Weight loss woo keeps getting worse.
Replies
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Anyway as far as Im concerned you have nothing and this is going nowhere so I'm really stepping out now, have fun with your... well whatever it is you're trying to pass off as proof or logic.19
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PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »Oh, hey! I forgot about this thread. I already posted about fat-burning ice cream in the Nutrition forum, but here ya go.
http://rebelcreamery.com
Wherein keto finally goes full potato. What a load of rubbish.
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GrumpyHeadmistress wrote: »Donuts may assist my weight loss by stopping me binging. Therefore donuts are a weight loss aid.
If you word anything carefully enough and presage it with “May” you can avoid all accountability but still draw (sometimes spurious) conclusions.
That argument is a double edged sword, don't cut yourself.
I’m doing awesome but thanks for your concern!
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Pinterest is so frustrating because you have to sort through the woo to find anything worthwhile. Then I get mad because so many people want to believe the woo.
THE WOO IS NOT REAL, PEOPLE!6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »Oh, hey! I forgot about this thread. I already posted about fat-burning ice cream in the Nutrition forum, but here ya go.
http://rebelcreamery.com
Wherein keto finally goes full potato. What a load of rubbish.
But it was good for a laugh.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »Oh, hey! I forgot about this thread. I already posted about fat-burning ice cream in the Nutrition forum, but here ya go.
http://rebelcreamery.com
Wherein keto finally goes full potato. What a load of rubbish.
Are potatoes permitted on Keto?7 -
GrumpyHeadmistress wrote: »Donuts may assist my weight loss by stopping me binging. Therefore donuts are a weight loss aid.
If you word anything carefully enough and presage it with “May” you can avoid all accountability but still draw (sometimes spurious) conclusions.
Right? Look at the daily clickbait articles about "5 Things to Eat to Get Healthy NOW!" All the bullets contain variations of "i]unnamed[/i studies have shown that i]x food or supplement[/i may help you to [sleep better, get glowing skin, jump out of bed at 4 in the morning and run].
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This is sad. There are other ways to make friends than bonding over trash talking.
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Sunnybrooke99 wrote: »This is sad. There are other ways to make friends than bonding over trash talking.
I agree. But all my friends talk trash, therefore it is the song of my people (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ
Are we just dumping doodoo woo here in this thread? Is this the diet landfill area?14 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »Oh, hey! I forgot about this thread. I already posted about fat-burning ice cream in the Nutrition forum, but here ya go.
http://rebelcreamery.com
Oh FFS. Just imagine the people eating that stuff by the gallon and then wondering why they're gaining weight.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »Oh, hey! I forgot about this thread. I already posted about fat-burning ice cream in the Nutrition forum, but here ya go.
http://rebelcreamery.com
Wherein keto finally goes full potato. What a load of rubbish.
And all anyone on their facebook page seems to care about is whether they'll come out with a dairy-free version, and where it'll be available. Nobody is challenging them on the fat-burning claim.5 -
YepItsKriss wrote: »I know that weight loss is achieved without vinegar, cinnamon, lemon, parsley and ginger.
I do not need to be smarter then doctors or scientists I just need to use common sense appropriately.
You can cling to those studies for dear life but it still doesn't change the fact that those ingredients blended in a blender and consumed before bed and nothing more has to change will result in weight loss fast.
Do you know what lipids are? Do you know what increased metabolism is? Can you put the two together and figure out what that means? Do you understand the Japanese study which is a legitimate study showed weight loss in two groups consuming vinegar over a 12 week period? Is this really rocket science? This study contradicts what you are saying and you are not coming up with anything valid to counter the study. You must think very highly of yourself to be smarter than doctors, scientists, etc. Must be nice. If you have a legit study that says otherwise, point to it and it will mean WAY more than you dropping an lol and saying it simply cant be because you said so.
If you want people to read some study you found and discuss it with you, then you are asking them to do work on a subject they might not even be interested in. You might get more engagement and conversation if you avoid insulting them. Just sayin'.
