Coronavirus prep
Replies
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moonangel12 wrote: »Went to church yesterday (my husband is assistant pastor so a bit more “pressure” to be there... I know they would be OK with us staying home, but he is active in the service so he/we want to be there for support). We have hunkered down in our own little corner by ourselves, we get there early, wear our masks, use sanitizer frequently. We have been back for a month. The first week, about 50/50 mask usage, probably a little more. This week? Our family and one father/daughter duo were the only ones. And one lady asked my husband if she did something to make hime mad. He explained to her that we were just being cautious. It wasn’t her, we weren’t really interacting with many people at all. I feel a twinge of guilt (and am definitely self-conscious) not joining in the social circles, but I also am not comfortable jumping back into normal like it appears everyone else is. I kinda expected it though, we learned early on that germ awareness was weak with several families in particular (like my son going to one church friends house for a super bowl get together and when my husband picked him up there was another kid, who we know had the flu based on conversations that morning, was conked out in the recliner - we were NOT happy).
Our churches have been allowed to reopen but with some restrictions. Mine is staying closed until its all over. We continue to meet via Zoom.4 -
“Pandemic Potential” swine flu out of China... oh please no!
https://myfox8.com/news/pandemic-potential-new-swine-flu-strain-discovered-in-china/6 -
Dr. Gupta was talking on MSNBC yesterday about how the countries that have done better than the U.S. have much more "tests per confirmed case." We have 12 tests for each confirmed case here in the U.S. Other countries test rates per confirmed case are much higher: New Zealand - 270, Estonia - about 70, South Korea - about 90. And yet we have 12 per confirmed case. Testing is an important piece of the puzzle.8
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T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Dr. Gupta was talking on MSNBC yesterday about how the countries that have done better than the U.S. have much more "tests per confirmed case." We have 12 tests for each confirmed case here in the U.S. Other countries test rates per confirmed case are much higher: New Zealand - 270, Estonia - about 70, South Korea - about 90. And yet we have 12 per confirmed case. Testing is an important piece of the puzzle.
I totally agree it's important. Also I heard they are now doing a cheek swab in Australia now. Not sure how that is going but I am happy about that. Having your sinuses poked wasn't pleasant.4 -
All the tests done here in my part of Australia are still nasal swabs.
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I just read it's around 87% success rate versus the usual swabs at around 97-100% rate. The Sydney morning Herald said the 1st 100 test were done in Melbourne on Sunday and "We think it will play a role in bolstering testing reach across the state, particularly ... in vulnerable populations or in people who have trouble with the throat swab such as children or other individuals who find it more acceptable."
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/saliva-test-missing-about-13pc-of-covid-19-infections-early-studies-show-20200629-p557bh.html2 -
Following this conversation and the situation in the US especially makes me sad, honestly. I live in Finland (roughly the size of Minnesota, population-wise) and when we went into lockdown, we stayed there. Nobody tried to do politics with it (the opposition parties complained the restrictions weren’t severe enough) and pretty much everyone followed instructions.
Current situation in Finland:
0 patients in intensive care right now
23 patients in hospital care right now
328 total deaths
7209 total infections
Current situation in Minnesota for comparison:
140 in ICU right now
278 in hospital right now
1435 total deaths
35861 total infections
From what I’ve understood, Minnesota isn’t in particularly bad shape compared to other states, but correct me if I’m wrong.
When we went into lockdown mid-March, we really went in. A state of emergency was declared, enabling emergency powers for the government. At least the following restrictions happened and stayed in effect for at least a month:
- all non-essential public services (libraries, sports and culture facilities etc) were closed
- All colleges, universities and schools from 4th grade up closed and went to remote education
- All children were ordered to be kept home, except children of essential workers in daycare or up to 3rd grade whose parents couldn’t organise at-home care and supervision due to work (4th grade and up are expected to stay home alone)
- All public offices were ordered to remote work, and the entire private sector was strongly recommended to do the same
- Visiting hospitals and nursing homes was banned
- All large gatherings were banned and social distancing strongly recommended
- Everyone over 70 years old and those with risk factors were strongly recommended to self-quarantine
- Non-urgent medical care and preventative healthcare were mostly closed and appointments were canceled or rescheduled to reallocate resources to covid care
- Some private healthcare facilities and workers were ordered to halt regular business and to switch to covid care
- National supply stockpiles were released for the first time since world wars
- ”Emergency work” orders were prepared but I think not mandated. If mandated, everyone with adequate medical training, including retired nurses and those who retrained for another career after working as nurses or other healthcare pros, could have been drafted for work
- Restaurants and bars were closed, only take-away was allowed
- Borders were mostly closed and returning citizens were directed to 2 weeks of self-quarantine
- Most of the cases were in capital city Helsinki and the surrounding province Uusimaa (about a 40-mile radius around the city), so the area was separated from the rest of the country with a military-enforced border for a month to prevent spreading the virus to the countryside where population is more elderly and there are less hospital beds. This lasted for about a month with only essential traffic like supply logistics and commuting essential workers allowed through.
We really did all these things and stayed home. The internal border was the first to be lifted, schools opened for the last two weeks of May, and most restrictions started to be lifted in the beginning of June. People are still cautious and social distancing, infection rates haven’t gone up and the country is slowly returning to normal. There’s no mask requirement and most people don’t wear them because there’s no need. Public transportation feels safe. People still voluntarily and kinda instinctly avoid big crowds, office workers continue working from home, and a large part of the population has relocated to summer houses in the countryside to further isolate. The government, including health officials, is promoting domestic travel and tourism to boost the economy since the side effects of crashing economy are currently bigger risks for public health than the potential exposure from domestic travel. Gyms are open, but group fitness classes are canceled or take less people in, and everybody wipes down machines and weights after using them.
The public consensus is that there isn’t enough virus here for a second epidemic wave to happen, unless people abandon social distancing and hand-washing altogether or the new wave is brought from abroad.
