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Coronavirus prep
Replies
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The CDC isn't just declaring the science, it is translating the science into public policy.
Most of the pros I listen to say that the risk to a vaccinated person, as things currently stand, is quite small. They are however concerned that if all the vaccinated stop wearing masks, the unvaccinated will too. That means we'll never get to herd immunity and COVID-19 will remain this simmering risk that could mutate into something that breaks through vaccine protection at some point. So they are concerned the CDC jumped the gun. They support the science but aren't sure about the public policy decision.
Community protection comes from herd immunity. And even for a vaccinated person, vaccines aren't 100%, it's herd immunity that covers your butt for that remaining small percentage of risk. IMHO public policy should be crafted to support herd immunity, and I'm not sure the CDC decision did that. Obviously, lots of people disagree with that, and I'm not in charge of anything lol. Just an armchair quarterback hoping we can put this behind us as quickly as possible.
Most stores here switched to "masks recommended" or "we would appreciate all unvaccinated people to wear masks" or something similar. Virginia dropped all occupancy restrictions last week, and masks are only required on public transportation I think. I'd say still well over half the folks at the grocery store are still wearing masks, and we have a halfway decent vaxx rate around here too.9 -
https://youtu.be/mzOf6Cj3T-8
This UK healthcare professional has helped me better Covid-19 immunity questions.2 -
In the UK we are seeing early signs of a third wave due to rapid spreading of the India variant, mostly amongst younger people who are not yet vaccinated/ only had first vaccine.
We have come out of winter/spring lockdown in stages and we were doing quite well till this new variant took hold.
Currently most things are open but still with distancing and mask requirements in place. The last stage of unlocking is supposed to be June 21st. I truly hope this is delayed as our medical advisors are calling for.
We are currently giving second vaccines to the over 50s, over 40s are waiting for their second vaccine, and over 30s are currently getting their first. We know the one vaccine alone only gives around 30% protection to the India variant whereas both doses protects as fully as to the other strains.
If we can stay at our current level of restrictions until all adults have had two doses I believe this will save the lives of many younger people and less people with the long term consequences of infection.
We already have so much more freedom than we did a couple of months ago, surely keeping the current rules in place for an extra couple of months while the vaccine programme catches up is better than letting it run rampant and going back to square one with another full lockdown.14 -
Thank you for the Dr John Campbell talk.
Here in the UK, England, we have been hearing our cases of the India variation are increasing and are no longer confined to the earlier areas of infections. There has been much talk of the vaccines being virus specific but here we hear the immune response has three methods of interference, the spikes, the surface and the internals. It gives me hope that the already noted rise in cases are generally among the unvaccinated who are more likely to go on to need hospital support. Having listened through I feel more confident in the long term.
I do have concerns with the approach of 21st of June when all restrictions here were initially planned to be lifted, all things being equal, no variant etc. We have outcry's that we should open up anyway regardless of the prevalence of this more transmissible variant. Often cited in opposition, is the opening up of Israel. I've heard they now have 90% of their population vaccinated where are we are still working through our age levels and are a couple of months away from being 75% vaccinated over all. I hope we can hold off, keeping some restrictions through to the end of the summer, doing our best for ourselves and the NHS.
Along side taking care of ourselves, seeing as, we are all as safe as the last unvaccinated person anywhere in the world, I hope international efforts continue to vaccinate everyone everywhere; particularly those in India with this highly transmissible variant running wild.
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https://www.jpost.com/health-science/10-serious-covid-patients-given-israeli-drug-leave-hospital-in-one-day-669564
@Fuzzipeg it sounds like the Indian variety is more serious. I have appreciated Dr. Campbell's input over a year now. He is a voice of reason in the mist of this pandemic. Looks like Israel plans to fight Covid-19 every way possible.0 -
It seems it is more easy to come down with. Those who are already vaccinated and fall for this variant are in a good position they tend not to need hospital care. Its those who have not been vaccinated who are still at greater risks and likely to need hospitalisation. I realise there are people who are advised for various reasons not to have the vaccine, I feel for them. I don't have the flu vaccine because of the preservatives they contain. I think the vaccine producers might have been more "mindful" of many potential issues and have done their best, for the most part to avoid known reactions. I worry for those who say, "they can't be asked". as I have said previously, remembering those last year who from their hospital beds, told others they wished they had been more careful, knowing what you are loosing prematurely seems to change ones perspective.
