Coronavirus prep
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We have bars closed in Minnesota. Wisconsin does not. The metro area of Minneapolis/St. Paul borders Wisconsin. Last week, the mayor of a WI border town closed bars at 10 pm to discourage Minnesotans from traveling to WI to visit their bars. According to the mayor, most patrons arrive after 10. The problems interstate travel present are apparent during covid. It’s hard to enforce edicts with differing policies. That some people are in still in denial, exacerbates the problem.
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I've mentioned many times our older friends down the street. They are the only ones we've socialized with as we both take serious precautions and never go without masks or eat inside restaurants.
Both my wife and our female friend worked in the dental field as assistants and in offices in the past. The lady, who is in her late 70s, called us last night and was crying. Her long time friend, the dentist she worked with for years back in TX, has Covid-19 now and is not doing well. She's in her mid 50s with no preexisting conditions. Just intubated and all vital signs not promising. She treated a patient, with PPE on, the day before Thanksgiving. Had Thanksgiving with all her kids and grandkids, who now all have it as well. She's hopeful she can recover but it's very concerning for her. Her friend asked the nurse to take a video because she's concerned she won't make it. So that's how our friend found out. She woke up and had an email with a video, basically her friend saying goodbye to all her good friends, from an ICU bed with no family.30 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
True, but, some of our governors are doing their best. There has never been any national policy that has slowed down the spread. It’s apparent how that has worked out.4 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.10 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
As was explained well above, the US can't do that.
I live in NW Iowa. Peoe here have doctors in Nebraska and South Dakota. Also, a lot of people live in one state and work in either of the two adjoining states. You can't keep these people from their work or doctors. Right now, patients are being sent to Omaha or Sioux Falls to hospitals if there is no room for them locally. Bow would these people get to these other hospitals.
I guess if you live in your own lite bubble, you just can't understand.12 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
I live in Illinois in the US. For our non-US friends Illinois is bordered by 4 states, Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky and Missouri. The western boarder with Missouri is the Mississippi river so access is limited due to the need for bridges. For the remainder of Illinois' other boarders. as mentioned there is generally a road every mile that connects with adjoining states. Given this situation there are over 400 points where a road enters Illinois from a neighboring state. You could possibly monitor the Interstates, (red lines on the map, similar to the Motorway in GB) but not all of the other 400+ entry points.
Why do you hate our Iowa neighbors?
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
I live in Illinois in the US. For our non-US friends Illinois is bordered by 4 states, Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky and Missouri. The western boarder with Missouri is the Mississippi river so access is limited due to the need for bridges. For the remainder of Illinois' other boarders. as mentioned there is generally a road every mile that connects with adjoining states. Given this situation there are over 400 points where a road enters Illinois from a neighboring state. You could possibly monitor the Interstates, (red lines on the map, similar to the Motorway in GB) but not all of the other 400+ entry points.
I can't believe you forgot Iowa! (Otherwise I agree with everything you said.)
I'd add that it's not the size of the US relative to Australia, but -- among other things -- the number of states, as well as the intense interconnectedness for most of us, and the particular manner in which the population is spread out in much of the country. A comparison with England and its borders with Wales and Scotland is not at all comparable either.8 -
Heh, I spent too much time on my second paragraph, and you beat me to it!4
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We’re in the same boat - we live in a tiny branch of WV, bordered by Maryland and Virginia... you cross borders multiple times going pretty much anywhere it seems. Most people work in a different state than what they live in (our area is a “bedroom community” for people that work in Washington DC - they commute and hour and a half one way, but cost of living is far cheaper on this side of the mountain). Further complicating things is my husband now drives a company vehicle which has plates from a state 6 hours away! Early on in COVID when there were many unknowns he and his employees carried paperwork from the company stating their purpose for being out of state, but it never became much of an issue. I think Maryland had stricter laws, but we stick to WV and VA for most everything. 20-30 minutes could take us to 4 different states!4
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"But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing."