I know societies and cultures are very different, but the situation here shows it can be done. People accepted the science-based decisions and trusted that the restrictions were for our own good, and did what we were told for the entire time period we were told to do so. As a result, today I can safely take the subway to the office, go out for lunch, and go to the gym after work without wearing a mask or worrying about infections. Yes, I will keep my distance to others in these activities and wash or sanitize my hands whenever arriving someplace, but the point is, I can do all these things today because all of us stayed home for 2,5 months.17 -
Following this conversation and the situation in the US especially makes me sad, honestly. I live in Finland (roughly the size of Minnesota, population-wise) and when we went into lockdown, we stayed there. Nobody tried to do politics with it (the opposition parties complained the restrictions weren’t severe enough) and pretty much everyone followed instructions.
Current situation in Finland:
0 patients in intensive care right now
23 patients in hospital care right now
328 total deaths
7209 total infections
Current situation in Minnesota for comparison:
140 in ICU right now
278 in hospital right now
1435 total deaths
35861 total infections
From what I’ve understood, Minnesota isn’t in particularly bad shape compared to other states, but correct me if I’m wrong.
When we went into lockdown mid-March, we really went in. A state of emergency was declared, enabling emergency powers for the government. At least the following restrictions happened and stayed in effect for at least a month:
- all non-essential public services (libraries, sports and culture facilities etc) were closed
- All colleges, universities and schools from 4th grade up closed and went to remote education
- All children were ordered to be kept home, except children of essential workers in daycare or up to 3rd grade whose parents couldn’t organise at-home care and supervision due to work (4th grade and up are expected to stay home alone)
- All public offices were ordered to remote work, and the entire private sector was strongly recommended to do the same
- Visiting hospitals and nursing homes was banned
- All large gatherings were banned and social distancing strongly recommended
- Everyone over 70 years old and those with risk factors were strongly recommended to self-quarantine
- Non-urgent medical care and preventative healthcare were mostly closed and appointments were canceled or rescheduled to reallocate resources to covid care
- Some private healthcare facilities and workers were ordered to halt regular business and to switch to covid care
- National supply stockpiles were released for the first time since world wars
- ”Emergency work” orders were prepared but I think not mandated. If mandated, everyone with adequate medical training, including retired nurses and those who retrained for another career after working as nurses or other healthcare pros, could have been drafted for work
- Restaurants and bars were closed, only take-away was allowed
- Borders were mostly closed and returning citizens were directed to 2 weeks of self-quarantine
- Most of the cases were in capital city Helsinki and the surrounding province Uusimaa (about a 40-mile radius around the city), so the area was separated from the rest of the country with a military-enforced border for a month to prevent spreading the virus to the countryside where population is more elderly and there are less hospital beds. This lasted for about a month with only essential traffic like supply logistics and commuting essential workers allowed through.
We really did all these things and stayed home. The internal border was the first to be lifted, schools opened for the last two weeks of May, and most restrictions started to be lifted in the beginning of June. People are still cautious and social distancing, infection rates haven’t gone up and the country is slowly returning to normal. There’s no mask requirement and most people don’t wear them because there’s no need. Public transportation feels safe. People still voluntarily and kinda instinctly avoid big crowds, office workers continue working from home, and a large part of the population has relocated to summer houses in the countryside to further isolate. The government, including health officials, is promoting domestic travel and tourism to boost the economy since the side effects of crashing economy are currently bigger risks for public health than the potential exposure from domestic travel. Gyms are open, but group fitness classes are canceled or take less people in, and everybody wipes down machines and weights after using them.
The public consensus is that there isn’t enough virus here for a second epidemic wave to happen, unless people abandon social distancing and hand-washing altogether or the new wave is brought from abroad.
I know societies and cultures are very different, but the situation here shows it can be done. People accepted the science-based decisions and trusted that the restrictions were for our own good, and did what we were told for the entire time period we were told to do so. As a result, today I can safely take the subway to the office, go out for lunch, and go to the gym after work without wearing a mask or worrying about infections. Yes, I will keep my distance to others in these activities and wash or sanitize my hands whenever arriving someplace, but the point is, I can do all these things today because all of us stayed home for 2,5 months.
Compared to a state with a similar population size (wisconsin), Minnesota has had a higher % of deaths per positive patient. MN had 1416 deaths our of 33227 positive patients (approx 4.2%), where WI had 745 deaths out of 25428 positives (approx 2.9%). In comparison, NY and IL, are significantly worse. NY has around 25k deaths out of 390k positives (approx 6.8%), and IL is at around 6900 deaths out of 1426900k positives (approx 4.9%).3 -
Minnesotan born and raised. Wisconsin started out with more cases, but we did surpass them. Spread of Covid in meat packing plants are responsible for a lot of our cases. The cases aren’t spiking, however, as in other more populace states. Wearing masks, and social distancing work at slowing the spreading of Covid. Our governor is a true leader and slowly reopening businesses. Managing this crisis and at the same time, social unrest. The US has poor national leadership. It’s a catch 22 reopening, proven by spikes in the states where they didn’t use more caution and safety measures.
This is devastating to the economy. Healthcare costs are skyrocketing, making affordable health care for most Americans a joke.
Is it going to get worse? The experts say yes. Following social distancing and face masks guidelines works, at slowing the spread. Common sense hopefully will prevail.
What will the 4th bring? We shall see in a couple of weeks.9 -
Buttermello wrote: »Following this conversation and the situation in the US especially makes me sad, honestly. I live in Finland (roughly the size of Minnesota, population-wise) and when we went into lockdown, we stayed there. Nobody tried to do politics with it (the opposition parties complained the restrictions weren’t severe enough) and pretty much everyone followed instructions.
Current situation in Finland:
0 patients in intensive care right now
23 patients in hospital care right now
328 total deaths
7209 total infections
Current situation in Minnesota for comparison:
140 in ICU right now
278 in hospital right now
1435 total deaths
35861 total infections
From what I’ve understood, Minnesota isn’t in particularly bad shape compared to other states, but correct me if I’m wrong.
