You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
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Obese/very overweight persons who take up weight lifting, athletes returning to weight lifting after an extended layoff, newbies who have never lifted before.Just quoting a part of your post here. Curious to know who these types of people are that build muscle on a deficit. Not sure whether I may be one of these types...
Defined muscles don't mean that they were "gained". It is usually the removal of fat that exposes muscle underneath that leads many people to think they put on muscle. It was already there. Exercise can "fill" up the muscle though with glycogen and water giving it a fuller appearance.Also, those who put up bef and after pictures of themselves, say doing the 30DS and other JM videos, would have gained muscle while at a deficit since the majority of them have lost weight AND have more defined abs for example?
Nope. At that point they are just trying to reduce body fat to reveal the muscle they have already put on and doing what they can to retain it for competition.And how about bodybuilders who are "cutting" - they get leaner, losing more BF and more defined? Don't they put on muscle at that stage?
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Ok so your sayin that anyone that has a difference of opinion than you has the burden of proof but you shouldnt have to provide any proof to support your opinion? How about studies that prove me wrong?
That's the problem. I did google it and nothing came up but the same article. (which if we were debating correctly, I shouldn't have to provide proof of burden). When evidence is to be examined, then there should be an abstract of the actual study. For all I know, this guy who posted the article is anecdotally telling us that a study was done. I just wanted a link to the actual study so I could see the abstract and how it was performed. I haven't asked for anything that is unattainable unless it doesn't exist.I give up, You will try to discredit anything in order not to admit that your wrong. If you want to see the Californina U., Google it yourself!!! The people in the study ate 2,000 per day lost weight and gained muscle which you have claimed was impossible, If your saying that you can lose weight while not at a deficit then maybe I am wrong and was eating at a surplus but still lost weight 83 lbs over the past year. ( I didnt think it was possible to lose weight while at a surplus)
Burden of proof is on you, not me. I shouldn't have to prove your stance. In case you don't know what that means here is the definition:While your at it google the UConn (Storr) study.
the duty of proving a disputed assertion or charge
Again anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. If someone says they saw a UFO or Bigfoot, are we just to accept them at their word? Even if they say "I swear on my life!"?Also Im not the only one who has posted in this thread that have gained muscle while on a deficit. I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong, (but Im not this time, Like I said the tape doesnt lie) For example: For the first 3-4 months of my weight loss I kept my fat to under 25 grams per day, I thought by keeping your fat intake low, would allow me to eat more calories and still lose weight.
Reread a lot of the quotes I reposted of what you said. The dispute isn't that you CAN'T put on ANY muscle on calorie deficit,(we have actually medical evidence to prove that from the types of people that can) the dispute is that it's practically impossible to build noticeable amount while on calorie deficit, but your argumentation (from your posts) is that you have that ability with no evidence (medical or otherwise) to back it.
This isn't to take away from what you achieved. You've done a great job, but from a scientific standpoint, it didn't happen the way you think it did.
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HEY PEOPLE PLEASE IF YOU CAN CHECK OUT MY POST AND HELP ME OUT ID REALLY APPRECIATE IT THANK YOU
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/538018-help-understanding-the-concept-of-calorie-deficit0 -
No, if there is a difference of opinion then there's a difference of opinion. Your stance isn't opinion, you're saying it's doable and factual and disregards what other clinical studies have shown not to be true.Ok so your sayin that anyone that has a difference of opinion than you has the burden of proof but you shouldnt have to provide any proof to support your opinion? How about studies that prove me wrong?
As to the studies that prove you wrong, let's start with the basics: Laws of Thermodynamics
The First Law basically says that energy or matter can neither be created nor destroyed. In terms of the machine, this meant that the total energy output (work by the machine) is equal to the heat supplied. In other words, the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the heat added to the system minus the work done by the system. Because the system operates in the real world, some energy always escapes into the outside world, thus leading to both inefficiency and the Second Law, which was generated to cover the so-called flaw in the First Law.
The Second Law essentially says that it is impossible to obtain a process where the unique effect is the subtraction of a positive heat from a reservoir and the production of a positive work. Energy exhibits entropy. It moves away form its source. In this sense, energy or heat cannot flow form a colder body to a hotter body. You cannot keep a continual flow of heat to work to heat to work without adding energy to the system. In machine terms, you have to add energy to get more work, and the ratio of heat to work will never equal 100% due to energy expanding away from its source.
