Coronavirus prep
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Lillymoo01 wrote: »I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.
I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil. I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.
What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess.
I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even
imagine?
I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.
But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.
Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it. Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous.
I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.
Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it.
https://www.facebook.com/abdu.sharkawy/posts/2809958409125474?__tn__=,dH-R-R&eid=ARBOWPj71gA1ObjfZlXOXyWThC52Mt6U38slWK3w0VkylOu5m39gyZVqWSJaqVPpIimUaGEaEddG7DxN
I can't like this post enough. Thanks!
6 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.
I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil. I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.
What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess.
I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even
imagine?
I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.
But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.
Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it. Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous.
I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.
Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it.
https://www.facebook.com/abdu.sharkawy/posts/2809958409125474?__tn__=,dH-R-R&eid=ARBOWPj71gA1ObjfZlXOXyWThC52Mt6U38slWK3w0VkylOu5m39gyZVqWSJaqVPpIimUaGEaEddG7DxN
I can't like this post enough. Thanks!
Agreed, thanks @Lillymoo01 for your insightful, thought provoking and logic grounding words.
I would love to share some of them on other social media channels as I think your advice could really resonate with a lot of people but obviously would share it as “quoted from a doctor specializing in infectious diseases on another social media forum” but would only do so with your blessing.
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Lillymoo01 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »NewLIFEstyle4ME wrote: »"The American people don't believe anything until they see it on television."
Richard Nixon
Propaganda is amazing. People can be led to believe anything.
Alice Walker
"If people in the media cannot decide whether they are in the business of reporting news or manufacturing propaganda, it is all the more important that the public understand that difference, and choose their news sources accordingly."
Thomas Sowell
"All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume."
Noam Chomsky
“Whatever of social importance is done today, whether in politics, finance, manufacture, agriculture, charity, education, or other fields, must be done with the help of propaganda.”
― Edward L. Bernays, Propaganda
"Art and mass entertainment and propaganda, they can all be plotted on the same graph, but there is a difference".
David Mamet
ETA:
Thesaurus.com
SYNONYMS
propaganda
[ prop-uh-gan-duh ]
SEE DEFINITION OF propaganda
noun information that is designed to mislead or persuade
Synonyms for propaganda
disinformation
hype
indoctrination
publicity
advertising
agitprop
announcement
brainwashing
doctrine
evangelism
handout
hogwash
implantation
inculcation
newspeak
promotion
promulgation
proselytism
publication
Soooo, you think the whole thing is made up, @NewLIFEstyle4ME? Overstated? What exactly is your point here?
I'd say that the media are building a panic to create more sensational stories. A story that gets a reaction is one that sells. Coronavirus is not made up, coronavirus can kill. However, the world won't end, more people are affected by and die from the flu. There is no need to go out and buy a year's supply of non-perishables because of it. There is no reason to avoid all social contact because 1 person in your state has a confirmed diagnosis. Simply take all precautions you should already be taking to improve personal hygiene and stop the spread of all infections.
To the bolded: What I don't get is people buying massive quantities of bottled water. Do they think the virus can be spread through the taps?
My thoughts on the panic hoarding of stuff is this:
Yes, it might be a good idea to make sure you have things like meds and non-perishable food on hand for at least 2 weeks in case you have to go into quarantine. I get that. But the rest? The panic buying of stuff like toilet paper with people getting more than the average family could possibly go through in more than a year?
What I think we're seeing is humanity at a pretty primal level. This virus is, for obvious reasons, scaring people badly. Whether or not that is warranted is a very moot point. But bottom line, people are feeling helpless, powerless and desperately afraid. And seeing that they can't do anything about it on a large scale, the primal instinct is to control what they can control. Circle the wagons, so to speak. They see on the news and social media that people are panic-buying water, toilet paper, hand wipes, sanitizer, masks, food, etc. Without stopping to rationalize to what degree this is needed, (if at all!) their immediate response is, "I gotta go get this stuff!" because to *not* do so means that they have failed to provide for themselves and their families. And if 3 months worth of toilet paper is good, isn't 2 year's worth better?
