Coronavirus prep
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I read an article from Reuters today that said India was currently averaging almost one COVID death every four minutes. 💔
This is heartbreaking. I know that they live in very tight and close conditions in some areas of the country, and that is what COVID likes. Easy and total spread.
Drone images of mass cremations as India battles Covid-19
With a rising death toll in a second wave of the coronavirus pandemic, authorities in India have been forced to hold mass cremations at makeshift sites. The country has seen more than 16 million confirmed cases since the pandemic began.
Source: CNN
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/04/23/covid-cremations-india-jba-lon-orig.cnn
Area wise, the size of the US is much bigger than India. Population of India is almost one billion more than the US. Even though India’s cases are spiking now, the US has had almost twice as many cases, and almost twice as many deaths, as India.4 -
@missysippy930
I understand that infections and deaths in a pandemic are always reported in relation to areas. I am referring to the human aspect of the situation, which is something that sometimes we fail to recognize and feel for, and not to statistics. I think that we are getting totally numb to human suffering and despair. For some people it may work, but not for me.
To my recollection, we didn't see in the continental USA, cremations "at makeshift sites" that can be seen from the air. The same type of images were reported from Brazil.
When hospitals, morgues, and crematories were overburden at the height of the pandemic in USA, the states or counties provided refrigerator trucks to keep the deceased until a proper burial could be arranged. I can’t imagen not being able to see and be with a dying loved one in a hospital, and then see their bodies being cremated in open fields. Last night in the news it was reported that sometimes the cremations took place in back yards as well. Very sad, and not over yet.
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@missysippy930
I understand that infections and deaths in a pandemic are always reported in relation to areas. I am referring to the human aspect of the situation, which is something that sometimes we fail to recognize and feel for, and not to statistics. I think that we are getting totally numb to human suffering and despair. For some people it may work, but not for me.
To my recollection, we didn't see in the continental USA, cremations "at makeshift sites" that can be seen from the air. The same type of images were reported from Brazil.
When hospitals, morgues, and crematories were overburden at the height of the pandemic in USA, the states or counties provided refrigerator trucks to keep the deceased until a proper burial could be arranged. I can’t imagen not being able to see and be with a dying loved one in a hospital, and then see their bodies being cremated in open fields. Last night in the news it was reported that sometimes the cremations took place in back yards as well. Very sad, and not over yet.
A couple of years ago, I saw a documentary that covered funerary practices in various parts of the world. (Pre-COVID.) Outdoor, open-air cremations are standard practice in India. The cremation sites I saw in that link look similar to the ones I saw in the documentary. You could see those from the air as well. In the highly populated areas especially, the cremation sites are large and they are burning bodies 24/7. There is a caste of people who basically are born into the trade, and it's a dirty, unhealthy job. And the types of fuels used depend on how much the family can pay - some burn better than others, and do a quicker, cleaner job, etc. Poor people just get burned in a pile together. Seeing a loved one cremated on a pyre of wood outdoors would not be especially traumatic in India. That's a normal cultural practice. Don't let it upset you.
What IS traumatic is that there are so many dying so quickly, there are more young people dying than normal (probably the more aggressive variants) and people are suffering miserably because there is no oxygen to keep them comfortable and support the lungs.
ETA: Found this interesting little tidbit regarding the funerals. DO NOT READ if you are sensitive. I personally find this kind of thing fascinating.
After cremation, ashes and bones are scattered in the sacred Ganges River. (George Harrison and Jerry Garcia's remains went in there, too.) They were having trouble with disease spreading back in the day when poor people (who couldn't afford cremation) just had their bodies tossed right in the river. So..."Today only bones and ashes are supposed to be scattered in the river. Even so the cremation process, especially among those who can not afford the large amount of wood needed to incinerate the entire body, leaves behind a lot of half burned body parts. To get rid of the body parts special snapping turtles are bred and released in the river that are taught to consume dead human flesh but not bother swimmers and bathers. These turtles consume about a pound of flesh a day and can reach a size of 70 pounds."8 -
missysippy930 wrote: »I read an article from Reuters today that said India was currently averaging almost one COVID death every four minutes. 💔
This is heartbreaking. I know that they live in very tight and close conditions in some areas of the country, and that is what COVID likes. Easy and total spread.