The Third Law explains this further. It says that all processes cease as temperature approaches absolute zero. This is the temperature at which molecules cease movement, cease producing kinetic energy. In other words, there is no energy.
You cannot create something from nothing.
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Niner if what you are claiming is true it would also be impossible for a person, regardless of being a newbie, just getting back into lifting or even over weight to gain any muscle at all while on a defict. regardless of how smail the gain.
No, if there is a difference of opinion then there's a difference of opinion. Your stance isn't opinion, you're saying it's doable and factual and disregards what other clinical studies have shown not to be true.Ok so your sayin that anyone that has a difference of opinion than you has the burden of proof but you shouldnt have to provide any proof to support your opinion? How about studies that prove me wrong?
As to the studies that prove you wrong, let's start with the basics: Laws of Thermodynamics
The First Law basically says that energy or matter can neither be created nor destroyed. In terms of the machine, this meant that the total energy output (work by the machine) is equal to the heat supplied. In other words, the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the heat added to the system minus the work done by the system. Because the system operates in the real world, some energy always escapes into the outside world, thus leading to both inefficiency and the Second Law, which was generated to cover the so-called flaw in the First Law.
The Second Law essentially says that it is impossible to obtain a process where the unique effect is the subtraction of a positive heat from a reservoir and the production of a positive work. Energy exhibits entropy. It moves away form its source. In this sense, energy or heat cannot flow form a colder body to a hotter body. You cannot keep a continual flow of heat to work to heat to work without adding energy to the system. In machine terms, you have to add energy to get more work, and the ratio of heat to work will never equal 100% due to energy expanding away from its source.
The Third Law explains this further. It says that all processes cease as temperature approaches absolute zero. This is the temperature at which molecules cease movement, cease producing kinetic energy. In other words, there is no energy.
You cannot create something from nothing.
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
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Waiting for the studies that support your opinion.0 -
I don't believe he said that it's impossible for "noob" gains.Reread a lot of the quotes I reposted of what you said. The dispute isn't that you CAN'T put on ANY muscle on calorie deficit,(we have actually medical evidence to prove that from the types of people that can) the dispute is that it's practically impossible to build noticeable amount while on calorie deficit, but your argumentation (from your posts) is that you have that ability with no evidence (medical or otherwise) to back it.
I'm not sure how to bold things but the emphasis in his statement should be on "noticeable" amount. A half-inch to inch are nice gains but not huge gains.
I was surprised by your comment about bodybuilders putting on muscle while on a cut. One book I read by Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale indicated that he worked with bodybuilders during a cut that sometimes lost as much as 40% of their muscle mass while on a cut and some of the best results were only a 10% loss while on a cut. The best they can hope to do is maintain.0 -
I don't believe he said that it's impossible for "noob" gains.Reread a lot of the quotes I reposted of what you said. The dispute isn't that you CAN'T put on ANY muscle on calorie deficit,(we have actually medical evidence to prove that from the types of people that can) the dispute is that it's practically impossible to build noticeable amount while on calorie deficit, but your argumentation (from your posts) is that you have that ability with no evidence (medical or otherwise) to back it.
I'm not sure how to bold things but the emphasis in his statement should be on "noticeable" amount. A half-inch to inch are nice gains but not huge gains.
I was surprised by your comment about bodybuilders putting on muscle while on a cut. One book I read by Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale indicated that he worked with bodybuilders during a cut that sometimes lost as much as 40% of their muscle mass while on a cut and some of the best results were only a 10% loss while on a cut. The best they can hope to do is maintain.
First, I Know he didnt say its impossible for newbie gains. What I said was if his reasons (in his last post) were correct it would be impossible for anyone to gain muscle while cutting weight regardless of if they were a newbie or an experienced lifter etc.
Second, I never said a half inch or an inch were huge gains. If I would have ate 4,000 calories per day and completely cut out cardio over the past year I would have gained alot more lean muscle. Any newbie would with the exception of people with low T-levels.
