many employees and vendors not wearing masks, not wearing them correctly, or not social distancing... or a mix. I have already sent an email to corporate, but knowing that they just don't seem to care means I won't be going back. And I will be telling as many people as possible.15
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MikePfirrman wrote: »I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
That was the attitude of one of the politicians in the second worst hit state in the US (actually, both S Dakota and N Dakota) -- people will do what they should do on their own. N Dakota now has started a mandatory mask mandate, but S Dakota still refuses. Didn't work out so well for either of them and people don't do what they should without being forced or coerced.
I wonder a bit whether political leadership's flag-wave-y refusal to implement mandates/recommendations earlier has increased incidence or duration of non-compliance in those places, even after the late-breaking mandates.
I live in a state that had relatively early mask mandates (Michigan), and strong pro-precautions rhetoric from the governor (the legislature is another story . . . .). This is 100% subjective, but I feel like compliance here has gradually improved over the months, including among some people I know who feel very oppositional to the governor, and who've spread absurd conspiracy stuff about the pandemic (and still seem to think it's a myth). It feels like the weight of public announcements, and many regular people's amplification of those announcements, has created a pressure toward the social norm that people wear masks in public.
If the opposite message is reinforced at first, top down, and also amplified, does that reduce compliance probability later, if officials reluctantly eventually implement mandates? Has the norm of opposing masks become more entrenched? (I'm not asking people here to answer these questions. I think they're unanswerable. But I think humans are very influenced by what they see as behavioral social norms.)11 -
"But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing."
Rennie, what? They are NOT doing what they should be doing. Everyone there is wearing masks, not going to parties and weddings etc... ? Sorry but that is not correct. If they were it wouldn't be spreading like it is. One of my USA friends told me this week a guy he works with is going to a wedding with around a hundred people there. That is crazy. The couple hosting it for one could have put it off till the vaccine is out and just had a very tiny wedding with maybe just their parents for now if they are in a rush. Apparently many don't care if half their guests end up in hospital or dead as long as they have a party. Selfish? Yes. I have no idea why it's allowed. It wouldn't be here if we had high numbers of people dying.11 -
"But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing."
Rennie, what? They are NOT doing what they should be doing. Everyone there is wearing masks, not going to parties and weddings etc... ? Sorry but that is not correct. If they were it wouldn't be spreading like it is. One of my USA friends told me this week a guy he works with is going to a wedding with around a hundred people there. That is crazy. The couple hosting it for one could have put it off till the vaccine is out and just had a very tiny wedding with maybe just their parents for now if they are in a rush. Apparently many don't care if half their guests end up in hospital or dead as long as they have a party. Selfish? Yes. I have no idea why it's allowed. It wouldn't be here if we had high numbers of people dying.
You could be right, I could be wrong, but that's not how I interpreted Reenie's question, in context, when she wrote:I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I read that (paraphrasing) as "Wouldn't the masks, social distancing and staying home reduce flu spread this year? But if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing, why is Covid so bad?"
IOW, I took that part you quoted out of context as a counterfactual, implying "but I guess people must not be doing enough of the right things, or Covid wouldn't be so bad".
Like I said, maybe I'm interpreting wrong.
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"But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing."
Rennie, what? They are NOT doing what they should be doing. Everyone there is wearing masks, not going to parties and weddings etc... ? Sorry but that is not correct. If they were it wouldn't be spreading like it is. One of my USA friends told me this week a guy he works with is going to a wedding with around a hundred people there. That is crazy. The couple hosting it for one could have put it off till the vaccine is out and just had a very tiny wedding with maybe just their parents for now if they are in a rush. Apparently many don't care if half their guests end up in hospital or dead as long as they have a party. Selfish? Yes. I have no idea why it's allowed. It wouldn't be here if we had high numbers of people dying.
You could be right, I could be wrong, but that's not how I interpreted Reenie's question, in context, when she wrote:I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I read that (paraphrasing) as "Wouldn't the masks, social distancing and staying home reduce flu spread this year? But if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing, why is Covid so bad?"
IOW, I took that part you quoted out of context as a counterfactual, implying "but I guess people must not be doing enough of the right things, or Covid wouldn't be so bad".
Like I said, maybe I'm interpreting wrong.
No worries. I sometimes interpret things wrong so might be me. It's just how it read to me. Writing stuff doesn't always come across how we mean I know.5 -
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In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
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spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.4 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.
Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.)
Also, I think you should keep in mind that even though it seems like a long time that Europe has had more open borders between countries, there was a long preceding history of closed borders with somewhat limited access points.
The US has never had closed borders between states (that I'm aware of - other than during the civil war - in any systematic way). It would simply be completely unenforceable to tell people the state was closed. (Some states are requiring something like quarantines of those changing states, but that's not particularly enforceable, either.)