Drone images of mass cremations as India battles Covid-19
With a rising death toll in a second wave of the coronavirus pandemic, authorities in India have been forced to hold mass cremations at makeshift sites. The country has seen more than 16 million confirmed cases since the pandemic began.
Source: CNN
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/04/23/covid-cremations-india-jba-lon-orig.cnn
Area wise, the size of the US is much bigger than India. Population of India is almost one billion more than the US. Even though India’s cases are spiking now, the US has had almost twice as many cases, and almost twice as many deaths, as India.
The US had one day, back in December, where we reported a little over 400,000 new cases. The US had lots of other bad days where cases spiked into the 200,000s from December-February. This wave in India seems even more devastating than what we faced here. Over 300,000 daily. NYT said that represents a fraction of the cases. In addition to the shortage of supplies and beds, there's (apparently) an enormous amount of stigma attached to COVID there and people may not be reporting deaths or illnesses out of shame.
The US was strained to the brink during the last wave (some places more than others), but it seems India has gone over the edge with no sign of coming back.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/world/asia/india-coronavirus-deaths.html6 -
missysippy930 wrote: »I read an article from Reuters today that said India was currently averaging almost one COVID death every four minutes. 💔
This is heartbreaking. I know that they live in very tight and close conditions in some areas of the country, and that is what COVID likes. Easy and total spread.
Drone images of mass cremations as India battles Covid-19
With a rising death toll in a second wave of the coronavirus pandemic, authorities in India have been forced to hold mass cremations at makeshift sites. The country has seen more than 16 million confirmed cases since the pandemic began.
Source: CNN
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/04/23/covid-cremations-india-jba-lon-orig.cnn
Area wise, the size of the US is much bigger than India. Population of India is almost one billion more than the US. Even though India’s cases are spiking now, the US has had almost twice as many cases, and almost twice as many deaths, as India.
The US had one day, back in December, where we reported a little over 400,000 new cases. The US had lots of other bad days where cases spiked into the 200,000s from December-February. This wave in India seems even more devastating than what we faced here. Over 300,000 daily. NYT said that represents a fraction of the cases. In addition to the shortage of supplies and beds, there's (apparently) an enormous amount of stigma attached to COVID there and people may not be reporting deaths or illnesses out of shame.
The US was strained to the brink during the last wave (some places more than others), but it seems India has gone over the edge with no sign of coming back.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/world/asia/india-coronavirus-deaths.html
I have no opinion on US vs IndIa cases, but the worst period for US cases was one when testing was inadequate, A much better comparison between countries is deaths. US deaths in spring 2020 were terrible.5 -
My sister watches all the local news. I don't. She said Covid cases have increased 20% in our area. WTH? Mostly in younger people and children.4
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I have no opinion on US vs IndIa cases, but the worst period for US cases was one when testing was inadequate, A much better comparison between countries is deaths. US deaths in spring 2020 were terrible.
A lot of the early deaths were elderly people, especially those in nursing homes who were very vulnerable due to coexisting disease and/or age. In some places 2/3 of the deaths were from nursing homes in those early months. I had no idea there were so many people in PA who were over 100 until I looked at the list of those of that age who had died of/with Covid. That isn't the case now, especially in places like India and Brazil.1 -
My sister has a co-worker who has already booked a Disney vacation for right after their vaccination. I'm only one week post shot 2 and I'm fighting myself to stay safe until the two weeks are over. My aquarium has cycled and I want to go fish shopping.
This is not intended to downplay how serious the situation is in much of the world.6 -
@missysippy930
I understand that infections and deaths in a pandemic are always reported in relation to areas. I am referring to the human aspect of the situation, which is something that sometimes we fail to recognize and feel for, and not to statistics. I think that we are getting totally numb to human suffering and despair. For some people it may work, but not for me.