Third, I never made the comment about bber's building muscle while on a cut. Your talking about individuals who are cutting down to 5-8% BF%, (for males) from 15-20% BF. The average male is not suppose to be 5-8% BF. and many of them go thru hell to get there and dont stay there long. If I had to only lose 10-15 lbs. I would have bulked then did a cut. (like I just started to do)0 -
Burden of proof is on you, not me. I shouldn't have to prove your stance. In case you don't know what that means here is the definition:
the duty of proving a disputed assertion or charge
This seems to be a totally lost concept on these boards, the burden of proof falls on the original claim maker. Yet people get all pissy when asked to substantiate their claim with something more then anecdotal evidence0 -
Hey I posted evidence, Most people would accept an article from Lance Armstrongs website, I then posted some studies ( its not like they are easy to find) What is more than abundant though is 100's of articles written by experts more qualified than Ninerbuff. The fact of the matter is nothing I do is good enough for niner, he comes here to argue, just look at the Tim Tebow thread.http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/372688-tim-tebowBurden of proof is on you, not me. I shouldn't have to prove your stance. In case you don't know what that means here is the definition:
the duty of proving a disputed assertion or charge
This seems to be a totally lost concept on these boards, the burden of proof falls on the original claim maker. Yet people get all pissy when asked to substantiate their claim with something more then anecdotal evidence
He will keep going and going until they just give up.
Also could you show me were I can find the guidelines of this board?? I didnt see were it said the burden of proof falls on the original claim. And in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with niner asking for proof, but he should also return the favor when the same is asked of him,0 -
Hey I posted evidence, Most people would accept an article from Lance Armstrongs website, I then posted some studies ( its not like they are easy to find) What is more than abundant though is 100's of articles written by experts more qualified than Ninerbuff. The fact of the matter is nothing I do is good enough for niner, he comes here to argue, just look at the Tim Tebow thread. He will keep going and going until they just give up.Burden of proof is on you, not me. I shouldn't have to prove your stance. In case you don't know what that means here is the definition:
the duty of proving a disputed assertion or charge
This seems to be a totally lost concept on these boards, the burden of proof falls on the original claim maker. Yet people get all pissy when asked to substantiate their claim with something more then anecdotal evidence
Also could you show me were I can find the guidelines of this board?? I didnt see were it said the burden of proof falls on the original claim. And in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with niner asking for proof, but he should also return the favor when the same is asked of him,
Sorry Livestrong doesn't count as evidence. Articles without references also aren't really evidence either, regardless of author.
And it's not in the guidelines of these board, it is how argument and debate works. Someone makes the initial claim, the burden of proof falls on them to substantiate it. After it's substantiated then you can get to making the person making the counter claim substantiate their position0 -
I wanted to start this thread because of the "" Muscle Does Not Weigh More Than Fat" thread. Reading thru it I read numerous posts that claimed that you cannot gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. Yes you can!! Please do not let these misguided comments stop you from implementing some type of lifting program while you are on your journey for a new body!! Weight training while dieting is very important because if you dont about 22% of your total weight loss will be Lean Muscle! Most people who do not lift while dieting are not happy with their body even after they reached or even surpassed their goals.
Thanks for this. I'm been working my @$$ off for the last few months and the scale wouldn't budge at all. My clothes were getting looser though. When I finally had my follow up I found I had not lost one single ounce in the last 2.5 months but I'd lost 10% body fat. I asked an RN how this could be true if I was eating at a deficit and she said it is entirely possible to gain muscle on a deficit. This only comes into play with hard core weight lifters who are looking to put on serious muscle.0 -
I tried that aswell, again not good enough for niner.
Hey I posted evidence, Most people would accept an article from Lance Armstrongs website, I then posted some studies ( its not like they are easy to find) What is more than abundant though is 100's of articles written by experts more qualified than Ninerbuff. The fact of the matter is nothing I do is good enough for niner, he comes here to argue, just look at the Tim Tebow thread. He will keep going and going until they just give up.Burden of proof is on you, not me. I shouldn't have to prove your stance. In case you don't know what that means here is the definition:
the duty of proving a disputed assertion or charge
This seems to be a totally lost concept on these boards, the burden of proof falls on the original claim maker. Yet people get all pissy when asked to substantiate their claim with something more then anecdotal evidence
Also could you show me were I can find the guidelines of this board?? I didnt see were it said the burden of proof falls on the original claim. And in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with niner asking for proof, but he should also return the favor when the same is asked of him,
Sorry Livestrong doesn't count as evidence. Articles without references also aren't really evidence either, regardless of author.