When we went into lockdown mid-March, we really went in. A state of emergency was declared, enabling emergency powers for the government. At least the following restrictions happened and stayed in effect for at least a month:
- all non-essential public services (libraries, sports and culture facilities etc) were closed
- All colleges, universities and schools from 4th grade up closed and went to remote education
- All children were ordered to be kept home, except children of essential workers in daycare or up to 3rd grade whose parents couldn’t organise at-home care and supervision due to work (4th grade and up are expected to stay home alone)
- All public offices were ordered to remote work, and the entire private sector was strongly recommended to do the same
- Visiting hospitals and nursing homes was banned
- All large gatherings were banned and social distancing strongly recommended
- Everyone over 70 years old and those with risk factors were strongly recommended to self-quarantine
- Non-urgent medical care and preventative healthcare were mostly closed and appointments were canceled or rescheduled to reallocate resources to covid care
- Some private healthcare facilities and workers were ordered to halt regular business and to switch to covid care
- National supply stockpiles were released for the first time since world wars
- ”Emergency work” orders were prepared but I think not mandated. If mandated, everyone with adequate medical training, including retired nurses and those who retrained for another career after working as nurses or other healthcare pros, could have been drafted for work
- Restaurants and bars were closed, only take-away was allowed
- Borders were mostly closed and returning citizens were directed to 2 weeks of self-quarantine
- Most of the cases were in capital city Helsinki and the surrounding province Uusimaa (about a 40-mile radius around the city), so the area was separated from the rest of the country with a military-enforced border for a month to prevent spreading the virus to the countryside where population is more elderly and there are less hospital beds. This lasted for about a month with only essential traffic like supply logistics and commuting essential workers allowed through.
We really did all these things and stayed home. The internal border was the first to be lifted, schools opened for the last two weeks of May, and most restrictions started to be lifted in the beginning of June. People are still cautious and social distancing, infection rates haven’t gone up and the country is slowly returning to normal. There’s no mask requirement and most people don’t wear them because there’s no need. Public transportation feels safe. People still voluntarily and kinda instinctly avoid big crowds, office workers continue working from home, and a large part of the population has relocated to summer houses in the countryside to further isolate. The government, including health officials, is promoting domestic travel and tourism to boost the economy since the side effects of crashing economy are currently bigger risks for public health than the potential exposure from domestic travel. Gyms are open, but group fitness classes are canceled or take less people in, and everybody wipes down machines and weights after using them.
The public consensus is that there isn’t enough virus here for a second epidemic wave to happen, unless people abandon social distancing and hand-washing altogether or the new wave is brought from abroad.
I know societies and cultures are very different, but the situation here shows it can be done. People accepted the science-based decisions and trusted that the restrictions were for our own good, and did what we were told for the entire time period we were told to do so. As a result, today I can safely take the subway to the office, go out for lunch, and go to the gym after work without wearing a mask or worrying about infections. Yes, I will keep my distance to others in these activities and wash or sanitize my hands whenever arriving someplace, but the point is, I can do all these things today because all of us stayed home for 2,5 months.
Compared to a state with a similar population size (wisconsin), Minnesota has had a higher % of deaths per positive patient. MN had 1416 deaths our of 33227 positive patients (approx 4.2%), where WI had 745 deaths out of 25428 positives (approx 2.9%). In comparison, NY and IL, are significantly worse. NY has around 25k deaths out of 390k positives (approx 6.8%), and IL is at around 6900 deaths out of 1426900k positives (approx 4.9%).
To add to this (from Cook Co, IL, which is where most of the IL cases have been, and which is roughly the population of WI as a whole), we did basically all the things that Finland did BUT FOR the border stuff (more on that below). There have been individual problems with social gathering or gathering in parks -- those have been particular problems in specific communities and early on -- so I don't know how that compares, but I doubt it's inherently different. The population as a whole here has been pretty compliant (not saying in the US as a whole, but so far the least compliant places in the US are largely the ones without a lot of cases/less dense places, so it's hard to blame the lack of lockdown for most of the problem in the US -- that could change if deaths spike up, of course, in connection with the partial reopenings).
One thing I think is different in IL/NY compared to WI/MN and probably between much of the US that has been hit (including WI/MN) and Finland is that the US has mainly been hard hit in denser areas and in areas where there is a lot of international travel. It now seems quite apparent that shutting down around 3/20 for parts of the US (including Chicago and even more so the NYC metro area) was way too late (the partial shut down here started the week before), but at that point there weren't yet many cases identified. Indeed, the first suspected community transmission case in Chicago wasn't until 3/8 (before then there had been isolated cases traced to people returning from abroad).
On the death rate comparison, I think such comparisons are inherently misleading because so many cases were missed by states that got hit hard early on. At that time, the testing could not keep up. Right now, there are far fewer % positive for tests than during the worst days of it (same for NYC metro), which certainly means that total cases have been understated -- they are understated everywhere, but were more so early on in places hard hit -- and the actual death rate not as high. So is the death rate 6.8% in NY vs. 4.9% in IL vs. 4.2% in MN? I doubt it. I think all are much lower. During the worst days in NY, for example, something like 50% of tests were coming in positive.
The other big difference in death rate between states potentially is nursing homes. It did get into some nursing homes here (responsible for a large portion of the deaths, of course), and I understand this was a very major factor in what happened in NY. So far the newer cases seem to be mostly hitting younger people, so the question is whether they will be able to keep it from spreading into nursing homes. One thing the states now being hit/seeing upticks have going for them is that they have had a lot more time to learn from what's happened already.
What some countries have been able to do is stop international travel/close borders and have strong quarantines for those returning from abroad. For that to work in the US--certainly in places like NYC and Chicago--we would have had to start doing that by January, I now think, and I don't think anyone understood enough about the threat to us yet, or was psychologically ready to accept it, for us to have been willing to do that so early on. In early March/late February I recall being upset that they kept bringing back students and others from Italy and NOT doing anything to quarantine them or test them immediately, but now I realize even that would have been too late.2 -
Buttermello wrote: »Following this conversation and the situation in the US especially makes me sad, honestly. I live in Finland (roughly the size of Minnesota, population-wise) and when we went into lockdown, we stayed there. Nobody tried to do politics with it (the opposition parties complained the restrictions weren’t severe enough) and pretty much everyone followed instructions.