Rennie, what? They are NOT doing what they should be doing. Everyone there is wearing masks, not going to parties and weddings etc... ? Sorry but that is not correct. If they were it wouldn't be spreading like it is. One of my USA friends told me this week a guy he works with is going to a wedding with around a hundred people there. That is crazy. The couple hosting it for one could have put it off till the vaccine is out and just had a very tiny wedding with maybe just their parents for now if they are in a rush. Apparently many don't care if half their guests end up in hospital or dead as long as they have a party. Selfish? Yes. I have no idea why it's allowed. It wouldn't be here if we had high numbers of people dying.
You could be right, I could be wrong, but that's not how I interpreted Reenie's question, in context, when she wrote:I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I read that (paraphrasing) as "Wouldn't the masks, social distancing and staying home reduce flu spread this year? But if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing, why is Covid so bad?"
IOW, I took that part you quoted out of context as a counterfactual, implying "but I guess people must not be doing enough of the right things, or Covid wouldn't be so bad".
Like I said, maybe I'm interpreting wrong.
Thank you.
I *know* people aren't following the mask and social distancing recommendations. 
I see it. 2 -
I suppose it would be possible to stop people at borders, leaving and entering states, but logistically a nightmare for law enforcement. It’s done in states bordering Canada and Mexico, with varying degrees of success. Minnesota has miles of natural waterway borders, various rivers, and Lake Superior, that we share with Canada, No Dak, & Wisconsin, where there is limited bridge access to other jurisdictions. There are also a lot of miles of borders with abundant road access to our neighboring states, So Dak, No Dak, Iowa, Wisconsin and Canada. Multiply that times 50. Not an easy, nor inexpensive task. Millions of miles of roads in the US.
All of our individual states are part of the whole country. Governed by federal, state, and local jurisdictions. It would be a much better solution to have had a federal mandate from the beginning. Hindsight is 20/20, but, we may have had a much different outcome than the “over by Easter” (04/10/20) that we heard 9 months ago.4 -
missysippy930 wrote: »I suppose it would be possible to stop people at borders, leaving and entering states, but logistically a nightmare for law enforcement. It’s done in states bordering Canada and Mexico, with varying degrees of success. Minnesota has miles of natural waterway borders, various rivers, and Lake Superior, that we share with Canada, No Dak, & Wisconsin, where there is limited bridge access to other jurisdictions. There are also a lot of miles of borders with abundant road access to our neighboring states, So Dak, No Dak, Iowa, Wisconsin and Canada. Multiply that times 50. Not an easy, nor inexpensive task. Millions of miles of roads in the US.
All of our individual states are part of the whole country. Governed by federal, state, and local jurisdictions. It would be a much better solution to have had a federal mandate from the beginning. Hindsight is 20/20, but, we may have had a much different outcome than the “over by Easter” (04/10/20) that we heard 9 months ago.
Exactly.
Since March, apparently if we were "really trying" enough, we would have hired something from thousands to tens (hundreds?) of thousands of new state-border guards, trained them, put up many thousands of barricades to close roads (don't know what we do about the very common ORVs and privately-owned boats, not to mention cyclists/pedestrians), and closed those state borders . . . a thing for which we have neither precedent nor obvious legal structure.
That, in parallel with trying to hire and train something like tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of contract tracers (estimated in itself, under one proposal, to cost something like $12 billion).
Ooookaaaayyyyyyy.6 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
I'd stop hoping--never going to happen. Maybe you should think about why the pandemic wasn't squelched or isolated a little more quickly at it's origins. We can all play the "what if" and "hoping" game, but it just gets us back to where we are.7 -
So I had to go to a bigger grocery store today (Meijer) because I needed some stuff that my normal weekly stores do not carry (Aldi and Fresh Thyme). It was horrible. SO many employees and vendors not wearing masks, not wearing them correctly, or not social distancing... or a mix. I have already sent an email to corporate, but knowing that they just don't seem to care means I won't be going back. And I will be telling as many people as possible.
Good for you for complaining to corporate. That reminds me, I need to complain to Home Depot about the same but all I can find for an email is Law Enforcement Inquiries:
https://www.homedepot.com/c/Contact_Us1 -
I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<
We haven't needed to use masks too much in most of Australia but I did hear flu numbers were way down this winter so I'd say more people got the flu vaccine. I did and made sure all my family did as well.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<
We haven't needed to use masks too much in most of Australia but I did hear flu numbers were way down this winter so I'd say more people got the flu vaccine. I did and made sure all my family did as well.