And it's not in the guidelines of these board, it is how argument and debate works. Someone makes the initial claim, the burden of proof falls on them to substantiate it. After it's substantiated then you can get to making the person making the counter claim substantiate their position
Here it is again:
http://getfitguy.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time.aspx
What Do Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies Tell Us?
In a situation like this, the best place to turn is science, which can tell us whether something that seems to be impossible may actually be possible.
One study from California State University tracked a group of healthy men for eight weeks. The men ate a lot of food--over 4000 calories a day--and did weight training four days a week for 60-90 minutes. The men gained an average of six pounds of muscle, but also gained ½ pound of fat. In another study, men also trained with weights several times a week, but this time, they ate just a little over 2000 calories a day. This group gained 2.5 pounds of muscle and lost over 7 pounds of fat!
What About Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies with Women?
A similar set of studies were done on women. Women who performed weight training workouts for eight weeks, but didn’t diet, added 2.4 pounds of muscle, but didn’t lose much fat. In the same study, a group of women who dieted added a pound of muscle over the same time frame, but lost a significant amount of fat0 -
I also found another article that used a study done by UConn. (storr) as a reference but I couldnt find the actual study.0
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Your welcome!! And congrads on your hard work. I also apologize in advance for the people who are going to tell you that your mistaken, clueless etc,I wanted to start this thread because of the "" Muscle Does Not Weigh More Than Fat" thread. Reading thru it I read numerous posts that claimed that you cannot gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. Yes you can!! Please do not let these misguided comments stop you from implementing some type of lifting program while you are on your journey for a new body!! Weight training while dieting is very important because if you dont about 22% of your total weight loss will be Lean Muscle! Most people who do not lift while dieting are not happy with their body even after they reached or even surpassed their goals.
Thanks for this. I'm been working my @$$ off for the last few months and the scale wouldn't budge at all. My clothes were getting looser though. When I finally had my follow up I found I had not lost one single ounce in the last 2.5 months but I'd lost 10% body fat. I asked an RN how this could be true if I was eating at a deficit and she said it is entirely possible to gain muscle on a deficit. This only comes into play with hard core weight lifters who are looking to put on serious muscle.0 -
Bump0
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I tried that aswell, again not good enough for niner.
Hey I posted evidence, Most people would accept an article from Lance Armstrongs website, I then posted some studies ( its not like they are easy to find) What is more than abundant though is 100's of articles written by experts more qualified than Ninerbuff. The fact of the matter is nothing I do is good enough for niner, he comes here to argue, just look at the Tim Tebow thread. He will keep going and going until they just give up.Burden of proof is on you, not me. I shouldn't have to prove your stance. In case you don't know what that means here is the definition:
the duty of proving a disputed assertion or charge
This seems to be a totally lost concept on these boards, the burden of proof falls on the original claim maker. Yet people get all pissy when asked to substantiate their claim with something more then anecdotal evidence
Also could you show me were I can find the guidelines of this board?? I didnt see were it said the burden of proof falls on the original claim. And in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with niner asking for proof, but he should also return the favor when the same is asked of him,
Sorry Livestrong doesn't count as evidence. Articles without references also aren't really evidence either, regardless of author.
And it's not in the guidelines of these board, it is how argument and debate works. Someone makes the initial claim, the burden of proof falls on them to substantiate it. After it's substantiated then you can get to making the person making the counter claim substantiate their position
Here it is again:
http://getfitguy.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time.aspx
What Do Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies Tell Us?
In a situation like this, the best place to turn is science, which can tell us whether something that seems to be impossible may actually be possible.
One study from California State University tracked a group of healthy men for eight weeks. The men ate a lot of food--over 4000 calories a day--and did weight training four days a week for 60-90 minutes. The men gained an average of six pounds of muscle, but also gained ½ pound of fat. In another study, men also trained with weights several times a week, but this time, they ate just a little over 2000 calories a day. This group gained 2.5 pounds of muscle and lost over 7 pounds of fat!
What About Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies with Women?
