Building Muscle vs. Losing Weight

There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.

All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.

There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.

All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.

Body builders who compete (and do it with enhancement) CAN'T add muscle on calorie deficit. In fact they LOSE it even with all the protein (and they eat loads of it) they ingest. If they can't even with enhancement, what makes you think the average person can without it?
While there are a few people with a certain position that can do, even for them the gain is minimal at best.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I don't mean to be argumentative in my reply, but is there anything other than anecdotal proof of this? As tigerswords says, muscle can't be produced from glucose or the intermediary storage glycogen, but if your diet includes enough protein for conversion to myosin/actin/etc for growth and other required fuel, why can't the oxidised fat be used to re-stock the muscles and other body parts with glucose while the protein is used to re-build broken down muscle?

Surely if you stick to your maintenance (including BMR and other exercise), you will still gain muscle. it's a fact that your body can't store energy it doesn't use other than in fat. A lot of what I've read says you should eat over maintenance to gain muscle, which makes no sense as maintenance includes the actual calories required to build muscle.

I suppose there might be reason for eating over maintenance to ensure you have headspace in case you under estimate your calories, but logically there is no reason to not stick to the energy your body needs.

Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.

Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.

You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.

Whooooa...hold on a second.

You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.

Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!

I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.

:grumble: :laugh:

Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.

You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.

Whooooa...hold on a second.

You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.

Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!

I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.

:grumble: :laugh:

Chris, No its not, I didnt alternate, I ate the same amount of calories each and every day, I set my macros were I would lose 1lb per week, some weeks I lost 2, (though I didnt try it) From 287 lbs to 8% BF. and 204lbs I was eating at a deficit. There is no way a 42 year old man can lose 83 lbs in 13 months by not eating at a deficit.

The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.

Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.

You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.

Whooooa...hold on a second.

You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.

Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!

I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.

:grumble: :laugh:

Chris, No its not, I didnt alternate, I ate the same amount of calories each and every day, I set my macros were I would lose 1lb per week, some weeks I lost 2, (though I didnt try it) From 287 lbs to 8% BF. and 204lbs I was eating at a deficit. There is no way a 42 year old man can lose 83 lbs in 13 months by not eating at a deficit.

Soooo...what did this mean???

The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.

Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.

You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.

Whooooa...hold on a second.

You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.

Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!

I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.

:grumble: :laugh:

Chris, No its not, I didnt alternate, I ate the same amount of calories each and every day, I set my macros were I would lose 1lb per week, some weeks I lost 2, (though I didnt try it) From 287 lbs to 8% BF. and 204lbs I was eating at a deficit. There is no way a 42 year old man can lose 83 lbs in 13 months by not eating at a deficit.

Soooo...what did this mean???

The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.

It means I used the scale every week to tell me if I was at a deficit ir not? and adjuste my Calories once a month accordingly. By the way did Alan Aragon get back to you yet??????????? Or Didn't YOU like his answer?????????? :laugh: :laugh:

I didn't send the PM yet...not because I don't want to (I will...I'm always interested, with a far more open mind than you might think lol). It's just that I want my thoughts on it more ordered than they are, and I've had a lot going on.

Back on topic...that's an interesting way to say it...but now that I know what you mean I can make sense of it. I don't think anyone else would have taken it that way either.

Interesting method.

There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.

All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.

Body builders who compete (and do it with enhancement) CAN'T add muscle on calorie deficit. In fact they LOSE it even with all the protein (and they eat loads of it) they ingest. If they can't even with enhancement, what makes you think the average person can without it?
While there are a few people with a certain position that can do, even for them the gain is minimal at best.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I don't mean to be argumentative in my reply, but is there anything other than anecdotal proof of this? As tigerswords says, muscle can't be produced from glucose or the intermediary storage glycogen, but if your diet includes enough protein for conversion to myosin/actin/etc for growth and other required fuel, why can't the oxidised fat be used to re-stock the muscles and other body parts with glucose while the protein is used to re-build broken down muscle?

Surely if you stick to your maintenance (including BMR and other exercise), you will still gain muscle. it's a fact that your body can't store energy it doesn't use other than in fat. A lot of what I've read says you should eat over maintenance to gain muscle, which makes no sense as maintenance includes the actual calories required to build muscle.

I suppose there might be reason for eating over maintenance to ensure you have headspace in case you under estimate your calories, but logically there is no reason to not stick to the energy your body needs.

Logically it would make sense that the body SHOULD just use calories in storage and no weight gain occur even if the intake is very low. So why is it that people on exercising and only netting 400 hundred calorie total for a day don't lose weight? The body's sole purpose is just to survive based on environmental stimulus. If it notices calorie deficit, hormonal changes dictate how energy is used. You're looking at it as if ALL protein ingested is being used for muscle when it isn't because if that was the case, then anyone who just eats high protein would practically gain muscle with no effort. And it' NOT a fact that your body CAN'T store energy other than fat. Glucose is an energy store and is stored in the muscle and liver.
Explanations have been posted. Examples and "real life" comparisons aren't explained by your theory. Again if what you stated made perfect sense, then there should be thousands of people on calorie deficits building muscle with no issue and that's simply not the case. It's okay to be wrong....................

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Ha! This is where I get to plug my favorite read on all this debated hoop la .. Burn The Fat, Feed The Muscle by Tom Venuto. There IS perfectly sound science to why you can't make gains in a deficit .. but the read is 300+ pages and well worth it.

I still see no sound evidence to be honest, but I'll happily accept that there is belief that on a deficit you can't gain a large quantity of muscle, but I still do not understand the need for a calorie excess. Why give the body more that it needs to live, grow and survive. All you do is end up fat surely? The bulk/cut/bulk is engrained into the mentality of everyone in the industry when realistically I see no evidence to support the need to put on excess fat to gain muscle.

It's ok to think differently.......

Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.

You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.

Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.

You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.

I see your point, and in all fairness I will admit that over the course of about three years and 50lbs of weight loss that I have almost always been at a deficit (as determined by typical maintenance calculators) and gained mass; however, I attribute these to newbie gains. In addition, my deficits were not the same as they are now ... I had clean low days mixed in with LOTS of cheat days and drinking binges It would be fair to say that until I was educated I employed an impromptu zig-zag method .. lol. At this point in my training there are simply no more newbie gains to be had and I know that I will either have to follow a traditional cut/clean bulk (as opposed to eating anything and everything) style of training or learn some pretty complicated zig-zag/carb cycling methods if I want to gain significant mass and keep the BF in the 8-12% range.

I would also like to kick in that I learned more about about getting a lean and muscular physique when I started following fitness models more, as opposed to 'bodybuilders'. These guys appear to be much more into lean gains and have mastered staying cut and strong all year long, IMO. It's a bit of a paradigm shift that might be better for the average Joe ...

In theory, even at maintenance you can't put on mass, if you're more experienced. What about above maintenance?
(talking about on a ketogenic diet)

Chris or anyone else, I would love for someone to point out just one MFP. member out of the thousands of success stories on this site that did not lift during their weight loss or have visable abs prior to gaining their weight, but did once they dropped their weight. Just one example. It shouldnt be that hard considering we gain so much muscle just by being lazy, eating bad, getting fat and carrying it around for a while. Thanks,