'Flu numbers were massively down for New Zealand, too. I believe it was put down to:
a) we went into lockdown right at the beginning of 'flu season;
b) more people got vaccinated; and
c) we we came out of hibernation, everyone was hyper aware of hand sanitation and physical distancing.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018767843/near-extinction-of-influenza-in-nz-as-numbers-drop-due-to-lockdown10 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<
We haven't needed to use masks too much in most of Australia but I did hear flu numbers were way down this winter so I'd say more people got the flu vaccine. I did and made sure all my family did as well.
'Flu numbers were massively down for New Zealand, too. I believe it was put down to:
a) we went into lockdown right at the beginning of 'flu season;
b) more people got vaccinated; and
c) we we came out of hibernation, everyone was hyper aware of hand sanitation and physical distancing.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018767843/near-extinction-of-influenza-in-nz-as-numbers-drop-due-to-lockdown
Yes, and I also think there has been a big shift to actually staying home when sick. Quite a culture change from just toughing it out. I guess Coldral will have to come up with a new jingle... 😉6 -
missysippy930 wrote: »I suppose it would be possible to stop people at borders, leaving and entering states, but logistically a nightmare for law enforcement. It’s done in states bordering Canada and Mexico, with varying degrees of success. Minnesota has miles of natural waterway borders, various rivers, and Lake Superior, that we share with Canada, No Dak, & Wisconsin, where there is limited bridge access to other jurisdictions. There are also a lot of miles of borders with abundant road access to our neighboring states, So Dak, No Dak, Iowa, Wisconsin and Canada. Multiply that times 50. Not an easy, nor inexpensive task. Millions of miles of roads in the US.
All of our individual states are part of the whole country. Governed by federal, state, and local jurisdictions. It would be a much better solution to have had a federal mandate from the beginning. Hindsight is 20/20, but, we may have had a much different outcome than the “over by Easter” (04/10/20) that we heard 9 months ago.
Exactly.
Since March, apparently if we were "really trying" enough, we would have hired something from thousands to tens (hundreds?) of thousands of new state-border guards, trained them, put up many thousands of barricades to close roads (don't know what we do about the very common ORVs and privately-owned boats, not to mention cyclists/pedestrians), and closed those state borders . . . a thing for which we have neither precedent nor obvious legal structure.
That, in parallel with trying to hire and train something like tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of contract tracers (estimated in itself, under one proposal, to cost something like $12 billion).
Ooookaaaayyyyyyy.
Just to give you a little insight from a small European country (Belgium), surrounded by the big ones: Germany, France and the Netherlands and across the Channel the UK. Since March, our borders are closed (they were open when things got better over the summer). And yes, we have a vast network of roads that cross all borders as well, ranging from large highways to small hiking paths.
We also have loads of people working in one country and living in another; we have people who's closest supermarket is around the corner but in another country. When the borders were closed, it was mainly a communication and people stuck to it without much enforcement. At a certain time, the police was doing random checks as it seemed that traffic was picking up and that was enough to discourage people again.
A personal example: I'm an avid scuba diver but there is no available salt water where I live. The best spots are in The Netherlands and we could go there very safely. We could get in the car, park at the waterfront, gear up, dive, change and get into our car again without actually meeting anyone. The probability that we would be checked by police is extremely small, but we don't do it because it is asked from the population to refrain crossing borders. None of our friends and acquaintances are crossing neither.
My point is that I think there is mainly a large cultural difference, not as much a logistical one. When our government tells people that there is a restriction some people will question it and be critical but the vast majority will comply and enforcement will hardly be needed.
Although I am scared that during Christmas and New Year's eve compliance will slide and the wish to host family events will prevail; and we will see a spike in deaths again after these holidays.14 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<
We haven't needed to use masks too much in most of Australia but I did hear flu numbers were way down this winter so I'd say more people got the flu vaccine. I did and made sure all my family did as well.