To my recollection, we didn't see in the continental USA, cremations "at makeshift sites" that can be seen from the air. The same type of images were reported from Brazil.
When hospitals, morgues, and crematories were overburden at the height of the pandemic in USA, the states or counties provided refrigerator trucks to keep the deceased until a proper burial could be arranged. I can’t imagen not being able to see and be with a dying loved one in a hospital, and then see their bodies being cremated in open fields. Last night in the news it was reported that sometimes the cremations took place in back yards as well. Very sad, and not over yet.
All I meant to point out is that the US, has had more cases and deaths from covid, in a much bigger, area wise, country, with a much smaller total population. I’m not saying one is better or worse than the other. IMHO, it’s because of poor, ineffective leadership in the US in 2020. With better leadership decisions, many US deaths may have been avoided.15 -
missysippy930 wrote: »@missysippy930
I understand that infections and deaths in a pandemic are always reported in relation to areas. I am referring to the human aspect of the situation, which is something that sometimes we fail to recognize and feel for, and not to statistics. I think that we are getting totally numb to human suffering and despair. For some people it may work, but not for me.
To my recollection, we didn't see in the continental USA, cremations "at makeshift sites" that can be seen from the air. The same type of images were reported from Brazil.
When hospitals, morgues, and crematories were overburden at the height of the pandemic in USA, the states or counties provided refrigerator trucks to keep the deceased until a proper burial could be arranged. I can’t imagen not being able to see and be with a dying loved one in a hospital, and then see their bodies being cremated in open fields. Last night in the news it was reported that sometimes the cremations took place in back yards as well. Very sad, and not over yet.
All I meant to point out is that the US, has had more cases and deaths from covid, in a much bigger, area wise, country, with a much smaller total population. I’m not saying one is better or worse than the other. IMHO, it’s because of poor, ineffective leadership in the US in 2020. With better leadership decisions, many US deaths may have been avoided.
When comparing countries, best to look at PPM comparisons
The US has been in the middle, better than some yet worse than others.
Don't turn everything into a political football
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missysippy930 wrote: »@missysippy930
I understand that infections and deaths in a pandemic are always reported in relation to areas. I am referring to the human aspect of the situation, which is something that sometimes we fail to recognize and feel for, and not to statistics. I think that we are getting totally numb to human suffering and despair. For some people it may work, but not for me.
To my recollection, we didn't see in the continental USA, cremations "at makeshift sites" that can be seen from the air. The same type of images were reported from Brazil.
When hospitals, morgues, and crematories were overburden at the height of the pandemic in USA, the states or counties provided refrigerator trucks to keep the deceased until a proper burial could be arranged. I can’t imagen not being able to see and be with a dying loved one in a hospital, and then see their bodies being cremated in open fields. Last night in the news it was reported that sometimes the cremations took place in back yards as well. Very sad, and not over yet.
All I meant to point out is that the US, has had more cases and deaths from covid, in a much bigger, area wise, country, with a much smaller total population. I’m not saying one is better or worse than the other. IMHO, it’s because of poor, ineffective leadership in the US in 2020. With better leadership decisions, many US deaths may have been avoided.
When comparing countries, best to look at PPM comparisons
The US has been in the middle, better than some yet worse than others.
Don't turn everything into a political football
I didn’t make it political. That was someone who didn’t, or wouldn’t, listen to experts, or advisors, who didn’t agree with him.
