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Do you NEED to deadlift?
Replies
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Now, to ask the corollary question: should I STOP deadlifting?
Age 45 male, been lifting consistently for almost 13 years now, deadlifts are part of my weekly plan. Current fitness goals are primarily keeping functional fitness as I age, with a secondary goal of looking good for my age. No sports, no competitions, work a desk job with a long commute. I currently enjoy doing deadlifts.
Given the reluctance of multiple trainers in this thread to START adding deadlifts, should I be thinking about STOP including deadlifts?
There are some v experienced PTs on here and I rate and respect their advice. But as in all things, there are different opinions. I see a sports specialist physiotherapist, who himself has won medals in different sports. The first thing he does with his elderly patients is to get them deadlifting. When I first went in I was blown away to see a lady in her 70s doing deadlifts - maybe not heavy, but apparently a couple of months before she could hardly walk owing to back pain. I think the issue with deadlifts is that they can cause injury when done incorrectly - but so can many things. My worst sports injury came from swimming - not competitive martial arts or weightlifting. Good form, rest and recovery, and appropriate loading are crucial - whatever age we are. If you enjoy them, do them well and don’t suffer pain then I don’t think age should be a barrier. Just a 48 year old’s perspective 😀3 -
Yes opinions will vary. Experience does as well and my opinion comes from the years of watching hundreds of injuries happening from various lifts of people over 50 and the recover (or non recovery) from them. The 2 I've come to run into the most are low back injury and shoulder injury. And the normal exercises attributed to them are deadlifts and flat barbell benching. Hence I steer clients away from them if possible. IMO, alternatives are much better than risking a higher chance of getting injured. Yes load, rest and recovery are important, but because it only takes a minor mistake on execution that can cause injury, I'll take a different approach.claireychn074 wrote: »Now, to ask the corollary question: should I STOP deadlifting?
Age 45 male, been lifting consistently for almost 13 years now, deadlifts are part of my weekly plan. Current fitness goals are primarily keeping functional fitness as I age, with a secondary goal of looking good for my age. No sports, no competitions, work a desk job with a long commute. I currently enjoy doing deadlifts.
Given the reluctance of multiple trainers in this thread to START adding deadlifts, should I be thinking about STOP including deadlifts?
There are some v experienced PTs on here and I rate and respect their advice. But as in all things, there are different opinions. I see a sports specialist physiotherapist, who himself has won medals in different sports. The first thing he does with his elderly patients is to get them deadlifting. When I first went in I was blown away to see a lady in her 70s doing deadlifts - maybe not heavy, but apparently a couple of months before she could hardly walk owing to back pain. I think the issue with deadlifts is that they can cause injury when done incorrectly - but so can many things. My worst sports injury came from swimming - not competitive martial arts or weightlifting. Good form, rest and recovery, and appropriate loading are crucial - whatever age we are. If you enjoy them, do them well and don’t suffer pain then I don’t think age should be a barrier. Just a 48 year old’s perspective 😀
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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claireychn074 wrote: »Now, to ask the corollary question: should I STOP deadlifting?
Age 45 male, been lifting consistently for almost 13 years now, deadlifts are part of my weekly plan. Current fitness goals are primarily keeping functional fitness as I age, with a secondary goal of looking good for my age. No sports, no competitions, work a desk job with a long commute. I currently enjoy doing deadlifts.
Given the reluctance of multiple trainers in this thread to START adding deadlifts, should I be thinking about STOP including deadlifts?
There are some v experienced PTs on here and I rate and respect their advice. But as in all things, there are different opinions. I see a sports specialist physiotherapist, who himself has won medals in different sports. The first thing he does with his elderly patients is to get them deadlifting. When I first went in I was blown away to see a lady in her 70s doing deadlifts - maybe not heavy, but apparently a couple of months before she could hardly walk owing to back pain. I think the issue with deadlifts is that they can cause injury when done incorrectly - but so can many things. My worst sports injury came from swimming - not competitive martial arts or weightlifting. Good form, rest and recovery, and appropriate loading are crucial - whatever age we are. If you enjoy them, do them well and don’t suffer pain then I don’t think age should be a barrier. Just a 48 year old’s perspective 😀
I agree with this.
For those who don't deadlift themselves or don't have their clients deadlift, what type of replacement do you use? If any?
I'm one to think that hinging is vital but doesn't have to be done by traditional deadlifting. Just interested in the conversation.0 -
Squats, single leg deadlifts, kettlebell swings, etc. There are a lot of exercises you can do without big loads. You can do deadlifts in general with light loads as well. Again, if I have a client over 50 doing a deadlift as variation that they may want in their program, it's usually a rack deadlift where they don't have to come off the floor but start the dead lift from just below their knees.michael6186 wrote: »claireychn074 wrote: »Now, to ask the corollary question: should I STOP deadlifting?
Age 45 male, been lifting consistently for almost 13 years now, deadlifts are part of my weekly plan. Current fitness goals are primarily keeping functional fitness as I age, with a secondary goal of looking good for my age. No sports, no competitions, work a desk job with a long commute. I currently enjoy doing deadlifts.
Given the reluctance of multiple trainers in this thread to START adding deadlifts, should I be thinking about STOP including deadlifts?
There are some v experienced PTs on here and I rate and respect their advice. But as in all things, there are different opinions. I see a sports specialist physiotherapist, who himself has won medals in different sports. The first thing he does with his elderly patients is to get them deadlifting. When I first went in I was blown away to see a lady in her 70s doing deadlifts - maybe not heavy, but apparently a couple of months before she could hardly walk owing to back pain. I think the issue with deadlifts is that they can cause injury when done incorrectly - but so can many things. My worst sports injury came from swimming - not competitive martial arts or weightlifting. Good form, rest and recovery, and appropriate loading are crucial - whatever age we are. If you enjoy them, do them well and don’t suffer pain then I don’t think age should be a barrier. Just a 48 year old’s perspective 😀
I agree with this.
