Coronavirus prep
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ExistingFish wrote: »RE: Churches. A lot of people are upset that in guidance, it is "churches" or "churches and synagogues" - the word "mosque" is never used. They should either say "religious gatherings" or name them all. It gives the impression that some religions are allowed to continue their services and others are not. I don't think that is the point of the ruling, but it gives that impression to a lot of people. Some governors have said they will shut down churches permanently if they break guidelines. This isn't applied to businesses, so it feels they are singling out churches.
Our state government has put up "guidance" for religious groups, and "directives" for all other groups. He said he understands that the government should not be governing how people worship, but the state does have authority and power over all the other industries. I respect that.
My church (which is large) has more careful opening guidelines than the state. I respect that. We have a huge church (1,500 ish every Sunday, which is far above the 50 allowed right now). Our plan is to do online through May - with the last two weeks to have outdoor services at multiple locations (to keep them small, with pre-registration) the last two weeks in May in addition to the online services. If all holds well with recoveries and testing, we will resume in-person services in June - but 5-6 services per Sunday with online registration and social distancing to keep services small. Only limited children's activities (not announced yet, except morning day camp in late July).
ETA and if I understand correctly, our churches giving has either held steady or increased. Our church has also taken measures to reduce costs, not heating or cooling most of the building (which is large), etc. My giving is online, and nothing has changed because I'm still working.
FWIW:
In Michigan, the governor's executive orders seem to use the term "places of religious worship". I was unable to find a reference to "church" "synagogue" or "mosque" in the executive orders for Michigan.
The orders exempt religious organizations from penalties for non-compliance with certain aspects of the orders - that's how they're mentioned. Religious groups of nearly all types** have been not only following the executive orders, but supporting them. ( Michigan has a substantial Muslim population, alongside diverse other religious groups (some of which don't have "church" "synagogue" or "mosque" as the formal name for their places of worship).
A group of churches (I'm using the term used in news reports) sued the governor because the exemptions to orders do not protect individuals attending services from penalties, as I understand it. Plantiffs include Word of Life Christian Center Church; Whole Life Church, a Michigan Ecclesiastical Corporation; Northern Michigan Baptist Bible Church; and some named individuals, which suggests that "churches" was a suitable word, in this case.5 -
One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.
I'd guess I will fall somewhere between 1 and 2. I'm not going to run out and do all of the things, but I will definitely do more things. I will be getting a reservation at Bien Shur for my wife and I as soon as I can to belately celebrate my wife's birthday. We will be re-booking our hot air balloon ride that we had planned for my oldest back in March for his 10th birthday. I won't be going to my big box gym anytime soon...I will continue to train on Fridays at the small personal training gym my friends own. I won't be having any big parties, but I will be socializing more with friends and family. I won't be going to a movie theater anytime soon...not something we do a lot of anyway, but it will be awhile before I'm comfortable doing that...same for the trampoline parks and whatnot I often would take my kids to. I will likely avoid anything that I commonly think of as a pitre dish even in the best of times and will continue wearing a mask in situations like shopping where it can be more difficult to socially distance.4 -
I don't get why my previous comment was in the quote box when posted as it didn't appear to be so in the post itself.
You can edit your post and make sure that there is a [/ quote] before you start your own comments. I believe you might actually need TWO of them. Just type them in, preview and then Save Post when happy!
I think "preview" is only available during the initial creation of a post -- when you're editing, you have to save the changes and view the actual changed post, and then click edit again if you're not happy with the changes. At least that's my recollection using the website.
ETA: yep, just clicked edit on this post, and my only options are cancel and save post.
Edited one more time because just noticed that PAV's example of OPEN BRACKET / quote CLOSE BRACKET threw off the nesting. I'm going to insert a space and see if that fixes it.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
The position of the meat industry is that it is the personal lives of their workers that are creating the risk of infection, not workplace contact. Even assuming innovation can solve this problem, there has to be a desire to innovate. When your human workers are considered a cog that can be replaced once they're ill or injured, there isn't going to be innovation to protect them unless an outside force makes it happen. We're talking about an industry that already has one of the highest rates of workplace injury in the US -- that was before any of this happened.
The fact that people running things are too short-sighted to see the potential value of innovation in no way negates any of what I said.