Fact is, comparing US vs India, 572,000 vs 192,000 deaths. Population of India is over one billion more than the population of the US. And, a lot of experts say a lot of the US deaths could have been prevented. The policies in many countries definitely had a better handle on this than the US.8 -
India's numbers are probably undercounted, though -- I found plenty of articles even from 2020 saying that. And it's clear that many places that were for whatever reason hit less hard early on got hit harder later, and the current situation in India is terrible.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/04/22/989768074/how-india-went-from-a-ray-of-hope-to-a-world-record-for-most-covid-cases-in-a-da
Older pieces include: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54176375 and https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-535103076 -
India's numbers are probably undercounted, though -- I found plenty of articles even from 2020 saying that. And it's clear that many places that were for whatever reason hit less hard early on got hit harder later, and the current situation in India is terrible.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/04/22/989768074/how-india-went-from-a-ray-of-hope-to-a-world-record-for-most-covid-cases-in-a-da
Older pieces include: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54176375 and https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53510307
I agree it’s devastating and extremely sad. People are dying because of oxygen shortages.
Just yesterday, my daughter said her boss thinks she has covid. My daughter told her to get tested. She said no, it’s probably just a cold🤷🏻♀️How many people think this way? Her boss won’t get the vaccine either.5 -
My sister watches all the local news. I don't. She said Covid cases have increased 20% in our area. WTH? Mostly in younger people and children.
How big is this area you’re talking about? If it’s a relatively small area that didn’t surge before the increase, a single mass exposure at a school could be enough to make cases jump by 20%, especially if it’s followed by infections that spread to families.missysippy930 wrote: »missysippy930 wrote: »@missysippy930
I understand that infections and deaths in a pandemic are always reported in relation to areas. I am referring to the human aspect of the situation, which is something that sometimes we fail to recognize and feel for, and not to statistics. I think that we are getting totally numb to human suffering and despair. For some people it may work, but not for me.
To my recollection, we didn't see in the continental USA, cremations "at makeshift sites" that can be seen from the air. The same type of images were reported from Brazil.
When hospitals, morgues, and crematories were overburden at the height of the pandemic in USA, the states or counties provided refrigerator trucks to keep the deceased until a proper burial could be arranged. I can’t imagen not being able to see and be with a dying loved one in a hospital, and then see their bodies being cremated in open fields. Last night in the news it was reported that sometimes the cremations took place in back yards as well. Very sad, and not over yet.
All I meant to point out is that the US, has had more cases and deaths from covid, in a much bigger, area wise, country, with a much smaller total population. I’m not saying one is better or worse than the other. IMHO, it’s because of poor, ineffective leadership in the US in 2020. With better leadership decisions, many US deaths may have been avoided.
When comparing countries, best to look at PPM comparisons
The US has been in the middle, better than some yet worse than others.
Don't turn everything into a political football
I didn’t make it political. That was someone who didn’t, or wouldn’t, listen to experts, or advisors, who didn’t agree with him.
Fact is, comparing US vs India, 572,000 vs 192,000 deaths. Population of India is over one billion more than the population of the US. And, a lot of experts say a lot of the US deaths could have been prevented. The policies in many countries definitely had a better handle on this than the US.
To be fair, *most* countries would have had less deaths, less hospital stays and less economic side effects with better policies, better resources, better-in-crisis societal structures, better healthcare systems and more obedient populations/cultures. Some leaders are wiser than others, some legislations and executive branches have better abilities to cooperate across party lines, some countries have more resources or the ability to get more quickly, and in some cultures people are used to doing what the government tells them to do, either because they have a historic understanding of pulling together in a crisis, government only asking specific things when it’s really needed, or because there’s a dictatorship that forces people to do so.
To compare US and Finland specifically (since I’ve lived in both): president is ceremonial, political power is shared between parliament and government, which is lead by prime minister (this is simplifying things to make the point). There are 8 different parties in parliament, 5 of which currently form the government. Everyone is used to working together to get anything done, because even in normal conditions nobody can get their way without other parties. This means people are used to government decisions that are just that, without making it a political circus of the other party and their supporters being stupid, life-ruining or whatever. The society is largely what some might call ”nanny state”, but in pandemic conditions it allows basic living and social security when workplaces close and jobs are lost, and nobody is starving or at risk of becoming homeless if they follow the rules and stay home instead of risking their lives to earn money. Also less jobs are lost because companies are supported by the state. People here have followed pandemic policies because we’re largely a calm, steady people, following pandemic rules doesn’t lead to personal demise, and we can generally trust the government to make sensible decisions that serve the purpose they’re meant to. Getting healthcare doesn’t cause bankruptcy, even without insurance.