For those who don't deadlift themselves or don't have their clients deadlift, what type of replacement do you use? If any?
I'm one to think that hinging is vital but doesn't have to be done by traditional deadlifting. Just interested in the conversation.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Squats, single leg deadlifts, kettlebell swings, etc. There are a lot of exercises you can do without big loads. You can do deadlifts in general with light loads as well. Again, if I have a client over 50 doing a deadlift as variation that they may want in their program, it's usually a rack deadlift where they don't have to come off the floor but start the dead lift from just below their knees.michael6186 wrote: »claireychn074 wrote: »Now, to ask the corollary question: should I STOP deadlifting?
Age 45 male, been lifting consistently for almost 13 years now, deadlifts are part of my weekly plan. Current fitness goals are primarily keeping functional fitness as I age, with a secondary goal of looking good for my age. No sports, no competitions, work a desk job with a long commute. I currently enjoy doing deadlifts.
Given the reluctance of multiple trainers in this thread to START adding deadlifts, should I be thinking about STOP including deadlifts?
There are some v experienced PTs on here and I rate and respect their advice. But as in all things, there are different opinions. I see a sports specialist physiotherapist, who himself has won medals in different sports. The first thing he does with his elderly patients is to get them deadlifting. When I first went in I was blown away to see a lady in her 70s doing deadlifts - maybe not heavy, but apparently a couple of months before she could hardly walk owing to back pain. I think the issue with deadlifts is that they can cause injury when done incorrectly - but so can many things. My worst sports injury came from swimming - not competitive martial arts or weightlifting. Good form, rest and recovery, and appropriate loading are crucial - whatever age we are. If you enjoy them, do them well and don’t suffer pain then I don’t think age should be a barrier. Just a 48 year old’s perspective 😀
I agree with this.
For those who don't deadlift themselves or don't have their clients deadlift, what type of replacement do you use? If any?
I'm one to think that hinging is vital but doesn't have to be done by traditional deadlifting. Just interested in the conversation.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This sounds a lot like me. I use an XBar 3 imitation w/ bands that are like Rogue Monster bands to deadlift. At the most, it's like 150 lbs tops -- certainly not heavy.
But I'll also do 35kg KB swings (pretty heavy, even for a 195 lb guy like me).
I also love to do Pendulum single leg deadlifts too with the heavier KBs (my right and left knee have huge discrepancies in strength due to a dodgy right knee). It's good to hear a trainer say you don't have to lift super heavy to get some benefits. My son (who is 29 and really strong) mocks me incessantly, pesky brat! "What you do really isn't lifting...". How did I raise such an obnoxious kid! I ask myself that often. 🤣2 -
@ninerbuff @MikePfirrman @michael6186
Can you expand on what “traditional deadlifting” is? Or what is the “safest” deadlift? I’m no way close to your leagues (57, female and JUST yesterday increased to a 70lb deadlift - 2 35lb dumbbells and by rep 10 it was challenging).
I have a twitchy back, don’t think deadlifts are an issue but whenever I think I should remove them from my routine - OTHER deadlifts are suggested, which I don’t understand. I thought if you were going to stop deadlifting, that means ALL deadlifting, so seeing suggestions like the RDL or the trap bar deadlifts confuse me. I’ve read up on American deadlifts, conventional deadlifts, stiff leg deadlifts - they’re not all equal, I guess? Is there a safest deadlift?0 -
CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@ninerbuff @MikePfirrman @michael6186
Can you expand on what “traditional deadlifting” is? Or what is the “safest” deadlift? I’m no way close to your leagues (57, female and JUST yesterday increased to a 70lb deadlift - 2 35lb dumbbells and by rep 10 it was challenging).
I have a twitchy back, don’t think deadlifts are an issue but whenever I think I should remove them from my routine - OTHER deadlifts are suggested, which I don’t understand. I thought if you were going to stop deadlifting, that means ALL deadlifting, so seeing suggestions like the RDL or the trap bar deadlifts confuse me. I’ve read up on American deadlifts, conventional deadlifts, stiff leg deadlifts - they’re not all equal, I guess? Is there a safest deadlift?
I'm not a trainer, so I'm not the best to give advice.
I did some research on what you were asking (just to know because some of the variations were new to me as well). To me, as someone that's certainly not a specialist in the deadlift, they just look like piecemeal variations of the standard deadlift. Some looked like they were breaking down pieces of it and others emphasizing the hamstring more.
No matter what deadlift you're doing, it's the same concepts in a safe lift -- flat back, hip hinge.
I row as my choice of cardio. Studying the rowing stroke (although I'm limited to machine rowing) probably has led me to a much better understanding of the deadlift. The rowing stroke (done right, not like 99% of gym members do incorrectly) is more or less a deadlift into a clean on a rower. Similar to the deadlift, very easy to get injured if done incorrectly (and I did when I first started).
I'd just say keep at what you're doing and keep using lighter weights. I wouldn't worry too much about the variations. They look, to me, like adding in complexity where it's not necessary. Just my two cents.0 -
Not complexity, but rather pieces of the whole, or emphasizing different portions of the whole. For example, the rack deadlift is basically just doing the final few inches of the traditional deadlift, skipping the whole "lifting off the ground" portion. Meanwhile, a deficit deadlift is a regular deadlift but with your feet elevated a couple inches, effectively increasing the range of motion at the bottom.1
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Not complexity, but rather pieces of the whole, or emphasizing different portions of the whole. For example, the rack deadlift is basically just doing the final few inches of the traditional deadlift, skipping the whole "lifting off the ground" portion. Meanwhile, a deficit deadlift is a regular deadlift but with your feet elevated a couple inches, effectively increasing the range of motion at the bottom.
