Good news for people who like eating fat!
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jissn.com/content/11/1/7
LolBroScience here is a hyperlink for your first reference, Metabolic adaptation to weight loss: implications for the athlete. I take it you have not read it since you posted evidence that scientifically explains the typical failure and health risks associated with 'calorie deficient' dieting. While the article is more about jocks than obese type I agree with you that the science applies to both groups. Below are some clips directly from the source you supplied.
The article states in part,
"Results from a number of studies indicate a general endocrine response to hypocaloric diets (calorie deficit) that promotes increased hunger, reduces metabolic rate, and threatens the maintenance of lean mass.
Further, there is evidence to suggest that unfavorable changes in circulating hormone levels persist as subjects attempt to maintain a reduced body weight, even after the cessation of active weight loss.
Adaptive thermogenesis may help to partially explain the increasing difficulty experienced when weight loss plateaus despite low caloric intake, and the common propensity to regain weight after weight loss.
There is evidence to suggest that spontaneous physical activity, a component of NEAT, is decreased in energy restricted subjects, and may remain suppressed for some time after subjects return to ad libitum feeding [29]. Persistent suppression of NEAT may contribute to weight regain in the post-diet period.
In the context of weight loss or maintaining a reduced body weight, this process is complicated by the dynamic nature of energy expenditure. In response to weight loss, reductions in TDEE, BMR, EAT, NEAT, and TEF are observed. Due to adaptive thermogenesis, TDEE is lowered to an extent that exceeds the magnitude predicted by losses in body mass.
Further, research indicates that adaptive thermogenesis and decreased energy expenditure persist after the active weight loss period, even in subjects who have maintained a reduced body weight for over a year [14,48]. These changes serve to minimize the energy deficit, attenuate further loss of body mass, and promote weight regain in weight-reduced subjects.
In the context of energy restriction, the observed changes are likely to make weight loss increasingly challenging and promote weight regain.
In the period shortly after cessation of a restrictive diet, body mass often reverts toward pre-diet values [29,74,75]. This body mass is preferentially gained as fat mass, in a phenomenon known as post-starvation obesity [29].
Therefore, athletes who aggressively diet for a competitive season and rapidly regain weight may find it more challenging to achieve optimal body composition in subsequent seasons.
As these athletes create an energy deficit and achieve lower body fat levels, their weight loss efforts will be counteracted by a number of metabolic adaptations that may persist throughout weight maintenance.
Changes in energy expenditure, mitochondrial efficiency, and circulating hormone concentrations work in concert to attenuate further weight loss and promote the restoration of baseline body mass."
I suggest anyone interested in LolBroScience's above position on "just cut the calories to lose weight and keep it off" may be Defunct In The Abstract to read the full article to understand why we who have repeatedly tried 'Deficient Dieting' plateaued on dropping weight then within a 10 years or even 10 months were just as heavy as before dieting.
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I've lost 20lbs and have kept it off for 5 years. By lifting, eating at a deficit. Been maintaining my current weight for the last 2 years or so.0
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I think a bit of butter, olive oil is good but I never trust all these theories as they have gone back and forth on coffee, chocolate etc so many times. I try to do things in moderation and to focus on fruit , vegetable with a bit of meat each day. My Mom grew up on almost no meat and she is in her 90's, very healthy.0
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herrspoon there is no comparing of athletes to the general populace so do not knock LolBroScience for his link supporting his position.
The research that LolBroScience provided related to the weakness and health related issues that are inherent with Deficient Dieting for anyone.-1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »jissn.com/content/11/1/7
LolBroScience here is a hyperlink for your first reference, Metabolic adaptation to weight loss: implications for the athlete. I take it you have not read it since you posted evidence that scientifically explains the typical failure and health risks associated with 'calorie deficient' dieting. While the article is more about jocks than obese type I agree with you that the science applies to both groups. Below are some clips directly from the source you supplied.
The article states in part,
"Results from a number of studies indicate a general endocrine response to hypocaloric diets (calorie deficit) that promotes increased hunger, reduces metabolic rate, and threatens the maintenance of lean mass.
Further, there is evidence to suggest that unfavorable changes in circulating hormone levels persist as subjects attempt to maintain a reduced body weight, even after the cessation of active weight loss.