And the position of the meat industry (and some politicians and Wisconsin Supreme Court justices) notwithstanding, it doesn't matter if the initial contact that brings the virus into the workplace occurred outside the workplace (that is, in fact, a truism, unless one thinks the coronavirus is spontaneously generating de novo within the plant). Working conditions that require close proximity to others for hours on hand will spread the virus through the workforce, and then back into the community when those workers go home, to the grocery store, and to whatever other businesses are open. If the government doesn't eventually shut down a plant that has become a hot spot, it will become difficult to find people to work under those conditions during a pandemic, even with high unemployment. Those plants have disproportionately immigrant workforces because it's hard to find Americans willing to work under those conditions, at those wages, even when there isn't a pandemic.
I'm not saying all that will be enough to inspire innovation, because the industry may just shrug and view it as a short-term problem that they can ride out. But it is a new external force.
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics. Additionally, I worked in several direct manufacturing rolls for a few months when our union was striking and management people had to spend time in the factory keeping production going.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
Did you recognize that my "Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics" was just a paraphrase of your suggestion that you could somehow tell from my comments whether I've been in a factory? And now you're doubling down with asking whether I have "any idea" what engineers and manufacturing engineers do? I'm surprised your 40 years of being "in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company" leaves you with the need to try to build yourself up by cutting other people down.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
I don't work in manufacturing, but my job does involve procuring equipment (automated and not) for warehouses and I can confirm that the timelines are long. Sourcing, approval, delivery, installation, integration, testing, training . . . . these all take place on a timeline that seemed incredibly long to me when I first began this kind of work and it involves integrating the work of so many different teams. Even for stuff that it seems like you'd just be able to bring into a site and plug in, it's never never never that easy.
Where in any of my posts have I said timelines are not long or that plant lines can be retooled over night? I just responded to someone who wanted to know why they were still working closely together in plants by pointing out that this is how they are designed to run and it would take innovation to change it. Innovation does not equal some minor change that can be accomplished overnight.
Edited to insert omitted "not"1 -
One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.
I guess I'm in group 2, since I don't have the elevated risk required to be in group 3 as defined. But I can't imagine going to eat in a restaurant or to a movie theater or sports venue any time in the foreseeable future. Maybe the gym when it reopens, if there's space enough to physically distance. I don't worry as much about touching things (like weight bars and plates) as some people do, since I would be washing my hands before and after. But if I can't find a time to go where there are few enough people that I don't feel like I'm breathing in whatever they've exhaled ... I can't see going to the gym either.
I feel bad for businesses, but not bad enough to risk catching a disease that could force me into complete self-isolation for weeks, damage almost any system in my body, leave me in an induced coma for weeks only to wake up to find myself unemployed and without health insurance, or possibly kill me.8 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
I don't work in manufacturing, but my job does involve procuring equipment (automated and not) for warehouses and I can confirm that the timelines are long. Sourcing, approval, delivery, installation, integration, testing, training . . . . these all take place on a timeline that seemed incredibly long to me when I first began this kind of work and it involves integrating the work of so many different teams. Even for stuff that it seems like you'd just be able to bring into a site and plug in, it's never never never that easy.
Where in any of my posts have I said timelines are not long or that plant lines can be retooled over night? I just responded to someone who wanted to know why they were still working closely together in plants by pointing out that this is how they are designed to run and it would take innovation to change it. Innovation does not equal some minor change that can be accomplished overnight.
Edited to insert omitted "not"
Your initial statement was "I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits."
The point is that even if the meat industry was highly motivated (they're not), it would take a long period of time to find and deliver these innovations you think will solve the problem. No innovation within the plants is going to do anything to protect worker lives or ensure a steady supply of meat today, when this problem is actually happening.
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics. Additionally, I worked in several direct manufacturing rolls for a few months when our union was striking and management people had to spend time in the factory keeping production going.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
Did you recognize that my "Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics" was just a paraphrase of your suggestion that you could somehow tell from my comments whether I've been in a factory? And now you're doubling down with asking whether I have "any idea" what engineers and manufacturing engineers do? I'm surprised your 40 years of being "in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company" leaves you with the need to try to build yourself up by cutting other people down.
Sorry didn't mean to hurt feelings, just from your comments it seemed that your background isn't in manufacturing/production.