Cant speak for all states - but here in South Australia- yes flu cases were WAY down on normal - which I put down to these things_ enforced lockdowns, people staying home when sick, social distancing, better hygiene and more people vaccinated.
I would be amazed if flu cases were not down in all of Australia
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Most states are connected by highways - there was some police presence at borders.
Some people tried to sneak in via back roads - one car was bogged and had to be rescued (needless to say, also copping big fine)
Domestic flights were almost non existent during this time.
and I guess most people just complied - sure, more of them could of trekked through the bush off the highway if they wanted to - but how to become a social pariah in one easy hit.
Like some young people who went into Queensland against the rules - you didnt meet with a warm reception by doing this.
Like other laws I guess - we don't have police checking every car to see if you are wearing a seatbelt - but most people just comply
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Antiopelle wrote: »Just to give you a little insight from a small European country (Belgium), surrounded by the big ones: Germany, France and the Netherlands and across the Channel the UK. Since March, our borders are closed (they were open when things got better over the summer). And yes, we have a vast network of roads that cross all borders as well, ranging from large highways to small hiking paths.
I think there's quite a difference between shutting country borders and shutting US state borders, despite the fact that they've been generally open due to the EU. US states have never had enforceable borders but for those which border Canada or Mexico.8 -
Vaccines arrive in NYC today... first in line are health care and front line workers.12
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@Chef_Barbell
I heard they are arriving in all 50 states today.
There are more roads in the US, than any other single country in the world. Flat out, an iimpossibility to monitor them all. What has been lacking here this entire time to slow the spread of covid, which other countries have successfully managed to do, is a national policy and leadership. We are about to surpass 300,000 deaths, and 16,500,000 cases. Those stats speak for themselves re: a viable national policy.9 -
missysippy930 wrote: »@Chef_Barbell
I heard they are arriving in all 50 states today.
There are more roads in the US, than any other single country in the world. Flat out, an iimpossibility to monitor them all. What has been lacking here this entire time to slow the spread of covid, which other countries have successfully managed to do, is a national policy and leadership. We are about to surpass 300,000 deaths, and 16,500,000 cases. Those stats speak for themselves re: national policy.
Thats good promising news. 🤞3 -
I doubt most (if any) US states have enough state police troops to adequately man every single possible road into the state. It's just never been something they've needed to do, so they wouldn't staff for it, especially considering how razor thin state budgets are. The federal government is relied on in a crisis by the states because the federal government's budget is way more flexible than state budgets are allowed to be.
Regardless, I can't even imagine what kind of backlash from the anti-restrictions groups would have resulted in any state trying to close it's borders.9 -
I thought this was a nice explanation of where we are regarding whether mRNA vaccines can prevent spread. The NY Times does have a paywall, but it gives you several articles free first, so hopefully it is accessible.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-mask.html
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I doubt most (if any) US states have enough state police troops to adequately man every single possible road into the state. It's just never been something they've needed to do, so they wouldn't staff for it, especially considering how razor thin state budgets are. The federal government is relied on in a crisis by the states because the federal government's budget is way more flexible than state budgets are allowed to be.
Regardless, I can't even imagine what kind of backlash from the anti-restrictions groups would have resulted in any state trying to close it's borders.
Except California, perhaps. Maybe there are roads I don't know about, but CA has had checkpoints on roads entering the state for years. They are looking for fruit mostly. It's a thing... but to be fair, I've driven through and just been waved through the checkpoint without even getting asked if I had fruits. Maybe they recognized my username? (kidding).4 -
Antiopelle wrote: »missysippy930 wrote: »I suppose it would be possible to stop people at borders, leaving and entering states, but logistically a nightmare for law enforcement. It’s done in states bordering Canada and Mexico, with varying degrees of success. Minnesota has miles of natural waterway borders, various rivers, and Lake Superior, that we share with Canada, No Dak, & Wisconsin, where there is limited bridge access to other jurisdictions. There are also a lot of miles of borders with abundant road access to our neighboring states, So Dak, No Dak, Iowa, Wisconsin and Canada. Multiply that times 50. Not an easy, nor inexpensive task. Millions of miles of roads in the US.