Adaptive thermogenesis may help to partially explain the increasing difficulty experienced when weight loss plateaus despite low caloric intake, and the common propensity to regain weight after weight loss.
There is evidence to suggest that spontaneous physical activity, a component of NEAT, is decreased in energy restricted subjects, and may remain suppressed for some time after subjects return to ad libitum feeding [29]. Persistent suppression of NEAT may contribute to weight regain in the post-diet period.
In the context of weight loss or maintaining a reduced body weight, this process is complicated by the dynamic nature of energy expenditure. In response to weight loss, reductions in TDEE, BMR, EAT, NEAT, and TEF are observed. Due to adaptive thermogenesis, TDEE is lowered to an extent that exceeds the magnitude predicted by losses in body mass.
Further, research indicates that adaptive thermogenesis and decreased energy expenditure persist after the active weight loss period, even in subjects who have maintained a reduced body weight for over a year [14,48]. These changes serve to minimize the energy deficit, attenuate further loss of body mass, and promote weight regain in weight-reduced subjects.
In the context of energy restriction, the observed changes are likely to make weight loss increasingly challenging and promote weight regain.
In the period shortly after cessation of a restrictive diet, body mass often reverts toward pre-diet values [29,74,75]. This body mass is preferentially gained as fat mass, in a phenomenon known as post-starvation obesity [29].
Therefore, athletes who aggressively diet for a competitive season and rapidly regain weight may find it more challenging to achieve optimal body composition in subsequent seasons.
As these athletes create an energy deficit and achieve lower body fat levels, their weight loss efforts will be counteracted by a number of metabolic adaptations that may persist throughout weight maintenance.
Changes in energy expenditure, mitochondrial efficiency, and circulating hormone concentrations work in concert to attenuate further weight loss and promote the restoration of baseline body mass."
I suggest anyone interested in LolBroScience's above position on "just cut the calories to lose weight and keep it off" may be Defunct In The Abstract to read the full article to understand why we who have repeatedly tried 'Deficient Dieting' plateaued on dropping weight then within a 10 years or even 10 months were just as heavy as before dieting.
Gale, I specifically chose those studies for a common theme. I'm not looking at it from the adaptive thermogensis point of view. Your main argument was the fact that you, and other individuals are able to add substantial lean body mass while in a caloric deficit.
They all focused on the preservation of lean body mass while in a caloric deficit, or made mention to that fact that you would need to be in a hypercaloric state for hypertrophy to occur.
I mean read the first bolded sentence? "Threatens the maintenance of lean mass...".
Do you not think that if these highly trained individuals under the supervision of some of the greatest coaches in the world are able to gain lean body mass while in a caloric deficit... it would not have circulated on a mass scale? These people eat, sleep, and breathe training, nutrition, and recovery.
You're going to sit here and tell me you are not only defying basic science, but you are also smarter than those who are handling the training and nutrition of elite, professional, and Olympic athletes whose sole purpose is based on performance. You are also training at a capacity which is far above the individuals in these studies who were not able to gain LBM while in a deficit? At age 63, with lower hormonal levels, far less dietary adherence, and a lower level of intensity you have defied all of the above?0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »shadesofidaho wrote: »Thank you - that's great information! I'll hold off for now - I'm still about 30-35% bg - I have about 35 more lbs to lose before I make any changes. I do know this - I will not go back to eating sugar/wheat. Stevia and Almond flour are my new best friends!
Volfan 22. You are using Stevia. You do not think that is a problem to raise insulin resistance? Please say NO. I am so missing my sweet.
Oh and your photos are fantastic. Way to go.
Thank you Chris
empoweredsustenance.com/is-stevia-bad-for-you/
Chris your post raised some questions and I read the above link. The comments indicated to me there is LITTLE agreement about Stevia today. I got some whey protein with stevia in it at WM a couple weeks ago and it was too sweet to me but I am kind of an all or nothing type. When I decided to stop all added sugar that meant real and no calorie sweeteners as well in my case. Now even the little sugar in almonds make them taste sweet. I did not ditch carbs to lose weight but to manage my arthritic pain avoiding a cancer risk from Enbrel. Going low carb is about staying alive not my looks that is already shot to heck.
Jonathan Bailor states in his The Calorie Myth that he thinks Stevia is OK from his research that I just read.