I think the last number of deaths reported nationally was 6 people, six people too many. The number is a far cry from the numbers registered over many weeks of the last year. The numbers of cases locally came down to about 30 per 100,000 population in the last few weeks there have been one or few more in a week. So I'm not saying we are in a really, really bad way. Its that the earlier number of cases which lead to the lockdowns started with very low numbers.
People living in multigenerational homes are more at risk. Being permitted to travel will take ones risks higher. I have a grandson living in Darwen, Lancashire, like other towns round, many of the population live in extreme deprivation, jobs of any kind are few. Contrary to many peoples thoughts, we still have a deep North/South Divide. It goes deeper than this because its more as if we have some areas of prosperity but more of the country is down on its heals. Setting aside the effects of Covid Lockdowns we have an underling disproportionate pay distribution. Play with other peoples invested money= higher pay. Look after those in ill health, even the skilled workforce is valued much less. Then I was hearing yesterday, how those who have manned essential food stores over the last months particularly have been abused in unthinkable ways particularly when protecting the public. These folks to are on minimum wages while company profits rise.
I'm sure similar stories are to be found everywhere.
I've just thought to add, there are many for whom the financial protection schemes the government have shouted about, just have not received any support in any way shapes and form. If they are fortunate they have stronger families to support them. There are charities which supply standardised boxes of food and things to those in deepest need, in theory at least.7 -
https://youtu.be/LYCr0qS7ReY
Sounds like some in Australia are stressed as the end of the pandemic is not in sight. Seems like USA lockdowns are over because of fear of the outcome. Mask usage by store employees and shoppers is approaching Zero locally but high temp and humidity is a factor as well.
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When "vaccine" side effects aren't
On May 6, a Thursday, I had the Shingrix shingles vaccine. 24 hours later I was sick. I looked up the possible side effects on the CDC page and I had all of them. It said symptoms could last for 2-3 days. I did start feeling better Monday, but by Thursday I was sick again - fatigue, headache, chills, sweats, loss of appetite. All I wanted to do was curl up in a ball in a dark room.
I found nothing, even anecdotally, about shingles vaccine symptoms lasting this long so on the 17th I wrote to my doctor explaining what was going on and asking to be tested for Lyme disease, as I've been bitten by several ticks this spring and the symptoms are similar. Then I found out that many of my mother's neighbors have had Babesiosis, another tick born disease.
On the 18th I went to Urgent Care. To make a long story short, I got the full tick panel and tested positive for Anaplasmosis, a third tick born disease. While I didn't get the results back for almost a week, they started me on the antibiotic doxycycline the night I went to Urgent Care, and I started feeling better within a few days. I was mostly convinced I had Babesiosis, which is treated with anti-malarial drugs, and am so glad I didn't refuse the antibiotic because of that.
I'm really happy I looked past my initial "It's the vaccine" thinking so I could get proper diagnosis and treatment. I still have some lingering fatigue, but all the other symptoms are gone.33 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
Yes, my hearing has been tested many times over the years and it is fine.
I also think I have an auditory processing difficulty, but that came from my inability to filter out background noises and the way a situation like a crowded restaurant is almost tortuous for me. The neurology department at the VA was completely unable to help me with this.
This is how it is for me, except I have no trouble 80% of the time. but it's when it changes. When I go from a quiet room to a loud one, or when I go from loud to quiet, or someone starts talking to me close when I've been listening to a speaker across the room. I have trouble with the change, then I adjust and I'm fine.
The worst is getting a phone call I'm not expecting. I often have to ask people to repeat themselves at least once, sometimes twice - no lip-reading or context information. Scheduled calls are different, and calls that I plan and initiate are different.2 -
The CDC isn't just declaring the science, it is translating the science into public policy.
Most of the pros I listen to say that the risk to a vaccinated person, as things currently stand, is quite small. They are however concerned that if all the vaccinated stop wearing masks, the unvaccinated will too. That means we'll never get to herd immunity and COVID-19 will remain this simmering risk that could mutate into something that breaks through vaccine protection at some point. So they are concerned the CDC jumped the gun. They support the science but aren't sure about the public policy decision.