Bottom line, I think it's more of a psychological comfort than an actual physical necessity.
Our family lived through a SARS quarantine. Twice!
This was back in the day before grocery stores routinely had a home delivery service. We were fine. The water out of the tap was plentiful. I always keep a well-stocked pantry, and although depleted after a month in isolation, we certainly didn't starve. It was a *very* long month psychologically, but we certainly didn't suffer any deprivation. And, thankfully, we were all SARS-free.7 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.
I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil. I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.
What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess.
I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even
imagine?
I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.
But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.
Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it. Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous.
I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.
Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it.
https://www.facebook.com/abdu.sharkawy/posts/2809958409125474?__tn__=,dH-R-R&eid=ARBOWPj71gA1ObjfZlXOXyWThC52Mt6U38slWK3w0VkylOu5m39gyZVqWSJaqVPpIimUaGEaEddG7DxN
I can't like this post enough. Thanks!
Wow! Who can possibly disagree with this?
Trolling.1 -
It’s my understanding that the toilet paper shortage scare came from a report that companies like proctor and gamble would soon have to slow production of certain products due to factories in China being shut down. And not necessarily for the actual product, which might be manufactured here, but for some of the things that go into making those products, if some of the materials have to come from China. In any case, I’m not sure why it’s only tp that people are buying up—I guess that’s one thing people sat for a moment and thought, “Hmmm, napkins at the dinner table we can go without, but toilet paper??? Yikes!” I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, just that I think that’s how it started. Hand sanitizer I think is more obvious, and more helpful in preventing spread of diseases. We could not find hand sanitizer, but oh well! If schools close and events are canceled and we’re all encouraged to avoid going out, I guess we won’t need it much!
I don’t worry too much about me or my immediate family contracting this virus, but I do have parents in their 60’s, and other extended family older than that. Any kind of blasé attitude about spreading this virus does seem to put them in more danger. I know, the flu is similar, but they’ve managed to avoid, or survive the flu, so far. This is a new, novel, mostly unresearched virus, and there are still many questions about it and how it will play out. There are already two strains of it being reported—could it perhaps mutate again into something worse (or better)?
So I’m not into extreme fear mongering, but I do think it’s a serious situation, particularly for a subset of the population (so far). To say that this virus could just come through our country and not have much effect (as a PP upthread insinuated) I think is pretty disrespectful of that more at-risk, older, or compromised population. We’ve “only” had 15 or so deaths in the US due to it, but most of those were older people with underlying conditions. Should we not be concerned at least for them?
I don’t quite understand the constant comparison between COVID-19 and the flu. Yes, they’re both viruses, and yes, the flu kills and always has. But it’s been researched top to bottom, there’s a vaccine that most people can get if they wish, etc. Besides, any mortality that comes from COVID-19 is on top of flu deaths, so I do think that’s a factor to consider. This is a different virus, and a lot is still unknown.
Someone asked why the mention of Australia was relevant. I believe the question was whether or not COVID-19 spread would slow with warmer weather coming. Someone else said that since it’s the end of summer in Australia (and therefore has been warm there) but the virus is still spreading there, that maybe the warm weather won’t actually help. I can’t tell how much it’s spread there actually in Australia, as opposed to those who contracted it on cruise ships or in more northern countries.
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I’ll just add that my family was thinking of going to the Lego convention being held in our area this weekend. The website for the event mentions some things they plan on doing and changing in order to help prevent the potential spread of Coronavirus (there have been a couple cases in our area). Again, not as worried about us contracting something, I was willing to go, but hubby is more wary.
Upon further thought, I’m going with my husband on this one, and we’re not going. My parents will be visiting us next week, and I don’t want us to be harboring it and getting them sick, when it can easily be avoided. Sure, they could catch it somewhere else, but why add to the risk when it’s fairly easy to avoid by just not going? Unfortunately this kind of action will have effects on these large events, and of course, many have been or will be canceled. But I guess until we see how this plays out, caution is important, and all kinds of businesses will be affected.