She also asked about stiff legged deadlifts. When I looked at those, I thought the same thing as this article states. You're asking for injury.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-the-worst-way-to-deadlift/0 -
To keep it in perspective my grandmother lived to age 96 without setting foot in a gym. She mowed her own lawn until age 92 and managed all the physical activities needed to care for her home and herself. She ate a healthy diet and maintained a normal weight. I’m using her as my example.1
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My grandmother was still getting speeding tickets into her 90's. Not sure I want to follow THAT example, lol.3
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »I do deadlifts because I like them - they are pretty much my favorite lift.
Please tell me I don't need to do squats ....
Squats will help keep you out of the home
https://seniorslifestylemag.com/health-well-being/how-the-squat-is-the-most-important-exercise-for-seniors/Damn my terrible knees and bad balance ...
What kind of squats do you hate the most? Note that none of the squats in the article include weight other than body weight.
I get squats from yoga and gardening, as does my 84 yo mother, who has no problems at all getting on and off the toilet.
Have you tried yoga for balance? You might be terrible at first, but over time will improve.0 -
SherryTeach wrote: »To keep it in perspective my grandmother lived to age 96 without setting foot in a gym. She mowed her own lawn until age 92 and managed all the physical activities needed to care for her home and herself. She ate a healthy diet and maintained a normal weight. I’m using her as my example.
Yes, my mother is very active. If she ends up in a nursing home, it will be because she fell off a ladder while cleaning gutters. (Don't get me started >.<)
OTOH, my partner's mother did end up in a nursing home. She was very sedentary, didn't do her PT exercises, and was eventually unable to go to the bathroom unassisted. She kept doing less and less, and eventually needed two people to get her on and off the toilet, a sad example of Use It or Lose It.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »CeeBeeSlim wrote: »@ninerbuff @MikePfirrman @michael6186
Can you expand on what “traditional deadlifting” is? Or what is the “safest” deadlift? I’m no way close to your leagues (57, female and JUST yesterday increased to a 70lb deadlift - 2 35lb dumbbells and by rep 10 it was challenging).
I have a twitchy back, don’t think deadlifts are an issue but whenever I think I should remove them from my routine - OTHER deadlifts are suggested, which I don’t understand. I thought if you were going to stop deadlifting, that means ALL deadlifting, so seeing suggestions like the RDL or the trap bar deadlifts confuse me. I’ve read up on American deadlifts, conventional deadlifts, stiff leg deadlifts - they’re not all equal, I guess? Is there a safest deadlift?
I'm not a trainer, so I'm not the best to give advice.
I did some research on what you were asking (just to know because some of the variations were new to me as well). To me, as someone that's certainly not a specialist in the deadlift, they just look like piecemeal variations of the standard deadlift. Some looked like they were breaking down pieces of it and others emphasizing the hamstring more.
No matter what deadlift you're doing, it's the same concepts in a safe lift -- flat back, hip hinge.
I row as my choice of cardio. Studying the rowing stroke (although I'm limited to machine rowing) probably has led me to a much better understanding of the deadlift. The rowing stroke (done right, not like 99% of gym members do incorrectly) is more or less a deadlift into a clean on a rower. Similar to the deadlift, very easy to get injured if done incorrectly (and I did when I first started).
I'd just say keep at what you're doing and keep using lighter weights. I wouldn't worry too much about the variations. They look, to me, like adding in complexity where it's not necessary. Just my two cents.
So to any question like this, such as, "Do I need to deadlift?" the logical answer to me will always begin with, "It depends." and/or "for what?".
We don't need to do anything. We want to and because we want to then the need becomes necessary.
However, there's always another side to this equation: The natural consequences of pursuing these things that we want or the natural consequences of avoiding them.
We don't need to "deadlift" but it's pretty safe that as human beings we need to move and hinging (deadlifting or otherwise) is a necessary component to our overall health.
If a person can't deadlift then they should at least hinge, right? Being that the deadlift is not a necessary component to everyone's goals, no not everyone needs to.
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I get why older folks skip the deadlift to avoid injury.
That said, I find it very valuable at 61. I deadlift about 3 times a month. Not heavy because I don’t have the strength- 1 rm is probably around 300 (estimated because I don’t really test 1rm).
Nothing has made me more aware of my body when doing everyday movements. I was the classic bend from the waist and lift the box person. Now, I am careful to bend from my knees, straighten my back etc. so it has helped me avoid injury in everyday situations- not because of strength but because of my thought processes.4 -
That's great. Like I stated earlier, I do have a couple of people over 50 deadlift with me, but they are very experienced and focused people when we train.Onedaywriter wrote: »I get why older folks skip the deadlift to avoid injury.
That said, I find it very valuable at 61. I deadlift about 3 times a month. Not heavy because I don’t have the strength- 1 rm is probably around 300 (estimated because I don’t really test 1rm).
Nothing has made me more aware of my body when doing everyday movements. I was the classic bend from the waist and lift the box person. Now, I am careful to bend from my knees, straighten my back etc. so it has helped me avoid injury in everyday situations- not because of strength but because of my thought processes.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Onedaywriter wrote: »I get why older folks skip the deadlift to avoid injury.
That said, I find it very valuable at 61. I deadlift about 3 times a month. Not heavy because I don’t have the strength- 1 rm is probably around 300 (estimated because I don’t really test 1rm).
Nothing has made me more aware of my body when doing everyday movements. I was the classic bend from the waist and lift the box person. Now, I am careful to bend from my knees, straighten my back etc. so it has helped me avoid injury in everyday situations- not because of strength but because of my thought processes.
I get that, too (the bolded). But here's the confounding part, for me: I know a lot of older folks who skip a lot of things out of fear of injury. Some - a fair percentage in my circle - become long-term . . . victims? . . . of that way of thinking - the fears and low self-expectations.