IMO, the Kondo et al study is very weak. Limitations:
1) Only measurement of CO was a pedometer. Highly unreliable and inaccurate way to measure energy expenditure.
2) Meals were not structured at all. They were free-feeding. The "subjects were instructed not to consume foods that included large quantities of vinegar." Way too open for personal interpretation since they didn't even know what dosage of vinegar they were receiving during trial. This is a damaging confounder.
3) Weight and physical measurements were only made once every 4 weeks. Subjects were only required to create a diet diary for the 3 days directly preceding the measurement day. So not only were the meals self-reported (very inaccurate), they were only recorded for 10.7% of the study days.
4) On measurement days, "the subjects were advised to continue on isocaloric diets and to maintain their accustomed degree of physical activity throughout the test period." Are these highly experienced calorie counters that can accurately maintain isocaloric diet intuitively while only logging food 10% of the time? I doubt it.
5) Given the above limitations, it is not a surprise to see huge standard deviations in Table 3.
6) 8307 steps per day is not a statistically significant difference than 7314 steps/day? I guess if your standard deviation is high enough, sure, why not.
7) No apparent effort by the researchers to estimate the subjects' energy balance. No description of pre-treatment period protocol, subject directions, data evaluation, or any results presented. Did they even know if any given individual was eating at deficit going into the study?
8) Rule #1 when I do peer review is look for any unique or extraordinary conclusions. The authors start the discussion with this: "The present study is the first to demonstrate that vinegar reduces body weight, BMI, and body fat mass in obese Japanese subjects." Nope, sorry, I would ask for a revision to this statement before passing it. This statement states causality and they have not done so beyond a reasonable doubt.
I can't provide a counter article to show that ACV does not cause weight loss in humans, because AFAIK, this is the only paper in existence that studied it and made a conclusion on it. Care to guess why?38 -
YepItsKriss wrote: »I know that weight loss is achieved without vinegar, cinnamon, lemon, parsley and ginger.
I do not need to be smarter then doctors or scientists I just need to use common sense appropriately.
You can cling to those studies for dear life but it still doesn't change the fact that those ingredients blended in a blender and consumed before bed and nothing more has to change will result in weight loss fast.
Do you know what lipids are? Do you know what increased metabolism is? Can you put the two together and figure out what that means? Do you understand the Japanese study which is a legitimate study showed weight loss in two groups consuming vinegar over a 12 week period? Is this really rocket science? This study contradicts what you are saying and you are not coming up with anything valid to counter the study. You must think very highly of yourself to be smarter than doctors, scientists, etc. Must be nice. If you have a legit study that says otherwise, point to it and it will mean WAY more than you dropping an lol and saying it simply cant be because you said so.
If you want people to read some study you found and discuss it with you, then you are asking them to do work on a subject they might not even be interested in. You might get more engagement and conversation if you avoid insulting them. Just sayin'.
IMO, the Kondo et al study is very weak. Limitations:
1) Only measurement of CO was a pedometer. Highly unreliable and inaccurate way to measure energy expenditure.
2) Meals were not structured at all. They were free-feeding. The "subjects were instructed not to consume foods that included large quantities of vinegar." Way too open for personal interpretation since they didn't even know what dosage of vinegar they were receiving during trial. This is a damaging confounder.
3) Weight and physical measurements were only made once every 4 weeks. Subjects were only required to create a diet diary for the 3 days directly preceding the measurement day. So not only were the meals self-reported (very inaccurate), they were only recorded for 10.7% of the study days.
4) On measurement days, "the subjects were advised to continue on isocaloric diets and to maintain their accustomed degree of physical activity throughout the test period." Are these highly experienced calorie counters that can accurately maintain isocaloric diet intuitively while only logging food 10% of the time? I doubt it.
5) Given the above limitations, it is not a surprise to see huge standard deviations in Table 3.
6) 8307 steps per day is not a statistically significant difference than 7314 steps/day? I guess if your standard deviation is high enough, sure, why not.
