Coronavirus prep
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
So you never use public transportation?
I haven't since March 16 (I remember since it was a Monday after the week in which covid gradually became the biggest thing, and immediately after the St Patrick's Day observed weekend when lots of people locally were acting like complete idiots in the bars). After I got to work that day, I was "am I crazy." I rode it home that night (the L, brown line) and it was already pretty much empty (had been that morning too), and drove to work the next three days (worked from home on that Friday). Since then, I've driven every time I've come into the office or gone somewhere I would ordinarily take public transit since (unless close enough to walk).
Personally, though, pre covid, it never bothered me (some lines were cleaner than others), but it's also a limited time and IME you don't feel like it's yours so you are touching things in the way I do when sitting in my office. It is likely irrational, but I'd really hate having a communal desk. (Probably not likely, but I do think there will be a movement to reduce/consolidate office space after this, and to let people work more from home. I like the flexibility, but I miss working in the office with my co workers a lot, and still do about once a week (was doing it more before the cases spiked up again). However, I also do like that it takes me no time to get to work. Back in the day even the L was faster than commuting, but now driving is way faster. Parking would be too expensive to be worth it if my employer weren't currently paying, however.)4 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I'm following this whole WFH trend pretty close. Around 70% of my clients (I'm a headhunter) are the companies that put up the glass/metal on mid-rise and high-rise buildings across the US. I work with many of the top firms in NYC, Chicago, DC, Baltimore, Nashville, Philly and a few other cities. If we don't return to the offices (and I'm seeing signs of business pick back up), my business, at least on that side of it, will drop. I played a huge role in putting the teams together for Hudson Yards in NYC. It's not even completed yet and, from what I've heard, is like a ghost town compared to what it could be.
I've wondered for a long time...long before COVID about the sustainability of expensive office space in high rises in big cities. Years ago I worked as a financial auditor for a local CPA firm in Albuquerque (a fairly large local firm) and we merged with Moss Adams, a medium sized western regional CPA firm based out of Seattle (mergers are so much fun...). When we would attend trainings, auditors from Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Phoenix, etc were all surprised that we occupied two floors of a mid rise in Uptown Albuquerque as, for the most part, if they weren't at a client's premises, they worked from home as office space was too much overhead. Most of the offices did have a small amount of office space which was primarily a conference room for face to face meetings with clients, and some cubicles if one needed to be in the office. That was over a decade ago...I left about 2 years after the merger and I think they cut back the office space here from two to one floor after I left, even though it's pretty cheap here in NM.
My sister-in-law works for some swanky consulting firm in NYC and other than when she's at a client or traveling oversees to see a client, she's been working at home for about 15 years now. My brother-in-law is much the same...he's a senior manager for Deloite and he's either at home or in the field with a client.
I've just wondered about this for a very long time.4 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I'm following this whole WFH trend pretty close. Around 70% of my clients (I'm a headhunter) are the companies that put up the glass/metal on mid-rise and high-rise buildings across the US. I work with many of the top firms in NYC, Chicago, DC, Baltimore, Nashville, Philly and a few other cities. If we don't return to the offices (and I'm seeing signs of business pick back up), my business, at least on that side of it, will drop. I played a huge role in putting the teams together for Hudson Yards in NYC. It's not even completed yet and, from what I've heard, is like a ghost town compared to what it could be.
I've wondered for a long time...long before COVID about the sustainability of expensive office space in high rises in big cities. Years ago I worked as a financial auditor for a local CPA firm in Albuquerque (a fairly large local firm) and we merged with Moss Adams, a medium sized western regional CPA firm based out of Seattle (mergers are so much fun...). When we would attend trainings, auditors from Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Phoenix, etc were all surprised that we occupied two floors of a mid rise in Uptown Albuquerque as, for the most part, if they weren't at a client's premises, they worked from home as office space was too much overhead. Most of the offices did have a small amount of office space which was primarily a conference room for face to face meetings with clients, and some cubicles if one needed to be in the office. That was over a decade ago...I left about 2 years after the merger and I think they cut back the office space here from two to one floor after I left, even though it's pretty cheap here in NM.
My sister-in-law works for some swanky consulting firm in NYC and other than when she's at a client or traveling oversees to see a client, she's been working at home for about 15 years now. My brother-in-law is much the same...he's a senior manager for Deloite and he's either at home or in the field with a client.
I've just wondered about this for a very long time.
It's human nature, IMHO, to slack off a bit from home. While the opportunity is there to be way more productive, some can't. I would say 80% of people just can't work from home. I hate to sound cynical, but when I started my own recruiting firm, I paid people very non-traditionally with double or triple compensation of brick and mortar places. I also managed everyone remotely. Though they were 1099 (because of that, I could never require quotas or legally push metrics), I could see what everyone produced through the shared software. Even my own son and his best friend, neither of who I would consider lazy, couldn't produce 1/3 of the numbers I produce, though they had every tool I had starting in the business and way more (they had myself as a mentor -- when I started, I had no one). But I started in a boiler room environment with someone standing over my shoulder making sure I placed 50 to 60 calls a day (now it's different -- you use texts, emails and Linkedin, but there still are metrics). I had to tell my son and his friend (my last two recruiters) to find something different last year. They are both killing it selling solar in California now, when Covid doesn't prevent them from sales calls. Both of them needed an environment where someone was pushing numbers, just like I did years ago, every single day. Most businesses are finding the same thing.