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics. Additionally, I worked in several direct manufacturing rolls for a few months when our union was striking and management people had to spend time in the factory keeping production going.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
Did you recognize that my "Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics" was just a paraphrase of your suggestion that you could somehow tell from my comments whether I've been in a factory? And now you're doubling down with asking whether I have "any idea" what engineers and manufacturing engineers do? I'm surprised your 40 years of being "in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company" leaves you with the need to try to build yourself up by cutting other people down.
FWIW, both his posts struck me as unnecessarily patronizing. This has been an interesting thread I’m interested to see keep going. Best to avoid nit picking and certainly the put downs.10 -
ExistingFish wrote: »RE: Churches. A lot of people are upset that in guidance, it is "churches" or "churches and synagogues" - the word "mosque" is never used. They should either say "religious gatherings" or name them all. It gives the impression that some religions are allowed to continue their services and others are not. I don't think that is the point of the ruling, but it gives that impression to a lot of people. Some governors have said they will shut down churches permanently if they break guidelines. This isn't applied to businesses, so it feels they are singling out churches.
Our state government has put up "guidance" for religious groups, and "directives" for all other groups. He said he understands that the government should not be governing how people worship, but the state does have authority and power over all the other industries. I respect that.
My church (which is large) has more careful opening guidelines than the state. I respect that. We have a huge church (1,500 ish every Sunday, which is far above the 50 allowed right now). Our plan is to do online through May - with the last two weeks to have outdoor services at multiple locations (to keep them small, with pre-registration) the last two weeks in May in addition to the online services. If all holds well with recoveries and testing, we will resume in-person services in June - but 5-6 services per Sunday with online registration and social distancing to keep services small. Only limited children's activities (not announced yet, except morning day camp in late July).
ETA and if I understand correctly, our churches giving has either held steady or increased. Our church has also taken measures to reduce costs, not heating or cooling most of the building (which is large), etc. My giving is online, and nothing has changed because I'm still working.
FWIW:
In Michigan, the governor's executive orders seem to use the term "places of religious worship". I was unable to find a reference to "church" "synagogue" or "mosque" in the executive orders for Michigan.
Ours seems to be even more broad, simply (from the first one):
"Prohibited activities. All public and private gatherings of any number of people occurring outside a single household or living unit are prohibited, except for the limited purposes permitted by this Executive Order. Pursuant to current guidance from the CDC, any gathering of more than ten people is prohibited unless exempted by this Executive Order. Nothing in this Executive Order prohibits the gathering of members of a household or residence."
I don't see it specifically referencing religious gatherings at all, although it goes on to say that efforts to provide charitable works (such as feeding the hungry) by religious and non religious non profit organizations are essential.
A church in Rockford has sued, because they claim the gov was required to make religious services essential. Not because they claim to think that it applies only to some religious organizations and not others. (The idea that it would apply only to churches seems absurd to me and I'd never heard that. It sounds like something people would spread maliciously to rile people up rather than a reasonable belief. If anything, if orders specifically refer to churches or churches and synagogues, I'd think that was because of forgetting there are significant numbers of people of other religious here. Plus in the law "church and state" is shorthand for any religion/state issue, obviously not Christian specific.)
The Archdiocese had stopped public masses BEFORE our first order, as noted, but were leaving churches open at certain hours for private prayer (I tried to go to mine but hadn't realized the hours were limited by the church's choice). After the order they ceased that, but I'm not sure the order requires it (you could certainly social distance) and they certainly did not argue it was somehow offensive or improper. (My current parish does not do a streamed mass, but my last one does, as does the Cathedral here.)3 -
One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.
Yep, I'm calling 2020 the "Lost Year" too
5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »I don't get why my previous comment was in the quote box when posted as it didn't appear to be so in the post itself.
You can edit your post and make sure that there is a [/ quote] before you start your own comments. I believe you might actually need TWO of them. Just type them in, preview and then Save Post when happy!
I think "preview" is only available during the initial creation of a post -- when you're editing, you have to save the changes and view the actual changed post, and then click edit again if you're not happy with the changes. At least that's my recollection using the website.
ETA: yep, just clicked edit on this post, and my only options are cancel and save post.
Edited one more time because just noticed that PAV's example of OPEN BRACKET / quote CLOSE BRACKET threw off the nesting. I'm going to insert a space and see if that fixes it.
Having a [/ quote] in there would definitely throw things off when re-quoted! It didn't throw things off in my original post!
The post that prompted our comments needed TWO x [/ quote] (without the space) to fix the rat's nest!