Current situation in Finland:
0 patients in intensive care right now
23 patients in hospital care right now
328 total deaths
7209 total infections
Current situation in Minnesota for comparison:
140 in ICU right now
278 in hospital right now
1435 total deaths
35861 total infections
From what I’ve understood, Minnesota isn’t in particularly bad shape compared to other states, but correct me if I’m wrong.
When we went into lockdown mid-March, we really went in. A state of emergency was declared, enabling emergency powers for the government. At least the following restrictions happened and stayed in effect for at least a month:
- all non-essential public services (libraries, sports and culture facilities etc) were closed
- All colleges, universities and schools from 4th grade up closed and went to remote education
- All children were ordered to be kept home, except children of essential workers in daycare or up to 3rd grade whose parents couldn’t organise at-home care and supervision due to work (4th grade and up are expected to stay home alone)
- All public offices were ordered to remote work, and the entire private sector was strongly recommended to do the same
- Visiting hospitals and nursing homes was banned
- All large gatherings were banned and social distancing strongly recommended
- Everyone over 70 years old and those with risk factors were strongly recommended to self-quarantine
- Non-urgent medical care and preventative healthcare were mostly closed and appointments were canceled or rescheduled to reallocate resources to covid care
- Some private healthcare facilities and workers were ordered to halt regular business and to switch to covid care
- National supply stockpiles were released for the first time since world wars
- ”Emergency work” orders were prepared but I think not mandated. If mandated, everyone with adequate medical training, including retired nurses and those who retrained for another career after working as nurses or other healthcare pros, could have been drafted for work
- Restaurants and bars were closed, only take-away was allowed
- Borders were mostly closed and returning citizens were directed to 2 weeks of self-quarantine
- Most of the cases were in capital city Helsinki and the surrounding province Uusimaa (about a 40-mile radius around the city), so the area was separated from the rest of the country with a military-enforced border for a month to prevent spreading the virus to the countryside where population is more elderly and there are less hospital beds. This lasted for about a month with only essential traffic like supply logistics and commuting essential workers allowed through.
We really did all these things and stayed home. The internal border was the first to be lifted, schools opened for the last two weeks of May, and most restrictions started to be lifted in the beginning of June. People are still cautious and social distancing, infection rates haven’t gone up and the country is slowly returning to normal. There’s no mask requirement and most people don’t wear them because there’s no need. Public transportation feels safe. People still voluntarily and kinda instinctly avoid big crowds, office workers continue working from home, and a large part of the population has relocated to summer houses in the countryside to further isolate. The government, including health officials, is promoting domestic travel and tourism to boost the economy since the side effects of crashing economy are currently bigger risks for public health than the potential exposure from domestic travel. Gyms are open, but group fitness classes are canceled or take less people in, and everybody wipes down machines and weights after using them.
The public consensus is that there isn’t enough virus here for a second epidemic wave to happen, unless people abandon social distancing and hand-washing altogether or the new wave is brought from abroad.
I know societies and cultures are very different, but the situation here shows it can be done. People accepted the science-based decisions and trusted that the restrictions were for our own good, and did what we were told for the entire time period we were told to do so. As a result, today I can safely take the subway to the office, go out for lunch, and go to the gym after work without wearing a mask or worrying about infections. Yes, I will keep my distance to others in these activities and wash or sanitize my hands whenever arriving someplace, but the point is, I can do all these things today because all of us stayed home for 2,5 months.
Compared to a state with a similar population size (wisconsin), Minnesota has had a higher % of deaths per positive patient. MN had 1416 deaths our of 33227 positive patients (approx 4.2%), where WI had 745 deaths out of 25428 positives (approx 2.9%). In comparison, NY and IL, are significantly worse. NY has around 25k deaths out of 390k positives (approx 6.8%), and IL is at around 6900 deaths out of 1426900k positives (approx 4.9%).
To add to this (from Cook Co, IL, which is where most of the IL cases have been, and which is roughly the population of WI as a whole), we did basically all the things that Finland did BUT FOR the boarder stuff (more on that below). There have been individual problems with social gathering or gathering in parks -- those have been particular problems in specific communities and early on -- so I don't know how that compares, but I doubt it's inherently different. The population as a whole here has been pretty compliant (not saying in the US as a whole, but so far the least compliant places in the US are largely the ones without a lot of cases/less dense places, so it's hard to blame the lack of lockdown for most of the problem in the US -- that could change if deaths spike up, of course, in connection with the partial reopenings).
One thing I think is different in IL/NY compared to WI/MN and probably between much of the US that has been hit (including WI/MN) and Finland is that the US has mainly been hard hit in denser areas and in areas where there is a lot of international travel. It now seems quite apparent that shutting down around 3/20 for parts of the US (including Chicago and even more so the NYC metro area) was way too late (the partial shut down here started the week before), but at that point there weren't yet many cases identified. Indeed, the first suspected community transmission case in Chicago wasn't until 3/8 (before then there had been isolated cases traced to people returning from abroad).
The death rate is likely worse in IL (mainly Chicago/Cook, to be more accurate) and NY (again, dominated by NYC metro), because those states got hit early and the testing quickly could not keep up. Right now, there are far fewer % positive for tests than during the worst days of it (same for NYC metro), which certainly means that total cases have been understated -- they are understated everywhere, but were more so early on in places hard hit -- and the actual death rate not as high.
The other big difference potentially is nursing homes. It did get into some nursing homes here, and I understand very badly in NY. So far the newer cases seem to be mostly hitting younger people, so the question is whether they will be able to keep it from spreading into nursing homes. One thing the states now being hit/seeing upticks have going for them is that they have had a lot more time to learn from what's happened already.