With all this said, we didn’t survive the pandemic without all kinds of massive issues: economic implications are still huge, businesses especially in service industries are suffering, there’s a huge backlog of non-urgent medical care and procedures waiting because resources were reallocated to covid care, and so on. Could we have done better if we had wiser leadership and better resources? Absolutely. Did we still do better than many countries? Absolutely. There’s still a big difference in these curves.
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I posted about the situation in India because I felt terrible. Just like NY and Italy last spring. And many countries/states between then and now. Things were awful in Southern California (where I live) December-February. But I never doubted we'd see our way out of it, as we could find the resources even when we were stretched so very thin. I worry for India as I don't see them having the resources to get things under control. And that includes vaccine. And I see a variant-driven surge as potentially moving beyond those borders. So, part of it is selfish, I guess. And empathetic. We could surge again, too. Several states are just coming down from a spring surge. And when it comes to making choices to keep this at bay and stem the spread, like wearing a mask, getting tested if symptomatic, hand-washing, physical distancing, getting vaccinated (the CDC estimates about 8% of the vaccinated population stopped after one shot), we seem to be our own worst enemy. And that's in the world at large.11
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missysippy930 wrote: »India's numbers are probably undercounted, though -- I found plenty of articles even from 2020 saying that. And it's clear that many places that were for whatever reason hit less hard early on got hit harder later, and the current situation in India is terrible.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/04/22/989768074/how-india-went-from-a-ray-of-hope-to-a-world-record-for-most-covid-cases-in-a-da
Older pieces include: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54176375 and https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53510307
I agree it’s devastating and extremely sad. People are dying because of oxygen shortages.
Just yesterday, my daughter said her boss thinks she has covid. My daughter told her to get tested. She said no, it’s probably just a cold🤷🏻♀️How many people think this way? Her boss won’t get the vaccine either.
A couple of months ago, my husband's boss had "really bad allergies or something" for over a week, kept getting worse and worse. She didn't want to get tested because she didn't want to be forced to quarantine. She ended up in the hospital with COVID (she's OK now but she was sick enough to stay in the hospital for a week.) Meanwhile, she spread it around work, the health department found out and came in and sent a bunch of people home to quarantine (including my husband who ended up negative.) Three other people at work ended up coming down with COVID shortly after. There are a handful of people at his work who say, "Yeah, we've all already been exposed. We don't need the vaccine now." WTH, people. So yeah, plenty of people "think this way."14 -
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It’s just heartbreaking to me. From the WaPo: “Patients are on Their Own as India Reels.”
https://apple.news/AQ_jqpFW7RxyzJawNKZBfyA
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missysippy930 wrote: »missysippy930 wrote: »@missysippy930
I understand that infections and deaths in a pandemic are always reported in relation to areas. I am referring to the human aspect of the situation, which is something that sometimes we fail to recognize and feel for, and not to statistics. I think that we are getting totally numb to human suffering and despair. For some people it may work, but not for me.
To my recollection, we didn't see in the continental USA, cremations "at makeshift sites" that can be seen from the air. The same type of images were reported from Brazil.
When hospitals, morgues, and crematories were overburden at the height of the pandemic in USA, the states or counties provided refrigerator trucks to keep the deceased until a proper burial could be arranged. I can’t imagen not being able to see and be with a dying loved one in a hospital, and then see their bodies being cremated in open fields. Last night in the news it was reported that sometimes the cremations took place in back yards as well. Very sad, and not over yet.
All I meant to point out is that the US, has had more cases and deaths from covid, in a much bigger, area wise, country, with a much smaller total population. I’m not saying one is better or worse than the other. IMHO, it’s because of poor, ineffective leadership in the US in 2020. With better leadership decisions, many US deaths may have been avoided.