Community protection comes from herd immunity. And even for a vaccinated person, vaccines aren't 100%, it's herd immunity that covers your butt for that remaining small percentage of risk. IMHO public policy should be crafted to support herd immunity, and I'm not sure the CDC decision did that. Obviously, lots of people disagree with that, and I'm not in charge of anything lol. Just an armchair quarterback hoping we can put this behind us as quickly as possible.
Most stores here switched to "masks recommended" or "we would appreciate all unvaccinated people to wear masks" or something similar. Virginia dropped all occupancy restrictions last week, and masks are only required on public transportation I think. I'd say still well over half the folks at the grocery store are still wearing masks, and we have a halfway decent vaxx rate around here too.
I think they are thinking that it helps encourage vaccination to show that there are benefits -- like no more masks -- to being vaccinated, vs it seeming like nothing changes. Of course those of us who consider the protection a benefit see that as odd, but for the more reluctant folks.
My office is asking people to show their proof of vaccination if you want to go maskless in public spaces.2 -
Glad you are feeling better, kshama!4
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MikePfirrman wrote: »Sorry I haven't been on lately. Just thought I'd share what happened to me today.
I go to a very busy chiropractic chain. It opens at 10 AM and you don't have appointments, so it's first come, first serve. I can have 10 in line within the first five minutes of opening, so I normally get there early.
I've been wearing my mask, even though I'm fully vaccinated. I got there today and I was fourth in line. One lady was first, she was off to the left. Then there was a couple in front of me. I'd guess in their 30's or early 40s.
I'm waiting, in line, for it to open up. As I'm standing there, looking at my phone, I can feel the guy in front of me looking at me, then I start to hear him chirping up to his girlfriend or wife. You can hear, "sheep", "Fauci", you know the typical things of people that are anti-mask. It doesn't bother that much, to be honest.
But then things changed. He starts speaking up and raising his voice at me, "hey you...". After three times, I turn around and it's obvious he's talking to me. So I say, "me?". "Yeah, you", he says. "You vaccinated?", he asks. I say, yeah, yeah I am. "Then why you wearing a mask, because Fauci told you to?".
You have to understand, I'm normally a calm person, but I grew up in the semi hood. I'm starting to get very ticked off at this point. So I said something to the extent of "it's my right to wear a mask". He continues on me. The other people in line start to talk to him to. They are not happy either. He continues on me until, unfortunately, I tell him, "same as your right to be a douch-b". Then he tries to say I was too close to his girlfriend in line. Which wasn't true, but at this point, it's clear he's just trying to pick a fight. I also said it's none of his flippin business why I wear a mask.
At this point, before things escalate, I tapped on the door and asked to be let in because I was being harrassed for wearing a mask.
I still let the other three go ahead of me when they opened. I know the desk people and the chiropractors and they were not happy either that I was harrassed. I remained calm for me.
My wife wasn't happy that I said anything. She's always worried some loose cannon will pull a gun on you. IDK, I was boiling mad for hours.
Despite having some appreciation for your wife's point of view, my OH liked your response
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@kshama2001 -- I wouldn't have even heard of Babesiosis unless I hadn't read a Wash Post article about it 3 days ago. I'm glad you're feeling better. That sounds scary. Being in AZ now, I don't miss ticks. They and mosquitos are here, but rare.3
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@Kshama2001 Sorry for what you have gone through. But also very glad it was caught for you. As you know we also live in Mass, most of the time. A number of years ago, my husband fell ill and went to ER. Did spinal tap and the whole works including a Lyme test. The next day, and hour before we received his negative results, he developed the tell tail bulls eye rash. So, if it were not for the rash, they would have not treated him. Our next door neighbor had undiagnosed lyme (had for years before Lyme was IDed for her). She is permanently damaged. Last year, she got COVID from one of her grandchildren that live with them because their mother (the daughter) died. The COVID reactivated the Lyme. Saw the husband the other day and I asked about her. He said she has been back on bed for months.
On another note, you asked about Mass and masks the other day. Just came home from local grocery store. I would say mask use was between 1/4 and 1/3 customers/staff at this store.3 -
I think they are thinking that it helps encourage vaccination to show that there are benefits -- like no more masks -- to being vaccinated, vs it seeming like nothing changes. Of course those of us who consider the protection a benefit see that as odd, but for the more reluctant folks.