It's hard to figure out how to find a personal balance. I can still take on new things, and continue old ones, pretty much as I did when younger.
But injury does seem to have a higher cost for me, as I age: I detrain a little faster, heal a little slower, so any inability to exercise (or to do certain forms of exercise) is a bigger setback than when I was younger. Then, regain is a little slower overall, plus with a necessarily little-slower ramp-up to avoid re-injury. (I'm 66, didn't start being regularly active until my mid/late 40s.)
These are not big things individually, but they conspire, y'know - amplify each others' effects.
OTOH, stopping activities (or not taking on new and useful ones) has a cost, too . . . from what I've observed in others, a pretty big one. (Sometimes it's unavoidable because of true-obstacle disease, injury, or other physical issues . . . but not always. Sometimes it's fear based - or discouragement based - just giving up.
I don't do much leg weight work, personally, because it's too much leg emphasis for me on top of my more-enjoyed "cardio" that accumulates a lot of leg fatigue and muscle-recovery need. (I row and cycle, pretty leggy.) In the off season, I usually deadlift some, but more of an endurance-reps kind of format, i.e., lower weight, higher rep. I suspect that's also less risky, but heck, I'm not a personal trainer, what do I know? 😆
I feel like vulnerabilities are somewhat individual, vs. totally an age thing. Consequently, I don't like age assumptions**. Again, what do I know, though?
** Which makes me feel a little confused by @ninerbuff's (oversimplifying here) seeming to say "old people shouldn't deadlift, except for the ones who can/should".
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Meaning people who well trained in it and haven't suffered a back injury before will likely be okay, but people who haven't had it as a regular regimen in their training don't really need to bother to learn it because the risk many times will outweigh the actual benefit since there are so many other exercises that are much safer to perform to strengthen low back and hip hinge.
** Which makes me feel a little confused by @ninerbuff's (oversimplifying here) seeming to say "old people shouldn't deadlift, except for the ones who can/should".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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No you don't need to deadlift
But it is a fantastic movement for all around body strength and for my money shoulder health as well.
As for age and deadlifting I totally disagree.
If you are healthy with no prior injuries that prevent you from doing the movement--why not.
Teach them how to do the movement correctly from the start--by using an empty bar if needed--and you are good to go.
Personally,
I would have them stick with the classic Bill Starr 5x5 program--until they really get the form down.
I personally think most injuries happen when you try to do too many reps in the deads---ask me how I know!
Plus,
One area that seldom gets mentioned is the inner thigh--when the weights get heavy--or you get tired--and the knees start turning in--you need to get those inner thighs stronger.
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rippedwriter1 wrote: »I personally think most injuries happen when you try to do too many reps in the deads---ask me how I know!
Deadlifts are the one lift I prefer to keep my reps low. I used to pursue powerlifting, always seeking to improve my 1RM on all my lifts, but these days I don't like to do fewer than 5 reps on bench or 10 reps on squat. Yet deadlifts I refuse to do more than 5 reps for fear of my form breaking down due to fatigue and inviting injury. Consequently, I alternate weeks of 5x5 with 5x2.2 -
Since this thread includes a lot about older lifters who are new to lifting , this is my N=1 experience, having begun weights three and a half years ago.
Sorry, this is very long and I hope it all makes sense.
I started with a trainer, at age 56. Never lifted a weight or even exercised until deciding to lose weight.
She had me doing squats, benching, machines, sandbag carries, kettlebells, bamboos , ball slams, flipping tires etc.
BTW, she never, ever had me deadlift, except one time she had me use a trap (?). I asked why we didn’t deadlift, and she never explained. It was one of her peculiarities. You didn’t question her methods, but she was a damned good and challenging trainer so I let it ride.
She always challenged me to do more and lift more. She was in her 70’s herself, so always treated me like I should be able to do anything she could. (I wish!)
OTOH, workouts with her were always pre-planned, and it was show up and do this, do that, do this.
As a result, I think I learnt good form, but in all honesty, I don’t know the lingo and don’t know wtf y’all are talking about half the time. I regret missing out on that part because I can’t discuss -or understand discussions of- lifting intelligently.
Sadly, she retired about six months ago.
I’m on my own now, working out at a hospital affiliated gym, which, in addition to hospital personnel of all ages, leans very heavily towards rehab and senior clientele.
My experience moving from a powerlifting gym to the “Cocoon Gym” has been one of shockingly low expectations, and vast disappointment.
I’ve tried one of their trainers, explaining that I didn’t lift particularly heavy but came from a powerlifting gym, and wanted to be challenged. He wouldn’t see past the grey hair, even when I was begging for more. He was absolutely aghast at the idea I was lifting heavy enough to ask him to spot and wouldn’t even consider it.
He didn’t follow up for additional sessions. It was like being asked for more from a senior was so totally scary and unfamiliar to him, he chose to avoid me.
I still wanted to work with a trainer and began carefully watching their other trainers in hopes of finding someone, but see them doing the same routines with the same clients. No changing up, nothing heavy, no challenging.
If you’re training older people, I think you need to be able to adjust and adapt, and recognize their needs, wants, abilities.
These hospital trainers are all degreed in sports medicine, and other disciplines but imo are so removed from what their clients want or need, or could accomplish, it’s sad.
We’re an aging society. 🤷🏻♀️
At some point we have to accept that “old” is no longer a number. Some of us don’t want to sit on our *kitten* and play Candyland with the grandkids.
Right now there’s a chasm forming between the active healthy seniors, and the ones who have myriad health problems and don’t get up unless it’s for a snack or potty.
(Thank god I finally jumped that divide.)
As life expectancies grow, and medicine improves, older people will continue to act and feel younger to much greater ages than our parents. I sincerely hope that the general perception of “old” will advance further and further.