When comparing countries, best to look at PPM comparisons
The US has been in the middle, better than some yet worse than others.
Don't turn everything into a political football
I didn’t make it political. That was someone who didn’t, or wouldn’t, listen to experts, or advisors, who didn’t agree with him.
Fact is, comparing US vs India, 572,000 vs 192,000 deaths. Population of India is over one billion more than the population of the US. And, a lot of experts say a lot of the US deaths could have been prevented. The policies in many countries definitely had a better handle on this than the US.
Yes, you are the one on this thread making it 'POLITICAL'
I highly recommend taking a stat class, it will help you analyze data. Instead of 'cherry picking' a comparison country, you should do like I did - I compared the whole EU with the US data, and it was normalized by population.
If you want to discuss what policy decisions led to deaths, start a thread to drill down into the topic. It's far more complex than your insinuations.8 -
@missysippy930
I understand that infections and deaths in a pandemic are always reported in relation to areas. I am referring to the human aspect of the situation, which is something that sometimes we fail to recognize and feel for, and not to statistics. I think that we are getting totally numb to human suffering and despair. For some people it may work, but not for me.
To my recollection, we didn't see in the continental USA, cremations "at makeshift sites" that can be seen from the air. The same type of images were reported from Brazil.
When hospitals, morgues, and crematories were overburden at the height of the pandemic in USA, the states or counties provided refrigerator trucks to keep the deceased until a proper burial could be arranged. I can’t imagen not being able to see and be with a dying loved one in a hospital, and then see their bodies being cremated in open fields. Last night in the news it was reported that sometimes the cremations took place in back yards as well. Very sad, and not over yet.
A couple of years ago, I saw a documentary that covered funerary practices in various parts of the world. (Pre-COVID.) Outdoor, open-air cremations are standard practice in India. The cremation sites I saw in that link look similar to the ones I saw in the documentary. You could see those from the air as well. In the highly populated areas especially, the cremation sites are large and they are burning bodies 24/7. There is a caste of people who basically are born into the trade, and it's a dirty, unhealthy job. And the types of fuels used depend on how much the family can pay - some burn better than others, and do a quicker, cleaner job, etc. Poor people just get burned in a pile together. Seeing a loved one cremated on a pyre of wood outdoors would not be especially traumatic in India. That's a normal cultural practice. Don't let it upset you.
What IS traumatic is that there are so many dying so quickly, there are more young people dying than normal (probably the more aggressive variants) and people are suffering miserably because there is no oxygen to keep them comfortable and support the lungs.
ETA: Found this interesting little tidbit regarding the funerals. DO NOT READ if you are sensitive. I personally find this kind of thing fascinating.
After cremation, ashes and bones are scattered in the sacred Ganges River. (George Harrison and Jerry Garcia's remains went in there, too.) They were having trouble with disease spreading back in the day when poor people (who couldn't afford cremation) just had their bodies tossed right in the river. So..."Today only bones and ashes are supposed to be scattered in the river. Even so the cremation process, especially among those who can not afford the large amount of wood needed to incinerate the entire body, leaves behind a lot of half burned body parts. To get rid of the body parts special snapping turtles are bred and released in the river that are taught to consume dead human flesh but not bother swimmers and bathers. These turtles consume about a pound of flesh a day and can reach a size of 70 pounds."
Was going to say the same... open-air cremations are not a Covid thing because of large numbers of deaths. It's just what some Indians do.
BTW, remember the mass graves in NYC for unclaimed bodies? We saw the aerial photos of that... and that isn't common in the U.S., but they couldn't hold bodies for long and had to make room. Many cities and states got refrigerated truck trailers after that to be ready for a higher body inventory, but this was NYC during the early spike that caught them unprepared.
ETA: It is common for the city/state to bury unclaimed bodies, but not in such numbers and usually the bodies are held longer.3
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