My office is asking people to show their proof of vaccination if you want to go maskless in public spaces.
Yeah, my office is requiring that a copy of your vaccination card be submitted to HR to be considered fully vaccinated. It is required if you want to be able to be maskless at the office; anyone who is maskless in the office and is determined to not be fully vaccinated is subject to a week suspension without pay. Proof of vaccination is also required for personal or business travel without quarantine on return; though international travel regardless of vaccination status still requires quarantine.
We still have several people at the office who are in fact vaccinated fully but refuse to provide a copy of their card to HR. This makes little sense to me...as someone in a high level executive position with access to personnel files, there is way more sensitive information in them than a little card from the NMDOH showing the two dates of your vaccination...that's literally all it shows on the card. Very similar to when a doctors note is required for an extensive (more than 3 days) absence due to illness or a doctor's note clearing someone to return to work after a surgery or something.14 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
Yeah, my office is requiring that a copy of your vaccination card be submitted to HR to be considered fully vaccinated. It is required if you want to be able to be maskless at the office; anyone who is maskless in the office and is determined to not be fully vaccinated is subject to a week suspension without pay. Proof of vaccination is also required for personal or business travel without quarantine on return; though international travel regardless of vaccination status still requires quarantine.
We still have several people at the office who are in fact vaccinated fully but refuse to provide a copy of their card to HR. This makes little sense to me...as someone in a high level executive position with access to personnel files, there is way more sensitive information in them than a little card from the NMDOH showing the two dates of your vaccination...that's literally all it shows on the card. Very similar to when a doctors note is required for an extensive (more than 3 days) absence due to illness or a doctor's note clearing someone to return to work after a surgery or something.
Yep, it's just like HR requiring a doctor's note specifying why you need a long absence or some special allowance on site for a medical condition. That note detailing your med condition is kept on file, and probably has far more private info than your covid-19 vaccine card.
Our HR dept is in the corporate office, and their policy is to keep vaccine info at the local office level. So employees are to provide a copy of their card to the GM and he is keeping a list. He says we are 85% vaccinated, which means 6 employees have not provided it and will need to continue to mask. No policy has been announced as to what happens if they don't. I think our GM is hoping it won't be an issue. But two of those employees have told coworkers they are both anti vaxx and anti mask. It will be interesting to see how long the policy goes on and if they are willing to mask the whole time. I also know a couple of high risk coworkers who are vaxxed but will mask on site in an abundance of caution.
FYI we were told that while a company is within it's rights to ask about vaccine and have attendance/behavior policy based on it, we are not allowed to ask interviewees if they are vaccinated, as you are not allowed to discriminate in hiring based on that.5 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
Yeah, my office is requiring that a copy of your vaccination card be submitted to HR to be considered fully vaccinated. It is required if you want to be able to be maskless at the office; anyone who is maskless in the office and is determined to not be fully vaccinated is subject to a week suspension without pay. Proof of vaccination is also required for personal or business travel without quarantine on return; though international travel regardless of vaccination status still requires quarantine.
We still have several people at the office who are in fact vaccinated fully but refuse to provide a copy of their card to HR. This makes little sense to me...as someone in a high level executive position with access to personnel files, there is way more sensitive information in them than a little card from the NMDOH showing the two dates of your vaccination...that's literally all it shows on the card. Very similar to when a doctors note is required for an extensive (more than 3 days) absence due to illness or a doctor's note clearing someone to return to work after a surgery or something.
Just curious. How does the company know if someone sat on their deck and drank beer by themselves for their whole vacation or travelled to Lord knows where?0 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Just curious. How does the company know if someone sat on their deck and drank beer by themselves for their whole vacation or travelled to Lord knows where?
They don't really...but we're small...about 133 people in three separate offices and office gossip is plenty abundant and people also do dumb *kitten* like say they're taking a few days to chill at home and then post pictures on social media of their long weekend in Denver. Couple of those people don't work here anymore.
ETA: If you're going to do it and lie about it, don't plaster your *kitten* all over Insta and FB or send tweets about how awesome the game is...when there is no game in NM because we had some of the most strict restrictions in the US for most of this thing.14 -
Yep, it's just like HR requiring a doctor's note specifying why you need a long absence or some special allowance on site for a medical condition. That note detailing your med condition is kept on file, and probably has far more private info than your covid-19 vaccine card.