What some countries have been able to do is stop international travel/close borders and have strong quarantines for those returning from abroad. For that to work in the US--certainly in places like NYC and Chicago--we would have had to start doing that by January, I now think, and I don't think anyone understood enough about the threat to us yet, or was psychologically ready to accept it, for us to have been willing to do that so early on. In early March/late February I recall being upset that they kept bringing back students and others from Italy and NOT doing anything to quarantine them or test them immediately, but now I realize even that would have been too late.
The borders leaking were a (relatively) big issue here as well. In the early stages there wasn't enough supervision and guidance in the airports, and people were allowed to leave and move freely instead of being directed straight to hotel quarantine or advised on how to properly self-quarantine at home. There's also quite a lot of commute going on up north around the city of Tornio-Haparanda, which is basically split between two countries and a lot of the infrastructure and public services are shared with Sweden, which is doing notoriously bad with it's covid-19 response.
I had some friends doing exchange studies this semester. One went to Venice and chose to stay there until flights started again in June. She said she felt safer sitting in her apartment there than traveling through multiple population dense hubs instead of direct flights. Her parents have risk factors and she would've had to stay at their house since she sublet her own place, so overall she chose to just wait it out in Venice. Another friend was in Middle East, and she ended up coming home with a German emergency flight that also took other EU citizens, and then flying commercially from Germany.
The major difference with borders compared to the US is that the US has roughly the same area as Europe. Europe has 51 different countries, most of which closed borders. I haven't heard of any state in the US closing domestic borders between neighboring states, I don't know if that's even legally possible.2 -
Related to death rates, from what I've read, most of WA State was infected from Asia, which at that time was already a mutated version of the virus, much less deadly than the one that hit NY City early coming from Italy.
The scientists are saying the good news is it's now a bit less deadly (but still very dangerous and deadly) but also much more contagious.
The death rates are inflated as so many cases aren't (or can't) get into hospitals or get tests. I think a ton of young people are getting it and not getting tested.4 -
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Thanks,
Em
Edited to fix a link.3 -
moonangel12 wrote: »“Pandemic Potential” swine flu out of China... oh please no!
https://myfox8.com/news/pandemic-potential-new-swine-flu-strain-discovered-in-china/
Saw that this morning.
Hey 2020! Can we just STOP with all of this?!?!
Makes me even more certain that I am going to make sure I have plenty of supplies for the upcoming Fall/Winter. I'm not going to do anything crazy like hoard 5 huge packs of toilet paper or buy 10 lbs of chicken. Not even sure I would have anywhere to store that if I wanted to. But I do think I will have 2 extra packs of toilet paper and enough chicken for a few weeks (which honestly might be close to 10 lbs with the amount I eat... it's my main protein source). Maybe 3 bags of rice (or 1 huge giant bag from the Asian Market) but again, not that much more for me since I usually have short grain and long grain on hand at all times. Right now I think I have 2 full bags and 3 partial bags of different rice types.
6 -
moonangel12 wrote: »“Pandemic Potential” swine flu out of China... oh please no!
https://myfox8.com/news/pandemic-potential-new-swine-flu-strain-discovered-in-china/
Saw that this morning.
Hey 2020! Can we just STOP with all of this?!?!
Makes me even more certain that I am going to make sure I have plenty of supplies for the upcoming Fall/Winter. I'm not going to do anything crazy like hoard 5 huge packs of toilet paper or buy 10 lbs of chicken. Not even sure I would have anywhere to store that if I wanted to. But I do think I will have 2 extra packs of toilet paper and enough chicken for a few weeks (which honestly might be close to 10 lbs with the amount I eat... it's my main protein source). Maybe 3 bags of rice (or 1 huge giant bag from the Asian Market) but again, not that much more for me since I usually have short grain and long grain on hand at all times. Right now I think I have 2 full bags and 3 partial bags of different rice types.
I have a family if 6, 4 boys, and in non pandemic times we entertain 15+ ppl 2-3x a week. So we have 3 packs of toilet paper and 10lbs of chicken here as a normal thing 😂
I have been heeding the wise advice on here to slowly stock up on cleaners, wipes, hand sanitizer, etc. I have always had access to food, and our direst need of TP we could buy single rolls here or drive to FIL’s store to get some, but those other items were not available anywhere. So I’ll be buying sometime each time I need to head out to the store.
4 -
"Hindsight is 2020" is going to have a new connotation moving forward, I think.11
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Stuff I can’t get that I need: chickpeas. Seriously, is there some deal with chickpeas? No one locally has had any in stock for months now.3
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rheddmobile wrote: »Stuff I can’t get that I need: chickpeas. Seriously, is there some deal with chickpeas? No one locally has had any in stock for months now.
I eat chickpeas (usually) at least 2-3 times a week and the supply has been seriously uneven ever since lockdown started (which, here in Minneapolis, was mid-March). I would say that they're only in stock every 2-3 shopping trips. So they're clearly getting restocked from *somewhere* but the supply is very unpredictable. All other beans have been fine for weeks now.1 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »In the US here btw.
Is anyone else planning on how they may stock up before Fall/Winter? While I know we are not even out of wave 1 in most places, I also know that a Fall/Winter with Covid plus flu plus the other normal illnesses for that time of the year is going to be a mess. I am figuring out how to eat through what I have in the freezer now so I can restock. Also taking notes of what I bought this last time and did not eat or what I struggled to get this last time around.
I'm not much worried about food. There was always food in the stores during the worst of shut downs and panic buying here, even if there wasn't always everything you wanted. And I'm pretty flexible about eating what's available.
I've made a list of non-food items that were in short supply for the first two to three months (hand sanitizer, various types of household disinfectant cleaning products, soap, toilet paper, paper towels, facial tissues, vitamin D) that I feel are important for health and hygiene, and every time I go to the store I buy something from the list, which I wouldn't normally have to do every shopping trip, so I'm gradually building up a little stockpile for when the next wave hits and the store shelves empty again.
Maybe I'll think about adding things like powdered milk, powdered eggs, flour, yeast, dried beans, rice, oats, and other grains to the list, but really, I didn't make that much of a dent in my regular stock of those things during the first wave, because, as I said, it was never as if there was no food at all available to buy. Even when there was no dairy milk available, there was soy and other nondairy milk available. And when there were no fresh eggs in the grocery stores, I was able to find them at a farm stand and at a Greek bakery that started selling them for pickup orders, along with lebneh, olives, and some pantry staples.