But the fitness industry is not keeping up. It seems to me it’s twenty, thirty years behind, and still pushing the “oh you’re 60, let me give you these two pound weights. Are you sure 2 mph isn’t too much on the treadmill?”
I want to deadlift. I want to go heavier on bench and squats, but am afraid to without a spot or safety bars. (I am flabbergasted their one bench has no safety.) At least they have a couple of good basic squat racks.
I’m dabbling in deadlifts now by myself in the squat rack, and also with heavier dumbbells and those “fixed “ weight bars you use for overhead presses. (See? Lack of lingo again. You ought to see my training notebook lol.)
I see so many older people here on MFP who want to try lifting, whom users even recommend to lift, heck, medical research suggests it for maintaining bone strength etc, but what I see out here in the field is a total lack of training support for these (us) people.
Don’t get me wrong. My gym is first class. It’s the highest rated gym in a major metro area and people who don’t live close tell me they’d kill to have it nearby. The weight room is huge, the equipment replaced every couple of years, the pool is amazing, cardio rooms well equipped, great class instructors but man, the weight area where the trainers are is just……….uninspired atmosphere.
It just seems like there’s a disconnect, my expectations are wrong, or maybe I just haven’t found my “tribe” or something.
I’d reconsider going back to the power gym, but none of those guys are certified as trainers, and I’m as afraid of being hurt there as I am of being frustrated at the new one. All the other local gyms are HIIT type places or Anytime types.
I feel like I’m too old yet not old enough. It’s very very frustrating out here.
Sorry to vent and probably bore, but surely there’s more than me out here and it’s a very square peggish feeling.10 -
springlering62 wrote: »Since this thread includes a lot about older lifters who are new to lifting , this is my N=1 experience, having begun weights three and a half years ago.
I feel like I’m too old yet not old enough. It’s very very frustrating out here.
Sorry to vent and probably bore, but surely there’s more than me out here and it’s a very square peggish feeling.
I think a lot of “traditional” teaching re fitness and age is flawed, and not just in the fitness industry. I had major surgery 8 years ago (I’m now 48) and even at that point the team suggested I find an easy form of exercise. (They suggested yoga or Pilates which annoyed me, as done properly those are actually v hard and challenging.)
I’ve had ongoing occasional issues following surgery and had to seek advice. The surgeons were horrified I started lifting. The nurses told me I shouldn’t. The local young Physios were horrified and only had one way of treating people, and I experienced this again when I badly sprained my ankle three years ago. So I found a sports physio, and the first thing I saw when I walked in was an elderly lady deadlifting (I believe she was late 80s). He explained she wanted to be able to lift her garden pots so he got all the injured older ladies lifting as soon as possible. He has a high success rate and a v low injury recurrence rate.
I don’t have a solution for you, but I just wanted to say don’t give up on finding that trainer who will challenge you again, and join in on any technical discussions. I never have a clue either but it hasn’t stopped me!
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I have SEVERAL clients over 60+ years old. Trust that I'll challenge them all the time. Many of my older clients will squat with 95lbs+ and leg press with 270lbs+. I don't think I have one that curls under 25lbs (even my oldest at 70+ does this much).springlering62 wrote: »Since this thread includes a lot about older lifters who are new to lifting , this is my N=1 experience, having begun weights three and a half years ago.
Sorry, this is very long and I hope it all makes sense.
I started with a trainer, at age 56. Never lifted a weight or even exercised until deciding to lose weight.
She had me doing squats, benching, machines, sandbag carries, kettlebells, bamboos , ball slams, flipping tires etc.
BTW, she never, ever had me deadlift, except one time she had me use a trap (?). I asked why we didn’t deadlift, and she never explained. It was one of her peculiarities. You didn’t question her methods, but she was a damned good and challenging trainer so I let it ride.
She always challenged me to do more and lift more. She was in her 70’s herself, so always treated me like I should be able to do anything she could. (I wish!)
OTOH, workouts with her were always pre-planned, and it was show up and do this, do that, do this.
As a result, I think I learnt good form, but in all honesty, I don’t know the lingo and don’t know wtf y’all are talking about half the time. I regret missing out on that part because I can’t discuss -or understand discussions of- lifting intelligently.
Sadly, she retired about six months ago.
I’m on my own now, working out at a hospital affiliated gym, which, in addition to hospital personnel of all ages, leans very heavily towards rehab and senior clientele.
My experience moving from a powerlifting gym to the “Cocoon Gym” has been one of shockingly low expectations, and vast disappointment.
I’ve tried one of their trainers, explaining that I didn’t lift particularly heavy but came from a powerlifting gym, and wanted to be challenged. He wouldn’t see past the grey hair, even when I was begging for more. He was absolutely aghast at the idea I was lifting heavy enough to ask him to spot and wouldn’t even consider it.
He didn’t follow up for additional sessions. It was like being asked for more from a senior was so totally scary and unfamiliar to him, he chose to avoid me.
I still wanted to work with a trainer and began carefully watching their other trainers in hopes of finding someone, but see them doing the same routines with the same clients. No changing up, nothing heavy, no challenging.
If you’re training older people, I think you need to be able to adjust and adapt, and recognize their needs, wants, abilities.
These hospital trainers are all degreed in sports medicine, and other disciplines but imo are so removed from what their clients want or need, or could accomplish, it’s sad.
We’re an aging society. 🤷🏻♀️
At some point we have to accept that “old” is no longer a number. Some of us don’t want to sit on our *kitten* and play Candyland with the grandkids.
Right now there’s a chasm forming between the active healthy seniors, and the ones who have myriad health problems and don’t get up unless it’s for a snack or potty.
(Thank god I finally jumped that divide.)