7) No apparent effort by the researchers to estimate the subjects' energy balance. No description of pre-treatment period protocol, subject directions, data evaluation, or any results presented. Did they even know if any given individual was eating at deficit going into the study?
8) Rule #1 when I do peer review is look for any unique or extraordinary conclusions. The authors start the discussion with this: "The present study is the first to demonstrate that vinegar reduces body weight, BMI, and body fat mass in obese Japanese subjects." Nope, sorry, I would ask for a revision to this statement before passing it. This statement states causality and they have not done so beyond a reasonable doubt.
I can't provide a counter article to show that ACV does not cause weight loss in humans, because AFAIK, this is the only paper in existence that studied it and made a conclusion on it. Care to guess why?
Most studies that people hold as gospel have flaws, there is no such thing as a perfect study... a great many come out favorable to the side of those who paid for them. Insulting? The TOS on this site wouldn't allow me to become insulting, being argumentative with someone who is being argumentative doesn't bother me a bit. And ty for saying you don't have a counter study... everything else is speculation until one is provided which as far I am concerned leaves me with the only point in this match. At least you came in with an intelligent response, so even though we disagree (though not completely), ty for that.28 -
PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »Oh, hey! I forgot about this thread. I already posted about fat-burning ice cream in the Nutrition forum, but here ya go.
http://rebelcreamery.com
Oh FFS. Just imagine the people eating that stuff by the gallon and then wondering why they're gaining weight.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »Oh, hey! I forgot about this thread. I already posted about fat-burning ice cream in the Nutrition forum, but here ya go.
http://rebelcreamery.com
Wherein keto finally goes full potato. What a load of rubbish.
And all anyone on their facebook page seems to care about is whether they'll come out with a dairy-free version, and where it'll be available. Nobody is challenging them on the fat-burning claim.
I just keep thinking of eating that much fat in one sitting and what it would do to my IBS. The fat in one serving of that is more than I eat in a day.1 -
RuNaRoUnDaFiEld wrote: »Obese yet can't eat over 700 calories a day
Ugh that is just the worst isn't it?
A: Help me, my calorie goal is XXXX and I cannot eat that much....I just get stuffed!
B: So, why are you dieting?
A: I'm 50 pounds overweight!
B: So, how did you become overweight?
A: I didn't pay attention to what I ate
B: So what are you eating now?
A: Kale and broccoli and boiled chicken, good foods!
B: and what kind of things did you used to eat?
A: Like pasta and ice-cream and chocolate and horrible stuff
B: Yeah okay so here is what you do, go eat enough of the stuff you used to eat until you hit your calorie goal. End the day with a chocolate bar. Have a bowl of ice-cream. Eat a handful of almonds. Clearly you are capable of eating those foods. Problem solved.
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Sunnybrooke99 wrote: »This is sad. There are other ways to make friends than bonding over trash talking.
You are kind of like that person who walks into a room full of people who are all smoking and then coughs loudly and proclaims how rude it is to smoke aren't you.
Guess you could start a love-in thread. I'll be right over later. Personally though, for now, I see value in venting and enjoy making friends with like minded people. Kind of like how if I was a smoker I might associate with other smokers and hang out for a smoke, whether you approved or not. If its not for you then don't participate. Then you can go off and feel morally superior which was most likely the entire point of your post in the first pace. So win win.33 -
YepItsKriss wrote: »I know that weight loss is achieved without vinegar, cinnamon, lemon, parsley and ginger.
I do not need to be smarter then doctors or scientists I just need to use common sense appropriately.
You can cling to those studies for dear life but it still doesn't change the fact that those ingredients blended in a blender and consumed before bed and nothing more has to change will result in weight loss fast.