A similar set of studies were done on women. Women who performed weight training workouts for eight weeks, but didn’t diet, added 2.4 pounds of muscle, but didn’t lose much fat. In the same study, a group of women who dieted added a pound of muscle over the same time frame, but lost a significant amount of fat
You're not very good with this kinda stuff are you? That link you posted has no references and if i'm reading it correctly he is talking about 2 separate studies using two different sets of men. There is nothing that says the men in the 2nd study were eating in a caloric deficit. And I did a quick search on pubmed and couldn't find the study they referenced.
And single studies do little, the bulk of the evidence should point towards the point that you're trying to prove.0 -
Niner basicly said the same thing so here is my response. (maybe you can answer my quetion?)
Niner basicly said the same thing so here is my response.
I tried that aswell, again not good enough for niner.
Hey I posted evidence, Most people would accept an article from Lance Armstrongs website, I then posted some studies ( its not like they are easy to find) What is more than abundant though is 100's of articles written by experts more qualified than Ninerbuff. The fact of the matter is nothing I do is good enough for niner, he comes here to argue, just look at the Tim Tebow thread. He will keep going and going until they just give up.Burden of proof is on you, not me. I shouldn't have to prove your stance. In case you don't know what that means here is the definition:
the duty of proving a disputed assertion or charge
This seems to be a totally lost concept on these boards, the burden of proof falls on the original claim maker. Yet people get all pissy when asked to substantiate their claim with something more then anecdotal evidence
Also could you show me were I can find the guidelines of this board?? I didnt see were it said the burden of proof falls on the original claim. And in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with niner asking for proof, but he should also return the favor when the same is asked of him,
Sorry Livestrong doesn't count as evidence. Articles without references also aren't really evidence either, regardless of author.
And it's not in the guidelines of these board, it is how argument and debate works. Someone makes the initial claim, the burden of proof falls on them to substantiate it. After it's substantiated then you can get to making the person making the counter claim substantiate their position
Here it is again:
http://getfitguy.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time.aspx
What Do Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies Tell Us?
In a situation like this, the best place to turn is science, which can tell us whether something that seems to be impossible may actually be possible.
One study from California State University tracked a group of healthy men for eight weeks. The men ate a lot of food--over 4000 calories a day--and did weight training four days a week for 60-90 minutes. The men gained an average of six pounds of muscle, but also gained ½ pound of fat. In another study, men also trained with weights several times a week, but this time, they ate just a little over 2000 calories a day. This group gained 2.5 pounds of muscle and lost over 7 pounds of fat!
What About Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies with Women?
A similar set of studies were done on women. Women who performed weight training workouts for eight weeks, but didn’t diet, added 2.4 pounds of muscle, but didn’t lose much fat. In the same study, a group of women who dieted added a pound of muscle over the same time frame, but lost a significant amount of fat
The people in the study ate 2,000 per day lost weight and gained muscle which you have claimed was impossible, If your saying that you can lose weight while not at a deficit then maybe I am wrong and was eating at a surplus but still lost weight 83 lbs over the past year. ( I didnt think it was possible to lose weight while at a surplus)
You're not very good with this kinda stuff are you? That link you posted has no references and if i'm reading it correctly he is talking about 2 separate studies using two different sets of men. There is nothing that says the men in the 2nd study were eating in a caloric deficit. And I did a quick search on pubmed and couldn't find the study they referenced.
And single studies do little, the bulk of the evidence should point towards the point that you're trying to prove.
The people in the study ate 2,000 per day lost weight and gained muscle which you have claimed was impossible, If your saying that you can lose weight while not at a deficit then maybe I am wrong and was eating at a surplus but still lost weight 83 lbs over the past year. ( I didnt think it was possible to lose weight while at a surplus???)
Also I guess you didnt see the study on the 2 sets of women so here it is again.
''''''''''''''''''The Most Interesting Finding
But perhaps most interesting is a study of fourteen women who were on a significantly small, 800 calorie, high protein diet. Seven of the women lifted weights for 30-40 minutes three days a week, and the other seven women dieted but did not weigh train. Both groups of women lost 33 pounds, but the group that weight lifted actually increased their lean muscle mass by 6 percent, whereas the women that did not lift weights lost muscle along with the fat.
So now we’ve learned that if you want to lose fat and build muscle at the same time, you can even do it when you’re dieting, but you have to lift weights!"""""""""""""0 -
I gained plenty of muscle while dropping 150lbs over 8 months. I lift significantly more weight now.