This may sound controversial, but WFH is something you have to prove and earn. It's tough to do and focus. I actually keep software that times my own productivity through the day and measures it. I hired a consultant just to track MY numbers and I own the company! I just find that helps me. If my numbers are off, I have a paid consultant questioning me at the end of the month. I know, sounds weird, but it works for me.
Longer term, HR does not want to be babysitters. I read a study where the younger generation touches their phones, on average, 2617 times a day. That's staggering. How many times a day do you think they are touching them without anyone being able to watch them? Most in offices at least try to hide how addicted they are to their mobile devices.
I think that good companies will reward folks that have proven they can be productive during Covid. It's shown companies things can get done without a brick and mortar building, which has always been the case, and it's given them the processes/mechanisms to do so. But have they been as productive? Yahoo (yeah, I know, not a great company) worked from home for a decade before asking everyone to come back into the offices. Their employees weren't working as hard.
All these things are cyclical. I've been around in the recruiting business nearly 30 years now. When times are good, people are talking about six hour work days and four day work weeks and unlimited vacations. I've cautioned that the "good times" wouldn't last forever. When I talk to unemployed millennials now, they are (overall, there are exceptions) hot messes. They have never been through an economic downturn and have always been wined and dined to go to work for a different firm. Now, unfortunately, many can't even get an interview. It's a stark contrast. Very hard adjustment.
And in my industry? Total chaos and around 40% to 50% of headhunters will find different work. Happens every recession. Unless you've developed deep relationships with clients, which I'm fortunate enough to have, you're out of the business. Most transactional recruiters will be gone by middle of next year. They are really struggling already.1 -
Millennials "have never been through an economic downturn"? I beg to differ. Millennials currently make up adults ages 24-40, approximately. A good number of us were already out in the workforce when the 2007-2008 recession hit.11
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kshama2001 wrote: »IME, a lot of those who are less personally affected but who think the restrictions are important and are compliant want generous unemployment and other relief for those people and businesses who need it (and believe that restrictions or not business that rely on tourism, conventions, and travel generally would be in trouble, among others), whereas IME it is often those opposed to the restrictions who are against the relief efforts (or certain of them, like the more generous unemployment).
I 100% believe that the restrictions are important and that those impacted by a shut down need a safety net that is better then what we currently offer in the US. We can not expect to just close everything up, make people stay home, and then tell them "too bad so sad" when they don't have money for bills or groceries. Unemployment was not created to handle something like this. It is to keep someone afloat long enough to get another job. It is not a long term solution to job loss. Something else needs to be provided if we want tighter restrictions.
I am blessed and luck as heck that I can do my job from home. I have been work from home since March with no current end in sight. In face, even after all this is over, I will most likely still be WFH at least part time with a day or two in the office. If there is any silver lining, it has shown the people at the top that WFH is a viable option which they were against before.
I'd been WFM since 2011 for an employer that was generally against it, but was willing to do that for me because I'd worked in the office for 3 years before moving out of state to be closer to my aging mother. During those three years he'd also observed me checking in (well, working really) remotely while on vacation, so was confident in my work ethic.
I want to get another WFM job and am hoping one silver lining from this dreadful experience is that more employers are open to it now.
Good for you. My employer was never comfortable with people working in places where he couldn't see them (salesmen on the road for example).
Now I'm mostly into office work, I had opportunity to work from home in the early days of COVID19. Then one day I got a call saying they were bringing everybody back in to the office and would appreciate my return as well. My bosses are 10 and 15 years younger than I am, so they have a hard time being tactful telling me things that don't make sense.
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cwolfman13 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I'm following this whole WFH trend pretty close. Around 70% of my clients (I'm a headhunter) are the companies that put up the glass/metal on mid-rise and high-rise buildings across the US. I work with many of the top firms in NYC, Chicago, DC, Baltimore, Nashville, Philly and a few other cities. If we don't return to the offices (and I'm seeing signs of business pick back up), my business, at least on that side of it, will drop. I played a huge role in putting the teams together for Hudson Yards in NYC. It's not even completed yet and, from what I've heard, is like a ghost town compared to what it could be.
I've wondered for a long time...long before COVID about the sustainability of expensive office space in high rises in big cities. Years ago I worked as a financial auditor for a local CPA firm in Albuquerque (a fairly large local firm) and we merged with Moss Adams, a medium sized western regional CPA firm based out of Seattle (mergers are so much fun...). When we would attend trainings, auditors from Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Phoenix, etc were all surprised that we occupied two floors of a mid rise in Uptown Albuquerque as, for the most part, if they weren't at a client's premises, they worked from home as office space was too much overhead. Most of the offices did have a small amount of office space which was primarily a conference room for face to face meetings with clients, and some cubicles if one needed to be in the office. That was over a decade ago...I left about 2 years after the merger and I think they cut back the office space here from two to one floor after I left, even though it's pretty cheap here in NM.
My sister-in-law works for some swanky consulting firm in NYC and other than when she's at a client or traveling oversees to see a client, she's been working at home for about 15 years now. My brother-in-law is much the same...he's a senior manager for Deloite and he's either at home or in the field with a client.
I've just wondered about this for a very long time.