For me part of it is the fact that I do have a slightly increased risk and my issues with masks. So I want to be prepared so I am not having to go out as much. It will also help with my anxiety if things start picking up again.
Thank you for the reminder about supplements and facial tissues. I will add those to my list to start picking up over time.
As for food I was thinking about the stuff I eat ALL the time. Like chicken, asian noodles (udons, soba, ramen), rice, coconut aminos, broths/stocks, yeast, frozen broccoli, other frozen veggies (for like soups) etc. That sort of stuff. I won't worry about things I don't eat all that much or items that I didn't have a lot of trouble finding (fresh produce or fish for example). I also learned that I don't really eat canned veggies or canned soup since making them both fresh is just as easy. I'm not worried about bread as long as I have yeast and flour. Easier to make my own anyway due to food allergies and restrictions.
I know I may come across as a bit... crazy. I just want to feel prepared for what I KNOW is going to be a bad fall/winter.
The college scene is going to be hard. They live in such close quarters. It would be nice if colleges had old fashioned infirmaries so infected kids could isolate there, but I do not see that happening. One daughter goes to college in PA in a county that was the first to be locked down. Two of six roommates had mild Covid cases and recovered. The same six are living together plus 2 more next year. I have no idea what they will do if one gets sick. There isn't a way to isolate at all.
Actually, there are many universities that are designating entire dorm buildings for students who need to be in quarantine, either because of a positive test or known exposure.
My question is, what happens to the COVID-positive student. Do they get to continue their classes remotely or do they just have to take an Incomplete for the semester? What happens then since they are quarantined for 14 days and cannot attend an in-person class? They must have a plan for that, but if they do our local university isn't bothering to share it.
5 -
The tp situation in Iowa is much better than it was, but still hard to find hand sanitizer, hand or household wipes, and hand soap. Most of the food we eat has been available most of the time. We buy beef from our cousin & have a chest freezer, so not running out of meat anytime soon. Mask wearing is kind of hit & miss. My gs estimated the other day about 75% compliance at Walmart that day. A different Walmart a different day & dh said he was about the only one with a mask. Our numbers are confusing, because they are using a moving number, but seem to be holding around 3-400 new cases per day. For awhile, a lot of our cases were from meat processing plants & nursing homes, too. Not sure about now.2
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What I see here in Virginia is I think a big problem for the US that I have no idea how to fix. Alot of the state is rural and most of the cities are not too densely populated, and so we haven't been hit hard at all. The hospitals are well prepared for any cases they get. But covid is still here. We have new cases and deaths every day. Not enough to scare anyone, so there's lots of folks who aren't taking it seriously, but not low enough to stop spreading. Which means all it will take is one big church or one beach party and there's a super spreader. One vacation to a hot spot followed by a meal at a local restaurant.
Until the whole country is onboard and being vigilant, this thing can hide in these little pockets looking harmless and then find opportunities to blow up again. Without more consistent vigilance and without centralized guidelines and protocols for how to deal with flare ups when they're minor, we are never going to see the success other countries have seen.
The southern hotspots are the perfect example. They had 3+ months to learn from Washington and NY and it doesn't seem like any learning was done other than the healthcare folks knowing more about how to treat it. There are still people walking around Houston without masks as their ICUs hit capacity! We need more people on board and actually practicing the most basic precautions we should be
7 -
I think people are mostly doing the right thing here in Washington.
In stores and out on the trails, most people are paying attention. Mask use in stores is almost 100% and there is no one enforcing it. People are just complying.
Except the employees who have got to just be suffering from long-term complacency. They make no attempts to give six feet nor worry about touching stuff and then touching other stuff. It's impossible to make humans change this much.
Washington is doing okay. Our death and hospitalization rate is way down. The nursing home thing seems to be under control so that helps.Testing has doubled since June 1. Positive rates are still around 6%.
It's really really hard on us older people though. It just is. No socializing at all. It's - I'm over it.
/self-pity.
At least this new swine flu will be less likely to spread with all the travel restrictions. Sigh.9 -
Here's my counter to the, "We're all gonna die now," media frenzy.
https://www.cnet.com/news/heres-the-truth-about-the-new-swine-flu-with-pandemic-potential/4 -
cmriverside wrote: »Here's my counter to the, "We're all gonna die now," media frenzy.
https://www.cnet.com/news/heres-the-truth-about-the-new-swine-flu-with-pandemic-potential/
2 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Dr. Gupta was talking on MSNBC yesterday about how the countries that have done better than the U.S. have much more "tests per confirmed case." We have 12 tests for each confirmed case here in the U.S. Other countries test rates per confirmed case are much higher: New Zealand - 270, Estonia - about 70, South Korea - about 90. And yet we have 12 per confirmed case. Testing is an important piece of the puzzle.
Trying to understand the point you're making. Does this make the USA "good" or "bad"?
If I understand it correctly, it seems like they're finding 1 sick person for every 12 tested. Where I live there is only 1 sick person for every 80 people tested. On the other hand, the chart seems to be showing the USA tests just over 3 times as many persons per million of population than we're doing here. Another point though is that we had very few deaths from our COVID cases.1 -
Following this conversation and the situation in the US especially makes me sad, honestly. I live in Finland (roughly the size of Minnesota, population-wise) and when we went into lockdown, we stayed there. Nobody tried to do politics with it (the opposition parties complained the restrictions weren’t severe enough) and pretty much everyone followed instructions.
Current situation in Finland:
0 patients in intensive care right now
23 patients in hospital care right now
328 total deaths
7209 total infections
Current situation in Minnesota for comparison:
140 in ICU right now
278 in hospital right now
1435 total deaths
35861 total infections
From what I’ve understood, Minnesota isn’t in particularly bad shape compared to other states, but correct me if I’m wrong.