Do you know what lipids are? Do you know what increased metabolism is? Can you put the two together and figure out what that means? Do you understand the Japanese study which is a legitimate study showed weight loss in two groups consuming vinegar over a 12 week period? Is this really rocket science? This study contradicts what you are saying and you are not coming up with anything valid to counter the study. You must think very highly of yourself to be smarter than doctors, scientists, etc. Must be nice. If you have a legit study that says otherwise, point to it and it will mean WAY more than you dropping an lol and saying it simply cant be because you said so.
If you want people to read some study you found and discuss it with you, then you are asking them to do work on a subject they might not even be interested in. You might get more engagement and conversation if you avoid insulting them. Just sayin'.
IMO, the Kondo et al study is very weak. Limitations:
1) Only measurement of CO was a pedometer. Highly unreliable and inaccurate way to measure energy expenditure.
2) Meals were not structured at all. They were free-feeding. The "subjects were instructed not to consume foods that included large quantities of vinegar." Way too open for personal interpretation since they didn't even know what dosage of vinegar they were receiving during trial. This is a damaging confounder.
3) Weight and physical measurements were only made once every 4 weeks. Subjects were only required to create a diet diary for the 3 days directly preceding the measurement day. So not only were the meals self-reported (very inaccurate), they were only recorded for 10.7% of the study days.
4) On measurement days, "the subjects were advised to continue on isocaloric diets and to maintain their accustomed degree of physical activity throughout the test period." Are these highly experienced calorie counters that can accurately maintain isocaloric diet intuitively while only logging food 10% of the time? I doubt it.
5) Given the above limitations, it is not a surprise to see huge standard deviations in Table 3.
6) 8307 steps per day is not a statistically significant difference than 7314 steps/day? I guess if your standard deviation is high enough, sure, why not.
7) No apparent effort by the researchers to estimate the subjects' energy balance. No description of pre-treatment period protocol, subject directions, data evaluation, or any results presented. Did they even know if any given individual was eating at deficit going into the study?
8) Rule #1 when I do peer review is look for any unique or extraordinary conclusions. The authors start the discussion with this: "The present study is the first to demonstrate that vinegar reduces body weight, BMI, and body fat mass in obese Japanese subjects." Nope, sorry, I would ask for a revision to this statement before passing it. This statement states causality and they have not done so beyond a reasonable doubt.
I can't provide a counter article to show that ACV does not cause weight loss in humans, because AFAIK, this is the only paper in existence that studied it and made a conclusion on it. Care to guess why?
Most studies that people hold as gospel have flaws, there is no such thing as a perfect study... a great many come out favorable to the side of those who paid for them. Insulting? The TOS on this site wouldn't allow me to become insulting, being argumentative with someone who is being argumentative doesn't bother me a bit. And ty for saying you don't have a counter study... everything else is speculation until one is provided which as far I am concerned leaves me with the only point in this match. At least you came in with an intelligent response, so even though we disagree (though not completely), ty for that.
There are imperfect studies, and then there are studies so methodologically deficient that they're not worth credence, other than maybe suggesting directions for future, better controlled studies.10 -
YepItsKriss wrote: »I know that weight loss is achieved without vinegar, cinnamon, lemon, parsley and ginger.
I do not need to be smarter then doctors or scientists I just need to use common sense appropriately.
You can cling to those studies for dear life but it still doesn't change the fact that those ingredients blended in a blender and consumed before bed and nothing more has to change will result in weight loss fast.
Do you know what lipids are? Do you know what increased metabolism is? Can you put the two together and figure out what that means? Do you understand the Japanese study which is a legitimate study showed weight loss in two groups consuming vinegar over a 12 week period? Is this really rocket science? This study contradicts what you are saying and you are not coming up with anything valid to counter the study. You must think very highly of yourself to be smarter than doctors, scientists, etc. Must be nice. If you have a legit study that says otherwise, point to it and it will mean WAY more than you dropping an lol and saying it simply cant be because you said so.
If you want people to read some study you found and discuss it with you, then you are asking them to do work on a subject they might not even be interested in. You might get more engagement and conversation if you avoid insulting them. Just sayin'.