That's one reason I think this will vary: The cost of space. It's always expensive (compared to requiring little or none), but office space here (mid Michigan, medium sized metro, lots of land close-in) is *much* more affordable than in dense, expensive cities, especially cities with spread somewhat limited by geography (water, mountains, etc.) or political factors (transit options/timing/logistics, say). That space cost needs to be balanced off against the productivity implications Mike is talking about (among other things), when it comes to overall costs (and I'm not saying all decisions will be rational, because humans).
There are other factors, too, like type of work. Some forms of work benefit more from informal co-worker interaction (some innovation-oriented places are noting this, I understand), whereas for other work that matters very little (like the sales or some consulting work, maybe, where the link to customers can be more important than to co-workers; or things that are very solo by nature).
In general, something I'm finding interesting to consider is which things in society will reach some kind of tipping point, or reach it much quicker, because of the pandemic, and which will wither away if we reach a point where potential contagion is no longer a major influence. I'm thinking not just about WFH, but also things like alternative shopping modes (online, curbside, etc.), tele-health, interactive exercise equipment (Peloton and what-not) vs. gym activities, webcast live music events, online education, and more. All of these things have been growing trends, and the pandemic has given them a bit of a push. It's interesting to me to consider which will snowball, and which may not.
Overall, in my paranoid-ish moments, I wonder if the pandemic is pushing us closer to the world of Wall-E, where there are more of us in our comfy rolly chairs in front of screens to do nearly everything, eating yummy snacks, and interacting mostly virtually. A huge difference between that world and our current one is that we don't have the robot servants; instead we're relying on (and sometimes poorly treating) a class of front-line human service workers.
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Millennials "have never been through an economic downturn"? I beg to differ. Millennials currently make up adults ages 24-40, approximately. A good number of us were already out in the workforce when the 2007-2008 recession hit.
Millennials are around 39 tops now. 12 years ago they were 27. Every single company wants someone with five years of experience or less in the worst of times. The market is still decent for cheaper employees, as it always is in harder times. No one in that age group had a harder time in the last recession finding a job. They were the ones displacing older employees in droves. But you're right, I'm more referring to the younger ones in that group that are finding themselves unemployed for the first time ever. It's not easy to go from a hot job market where everyone is fighting over you (if you have certain skills) to the opposite.3 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I'm following this whole WFH trend pretty close. Around 70% of my clients (I'm a headhunter) are the companies that put up the glass/metal on mid-rise and high-rise buildings across the US. I work with many of the top firms in NYC, Chicago, DC, Baltimore, Nashville, Philly and a few other cities. If we don't return to the offices (and I'm seeing signs of business pick back up), my business, at least on that side of it, will drop. I played a huge role in putting the teams together for Hudson Yards in NYC. It's not even completed yet and, from what I've heard, is like a ghost town compared to what it could be.
I've wondered for a long time...long before COVID about the sustainability of expensive office space in high rises in big cities. Years ago I worked as a financial auditor for a local CPA firm in Albuquerque (a fairly large local firm) and we merged with Moss Adams, a medium sized western regional CPA firm based out of Seattle (mergers are so much fun...). When we would attend trainings, auditors from Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Phoenix, etc were all surprised that we occupied two floors of a mid rise in Uptown Albuquerque as, for the most part, if they weren't at a client's premises, they worked from home as office space was too much overhead. Most of the offices did have a small amount of office space which was primarily a conference room for face to face meetings with clients, and some cubicles if one needed to be in the office. That was over a decade ago...I left about 2 years after the merger and I think they cut back the office space here from two to one floor after I left, even though it's pretty cheap here in NM.
My sister-in-law works for some swanky consulting firm in NYC and other than when she's at a client or traveling oversees to see a client, she's been working at home for about 15 years now. My brother-in-law is much the same...he's a senior manager for Deloite and he's either at home or in the field with a client.
I've just wondered about this for a very long time.
It's human nature, IMHO, to slack off a bit from home. While the opportunity is there to be way more productive, some can't. I would say 80% of people just can't work from home. I hate to sound cynical, but when I started my own recruiting firm, I paid people very non-traditionally with double or triple compensation of brick and mortar places. I also managed everyone remotely. Though they were 1099 (because of that, I could never require quotas or legally push metrics), I could see what everyone produced through the shared software. Even my own son and his best friend, neither of who I would consider lazy, couldn't produce 1/3 of the numbers I produce, though they had every tool I had starting in the business and way more (they had myself as a mentor -- when I started, I had no one). But I started in a boiler room environment with someone standing over my shoulder making sure I placed 50 to 60 calls a day (now it's different -- you use texts, emails and Linkedin, but there still are metrics). I had to tell my son and his friend (my last two recruiters) to find something different last year. They are both killing it selling solar in California now, when Covid doesn't prevent them from sales calls. Both of them needed an environment where someone was pushing numbers, just like I did years ago, every single day. Most businesses are finding the same thing.
This may sound controversial, but WFH is something you have to prove and earn. It's tough to do and focus. I actually keep software that times my own productivity through the day and measures it. I hired a consultant just to track MY numbers and I own the company! I just find that helps me. If my numbers are off, I have a paid consultant questioning me at the end of the month. I know, sounds weird, but it works for me.
[snip]
@MikePfirrman, (or anyone) are you familiar with the time tracker HubStaff? I had a one time gig with a company who used that. I only worked a few hours a day, so it was super easy for me to focus. But although I was working continuously, I got scores like Activity = 70%, when I thought it should have been in the 90s. Since I'd always been an A student, this really bothered me.