When we went into lockdown mid-March, we really went in. A state of emergency was declared, enabling emergency powers for the government. At least the following restrictions happened and stayed in effect for at least a month:
- all non-essential public services (libraries, sports and culture facilities etc) were closed
- All colleges, universities and schools from 4th grade up closed and went to remote education
- All children were ordered to be kept home, except children of essential workers in daycare or up to 3rd grade whose parents couldn’t organise at-home care and supervision due to work (4th grade and up are expected to stay home alone)
- All public offices were ordered to remote work, and the entire private sector was strongly recommended to do the same
- Visiting hospitals and nursing homes was banned
- All large gatherings were banned and social distancing strongly recommended
- Everyone over 70 years old and those with risk factors were strongly recommended to self-quarantine
- Non-urgent medical care and preventative healthcare were mostly closed and appointments were canceled or rescheduled to reallocate resources to covid care
- Some private healthcare facilities and workers were ordered to halt regular business and to switch to covid care
- National supply stockpiles were released for the first time since world wars
- ”Emergency work” orders were prepared but I think not mandated. If mandated, everyone with adequate medical training, including retired nurses and those who retrained for another career after working as nurses or other healthcare pros, could have been drafted for work
- Restaurants and bars were closed, only take-away was allowed
- Borders were mostly closed and returning citizens were directed to 2 weeks of self-quarantine
- Most of the cases were in capital city Helsinki and the surrounding province Uusimaa (about a 40-mile radius around the city), so the area was separated from the rest of the country with a military-enforced border for a month to prevent spreading the virus to the countryside where population is more elderly and there are less hospital beds. This lasted for about a month with only essential traffic like supply logistics and commuting essential workers allowed through.
We really did all these things and stayed home. The internal border was the first to be lifted, schools opened for the last two weeks of May, and most restrictions started to be lifted in the beginning of June. People are still cautious and social distancing, infection rates haven’t gone up and the country is slowly returning to normal. There’s no mask requirement and most people don’t wear them because there’s no need. Public transportation feels safe. People still voluntarily and kinda instinctly avoid big crowds, office workers continue working from home, and a large part of the population has relocated to summer houses in the countryside to further isolate. The government, including health officials, is promoting domestic travel and tourism to boost the economy since the side effects of crashing economy are currently bigger risks for public health than the potential exposure from domestic travel. Gyms are open, but group fitness classes are canceled or take less people in, and everybody wipes down machines and weights after using them.
The public consensus is that there isn’t enough virus here for a second epidemic wave to happen, unless people abandon social distancing and hand-washing altogether or the new wave is brought from abroad.
I know societies and cultures are very different, but the situation here shows it can be done. People accepted the science-based decisions and trusted that the restrictions were for our own good, and did what we were told for the entire time period we were told to do so. As a result, today I can safely take the subway to the office, go out for lunch, and go to the gym after work without wearing a mask or worrying about infections. Yes, I will keep my distance to others in these activities and wash or sanitize my hands whenever arriving someplace, but the point is, I can do all these things today because all of us stayed home for 2,5 months.
That is the difference between the US and your country! We in America are living in highly politicize and negative times, and the words of totally unfit people take priority over science. Restrictions of any kind, even for our own good or for the health of the communities, are demonized. Personal freedom is more important than personal health for some people.13 -
The US has had conflicting information which created distrust. At first we were told not to wear masks because they didn't work, then we were told to wear them because they work, then we were told we were lied to at first because we didn't have enough masks. We've all seen this type of stuff on TV shows, just trying to keep people calm.
I've anonymized the quote, because I don't mean the reponse to be personal. This is a kind of idea I've seen fairly often, in various places, basically that the experts undermined people's confidence by changing their minds.
WTflippieDip?
Speaking for myself, I want experts to keep learning, and - if the things they learn lead them in this direction - to change their minds, admit they were wrong, and change their advice to us. That behavior increases my confidence in them.
The idea that an expert does (or ought to) know all the ins and outs up front, especially in a situation with important novel elements . . . I think that's wrong. They're regular humans, not omniscient god-like creatures. They learn and adjust (please!).
We can learn and adjust, too, if we can take that same posture, of trying to understand as more knowledge becomes available.
What's the alternative? Is someone just supposed to give us the right orders on day one, and we follow that directive blindly, even if it heads right over the cliff?
Sorry, I'm getting hyperbolic.
21 -
baconslave wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »In the US here btw.
Is anyone else planning on how they may stock up before Fall/Winter? While I know we are not even out of wave 1 in most places, I also know that a Fall/Winter with Covid plus flu plus the other normal illnesses for that time of the year is going to be a mess. I am figuring out how to eat through what I have in the freezer now so I can restock. Also taking notes of what I bought this last time and did not eat or what I struggled to get this last time around.
I'm not much worried about food. There was always food in the stores during the worst of shut downs and panic buying here, even if there wasn't always everything you wanted. And I'm pretty flexible about eating what's available.
I've made a list of non-food items that were in short supply for the first two to three months (hand sanitizer, various types of household disinfectant cleaning products, soap, toilet paper, paper towels, facial tissues, vitamin D) that I feel are important for health and hygiene, and every time I go to the store I buy something from the list, which I wouldn't normally have to do every shopping trip, so I'm gradually building up a little stockpile for when the next wave hits and the store shelves empty again.
Maybe I'll think about adding things like powdered milk, powdered eggs, flour, yeast, dried beans, rice, oats, and other grains to the list, but really, I didn't make that much of a dent in my regular stock of those things during the first wave, because, as I said, it was never as if there was no food at all available to buy. Even when there was no dairy milk available, there was soy and other nondairy milk available. And when there were no fresh eggs in the grocery stores, I was able to find them at a farm stand and at a Greek bakery that started selling them for pickup orders, along with lebneh, olives, and some pantry staples.
For me part of it is the fact that I do have a slightly increased risk and my issues with masks. So I want to be prepared so I am not having to go out as much. It will also help with my anxiety if things start picking up again.
Thank you for the reminder about supplements and facial tissues. I will add those to my list to start picking up over time.