As life expectancies grow, and medicine improves, older people will continue to act and feel younger to much greater ages than our parents. I sincerely hope that the general perception of “old” will advance further and further.
But the fitness industry is not keeping up. It seems to me it’s twenty, thirty years behind, and still pushing the “oh you’re 60, let me give you these two pound weights. Are you sure 2 mph isn’t too much on the treadmill?”
I want to deadlift. I want to go heavier on bench and squats, but am afraid to without a spot or safety bars. (I am flabbergasted their one bench has no safety.) At least they have a couple of good basic squat racks.
I’m dabbling in deadlifts now by myself in the squat rack, and also with heavier dumbbells and those “fixed “ weight bars you use for overhead presses. (See? Lack of lingo again. You ought to see my training notebook lol.)
I see so many older people here on MFP who want to try lifting, whom users even recommend to lift, heck, medical research suggests it for maintaining bone strength etc, but what I see out here in the field is a total lack of training support for these (us) people.
Don’t get me wrong. My gym is first class. It’s the highest rated gym in a major metro area and people who don’t live close tell me they’d kill to have it nearby. The weight room is huge, the equipment replaced every couple of years, the pool is amazing, cardio rooms well equipped, great class instructors but man, the weight area where the trainers are is just……….uninspired atmosphere.
It just seems like there’s a disconnect, my expectations are wrong, or maybe I just haven’t found my “tribe” or something.
I’d reconsider going back to the power gym, but none of those guys are certified as trainers, and I’m as afraid of being hurt there as I am of being frustrated at the new one. All the other local gyms are HIIT type places or Anytime types.
I feel like I’m too old yet not old enough. It’s very very frustrating out here.
Sorry to vent and probably bore, but surely there’s more than me out here and it’s a very square peggish feeling.
I will agree that many in the field will baby their older clients. But we're also taught that safety is the number one factor for clients over 60+. Since many don't have the ability to actually add much muscle, progression will stop quite quickly and we have be aware that even though they may believe they can handle more resistance, sometimes that's not always the best thing for them.
Had a member over 60 who has always been a powerlifter his whole life. I've always watched this guy lift but always noticed after flatbenching, he always was massaging his left pec after a set. Well he finally tore it (full detachment) and when I last saw him he told me that because of detachment and how they had to repair it, his range of motion on that side would be significantly different. And now when he works out, you can definitely see that he can barely bring his elbow back to 90 degrees. You can definitely tell he's disappointed. And in my opinion, it can be something like this that can bring on depression because of what he used to be able to do and can no longer do.
I care for all my clients and want them to be able to workout for the rest of their lives happily. I am willing to bend to certain exercises like deadlift and flat bench IF I really believe that the person wants to do it and we ONLY do it with the strictest form and not do it for ego lifting.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Why can't the body and mind get it together. The mind is finally willing, but the body doesn't have the capacity. The body is strong, but the mind is waiting for the perfect opportunity to begin. Tomorrow.
"I don't mind getting older, but my body is taking it badly." Oy vey.
1 -
A personal trainer years ago in my 20s had me deadlift weight that was way too heavy for me, but he insisted I could do it and that was the way to get results. Well despite using proper form I got injured. I now have two bulging discs and constant back pain. Never again.2
-
I'm going to do some radical snippage on @springlering62's excellent PP to highlight some things I want to comment on, putting ellipses in where my cuts are. In the process, I may create a misimpression of her key ideas, so please read her full post above.springlering62 wrote: »Since this thread includes a lot about older lifters who are new to lifting , this is my N=1 experience, having begun weights three and a half years ago.
. . .
I started with a trainer, at age 56. Never lifted a weight or even exercised until deciding to lose weight.
She had me doing squats, benching, machines, sandbag carries, kettlebells, bamboos , ball slams, flipping tires etc.
. . .
She always challenged me to do more and lift more. She was in her 70’s herself, so always treated me like I should be able to do anything she could. (I wish!)
. . .
Sadly, she retired about six months ago.
I’m on my own now, working out at a hospital affiliated gym, which, in addition to hospital personnel of all ages, leans very heavily towards rehab and senior clientele.
My experience moving from a powerlifting gym to the “Cocoon Gym” has been one of shockingly low expectations, and vast disappointment.
I’ve tried one of their trainers, explaining that I didn’t lift particularly heavy but came from a powerlifting gym, and wanted to be challenged. He wouldn’t see past the grey hair, even when I was begging for more. He was absolutely aghast at the idea I was lifting heavy enough to ask him to spot and wouldn’t even consider it.
He didn’t follow up for additional sessions. It was like being asked for more from a senior was so totally scary and unfamiliar to him, he chose to avoid me.
. . .
If you’re training older people, I think you need to be able to adjust and adapt, and recognize their needs, wants, abilities.
These hospital trainers are all degreed in sports medicine, and other disciplines but imo are so removed from what their clients want or need, or could accomplish, it’s sad.
We’re an aging society. 🤷🏻♀️
At some point we have to accept that “old” is no longer a number. Some of us don’t want to sit on our *kitten* and play Candyland with the grandkids.
Right now there’s a chasm forming between the active healthy seniors, and the ones who have myriad health problems and don’t get up unless it’s for a snack or potty.
(Thank god I finally jumped that divide.)
As life expectancies grow, and medicine improves, older people will continue to act and feel younger to much greater ages than our parents. I sincerely hope that the general perception of “old” will advance further and further.
But the fitness industry is not keeping up. It seems to me it’s twenty, thirty years behind, and still pushing the “oh you’re 60, let me give you these two pound weights. Are you sure 2 mph isn’t too much on the treadmill?”
. . .
I see so many older people here on MFP who want to try lifting, whom users even recommend to lift, heck, medical research suggests it for maintaining bone strength etc, but what I see out here in the field is a total lack of training support for these (us) people.