I was doing QC for a company in which the writers had English as a second language. I worked in their QC system and also spent some time documenting common grammatical and other errors in a Google doc. While my time in the Google doc may have been part of the problem, by the second part of the project I was no longer documenting and 100% in their system.3 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
So you never use public transportation?
I haven't since March 16 (I remember since it was a Monday after the week in which covid gradually became the biggest thing, and immediately after the St Patrick's Day observed weekend when lots of people locally were acting like complete idiots in the bars). After I got to work that day, I was "am I crazy." I rode it home that night (the L, brown line) and it was already pretty much empty (had been that morning too), and drove to work the next three days (worked from home on that Friday). Since then, I've driven every time I've come into the office or gone somewhere I would ordinarily take public transit since (unless close enough to walk).
Personally, though, pre covid, it never bothered me (some lines were cleaner than others), but it's also a limited time and IME you don't feel like it's yours so you are touching things in the way I do when sitting in my office. It is likely irrational, but I'd really hate having a communal desk. (Probably not likely, but I do think there will be a movement to reduce/consolidate office space after this, and to let people work more from home. I like the flexibility, but I miss working in the office with my co workers a lot, and still do about once a week (was doing it more before the cases spiked up again). However, I also do like that it takes me no time to get to work. Back in the day even the L was faster than commuting, but now driving is way faster. Parking would be too expensive to be worth it if my employer weren't currently paying, however.)Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
So you never use public transportation?
Nope, owned my own car since the age of 16. I've never lived in an area where public transport was a big thing.
I'm in the same situation with car since 16. We have public transit were I live now but have never been on it. Have been on subways, etc. on trips to larger cities as well as planes, airport and other shuttles. Those are dirty as all get our but I just suck it up and figure I'm building my immune system.
They were redoing some of our offices before 'rona and in the new designs nobody had an assigned area (except for a small locker) with typically working there 5 days a week. You just came in and sat down in an open slot.
There basically isn’t public transportation in Memphis. We have buses but they have limited routes and hours. Most people would not consider it as a possibility. Even extremely poor people here have cars. Taxis are also prohibitively expensive. Before Uber existed, if your car broke down you just laid down on the sidewalk and cried.
I find the discussion about working from home being distracting interesting, because in my experience it’s the opposite. I work as a video game artist and being in an office meant everyone was always hanging out together or gaming or eating, when it wasn’t time for a pointless meeting. Working from home, you do what needs done to meet the deadline in a focused fashion, then the rest of your time is your own.13 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
So you never use public transportation?
I haven't since March 16 (I remember since it was a Monday after the week in which covid gradually became the biggest thing, and immediately after the St Patrick's Day observed weekend when lots of people locally were acting like complete idiots in the bars). After I got to work that day, I was "am I crazy." I rode it home that night (the L, brown line) and it was already pretty much empty (had been that morning too), and drove to work the next three days (worked from home on that Friday). Since then, I've driven every time I've come into the office or gone somewhere I would ordinarily take public transit since (unless close enough to walk).
Personally, though, pre covid, it never bothered me (some lines were cleaner than others), but it's also a limited time and IME you don't feel like it's yours so you are touching things in the way I do when sitting in my office. It is likely irrational, but I'd really hate having a communal desk. (Probably not likely, but I do think there will be a movement to reduce/consolidate office space after this, and to let people work more from home. I like the flexibility, but I miss working in the office with my co workers a lot, and still do about once a week (was doing it more before the cases spiked up again). However, I also do like that it takes me no time to get to work. Back in the day even the L was faster than commuting, but now driving is way faster. Parking would be too expensive to be worth it if my employer weren't currently paying, however.)Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
So you never use public transportation?
Nope, owned my own car since the age of 16. I've never lived in an area where public transport was a big thing.
I'm in the same situation with car since 16. We have public transit were I live now but have never been on it. Have been on subways, etc. on trips to larger cities as well as planes, airport and other shuttles. Those are dirty as all get our but I just suck it up and figure I'm building my immune system.
They were redoing some of our offices before 'rona and in the new designs nobody had an assigned area (except for a small locker) with typically working there 5 days a week. You just came in and sat down in an open slot.
...I find the discussion about working from home being distracting interesting, because in my experience it’s the opposite. I work as a video game artist and being in an office meant everyone was always hanging out together or gaming or eating, when it wasn’t time for a pointless meeting. Working from home, you do what needs done to meet the deadline in a focused fashion, then the rest of your time is your own.
Yes, I found my coworkers FAR more distracting when I was in the same building with them as opposed to 1,000 + miles away.5 -
HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
Agreed, but also... how do I find co-workers that I need to talk to in-person if at the office? Part of the benefit of working at a physical office is being able to find people who refuse to respond to emails, etc. If they are not there on my 2 days or are at some random desk, that doesn't work. Also, if I'm going to have a desk, I like to be able to keep stuff in the desk (such as a BG meter and supplies in case of a hypoglycemic event) and on the desk and wall (my calendars of choice). It just would make more sense to WFH all 5 days and not have a desk.5 -
kshama2001 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
So you never use public transportation?
I haven't since March 16 (I remember since it was a Monday after the week in which covid gradually became the biggest thing, and immediately after the St Patrick's Day observed weekend when lots of people locally were acting like complete idiots in the bars). After I got to work that day, I was "am I crazy." I rode it home that night (the L, brown line) and it was already pretty much empty (had been that morning too), and drove to work the next three days (worked from home on that Friday). Since then, I've driven every time I've come into the office or gone somewhere I would ordinarily take public transit since (unless close enough to walk).