Our HR dept is in the corporate office, and their policy is to keep vaccine info at the local office level. So employees are to provide a copy of their card to the GM and he is keeping a list. He says we are 85% vaccinated, which means 6 employees have not provided it and will need to continue to mask. No policy has been announced as to what happens if they don't. I think our GM is hoping it won't be an issue. But two of those employees have told coworkers they are both anti vaxx and anti mask. It will be interesting to see how long the policy goes on and if they are willing to mask the whole time. I also know a couple of high risk coworkers who are vaxxed but will mask on site in an abundance of caution.
FYI we were told that while a company is within it's rights to ask about vaccine and have attendance/behavior policy based on it, we are not allowed to ask interviewees if they are vaccinated, as you are not allowed to discriminate in hiring based on that.
That's interesting. Is it a state thing? There was an interview on a statewide (Michigan) public radio program here recently, with an expert on that area of law. I admit I was only loosely paying attention (I don't have employees 😉), but I was under the impression that employers could make vaccination a condition of employment. I'm not sure whether that was something they could ask about in an interview, or something that would be part of the new-employee intake process and a hard disqualifier to actual hiring (which is how drug tests were, last I knew).4 -
That's interesting. Is it a state thing? There was an interview on a statewide (Michigan) public radio program here recently, with an expert on that area of law. I admit I was only loosely paying attention (I don't have employees 😉), but I was under the impression that employers could make vaccination a condition of employment. I'm not sure whether that was something they could ask about in an interview, or something that would be part of the new-employee intake process and a hard disqualifier to actual hiring (which is how drug tests were, last I knew).
It's possible it is a company policy. They have stations in several states, so maybe it's the requirement in the most stringent place or just being overly cautious about possible lawsuits!0 -
FYI we were told that while a company is within it's rights to ask about vaccine and have attendance/behavior policy based on it, we are not allowed to ask interviewees if they are vaccinated, as you are not allowed to discriminate in hiring based on that.
Thats interesting.
Here in Australia relevant occupations can require proof of relevant vaccinations already - way before and not to do with Covid - and this certainly applies to prospective employees in most health fields
One must have up to date flu vaccine and whooping cough vaccine and proof of vaccination (or serological immunity) for MMR, Varicella, Hep B.
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We have a big football game on here this weekend with almost 30,000 people attending. There is no mask requirement here right now since we've had zero community transmission so far but this is not a great idea. People will come from other towns or from other states and might bring Covid here.
Australia is dismally behind with the vaccination roll out and there is a break out in Victoria of the Indian variant right now. Since some from there bolted in caravans to other states to get away before lockdown who knows what will happen. Not happy about this one bit. Glad I've had at least one shot.11 -
It's possible it is a company policy. They have stations in several states, so maybe it's the requirement in the most stringent place or just being overly cautious about possible lawsuits!
I got curious about this. I think the program I was thinking of may've been US national, NPR's Marketplace, this story:
https://www.marketplace.org/2021/05/28/how-effective-are-employer-vaccine-mandates/
After going down a rabbit hole, I found this guidance document from US EEOC:
https://www.eeoc.gov/wysk/what-you-should-know-about-covid-19-and-ada-rehabilitation-act-and-other-eeo-laws
A key quote is:K.1. Under the ADA, Title VII, and other federal employment nondiscrimination laws, may an employer require all employees physically entering the workplace to be vaccinated for COVID-19? (5/28/21)
The federal EEO laws do not prevent an employer from requiring all employees physically entering the workplace to be vaccinated for COVID-19, subject to the reasonable accommodation provisions of Title VII and the ADA and other EEO considerations discussed below. These principles apply if an employee gets the vaccine in the community or from the employer.
(As far as I could see, none of the "considerations discussed below" changed the overall tenor. Fundamentally, they deal with things like people with religious objections to vaccinations, and people with a medical condition that prevents their being safely vaccinated. Both of of those classes require "reasonable accommodation", which will be a familiar term to anyone HR-ish, but if others care, it's explained a little bit in the document linked.) Not sure exactly how it fits into hiring, but it's pretty clear that an employer can require vaccination of employees, with limited exceptions.