In the more populous states - and I don't just mean East and West coast ones - there are hundreds of roads that cross state lines. In my part of the country (Michigan, Great Lakes area) it's quite common for there to be roads on 1 mile grid lines nearly everywhere, even in the rural areas, and frequently there are roads within those grids, too. Near borders, people routinely work in one state, work or shop in another - in some cases, the nearest urban area in the "home" state is much further away than one in a neighboring state. Major metropolitan areas sprawl uninterrupted across multiple states, the city streets completely interconnected at pretty much every block as if one city (yes, the cities are usually governmentally separate, but completely contiguous). Commonly, we don't even think of states as having borders: We call them "state lines", similar to "county lines" or "city limits".
There is no practical way to limit movement between states, except by requesting it of the populace. Even if someone had the power, it would be absurdly unenforceable, and in many cases have very major negative economic consequences in itself. (Even the border closure with Canada has exceptions for essential workers, and that's been a pain point in some areas, but at least there are generally limited/defined crossing points as an enforcement mechanism.)
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spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.
Internal travel is huge and to shut it down 911 style long enough to slow the virus spread would leave grocery stores without food. Some do not have 60 day supply of food and TP at home.
Governors are not about to force their states to actually shut down due to their dependency tax generation and prevent civil unrest. There's no one in the USA that can order anyone to take any Covid-19 vaccines since none have full FDA approval because all are still in early mass testing phase. Bill Gates just stated we are stuck in this Pandemic until summer 2022. Mental health can't survive 18 months of more lockdown.4 -
There won't be enough vaccine for everyone for a long time. So, you don't want to take it? Good...7
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spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.
I live in Europe and find that it's hard for people to understand the United States and how it works. There are no borders or control points between States, but they have State governments that control certain aspects and are very different from one State to another. The Federal government controls other aspects overall. For instance, there are Federal highways and then there are State highways---as they say, it's complicated. COVID has shown the weaknesses in different systems. Those won't change. Things are too far gone. The best we can hope for is a future plan for an event of this magnitude. As I said in the beginning--we were caught with our pants down. Let's not let it happen again.11 -
Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.5 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.
Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.)
Also, I think you should keep in mind that even though it seems like a long time that Europe has had more open borders between countries, there was a long preceding history of closed borders with somewhat limited access points.
The US has never had closed borders between states (that I'm aware of - other than during the civil war - in any systematic way). It would simply be completely unenforceable to tell people the state was closed. (Some states are requiring something like quarantines of those changing states, but that's not particularly enforceable, either.)
In the more populous states - and I don't just mean East and West coast ones - there are hundreds of roads that cross state lines. In my part of the country (Michigan, Great Lakes area) it's quite common for there to be roads on 1 mile grid lines nearly everywhere, even in the rural areas, and frequently there are roads within those grids, too. Near borders, people routinely work in one state, work or shop in another - in some cases, the nearest urban area in the "home" state is much further away than one in a neighboring state. Major metropolitan areas sprawl uninterrupted across multiple states, the city streets completely interconnected at pretty much every block as if one city (yes, the cities are usually governmentally separate, but completely contiguous). Commonly, we don't even think of states as having borders: We call them "state lines", similar to "county lines" or "city limits".
There is no practical way to limit movement between states, except by requesting it of the populace. Even if someone had the power, it would be absurdly unenforceable, and in many cases have very major negative economic consequences in itself. (Even the border closure with Canada has exceptions for essential workers, and that's been a pain point in some areas, but at least there are generally limited/defined crossing points as an enforcement mechanism.)
All this. While I think Australia's model has a lot we ought to have done too, I think the controlling travel between states element is one that we simply practically could not have done given the much larger number of states and how densely interconnected most of them are, as well tradition as Ann explains above.5 -
We have bars closed in Minnesota. Wisconsin does not. The metro area of Minneapolis/St. Paul borders Wisconsin. Last week, the mayor of a WI border town closed bars at 10 pm to discourage Minnesotans from traveling to WI to visit their bars. According to the mayor, most patrons arrive after 10. The problems interstate travel present are apparent during covid. It’s hard to enforce edicts with differing policies. That some people are in still in denial, exacerbates the problem.
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I've mentioned many times our older friends down the street. They are the only ones we've socialized with as we both take serious precautions and never go without masks or eat inside restaurants.
Both my wife and our female friend worked in the dental field as assistants and in offices in the past. The lady, who is in her late 70s, called us last night and was crying. Her long time friend, the dentist she worked with for years back in TX, has Covid-19 now and is not doing well. She's in her mid 50s with no preexisting conditions. Just intubated and all vital signs not promising. She treated a patient, with PPE on, the day before Thanksgiving. Had Thanksgiving with all her kids and grandkids, who now all have it as well. She's hopeful she can recover but it's very concerning for her. Her friend asked the nurse to take a video because she's concerned she won't make it. So that's how our friend found out. She woke up and had an email with a video, basically her friend saying goodbye to all her good friends, from an ICU bed with no family.30 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
True, but, some of our governors are doing their best. There has never been any national policy that has slowed down the spread. It’s apparent how that has worked out.4
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