And... you're right. When editing I guess you can't re-preview before saving!2 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.
I guess I'm in group 2, since I don't have the elevated risk required to be in group 3 as defined. But I can't imagine going to eat in a restaurant or to a movie theater or sports venue any time in the foreseeable future. Maybe the gym when it reopens, if there's space enough to physically distance. I don't worry as much about touching things (like weight bars and plates) as some people do, since I would be washing my hands before and after. But if I can't find a time to go where there are few enough people that I don't feel like I'm breathing in whatever they've exhaled ... I can't see going to the gym either.
Yeah, this is where I am too. Not sure about the gym (it will depend on circumstances), and I'm not paranoid about touching things for the same reasons, but not planning to flock back to the restaurants or crowded stores or any of my previously planned public gatherings, and I expect the latter will be canceled. I'll probably go to my office in June if they subsidize me parking (parking downtown here is really expensive) or I absolutely need to (same with May if I have a need to go as we are technically essential, and there are some things harder to do from home). It won't be all that heavily populated, so not hard to social distance. I'm not excited to ride public transit again so will be holding off on that. I think a lot of businesses if allowed to open all the way may find it not worth the costs, at least here, as I think the customer flow will be low.
I was participating in a group I'm in (that normally meets in person) by Zoom today, and some suggested we might be able to meet in person by July, but most (admittedly some are older) said it would be more likely to be when there's snow on the ground. And that assumes there's not a huge seasonal aspect to this and we don't have a repeat of the Spanish flu pattern. I have a ton of depositions in June also, and have talked to people all over the country, and so far no one expects or wants that those should go forward in person or that any business traveling will be occurring.6 -
This news article has an interesting graphic to show Covid-19 daily deaths compared to other leading causes of death.
https://www.ketv.com/article/coronavirus-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-united-states/32380058?fbclid=IwAR0e55H7_PtwjICSDBgP8kIkVB0FmHF8AtAOTnxLNIi6DX761rHWe2KNJK4#8 -
My state is supposed to be having very limited opening of curbside pickup for some retail and manufacturing...starting yesterday. That's the extent of the reopening. My neighborhood seems to have gone crazy. Half the restaurants are blatantly open today (a couple have been secretly open throughout this) and curbside pickup of retail seems to mean shops put all their wares out on the sidewalk for outside shopping. It's like the 4th of July weekend in my little beach town today.4
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It makes me both sad and angry that some of the people I know are more focused on finding ways to circumvent the existing rules, than to follow them in order to keep themselves (and everyone else around them) as safe as possible.
Sorry about the rant, I just needed to vent.
18 -
RE: Churches. A lot of people are upset that in guidance, it is "churches" or "churches and synagogues" - the word "mosque" is never used. They should either say "religious gatherings" or name them all. It gives the impression that some religions are allowed to continue their services and others are not. I don't think that is the point of the ruling, but it gives that impression to a lot of people. Some governors have said they will shut down churches permanently if they break guidelines. This isn't applied to businesses, so it feels they are singling out churches.
Our state government has put up "guidance" for religious groups, and "directives" for all other groups. He said he understands that the government should not be governing how people worship, but the state does have authority and power over all the other industries. I respect that.
Yes i think they should use a general all encompassing term like Religious gatherings, in a secular country.
but which people are upset?? -the mosque attenders or the church attenders??
Here in Australia the rules are about 'Places of worship' and 'Religious gatherings'.
It does not matter nor is it stipulated whether the place is a church, mosque, temple, synagogue, anything else or the gathering is for Easter, Ramadan, Passover, Arrival of flying spaghetti monster.
What your beliefs are and what you want to celebrate is irelevant - No Gatherings.
(now changing to 10 people at a time)7 -
Arrival of flying spaghetti monster. I love it!5
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T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »This news article has an interesting graphic to show Covid-19 daily deaths compared to other leading causes of death.
https://www.ketv.com/article/coronavirus-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-united-states/32380058?fbclid=IwAR0e55H7_PtwjICSDBgP8kIkVB0FmHF8AtAOTnxLNIi6DX761rHWe2KNJK4#
This article made me think about one I read several weeks ago which talked about (and had a graph depicting) the uptick in COVID19 deaths mirroring an uptick in total deaths. I went looking for it to share, and managed not to find it, but I did find this one which is almost as interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-death-toll-us.html5
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