All of our individual states are part of the whole country. Governed by federal, state, and local jurisdictions. It would be a much better solution to have had a federal mandate from the beginning. Hindsight is 20/20, but, we may have had a much different outcome than the “over by Easter” (04/10/20) that we heard 9 months ago.
Exactly.
Since March, apparently if we were "really trying" enough, we would have hired something from thousands to tens (hundreds?) of thousands of new state-border guards, trained them, put up many thousands of barricades to close roads (don't know what we do about the very common ORVs and privately-owned boats, not to mention cyclists/pedestrians), and closed those state borders . . . a thing for which we have neither precedent nor obvious legal structure.
That, in parallel with trying to hire and train something like tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of contract tracers (estimated in itself, under one proposal, to cost something like $12 billion).
Ooookaaaayyyyyyy.
Just to give you a little insight from a small European country (Belgium), surrounded by the big ones: Germany, France and the Netherlands and across the Channel the UK. Since March, our borders are closed (they were open when things got better over the summer). And yes, we have a vast network of roads that cross all borders as well, ranging from large highways to small hiking paths.
We also have loads of people working in one country and living in another; we have people who's closest supermarket is around the corner but in another country. When the borders were closed, it was mainly a communication and people stuck to it without much enforcement. At a certain time, the police was doing random checks as it seemed that traffic was picking up and that was enough to discourage people again.
A personal example: I'm an avid scuba diver but there is no available salt water where I live. The best spots are in The Netherlands and we could go there very safely. We could get in the car, park at the waterfront, gear up, dive, change and get into our car again without actually meeting anyone. The probability that we would be checked by police is extremely small, but we don't do it because it is asked from the population to refrain crossing borders. None of our friends and acquaintances are crossing neither.
My point is that I think there is mainly a large cultural difference, not as much a logistical one. When our government tells people that there is a restriction some people will question it and be critical but the vast majority will comply and enforcement will hardly be needed.
Although I am scared that during Christmas and New Year's eve compliance will slide and the wish to host family events will prevail; and we will see a spike in deaths again after these holidays.
There is a massive difference between closing off borders from neighboring countries (as we have) and closing off the borders to all of the lower 48 states from each other. Logistically, it would be a massive, if not impossible undertaking...that kind of man power, trained and authorized to perform such duties simply doesn't exist...never mind the legal issues.
First and foremost, you have an issue of constitutionality. As citizens of the United States we have a constitutional right to travel freely between states and no state can make laws that would abridge that right...and the constitution is a pretty big deal. You also have jurisdiction issues...States could in theory control their own state highways and local roadways (save for that constitutionality issue), but they have no jurisdiction over the interstate highways as these are under federal jurisdiction...but again, you have massive logistical issues to deal with either way. As of current, New Mexico has 517 State Troopers to cover roughly 122,000 square miles...there is no way they could control all of the state highways and county and municipal roads going in and out of the state.
The leadership in NM has strongly discouraged out of state travel...and I would say there is a relatively high rate of compliance relative to interstate travel pre-COVID. The state also discourages travel to New Mexico and has done things like close state parks to anyone other than NM citizens and does ID checks at the park gates. Basically, you can come here, and no body is going to legally stop you...but once you're here, there's not going to be anything for you to do.13 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »I doubt most (if any) US states have enough state police troops to adequately man every single possible road into the state. It's just never been something they've needed to do, so they wouldn't staff for it, especially considering how razor thin state budgets are. The federal government is relied on in a crisis by the states because the federal government's budget is way more flexible than state budgets are allowed to be.
Regardless, I can't even imagine what kind of backlash from the anti-restrictions groups would have resulted in any state trying to close it's borders.
Except California, perhaps. Maybe there are roads I don't know about, but CA has had checkpoints on roads entering the state for years. They are looking for fruit mostly. It's a thing... but to be fair, I've driven through and just been waved through the checkpoint without even getting asked if I had fruits. Maybe they recognized my username? (kidding).
They have 16 total checkpoints...a few of them are on state highways, but most are on major US highways or Interstates. They are also manned by the Border Protection Services which is a division of the California Department of Agriculture which was established in the 1920s...but I don't think the Dept of Agriculture has the authority to just stop interstate travel.8
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