I did this on a 1200-1500 cal 150-250 protein diet for a majority of the time. I did do refeeds to keep metabolism regulated and normalized. In actuallity with the cardio I was eating 500-700 NET cals most days.
Does gain a lot slower during deficit. Seems effortless atm eating 4k+ a day to build/recover. Takes several days to recover and weeks to build on the deficit compared to days on refeed/bulk.
Dunno what else to say. Results may vary? Heh. Believe me when I say this- I have motivated quite a few people I know to hopon and theyre doing great as well. People i work with or meet while working ask about how I did it so fast and seemed so full of energy and in good spirits while depriving myself of carbs. On a budget- no less! ( i spend less than 200 a month on food and supplements. ) im a courier so its a physically demanding job.
My fathers 60 and diabetic and lost 45lbs the last few months half assing it. /shrug0 -
Lol, we've already gone over this. It's not disputed, however like your "study" (with no abstract) the percentage of muscle gained is small in the exceptions of the types of people we discussed (obese/overweight, athlete, newbie). Second law of thermodynamics + entropy covers this.
Niner if what you are claiming is true it would also be impossible for a person, regardless of being a newbie, just getting back into lifting or even over weight to gain any muscle at all while on a defict. regardless of how smail the gain.
No, if there is a difference of opinion then there's a difference of opinion. Your stance isn't opinion, you're saying it's doable and factual and disregards what other clinical studies have shown not to be true.Ok so your sayin that anyone that has a difference of opinion than you has the burden of proof but you shouldnt have to provide any proof to support your opinion? How about studies that prove me wrong?
As to the studies that prove you wrong, let's start with the basics: Laws of Thermodynamics
The First Law basically says that energy or matter can neither be created nor destroyed. In terms of the machine, this meant that the total energy output (work by the machine) is equal to the heat supplied. In other words, the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the heat added to the system minus the work done by the system. Because the system operates in the real world, some energy always escapes into the outside world, thus leading to both inefficiency and the Second Law, which was generated to cover the so-called flaw in the First Law.
The Second Law essentially says that it is impossible to obtain a process where the unique effect is the subtraction of a positive heat from a reservoir and the production of a positive work. Energy exhibits entropy. It moves away form its source. In this sense, energy or heat cannot flow form a colder body to a hotter body. You cannot keep a continual flow of heat to work to heat to work without adding energy to the system. In machine terms, you have to add energy to get more work, and the ratio of heat to work will never equal 100% due to energy expanding away from its source.
The Third Law explains this further. It says that all processes cease as temperature approaches absolute zero. This is the temperature at which molecules cease movement, cease producing kinetic energy. In other words, there is no energy.
You cannot create something from nothing.
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Waiting for the studies that support your opinion.
A.C.E. Certified Personal & Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
You stated to put on 1 inch on your arms requires a 10lbs muscle gain. That's pretty significant because even Pro and amateur bodybuilders, who are enhanced, would love for that to happen, yet you stated you were able to do it without bulking up and also while on calorie deficit.Second, I never said a half inch or an inch were huge gains.
Just needed to remind you in case you did forget that you did post it.To gain one inch in arm size you need to gain atleast 10 lbs of lean muscle. And since I started working out even though I got rid of most of the fat in my arms I still gained over 1.5 inches in both of my arms.
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Anecdotal evidence for some is "real evidence".This seems to be a totally lost concept on these boards, the burden of proof falls on the original claim maker. Yet people get all pissy when asked to substantiate their claim with something more then anecdotal evidence
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Most people don't do actual research and take the word of people they seem to trust. I don't. If I did, I'd still be making the claim you are about gaining significant muscle on calorie deficit.Hey I posted evidence, Most people would accept an article from Lance Armstrongs website,
If they are "easy to find" then you should have no issue posting a copy of the link and abstract.I then posted some studies ( its not like they are easy to find)
Articles aren't evidence. Kevin Trudeau wrote a best seller on "Natural Cures". He's claimed to be an expert. Would you believe that cancer can be cured by changing the cells to alkaline in the body. How many medical journals of study do you think agree with it?What is more than abundant though is 100's of articles written by experts more qualified than Ninerbuff.