Personally, though, pre covid, it never bothered me (some lines were cleaner than others), but it's also a limited time and IME you don't feel like it's yours so you are touching things in the way I do when sitting in my office. It is likely irrational, but I'd really hate having a communal desk. (Probably not likely, but I do think there will be a movement to reduce/consolidate office space after this, and to let people work more from home. I like the flexibility, but I miss working in the office with my co workers a lot, and still do about once a week (was doing it more before the cases spiked up again). However, I also do like that it takes me no time to get to work. Back in the day even the L was faster than commuting, but now driving is way faster. Parking would be too expensive to be worth it if my employer weren't currently paying, however.)Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
So you never use public transportation?
Nope, owned my own car since the age of 16. I've never lived in an area where public transport was a big thing.
I'm in the same situation with car since 16. We have public transit were I live now but have never been on it. Have been on subways, etc. on trips to larger cities as well as planes, airport and other shuttles. Those are dirty as all get our but I just suck it up and figure I'm building my immune system.
They were redoing some of our offices before 'rona and in the new designs nobody had an assigned area (except for a small locker) with typically working there 5 days a week. You just came in and sat down in an open slot.
...I find the discussion about working from home being distracting interesting, because in my experience it’s the opposite. I work as a video game artist and being in an office meant everyone was always hanging out together or gaming or eating, when it wasn’t time for a pointless meeting. Working from home, you do what needs done to meet the deadline in a focused fashion, then the rest of your time is your own.
Yes, I found my coworkers FAR more distracting when I was in the same building with them as opposed to 1,000 + miles away.
There's a certain portion of my job that benefits from bouncing ideas off each other and arguing things out or just generally working collaboratively. That part suffers, as although there are phones and (ugh) Zoom, it's just not the same. I also miss the human contact (that wasn't any more distracting than stuff at home). But not commuting does save time and my workout schedule is more flexible (although it was reasonably flexible at home). Although I like the extra time, I do miss some things about public transit, as it was an opportunity to just read a book or o something else (I had a Duolingo streak going and found that a fun thing to do when commuting). Even for things like writing, though, I just like being in the office. I can do all that stuff from home, but it's why I go into the office regularly (although most of the time I am home), even though I do not have to.
In ordinary times I wouldn't be using transit just to go to work, but to get around the city for things not in walking distance. I used to drive extremely rarely, unless I had bulky/heavy things to transport or were going somewhere where public transit was not convenient. I've always liked that this city has decent public transit (as well as that I live in a walkable neighborhood where I can do shopping and such locally).3 -
Millennials "have never been through an economic downturn"? I beg to differ. Millennials currently make up adults ages 24-40, approximately. A good number of us were already out in the workforce when the 2007-2008 recession hit.
Agreed. I'm a millennial and graduated with my first college degree in 2005... so I was in the workforce during the 2008-2009 recession. I was laid off in Feb. 2009 and spent 9 months unemployed while the unemployment rate was very high and jobs were competitive.7 -
FDA authorizes nation's first at-home, over-the-counter COVID-19 test
"The U.S. Food and Drug Administration on Tuesday authorized the nation's first home COVID-19 test that doesn't need a lab or medical provider's prescription.
The test, made by Australia-based Ellume, can deliver results in about 15 minutes and will cost about $30. The FDA authorized the Ellume tests for people age 2 and up, with or without symptoms.
Ellume's rapid antigen test includes a nasal swab for users to collect a sample and place into a cartridge. A smartphone app instructs consumers how to use the test and displays results. It allows results to be shared with a health provider."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/12/15/fda-authorizes-first-home-covid-19-test-ellume/3910420001/7 -
kshama2001 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
So you never use public transportation?
I haven't since March 16 (I remember since it was a Monday after the week in which covid gradually became the biggest thing, and immediately after the St Patrick's Day observed weekend when lots of people locally were acting like complete idiots in the bars). After I got to work that day, I was "am I crazy." I rode it home that night (the L, brown line) and it was already pretty much empty (had been that morning too), and drove to work the next three days (worked from home on that Friday). Since then, I've driven every time I've come into the office or gone somewhere I would ordinarily take public transit since (unless close enough to walk).
Personally, though, pre covid, it never bothered me (some lines were cleaner than others), but it's also a limited time and IME you don't feel like it's yours so you are touching things in the way I do when sitting in my office. It is likely irrational, but I'd really hate having a communal desk. (Probably not likely, but I do think there will be a movement to reduce/consolidate office space after this, and to let people work more from home. I like the flexibility, but I miss working in the office with my co workers a lot, and still do about once a week (was doing it more before the cases spiked up again). However, I also do like that it takes me no time to get to work. Back in the day even the L was faster than commuting, but now driving is way faster. Parking would be too expensive to be worth it if my employer weren't currently paying, however.)Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »HawkingRadiation wrote: »My company is taking surveys about how we would feel WFH 3 days/wk, in office for two, but no assigned cubes. (i.e. you just get assigned one on the two days you're in).
I'm all for that. I work more from home without the 45 min commute each way.
My company has tossed around a similar possibility and I have to say, the thought of sitting at a desk that some other random person sat at the day before makes me gag. There's the in-office nail clippers, the people that eat all kinds of greasy or crumbly food at their desks, etc. There are not enough sanitizing wipes in the world to make me comfortable 😷
So you never use public transportation?