As for food I was thinking about the stuff I eat ALL the time. Like chicken, asian noodles (udons, soba, ramen), rice, coconut aminos, broths/stocks, yeast, frozen broccoli, other frozen veggies (for like soups) etc. That sort of stuff. I won't worry about things I don't eat all that much or items that I didn't have a lot of trouble finding (fresh produce or fish for example). I also learned that I don't really eat canned veggies or canned soup since making them both fresh is just as easy. I'm not worried about bread as long as I have yeast and flour. Easier to make my own anyway due to food allergies and restrictions.
I know I may come across as a bit... crazy. I just want to feel prepared for what I KNOW is going to be a bad fall/winter.
The college scene is going to be hard. They live in such close quarters. It would be nice if colleges had old fashioned infirmaries so infected kids could isolate there, but I do not see that happening. One daughter goes to college in PA in a county that was the first to be locked down. Two of six roommates had mild Covid cases and recovered. The same six are living together plus 2 more next year. I have no idea what they will do if one gets sick. There isn't a way to isolate at all.
Actually, there are many universities that are designating entire dorm buildings for students who need to be in quarantine, either because of a positive test or known exposure.
My question is, what happens to the COVID-positive student. Do they get to continue their classes remotely or do they just have to take an Incomplete for the semester? What happens then since they are quarantined for 14 days and cannot attend an in-person class? They must have a plan for that, but if they do our local university isn't bothering to share it.
The ones I have read about say they can continue their classes remotely.
As with all of these re-opening plans, whether at universities or at businesses, there seem to be more questions than answers.3 -
The US has had conflicting information which created distrust. At first we were told not to wear masks because they didn't work, then we were told to wear them because they work, then we were told we were lied to at first because we didn't have enough masks. We've all seen this type of stuff on TV shows, just trying to keep people calm.
I've anonymized the quote, because I don't mean the reponse to be personal. This is a kind of idea I've seen fairly often, in various places, basically that the experts undermined people's confidence by changing their minds.
WTflippieDip?
Speaking for myself, I want experts to keep learning, and - if the things they learn lead them in this direction - to change their minds, admit they were wrong, and change their advice to us. That behavior increases my confidence in them.
The idea that an expert does (or ought to) know all the ins and outs up front, especially in a situation with important novel elements . . . I think that's wrong. They're regular humans, not omniscient god-like creatures. They learn and adjust (please!).
We can learn and adjust, too, if we can take that same posture, of trying to understand as more knowledge becomes available.
What's the alternative? Is someone just supposed to give us the right orders on day one, and we follow that directive blindly, even if it heads right over the cliff?
Sorry, I'm getting hyperbolic.
The problem with the mask messaging isn’t that the experts changed their minds but that they provided false information. It’s not news that masks prevent transmission of airborne viruses - Asian nations have done studies on it for decades. Americans were told they didn’t help not because the experts believed that and later changed their minds, but because they initially wanted the general public to stop stockpiling masks so that medical professionals would have enough. Americans are STILL being told the obvious untruth that “cloth face coverings work just as well unless you are a doctor.” Either cloth masks are as good as n95 masks, or they aren’t. The person wearing them doesn’t change the quality of the mask and its effectiveness.
Learning is a good thing. Lying is a bad thing.14 -
rheddmobile wrote: »The US has had conflicting information which created distrust. At first we were told not to wear masks because they didn't work, then we were told to wear them because they work, then we were told we were lied to at first because we didn't have enough masks. We've all seen this type of stuff on TV shows, just trying to keep people calm.
I've anonymized the quote, because I don't mean the reponse to be personal. This is a kind of idea I've seen fairly often, in various places, basically that the experts undermined people's confidence by changing their minds.
WTflippieDip?
Speaking for myself, I want experts to keep learning, and - if the things they learn lead them in this direction - to change their minds, admit they were wrong, and change their advice to us. That behavior increases my confidence in them.
The idea that an expert does (or ought to) know all the ins and outs up front, especially in a situation with important novel elements . . . I think that's wrong. They're regular humans, not omniscient god-like creatures. They learn and adjust (please!).
We can learn and adjust, too, if we can take that same posture, of trying to understand as more knowledge becomes available.
What's the alternative? Is someone just supposed to give us the right orders on day one, and we follow that directive blindly, even if it heads right over the cliff?
Sorry, I'm getting hyperbolic.
The problem with the mask messaging isn’t that the experts changed their minds but that they provided false information. It’s not news that masks prevent transmission of airborne viruses - Asian nations have done studies on it for decades. Americans were told they didn’t help not because the experts believed that and later changed their minds, but because they initially wanted the general public to stop stockpiling masks so that medical professionals would have enough. Americans are STILL being told the obvious untruth that “cloth face coverings work just as well unless you are a doctor.” Either cloth masks are as good as n95 masks, or they aren’t. The person wearing them doesn’t change the quality of the mask and its effectiveness.
Learning is a good thing. Lying is a bad thing.
First bolded: We disagree somewhat on this, as we have in the past. I think that's partially true. I think it's also partially true that initially, it was less evident how the virus was spread interpersonally. It would've been a good idea, then, IMO, to err on the side of caution and recommend homemade masks. I agree that concerns about mask supply were given too much weight (or maybe not "too much" given what happened with toilet paper, hand sanitizer, and (WTH?) bottled water, but that's another discussion.) I think human experts are also entitled to be mistaken, and even temporarily wrong-headed, though I find that less admirable than simple learning.
Second bolded: Maybe I'm viewing selectively, but I haven't seen anything like that recently at all. I've seen "less effective than N95 masks, but still meaningfully helpful; and homemade are easy to get". Locally, the health professionals were using home-made masks for a time (hospital system was accepting donations of them, and using them), when commercial masks were in critically short supply, so if behavior is an endorsement, that's an endorsement.
"Either cloth masks are as good as n95 masks, or they aren't" isn't IMO the way to look at it. The question is whether cloth masks are better than no masks. Isolation bubbles with microfiltered air supplies and hazmat suits would probably be more effective than n95 masks, but no one's suggesting that. Practicality is a dimension.13
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