. . .
It just seems like there’s a disconnect, my expectations are wrong, or maybe I just haven’t found my “tribe” or something.
. . .
I feel like I’m too old yet not old enough. It’s very very frustrating out here.
Sorry to vent and probably bore, but surely there’s more than me out here and it’s a very square peggish feeling.
This really resonates with me. I stole the phrases "tyranny of low expectations" and "bigotry of low expectations" from another MFP-er in another context, but IMO it applies here big time.
I can sort of empathize with the trainers: Statistically, senior people are in sub-par physical condition, and rehab-type trainers are especially likely to see the worse tail of the bell curve, i.e., people who've had some health crisis after an inactive/unhealthful lifestyle, who are working toward recovery. Trainers' attitudes are influenced by that personal experience.
I appreciate that there exist classes like "Silver Sneakers" and "Fit After 50", etc., at my YMCA, and I know that some of my friends have found those things challenging and helpful, but found regular classes too difficult thus discouraging. But, at 66, those are not classes for me, and I know many other folks around my age and older who are also fine - even high performers - in regular all-ages group classes or activities.
I think the expectations of senior women are even lower, compared to senior men. There's a relevant structural history there, too, in that when I was young (high school/college), sports for young women were not widely available and not widely accepted, and as we aged through 20s to 40s+ there was more "aerobic dance" kind of emphasis than much of anything else, or at best very low weight high-rep circuit kinds of things. As a category, we are neither as strong nor as physically confident as today's young women will be after 50 - I expect.
IME, many women my age have ultra-low expectations of themselves, too - destructively so. (True even of younger women to some extent, too - I think, from watching young women use weight machines at my gym in obviously easy-peasy ways that I don't see similar-age men doing.) I'm not talking so much about what women can achieve in the short run - many of us do have a history to remediate; rather, I'm talking about what many senior women think they might be able to do longer run with patient, diligent progressive effort. We all need to start where we are, even if depleted - but severely underestimating the potential future outcomes is toxic.
It feels like age, in and of itself, leads to stereotyping. Ideally, there'd be an individualized assessment of people at intake to training, as free as possible from age or gender assumptions. We each have a "fitness history" we could describe (in much the same way doctors interview us to get a health history). We can be assessed carefully for strength, range of motion, aerobic capacity, etc. I'm not saying that should happen just for seniors, but rather for everyone.
Frankly, here on MFP and in real life I see people who are pretty young, whose fitness history (or lack thereof) has already left them with serious physical limitations. Those should be factored into their training plans and progression realistically, too. They can get hurt easily, too, then discouraged or physically hindered.
Trainers are just human, though, with the same tendency to assumptions, stereotypes, received "wisdom" in some cases that doesn't necessarily apply to every individual or that is entirely myth, and more. Humans also are more hesitant to hurt people by explicit action, less hesitant to let non-action have bad consequences. (Read about the Trolley Problem and empirical experiments.)
I have no idea what should happen in this space, but things are currently suboptimal. I don't have as clear a story to tell about it, but I've felt the kind of hesitancy and low expectations from instructors/trainers/coaches that @springlering62 describes. (Sometimes I felt that it was my gender, sometimes my age, sometimes my obesity back when I was obese, sometimes a combination.)
This is explicitly not intended as any kind of comment or critique of Niner's particular rules of thumb or approach. It's just some fretting and whining about how a large segment of the fitness world seems to work, or not work, as a generality.5 -
@AnnPT77
I must say this is well written and I think I can agree with mostly everything said here.
A huge problem within this space of fitness is we're not looking at things in a scientific and methodical approach.
It's evident that "age is just a number" for most things in life but there are some general truths that follow acting as stereotypes that end up putting people into categories that they don't always belong to.
We can easily overcome that by having an appropriate assessment; that's not just done at the beginning of the program but should be administered repeatedly throughout the process, closely observing what's most important at that time and then adjusting to the feedback rather than just sticking to the plan no matter what.
Age has been shown to play a factor in how quickly one recovers from exercise training and that should be taken into account but it shouldn't be acted upon in a general nature because that's ignorant and takes away from the capabilities of the trainee.
We should also be careful to not act as if what we see happening in the margins (specialized groups, elite athletes) is also true for the whole. It's easy to be biased when looking at only our own experiences or when looking at other's experiences. It's easy to find what you're looking for when you look in the right places. However, I will also add that we as people should be aware of the risks and accept them as part of the journey to reaching out goals.
Every trainee should be assessed and trained appropriately to where they are versus where they want to go. Not even in elite athletics is there a one size fits all formula. There are many roads to where you're going but everyone must take their own path in getting there. Avoiding things doesn't necessarily make you stronger all the time, sometimes it's necessary to go through that very struggle to come out better on the other side.
Personal experience: My niece is 13 years old and is a top volleyball player in her state but aside from that, her lifestyle outside of volleyball leaves her susceptible to many health risk. She eats trash, stays up all night, and plays video games until it's time for volleyball. This lifestyle will surely catch up with her.
So age is hardly the only metric we should be looking at when deciding what is best appropriate for what people should or should not do in the gym.2 -
“ A huge problem within this space of fitness is we're not looking at things in a scientific and methodical approach. ” (having problems with phone responding so apologies for lack of code)
The thing is, there is a world of difference between telling an older lifter (and what age does someone qualify as an older lifter?) that they need longer recovery times, that DLs aren’t essential but if you do them there is an increased risk of injury, that they may tax the CNS more in some older lifters, and “women of a certain age should not deadlift” . I am not suggesting any of the posters here have or would said that - just personal experience.
On the flip side, women actually need shorter recovery times than men inbetween sets - yet how many trainers tell clients that? The hormonal cycle can also affect performance and not many trainers reference that.