Nope, owned my own car since the age of 16. I've never lived in an area where public transport was a big thing.
I'm in the same situation with car since 16. We have public transit were I live now but have never been on it. Have been on subways, etc. on trips to larger cities as well as planes, airport and other shuttles. Those are dirty as all get our but I just suck it up and figure I'm building my immune system.
They were redoing some of our offices before 'rona and in the new designs nobody had an assigned area (except for a small locker) with typically working there 5 days a week. You just came in and sat down in an open slot.
...I find the discussion about working from home being distracting interesting, because in my experience it’s the opposite. I work as a video game artist and being in an office meant everyone was always hanging out together or gaming or eating, when it wasn’t time for a pointless meeting. Working from home, you do what needs done to meet the deadline in a focused fashion, then the rest of your time is your own.
Yes, I found my coworkers FAR more distracting when I was in the same building with them as opposed to 1,000 + miles away.
ITA. In office, I spent at least an hour a day with someone standing in my office doorway rambling on about something I did not need to know. Not to mention people having loud conversations, smelling their food. I get more sleep now too, minus the commute, so I get more done in the AM than I used to. I intend to ask to WFH at least a day or two a week when the apocalypse is over.
To be fair, I'm 100% an introvert, and have no trouble focusing and ignoring the world when I'm by myself
16 -
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-britain-variant-idUSKBN28P158
Here is a source that I trust a bit more. Can anyone from UK tell if this is getting any air time this morning?0 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Millennials "have never been through an economic downturn"? I beg to differ. Millennials currently make up adults ages 24-40, approximately. A good number of us were already out in the workforce when the 2007-2008 recession hit.
Millennials are around 39 tops now. 12 years ago they were 27. Every single company wants someone with five years of experience or less in the worst of times. The market is still decent for cheaper employees, as it always is in harder times. No one in that age group had a harder time in the last recession finding a job. They were the ones displacing older employees in droves. But you're right, I'm more referring to the younger ones in that group that are finding themselves unemployed for the first time ever. It's not easy to go from a hot job market where everyone is fighting over you (if you have certain skills) to the opposite.
This is simply not true. You can't generalise that "every single company" wants anything or "no one" had a harder time finding a job. Where I work, for example, it's almost impossible to get a job without several years of experience.7 -
kshama2001 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I'm following this whole WFH trend pretty close. Around 70% of my clients (I'm a headhunter) are the companies that put up the glass/metal on mid-rise and high-rise buildings across the US. I work with many of the top firms in NYC, Chicago, DC, Baltimore, Nashville, Philly and a few other cities. If we don't return to the offices (and I'm seeing signs of business pick back up), my business, at least on that side of it, will drop. I played a huge role in putting the teams together for Hudson Yards in NYC. It's not even completed yet and, from what I've heard, is like a ghost town compared to what it could be.
I've wondered for a long time...long before COVID about the sustainability of expensive office space in high rises in big cities. Years ago I worked as a financial auditor for a local CPA firm in Albuquerque (a fairly large local firm) and we merged with Moss Adams, a medium sized western regional CPA firm based out of Seattle (mergers are so much fun...). When we would attend trainings, auditors from Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Phoenix, etc were all surprised that we occupied two floors of a mid rise in Uptown Albuquerque as, for the most part, if they weren't at a client's premises, they worked from home as office space was too much overhead. Most of the offices did have a small amount of office space which was primarily a conference room for face to face meetings with clients, and some cubicles if one needed to be in the office. That was over a decade ago...I left about 2 years after the merger and I think they cut back the office space here from two to one floor after I left, even though it's pretty cheap here in NM.
My sister-in-law works for some swanky consulting firm in NYC and other than when she's at a client or traveling oversees to see a client, she's been working at home for about 15 years now. My brother-in-law is much the same...he's a senior manager for Deloite and he's either at home or in the field with a client.
I've just wondered about this for a very long time.
It's human nature, IMHO, to slack off a bit from home. While the opportunity is there to be way more productive, some can't. I would say 80% of people just can't work from home. I hate to sound cynical, but when I started my own recruiting firm, I paid people very non-traditionally with double or triple compensation of brick and mortar places. I also managed everyone remotely. Though they were 1099 (because of that, I could never require quotas or legally push metrics), I could see what everyone produced through the shared software. Even my own son and his best friend, neither of who I would consider lazy, couldn't produce 1/3 of the numbers I produce, though they had every tool I had starting in the business and way more (they had myself as a mentor -- when I started, I had no one). But I started in a boiler room environment with someone standing over my shoulder making sure I placed 50 to 60 calls a day (now it's different -- you use texts, emails and Linkedin, but there still are metrics). I had to tell my son and his friend (my last two recruiters) to find something different last year. They are both killing it selling solar in California now, when Covid doesn't prevent them from sales calls. Both of them needed an environment where someone was pushing numbers, just like I did years ago, every single day. Most businesses are finding the same thing.
This may sound controversial, but WFH is something you have to prove and earn. It's tough to do and focus. I actually keep software that times my own productivity through the day and measures it. I hired a consultant just to track MY numbers and I own the company! I just find that helps me. If my numbers are off, I have a paid consultant questioning me at the end of the month. I know, sounds weird, but it works for me.