Strawman argument. I debate issues that don't provide correct information. Bad information shouldn't be passed on.The fact of the matter is nothing I do is good enough for niner, he comes here to argue, just look at the Tim Tebow thread.http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/372688-tim-tebow
Actually most quit when they have no evidence to refute.He will keep going and going until they just give up.
Burden of proof is used in debating. That's what we're doing here on the subject at hand. You made the original claim. I refuted your claim. It's now on you to actually show proof to your claim. So far all you've shown is pictures and posted articles with NO LINK or ABSTRACT to study. So in essence, we still have nothing to look at.Also could you show me were I can find the guidelines of this board?? I didnt see were it said the burden of proof falls on the original claim. And in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with niner asking for proof, but he should also return the favor when the same is asked of him
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So essentially the people who are probably already close to where they want to be need an excess. The people who have already put in the effort and work and changed their habits... cant gain significant muscle on a deficit. The ones that are already well knowledged or being coached and paying someone to do it for them. Well. Duh. For the rest of us above 10% bfat its probably doable and being done already. Just slowly. Great information. We can store months of energy. Wouldnt exactly call the 26 lbs of fat im lugging around as "nothing."
Btw who did you NOT list in exceptions? Lol.0 -
Where's the links and abstract? Again all this is "claimed" but if it was an actual study, there would be an abstract. Please post the abstract or a link to it at the very least. If you can't, then this is just another article of opinion.Niner basicly said the same thing so here is my response. (maybe you can answer my quetion?)
The people in the study ate 2,000 per day lost weight and gained muscle which you have claimed was impossible, If your saying that you can lose weight while not at a deficit then maybe I am wrong and was eating at a surplus but still lost weight 83 lbs over the past year. ( I didnt think it was possible to lose weight while at a surplus???)
Also I guess you didnt see the study on the 2 sets of women so here it is again.
''''''''''''''''''The Most Interesting Finding
But perhaps most interesting is a study of fourteen women who were on a significantly small, 800 calorie, high protein diet. Seven of the women lifted weights for 30-40 minutes three days a week, and the other seven women dieted but did not weigh train. Both groups of women lost 33 pounds, but the group that weight lifted actually increased their lean muscle mass by 6 percent, whereas the women that did not lift weights lost muscle along with the fat.
So now we’ve learned that if you want to lose fat and build muscle at the same time, you can even do it when you’re dieting, but you have to lift weights!"""""""""""""
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So you were in the obese/very overweight exception of people who gained on calorie deficit.I gained plenty of muscle while dropping 150lbs over 8 months. I lift significantly more weight now.
I did this on a 1200-1500 cal 150-250 protein diet for a majority of the time. I did do refeeds to keep metabolism regulated and normalized. In actuallity with the cardio I was eating 500-700 NET cals most days.
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Here's a link to a CLINICAL STUDY to show that lean body weight can be maintained while in calorie deficit, but that no significant lean muscle was built. Yes there was exercise involved.I also found another article that used a study done by UConn. (storr) as a reference but I couldnt find the actual study.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/47/1/19.short
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The exact groups of people that I Iintended this thread for!! And remember in my study, the subjects only resistance trained for 15 minutes per day. I doubt I would have gained any muscle If I only lifted for 15 minutes per day.
Lol, we've already gone over this. It's not disputed, however like your "study" (with no abstract) the percentage of muscle gained is small in the exceptions of the types of people we discussed (obese/overweight, athlete, newbie). Second law of thermodynamics + entropy covers this.
Niner if what you are claiming is true it would also be impossible for a person, regardless of being a newbie, just getting back into lifting or even over weight to gain any muscle at all while on a defict. regardless of how smail the gain.
No, if there is a difference of opinion then there's a difference of opinion. Your stance isn't opinion, you're saying it's doable and factual and disregards what other clinical studies have shown not to be true.Ok so your sayin that anyone that has a difference of opinion than you has the burden of proof but you shouldnt have to provide any proof to support your opinion? How about studies that prove me wrong?
As to the studies that prove you wrong, let's start with the basics: Laws of Thermodynamics
The First Law basically says that energy or matter can neither be created nor destroyed. In terms of the machine, this meant that the total energy output (work by the machine) is equal to the heat supplied. In other words, the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the heat added to the system minus the work done by the system. Because the system operates in the real world, some energy always escapes into the outside world, thus leading to both inefficiency and the Second Law, which was generated to cover the so-called flaw in the First Law.