I know, it seems nutty that I'd look this up. A big chunk of my career involved doing systems support for a large organization's payroll and HR systems, so I'm loosely familiar with a lot of HR stuff. That made me curious about how something like this fit into the picture. 🤷♀️ Plus I have a bad tendency to get curious about really any random glittery-seeming thing that wanders into my field of vision sometimes. 😆7 -
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Re: asking interviewees about vaccines and medical information - I’m not sure about covid vaccinations specifically, but at least here some medical staff is required to stay vaccinated so I think they can be asked since it’s relevant to their jobs. Every year or two there’s some anti-vaxxing nurse throwing a fit in the media because their employer requires certain vaccinations (like the flu shot) and they don’t want to. My personal opinion on that matter is that if you refuse to get vaccinated to stop killing your patients, you need to find another job since you knew fully well this is part of the job. This is not an absolute fact, but I think the vaccination thing isn’t even a thing throughout the medical field, only in positions where infectious diseases would be extra dangerous because patients are immunocompromised or you could cause a larger epidemic, so it’s not even like you would be banned from practicing your profession altogether.
In general medical information can only asked about when it’s relevant to the job, like firefighters can be required to get a physical and so on. If you want to do some drug testing, psychological analysis etc., you need to send the recruit to an external test provider and they will only give you a yes/no answer based on the test, no diagnosis or exact results. Many jobs here send people in for a doctor’s evaluation after hiring, to make sure there are no underlying issues that could prevent doing the work or that can be blamed on the employer. I’ve been to a couple of these evaluations myself, and the certification you get from these hour-long evaluations pretty much just says ”X is fit to work” with zero medical information. I don’t know what it would say if I had some issues.
Covid vaccinations can’t really be asked about yet, as our rollout hasn’t proceeded through all age groups yet and age is one of the things you can’t ask in an interview unless it’s for some reason relevant to the job. 35-39 booking opened yesterday. I also got some personally awesome news yesterday, as the local authorities declared it OK for pregnant women to get vaccinated! I’ll still call my maternity provider to check the vaccine is safe to combine with my specific pregnancy-related complications, but if I’m cleared by them I’ll be booking as soon as my age group opens.10 -
Mockchco - I think you will probably discover those persons were probably required to have a covid test prior to attending the game. They will also be required to be tested again a given number of days after the game. There have been a couple of events I've heard of here in Europe, the organisers were trying to discover the problems associated with the meeting of larger numbers of people. I think the number after a concert testing positive in the north UK were 5. Those cases might not have come from attending the concert itself but from other activity in those days. This seems to show, where numbers are low and everyone is pre tested the risks are low. I do understand concerns, its only natural.0
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Fuzzipeg No i dont think so.
Places in Australia where they have had outbreaks have played to empty stadiums - or to reduced capacity or almost full capacity depending on the state and the current covid situation there.
have not heard of spectators having covid tests prior.
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We have a big football game on here this weekend with almost 30,000 people attending. There is no mask requirement here right now since we've had zero community transmission so far but this is not a great idea. People will come from other towns or from other states and might bring Covid here.
Australia is dismally behind with the vaccination roll out and there is a break out in Victoria of the Indian variant right now. Since some from there bolted in caravans to other states to get away before lockdown who knows what will happen. Not happy about this one bit. Glad I've had at least one shot.
It's so nerve-wracking even when there's no current cases! I went to a concert back in February with 30k people (Wellington, NZ), and the very next day we had a lockdown announcement (the cluster then was Auckland-based, but as you say, people travel for these events).
Our travel bubble is "paused" with Victoria now too - but some kiwis had returned just before the latest lockdown, and last I heard some still hadn't responded to attempts to contact them.
We're a bit slow on vaccination here too - I get that we don't have quite the same urgency that other countries do, as we are currently doing well, but as the world vaccinations progress and things potentially start to open up, we need to be up with the program!
I am lucky enough to have got mine already due to DH's work, but not many people I know have had even one dose yet (all Pfizer here).2 -
Has anyone got their second shot (Pfizer) and NOT had a bad reaction? I am getting mine on Saturday and everyone keeps telling me I am going to be sick from it.
Also wondering if anyone has got their second shot at an extended interval yet - my first shot was three months ago. I think I am in the first cohort here to get the second shot on the extended time frame so not sure how that might influence the side effect situation.2
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