Again thank your post.
Thanks Gail Hawkins, It still is a bit confusing but I am working on it. I was also reading about glycerin and from my research it does add to the daily carb amount.
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Gale, before you reply again...
Let me clarify further... My responses were a bit muddy at parts and I should have applied more context in my replies at some points...so for that, my fault and I apologize. I never said it was impossible to gain LBM while in a deficit. I gave criteria for obese/fat, untrained /undertrained, or retraining being exemptions.
My issue was with you in particular as I've stated. What I said was that I do not believe YOU are adding SUBSTANTIAL LBM while in a caloric deficit, nor do a believe a woman eating 1400 calories per day is (that is probably right around her BMR). I even said she might've had a SMALL amount of hypertrophy from newbie gains, but the bulk of the strength gains being a result or neuromuscular adaptations; and the "more noticeable muscle" as a result of reduced body fat levels.
Additional factors are working against both of you: age, gender, a reduced amount of certain hormones (namely testosterone), etc. I don't believe that either are training hard enough for those changes to occur on a substantial level either. That is me being honest, not mean.
I used the studies of athletes who train very hard under controlled circumstances to compare against you. In only one of the studies was there an increase of LBM while in a deficit, and as I pointed it it was only about .6kg. It just so happened to be the individual that had the most fat and least training experience.
If they were not gaining substantial LBM in a deficit with training and nutrition that is on point... I doubt you are. Again, just me being honest and not trying to be mean.
NOW, science is constantly evolving. However, I have yet to come across any studies that show substantial increases in LBM in trained individuals. If I do come across them, I would view them with objectively with an open mind. However, I do believe that if it was an optimal approach (trying to achieve LBM gains in a deficit) more emphasis would be placed on it on more of a mass scale, as opposed to the emphasis being focused on simply preserving lean mass while in a deficit.0 -
shadesofidaho wrote: »Thanks Gail Hawkins, It still is a bit confusing but I am working on it. I was also reading about glycerin and from my research it does add to the daily carb amount.
quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/healthy-eating/is-glycerin-a-healthy-sweetener
Well glycerin as a sweetener is a new one on me but I did just read the above. All of this can be so confusing. Yesterday when LolBroScience posted the link awesome link about the dangers eating fewer calories than you need as we all have done was an eye opener as to why most people are better off not to even diet if we do not understand the full picture. The body is really an amazing work of art.
Two months ago when I gave sugar and most carbs the boot that applied to any and all sweeteners so now I just try to avoid foods with them when possible. After totally ditching sugar I lost the sugar/sweet craving but I am going to read more about.
There is a lot of new research going on about dieting that I look forward to reading about next year hopefully.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »shadesofidaho wrote: »Thanks Gail Hawkins, It still is a bit confusing but I am working on it. I was also reading about glycerin and from my research it does add to the daily carb amount.
quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/healthy-eating/is-glycerin-a-healthy-sweetener
Well glycerin as a sweetener is a new one on me but I did just read the above. All of this can be so confusing. Yesterday when LolBroScience posted the link awesome link about the dangers eating fewer calories than you need as we all have done was an eye opener as to why most people are better off not to even diet if we do not understand the full picture. The body is really an amazing work of art.
Two months ago when I gave sugar and most carbs the boot that applied to any and all sweeteners so now I just try to avoid foods with them when possible. After totally ditching sugar I lost the sugar/sweet craving but I am going to read more about.
There is a lot of new research going on about dieting that I look forward to reading about next year hopefully.
You're not dieting down into the single digits of body fat. Did you not read anything else that I mentioned? It seems as if you missed my entire point and just decided to read or hear what you wanted.0 -
Lol. Don't let him get to you brother. It's just not worth it. He's not even bothering to read your stuffLolBroScience wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »shadesofidaho wrote: »Thanks Gail Hawkins, It still is a bit confusing but I am working on it. I was also reading about glycerin and from my research it does add to the daily carb amount.
quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/healthy-eating/is-glycerin-a-healthy-sweetener
Well glycerin as a sweetener is a new one on me but I did just read the above. All of this can be so confusing. Yesterday when LolBroScience posted the link awesome link about the dangers eating fewer calories than you need as we all have done was an eye opener as to why most people are better off not to even diet if we do not understand the full picture. The body is really an amazing work of art.