The Second Law essentially says that it is impossible to obtain a process where the unique effect is the subtraction of a positive heat from a reservoir and the production of a positive work. Energy exhibits entropy. It moves away form its source. In this sense, energy or heat cannot flow form a colder body to a hotter body. You cannot keep a continual flow of heat to work to heat to work without adding energy to the system. In machine terms, you have to add energy to get more work, and the ratio of heat to work will never equal 100% due to energy expanding away from its source.
The Third Law explains this further. It says that all processes cease as temperature approaches absolute zero. This is the temperature at which molecules cease movement, cease producing kinetic energy. In other words, there is no energy.
You cannot create something from nothing.
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Waiting for the studies that support your opinion.
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You either are spinning your butt off or playing dumb!! My Dr. who is a board certified physician and has worked out his entire life, was the person responsible for getting me to start working out, because of being on HB. and Col. meds I had blood and urine work done every 3 months, ( my goal was to get off the meds and stay off) so as I exercised, dropped the weight and ate healthy he reduced my meds and finally took me off them, The enitre time I kept bugging him to test my T- levels aswell because all I kept seeing on TV. was when men hit my age their T-levels keep dropping etc. etc.. He finally gave in, but not after telling me time after time, that my T-levels were fine because if they were not where they should be for a white male my age, there is no way I could put on the amount of muscle I had. ( turns out he was right and I was worried about nothing) and it wasnt like he was shocked that I gained muscle while on a deficit.
You stated to put on 1 inch on your arms requires a 10lbs muscle gain. That's pretty significant because even Pro and amateur bodybuilders, who are enhanced, would love for that to happen, yet you stated you were able to do it without bulking up and also while on calorie deficit.Second, I never said a half inch or an inch were huge gains.
Just needed to remind you in case you did forget that you did post it.To gain one inch in arm size you need to gain atleast 10 lbs of lean muscle. And since I started working out even though I got rid of most of the fat in my arms I still gained over 1.5 inches in both of my arms.
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second, (and you know this) A newbie on a surplus can gain 25-30lbs of muscle during their first year, where as a seasoned body builder is lucky to put on 10lbs of new muscle. (but keep playing dumb or better yet call Sally Struthers and ask her for your money back for the certification courses you took)
Now I shouldnt even mention this, (since your so amazed by my arms getting bigger) but when I started working out, (+ 83 lbs) I could wrap my hand around either one of my forearms a couple inches above my wrist and touch my thumb and middle finger together, now there is about an inch of space in between my thumb and middle finger. (-83 lbs)0 -
Congrads!! Its funny how the longer this thread goes that the more people post about their own success about gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time!!!I gained plenty of muscle while dropping 150lbs over 8 months. I lift significantly more weight now.
I did this on a 1200-1500 cal 150-250 protein diet for a majority of the time. I did do refeeds to keep metabolism regulated and normalized. In actuallity with the cardio I was eating 500-700 NET cals most days.
Does gain a lot slower during deficit. Seems effortless atm eating 4k+ a day to build/recover. Takes several days to recover and weeks to build on the deficit compared to days on refeed/bulk.
Dunno what else to say. Results may vary? Heh. Believe me when I say this- I have motivated quite a few people I know to hopon and theyre doing great as well. People i work with or meet while working ask about how I did it so fast and seemed so full of energy and in good spirits while depriving myself of carbs. On a budget- no less! ( i spend less than 200 a month on food and supplements. ) im a courier so its a physically demanding job.
My fathers 60 and diabetic and lost 45lbs the last few months half assing it. /shrug0 -
Lean muscle was built!! And please inform me of what each of the subjects weight was at the start of of the study,what was their calorie deficit during the study, how many grams of protein per day did each subject consume and also what was their wrokout program/ split? Not trying to be like you, but atleast in my study, they provided the amount of calories each subject consumed every day and that they only did resistance exercise for 15 minutes per day.
Here's a link to a CLINICAL STUDY to show that lean body weight can be maintained while in calorie deficit, but that no significant lean muscle was built. Yes there was exercise involved.I also found another article that used a study done by UConn. (storr) as a reference but I couldnt find the actual study.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/47/1/19.short
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