[snip]
@MikePfirrman, (or anyone) are you familiar with the time tracker HubStaff? I had a one time gig with a company who used that. I only worked a few hours a day, so it was super easy for me to focus. But although I was working continuously, I got scores like Activity = 70%, when I thought it should have been in the 90s. Since I'd always been an A student, this really bothered me.
I was doing QC for a company in which the writers had English as a second language. I worked in their QC system and also spent some time documenting common grammatical and other errors in a Google doc. While my time in the Google doc may have been part of the problem, by the second part of the project I was no longer documenting and 100% in their system.
I haven't heard of that, I typically use WorkScape, though it has a lot of flaws as well.1 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Millennials "have never been through an economic downturn"? I beg to differ. Millennials currently make up adults ages 24-40, approximately. A good number of us were already out in the workforce when the 2007-2008 recession hit.
Agreed. I'm a millennial and graduated with my first college degree in 2005... so I was in the workforce during the 2008-2009 recession. I was laid off in Feb. 2009 and spent 9 months unemployed while the unemployment rate was very high and jobs were competitive.
I shouldn't have generalized (I don't like it when people do that about Baby Boomers). It's just been my experience that the younger Millenials are in a state of shock right now.
I've placed four unemployed ones so far and counting (and a GenXer). The ones who will suffer the most during this are the Baby Boomers, though, and it's not even close. I just had my health insurance go up by 20% because of Covid-19. Those over 50 will have a very hard time getting back to work. Whether or not companies admit this (and they certainly don't to me), age discrimination gets much worse in recessions. Because the price to insure them in smaller companies and larger salaries, generally.
I tell the younger folks, look, you'll be fine. I just wish I had something better to say to those over 50. They won't be fine for a while.7 -
Redordeadhead wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Millennials "have never been through an economic downturn"? I beg to differ. Millennials currently make up adults ages 24-40, approximately. A good number of us were already out in the workforce when the 2007-2008 recession hit.
Millennials are around 39 tops now. 12 years ago they were 27. Every single company wants someone with five years of experience or less in the worst of times. The market is still decent for cheaper employees, as it always is in harder times. No one in that age group had a harder time in the last recession finding a job. They were the ones displacing older employees in droves. But you're right, I'm more referring to the younger ones in that group that are finding themselves unemployed for the first time ever. It's not easy to go from a hot job market where everyone is fighting over you (if you have certain skills) to the opposite.
This is simply not true. You can't generalise that "every single company" wants anything or "no one" had a harder time finding a job. Where I work, for example, it's almost impossible to get a job without several years of experience.
That is my experience. I'm just sharing what I know. I have 13 job requisitions right now. 12 of those are someone that has "just a couple of years of experience". All "assistants" or "junior level". Now, I don't get paid a fee for entry level, so I'm not sure what the job market is for recent grads, but I've heard it's not that terrible. I'll change my wording to "every single company I deal with...". Even the "senior" position I'm filling isn't really all that senior level.
Now, if I get a call today to fill a C-Suite position, obviously this changes, but for now, every single position is someone that would likely be a millennial or a Gen Z (but more likely a millennial).1 -
My daughter is a millennial. A 2007 college graduate. Found a job 3 months after graduation in her field, community health. Been there ever since. She lived with us about 7 months after graduation. She’s single, lives alone. Her company has had them working from home for 3 years now. It’s been a lonely life for her during covid, especially during lockdown early on. A bunch of her coworkers get together virtually quite often after business hours, but human, physical contact is important too.
We hear about the stress families are going through, with being together all the time, but, it’s not easy for anyone.
Our governor (Minnesota) put new restrictions in effect before Thanksgiving, that are set to expire Friday. It seems to be working, as our numbers have been going down for the past 14 days. The governor will be announcing whether any, or which, restrictions, will be lifted or altered today.
Stay safe everyone.10 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »PSA for all those who are WFH and hoping to do it at least part time long term, for the love of all that is good, get yourself (whether employer pays or your do) a real desk (preferably height adjustable to allow standing), monitor, external keyboard and mouse. And learn how to adjust all of it for proper position.
As a long term office worker I've had numerous orthopedic injuries/surgeries the doctor can trace back to poor office ergonomics even though the company I work for has always bought high end Steelcase office furniture.
She looks all happy now but this position is beating the hell out of her body and setting her up for a bunch of problems.
Went to Costco with the wife (against my will!) on the weekend. At least we went very early on Sunday morning before it was a mad rush. They had a solid looking standing desk for a pretty reasonable price. One of those that adjusts so you can sit or stand. Our daughter is coming home on Friday for a few months (she's working from home). If I hadn't already bought her a desk for our guest room, I would have bought this one. It looked great.0 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »PSA for all those who are WFH and hoping to do it at least part time long term, for the love of all that is good, get yourself (whether employer pays or your do) a real desk (preferably height adjustable to allow standing), monitor, external keyboard and mouse. And learn how to adjust all of it for proper position.
As a long term office worker I've had numerous orthopedic injuries/surgeries the doctor can trace back to poor office ergonomics even though the company I work for has always bought high end Steelcase office furniture.
She looks all happy now but this position is beating the hell out of her body and setting her up for a bunch of problems.
When this all started we had no idea that we would be working from home as long as we have. So I set up at my dining room table and sat in a dining room chair. While the chair is comfortable for a meal, it is not comfortable for 8 hours a day. It also was not adjustable so my posture was all sorts of messed up.