Two months ago when I gave sugar and most carbs the boot that applied to any and all sweeteners so now I just try to avoid foods with them when possible. After totally ditching sugar I lost the sugar/sweet craving but I am going to read more about.
There is a lot of new research going on about dieting that I look forward to reading about next year hopefully.
You're not dieting down into the single digits of body fat. Did you not read anything else that I mentioned? It seems as if you missed my entire point and just decided to read or hear what you wanted.
agreed….0 -
Lol. Don't let him get to you brother. It's just not worth it. He's not even bothering to read your stuffLolBroScience wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »shadesofidaho wrote: »Thanks Gail Hawkins, It still is a bit confusing but I am working on it. I was also reading about glycerin and from my research it does add to the daily carb amount.
quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/healthy-eating/is-glycerin-a-healthy-sweetener
Well glycerin as a sweetener is a new one on me but I did just read the above. All of this can be so confusing. Yesterday when LolBroScience posted the link awesome link about the dangers eating fewer calories than you need as we all have done was an eye opener as to why most people are better off not to even diet if we do not understand the full picture. The body is really an amazing work of art.
Two months ago when I gave sugar and most carbs the boot that applied to any and all sweeteners so now I just try to avoid foods with them when possible. After totally ditching sugar I lost the sugar/sweet craving but I am going to read more about.
There is a lot of new research going on about dieting that I look forward to reading about next year hopefully.
You're not dieting down into the single digits of body fat. Did you not read anything else that I mentioned? It seems as if you missed my entire point and just decided to read or hear what you wanted.
Not to mention the fact that he thinks "quickanddirtytips" is a reputable source…0 -
Lol. Don't let him get to you brother. It's just not worth it. He's not even bothering to read your stuffLolBroScience wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »shadesofidaho wrote: »Thanks Gail Hawkins, It still is a bit confusing but I am working on it. I was also reading about glycerin and from my research it does add to the daily carb amount.
quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/healthy-eating/is-glycerin-a-healthy-sweetener
Well glycerin as a sweetener is a new one on me but I did just read the above. All of this can be so confusing. Yesterday when LolBroScience posted the link awesome link about the dangers eating fewer calories than you need as we all have done was an eye opener as to why most people are better off not to even diet if we do not understand the full picture. The body is really an amazing work of art.
Two months ago when I gave sugar and most carbs the boot that applied to any and all sweeteners so now I just try to avoid foods with them when possible. After totally ditching sugar I lost the sugar/sweet craving but I am going to read more about.
There is a lot of new research going on about dieting that I look forward to reading about next year hopefully.
You're not dieting down into the single digits of body fat. Did you not read anything else that I mentioned? It seems as if you missed my entire point and just decided to read or hear what you wanted.
agreed….
ndj you might consider upgrading your photo so you do not look so far behind LolBroScience's new look.-1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
Lol. Don't let him get to you brother. It's just not worth it. He's not even bothering to read your stuffLolBroScience wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »shadesofidaho wrote: »Thanks Gail Hawkins, It still is a bit confusing but I am working on it. I was also reading about glycerin and from my research it does add to the daily carb amount.
quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/healthy-eating/is-glycerin-a-healthy-sweetener
Well glycerin as a sweetener is a new one on me but I did just read the above. All of this can be so confusing. Yesterday when LolBroScience posted the link awesome link about the dangers eating fewer calories than you need as we all have done was an eye opener as to why most people are better off not to even diet if we do not understand the full picture. The body is really an amazing work of art.
Two months ago when I gave sugar and most carbs the boot that applied to any and all sweeteners so now I just try to avoid foods with them when possible. After totally ditching sugar I lost the sugar/sweet craving but I am going to read more about.
There is a lot of new research going on about dieting that I look forward to reading about next year hopefully.
You're not dieting down into the single digits of body fat. Did you not read anything else that I mentioned? It seems as if you missed my entire point and just decided to read or hear what you wanted.
agreed….
ndj you might consider upgrading your photo so you do not look so far behind LolBroScience's new look.
what does that even mean????? LOL0 -
I keep telling myself I will not open this thread today.. But just when I think I got away it draws me back in.
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