IMO, the Kondo et al study is very weak. Limitations:
1) Only measurement of CO was a pedometer. Highly unreliable and inaccurate way to measure energy expenditure.
2) Meals were not structured at all. They were free-feeding. The "subjects were instructed not to consume foods that included large quantities of vinegar." Way too open for personal interpretation since they didn't even know what dosage of vinegar they were receiving during trial. This is a damaging confounder.
3) Weight and physical measurements were only made once every 4 weeks. Subjects were only required to create a diet diary for the 3 days directly preceding the measurement day. So not only were the meals self-reported (very inaccurate), they were only recorded for 10.7% of the study days.
4) On measurement days, "the subjects were advised to continue on isocaloric diets and to maintain their accustomed degree of physical activity throughout the test period." Are these highly experienced calorie counters that can accurately maintain isocaloric diet intuitively while only logging food 10% of the time? I doubt it.
5) Given the above limitations, it is not a surprise to see huge standard deviations in Table 3.
6) 8307 steps per day is not a statistically significant difference than 7314 steps/day? I guess if your standard deviation is high enough, sure, why not.
7) No apparent effort by the researchers to estimate the subjects' energy balance. No description of pre-treatment period protocol, subject directions, data evaluation, or any results presented. Did they even know if any given individual was eating at deficit going into the study?
8) Rule #1 when I do peer review is look for any unique or extraordinary conclusions. The authors start the discussion with this: "The present study is the first to demonstrate that vinegar reduces body weight, BMI, and body fat mass in obese Japanese subjects." Nope, sorry, I would ask for a revision to this statement before passing it. This statement states causality and they have not done so beyond a reasonable doubt.
I can't provide a counter article to show that ACV does not cause weight loss in humans, because AFAIK, this is the only paper in existence that studied it and made a conclusion on it. Care to guess why?
Most studies that people hold as gospel have flaws, there is no such thing as a perfect study... a great many come out favorable to the side of those who paid for them. Insulting? The TOS on this site wouldn't allow me to become insulting, being argumentative with someone who is being argumentative doesn't bother me a bit. And ty for saying you don't have a counter study... everything else is speculation until one is provided which as far I am concerned leaves me with the only point in this match. At least you came in with an intelligent response, so even though we disagree (though not completely), ty for that.
There are imperfect studies, and then there are studies so methodologically deficient that they're not worth credence, other than maybe suggesting directions for future, better controlled studies.
Well, it's a double blind where only the vinegar groups lost significant weight, according to the results. I would say it deserves some credence, even with all of its flaws. If there were mixed results in the di9fferent test groups I would not pay any mind to it. Obviously, it would need much more work. This study, however, appears to be on to something and needs to be tweaked.
Not paying attention to what went right with it because the study itself wasn't perfect would be as ignorant as me assuming this was a perfect study, which I don't. The results are, however, much more compelling than the typical cynical response and dismissal. You have to look at each individual aspect and make a judgment call based on all parts.
True there were flaws, but it holds more weight in the results than the speculation that must come in to play for someone to completely dismiss it. I'm not one of these people that believes California is going to fall into the ocean because "Nostradamus said so," at the same time I'm not someone who believes our economy is safe because I see the level of debt we're in. Meaning I look at all parts of something before I make a decision and I try to go by studies, facts and real numbers, and real odds as opposed to what most people do who can't even be bothered to look something over before passing judgment.
And I tend to do far better than others at what I set out to do for it, so for all the naysaying I could care less if people are unable to see and benefit from the nuances in life.15 -
Two points, not particularly related to one another:
(1). I made no comment about what credence the study in question deserves, just for the record.
(2). In the non-probative world of n=1, my months of weight loss included long periods when I drank a shot glass of ACV daily (around 30 ml, for reasons having nothing to do with weight loss), and long periods when I didn't, all while logging as meticulously as feasible. I observed no difference in weight loss rate. Of course I know intellectually that n=1 is not evidence, but I'm sure it biases my views subconsciously. Good to be aware of biases, I think?5
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