I finally bought a desk (not a standing desk, I didn't have the money for one of those) and I took a chair from work the last time I was in the office to clean out my stuff there. So now my set up is a lot better and not nearly as bad for my back.
It will be impossible for us to go back to the office 100%. Due to agency restructuring, we lost a floor. We used to have 3 floors and now have 2. So there is no way to have everyone come back and have space for them. My section alone has almost as many people in it as the whole division now has desks.5 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »PSA for all those who are WFH and hoping to do it at least part time long term, for the love of all that is good, get yourself (whether employer pays or your do) a real desk (preferably height adjustable to allow standing), monitor, external keyboard and mouse. And learn how to adjust all of it for proper position.
As a long term office worker I've had numerous orthopedic injuries/surgeries the doctor can trace back to poor office ergonomics even though the company I work for has always bought high end Steelcase office furniture.
She looks all happy now but this position is beating the hell out of her body and setting her up for a bunch of problems.
Amen! I used to work at a small liberal arts college that forced us to learn about ergonomics whether we wanted to or not, and have been conscious of that ever since.
I had lower back pain for decades that finally went away after I started using a high end office chair, which my employer let me take with me when I moved in 2011. At that time, I had no problem finding an ergonomic yet inexpensive computer desk on Craig's List, but sure would not be wanting to look for one there this year.
My OH will sometimes let our cat trap him in weird positions as he doesn't like to move World's Most Spoiled Cat off his lap. The other day, being in an odd position due to this caused a tension headache that plagued him for oh, a painful 8 hours or so.2 -
We're expecting up to 16" of snow overnight which usually means a run on the stores, but I guess thanks to COVID people and stores are already sufficiently stocked up. I was really surprised to see milk and bread in plentiful supply last night.10
-
Theoldguy1 wrote: »PSA for all those who are WFH and hoping to do it at least part time long term, for the love of all that is good, get yourself (whether employer pays or your do) a real desk (preferably height adjustable to allow standing), monitor, external keyboard and mouse. And learn how to adjust all of it for proper position.
As a long term office worker I've had numerous orthopedic injuries/surgeries the doctor can trace back to poor office ergonomics even though the company I work for has always bought high end Steelcase office furniture.
She looks all happy now but this position is beating the hell out of her body and setting her up for a bunch of problems.
Hope the disagree on this post was an accidental scroll-by, because the post itself is so true. I worked in IT. Our department had multiple people developing cumulative-stress pain & injuries from office work, until we trained a smart staff member in ergonomic office set-up, and empowered her to order what people needed and help put it in place. Pretty soon, we stopped seeing the wrist braces, new workers' comp claims, and other signs of employee injury/distress. Big payoff for everyone.9 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-britain-variant-idUSKBN28P158
Here is a source that I trust a bit more. Can anyone from UK tell if this is getting any air time this morning?
@GaleHawkins
Yes it's got some coverage including the Health Secretary briefing Parliament.
" I must stress this point: there is currently nothing to suggest that this variant is more likely to cause serious disease, and the latest clinical advice is that it is highly unlikely that the mutation would fail to respond to a vaccine. "
From - https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2020-12-14/debates/1E935A24-A8B4-4862-B8B5-C471D5CB40F1/Covid-19Update
A virologist interviewed by the BBC wasn't that concerned by what is expected behaviour by a virus like this.
He didn't envisage that it would affect the efficacy of the vaccine currently being rolled out here.
His worst-case scenario was that mutations may require the vaccine(s) to be tweaked but he likened that process to changing a word in an email rather than going back to square one.
It's not the first mutation/new variant - a Swiss clinic found one earlier in the year.7 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »PSA for all those who are WFH and hoping to do it at least part time long term, for the love of all that is good, get yourself (whether employer pays or your do) a real desk (preferably height adjustable to allow standing), monitor, external keyboard and mouse. And learn how to adjust all of it for proper position.
As a long term office worker I've had numerous orthopedic injuries/surgeries the doctor can trace back to poor office ergonomics even though the company I work for has always bought high end Steelcase office furniture.
She looks all happy now but this position is beating the hell out of her body and setting her up for a bunch of problems.
Hope the disagree on this post was an accidental scroll-by, because the post itself is so true. I worked in IT. Our department had multiple people developing cumulative-stress pain & injuries from office work, until we trained a smart staff member in ergonomic office set-up, and empowered her to order what people needed and help put it in place. Pretty soon, we stopped seeing the wrist braces, new workers' comp claims, and other signs of employee injury/distress. Big payoff for everyone.
As you know Ann, I do a ton of indoor rowing. I've had disk issues for nearly two years now. I'm battling through them, but how it started was a terrible desk chair. When I moved last year and put it back together, I noticed then that the cushion of it on the bottom was uneven. I had never had a problem with the thoracic area of my spine before. At first I thought rowing was to blame, but after noticing how I was askew at my desk, the chair had a lot more to do with my disc. It's mostly better now, but I will never buy the cheapest chair again. An exercise ball is a great alternative to a cheap desk chair, if someone can't afford a decent ergonomic chair.
I think my present one, which is great, was like $150. That's about as cheap as you can find a decent one.4 -
Speaking of millennials out of work:
Oregon Nurse Loses Job, Agrees to Stop Practicing After TikTok Mocking COVID Restrictions
2 -
^ Sounds like she doesn't love her kids enough to protect them, doesn't care about her patients and has zero common sense.13
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