I admit i am biased to my own experience and I’ve always been very active, driven to achieve and do what I enjoy. I may not be the typical menopausal middle aged women, but I hope women of a similar age get to play with weights and see if they like them - rather than believing their age and sex makes it intrinsically dangerous. (Typed on unreliable phone so sorry for any errors)3 -
claireychn074 wrote: »(another snip by reply-er that may misrepresent the PP's full thought)
I admit i am biased to my own experience and I’ve always been very active, driven to achieve and do what I enjoy. I may not be the typical menopausal middle aged women, but I hope women of a similar age get to play with weights and see if they like them - rather than believing their age and sex makes it intrinsically dangerous. (Typed on unreliable phone so sorry for any errors)
I'm going to comment on the bolded, about my experience with self-perceptions of other women around my age (I'm 66, so we'll say +/- 10 years of that). I know that's not the main point of this thread (though related IMO). Also, there will be a story involved that takes some explanation. Therefore, I'm putting the main stuff in a spoiler that you can read or not, as you choose.My experience with other women my age is that it's extremely common for women to believe that their age/sex makes it intrinsically dangerous to lift anything heavy, so that they resist strength training. I'd also almost say that there's a subjective . . . distaste? . . . for the idea of lifting heavy things that's also common.
Example story, that takes a long set-up. I row. I started rowing on a breast cancer survivors team about 20 years ago. Sure, that situation may seem to over-select for exercise-hesitant women, but I'd point out that the team consists of the most exercise-willing couple of dozen women among thousands of eligible breast cancer survivors here, so I don't think they're super unrepresentative of women at large in the age group.
In rowing, we carry our boats to the water. An eight (designed for 8 rowers and a coxswain) is around 60 feet long, typically weighs something in the 200 to 225 or so pound (91-102kg) range: Heavy, awkward.
Normally 8 rowers carry the boat. An eight is probably around 18" (46cm) or so wide, gunwale to gunwale. At the dock, the rowers pick the boat up from around their foot level, each with one hand on either gunwale, swing it to full arms extension overhead in a synchronized movement.
Usually, we don't carry it there, but drop it to rest on shoulders, with 4 rowers spread along each side of the boat, then we walk with it to/from the boathouse and put it on a rack. Putting it in the water from the dock is opposite: Up from shoulders to arm extension, swing it down and reach out beyond feet to put it in the water. Here's a photo of the midway point:
The individual weight burden changes a little, depending on relative heights of people, movement, etc., but it'll be 25-30 awkward pounds (11-13kg) total per rower.
This team, mostly aged 40+, struggled to do this. We normally needed a couple of extra people (so 10) to carry an eight.
One season, I set up a scenario where each rower could test herself, and see how much she could lift in this situation. I lined up several pairs of dumbbells about boat width apart on the floor, starting with 5 pounds (about 2.2kg), and going up to at least 15 pounds (just under 7kg). It was maybe 5 lbs, 8 lbs, 10 lbs, 12 lbs, 15 lbs? (There might've been a pair of 20s, I forget - it's been a while.)
The idea was to do the "lift the boat from the water" motion, keeping the dumbbells spaced about that 18" apart, starting with the low weights, and seeing how far each person could go safely.
First, much hesitancy ensued from a fair fraction of the group, even to try it. Partly embarrassment, partly fear. A fair fraction of the group failed out pretty low (I suspect lower than the amount of weight they actually lifted when it was a boat, let alone when lifting a grandkid.)
My hope/intention was that they would see where they were, be motivated to improve in order to better support their teammates (because some of us who were stronger felt that some others were doing things when carrying boats that risked our safety sometimes!), and maybe be willing to practice this movement with dumbbells in the off season to improve strength.
Pretty much universally, from any who'd not lifted weights before, this last was a Big No. They were not willing to lift weights (even starting with dumbbells pretty easy for them) to train this movement. It was too dangerous. They would get hurt, they thought.
Long run, this hesitancy limited our on-water practices (we needed at least 10 present to lift an eight, or we needed to take smaller boats with extra carry-people on those).
Eventually, for unrelated reasons, the team broke up. Those of us who most loved rowing and were more confident had joined the local rowing club, and we routinely carry 4, 2 and one person boats, including women in their 70s. (Club owns no eights; the other boats are proportionately lighter, but we carry the 4 and 2 person boats with just 4 or 2 rowers, unless someone's recovering from something or the like.)
Some of the other women from the old team say they want to row, but are afraid about carrying the boats, still don't want to train for it. 🤷♀️
Just for fun, this is me (now 66) around a year or two ago carrying a double with my (now 76 y/o) rowing buddy (she's at the far end). The double is around 60 lb/27kg, around 30 ft/9m long . My friend's been strength training since her 30s - when she hid the fact that she did it from her clients (she was a beautician/hair stylist) because it would've been Bad for Business back then. To watch her move, you'd think she was multiple decades younger, 40s/50s at most.
Low self-expectations and fear are a big and common limiter, IMO, and sadly especially so IME among older women . . . to the detriment of strength, health, and long-run independence, I fear. Maybe even to the detriment of longevity.
5 -
springlering62 wrote: »...I’m on my own now, working out at a hospital affiliated gym, which, in addition to hospital personnel of all ages, leans very heavily towards rehab and senior clientele.
This makes me think of my experience of physical therapy through the VA, which I've had off and on for knee, hip, elbow, and wrist since 2010 or so.
All my life I've seen physical therapists on TV/ in movies depicted as almost sadistic. But in real life I've never broken a sweat or been sore afterwards.
There was only one exercise that ever felt challenging, and that was on my bad hip. I am a great patient, and still do most of these exercises to this day. My right hip has been the same as my left hip for a long time now. Still having problems with my knee, though
I wonder if real life civilian physical therapists tend to be as gentle, or if the VA PT's are more gentle due to their client demographics.0
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