Eh, I’m just blabbering at this point 🤪3 -
Anyway, I legit needed toilet paper, so I grabbed some at Walmart (no shortage here BTW). But I felt like I wanted to tell everyone I walked past " I'm not hoarding it! I just ran out of toilet paper. Look, I'm getting eyeliner and a pint of Ben & Jerry's I'm going to eat right when I get home."
I'm finally buying it today because I need it too, and plan to get some extra because it's nice to have plenty around the house to avoid having to ever be low on it, and similarly I am afraid it will look like hoarding. Oh, well. ;-)3 -
paperpudding wrote: »There have been 2 confirmed cases in my state and yet all the supermarkets in my regional town, far from the cases, have sold out of toilet paper - why do people need a years supply of toilet paper???
Hand sanitiser sold out too - but that makes bit more sense. But whole aisles totally bereft of toilet paper???
I haven't heard of anyone having trouble buying toilet paper here, but lots of places are sold out of sanitizer. I normally am someone who doesn't use sanitizer (kind of the same theory that Ann mentioned above) but I'd buy it now if I saw it -- I really don't consider my thinking about buying some "panic" though, as some here seem to have a much lower threshold for what panic is that I do, I guess. ;-)4 -
Biggiwig69 wrote: »
I'm wondering why is everyone stockpiling toilet paper?!?! That is selling out as quick as water around here!
Funny, I work at Wegmans (East Coast). Toilet paper is flying off the shelves. What are people doing with this? It‘s ridiculous. And then these facial mask shoppers.... ong! I feel like I am in the middle of a science fiction movie 😀
Have you seen anyone wearing a mask? I've seen one -- a bus driver. I actually saw more before this virus in that I live close to a neighborhood with a significant Asian population and it's not uncommon for Asians to wear them IME (my understanding is that the point is to protect others if you happen to have a cold or something).2 -
I went to a party last night. Everyone was avoiding shaking hands or cheek kisses doing friendly waves instead. It was kinda good. Also before grabbing pizza people were washing hands. It was great.11
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So where I live in Wisconsin, the local public health department has been issuing regular updates and urging sensible supply prep like we would do for a big snowstorm. I haven't noticed anything besides hand sanitizer being bought out at the store. Over the last couple of weeks I have been sure to keep "one ahead" on the staples - usually as spring approaches we just eat our way through the pantry. I appreciate peoples' good humor and even-keel approach to this.4
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At this point, no one has all of the answers. No one can make prognostications about the weather or what kind of weather this thing likes or dislikes. It's brand new but hopefully we'll be much smarter when the next pathogen shows up.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/as-coronavirus-spreads-many-questions-and-some-answers-2020022719004#q5
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@moonangel12
How are your kids doing? Did they agree to test them?
I hope they are on the mend. :flowerforyou:0 -
I went to a party last night. Everyone was avoiding shaking hands or cheek kisses doing friendly waves instead. It was kinda good. Also before grabbing pizza people were washing hands. It was great.
I r.e.a.l.l.y. hope this starts to end all the touching between people in general.
Enough with your hugging, virtual strangers. Ick and ugh.16 -
Anyway, I legit needed toilet paper, so I grabbed some at Walmart (no shortage here BTW). But I felt like I wanted to tell everyone I walked past " I'm not hoarding it! I just ran out of toilet paper. Look, I'm getting eyeliner and a pint of Ben & Jerry's I'm going to eat right when I get home."
I need to get groceries today, and I thought I would get a little extra TP to have a couple weeks' supply on hand, because we do have a family member with a high-risk condition. I am already feeling self-conscious and wanting to explain myself to people! I don't anticipate a shortage where I am.
Now you've got me wondering if there are people out there hoarding beauty supplies. 2 -
WinoGelato wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.
I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil. I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.
What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess.
I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even
imagine?
I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.
But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.
Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it. Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous.
I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.
Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it.
https://www.facebook.com/abdu.sharkawy/posts/2809958409125474?__tn__=,dH-R-R&eid=ARBOWPj71gA1ObjfZlXOXyWThC52Mt6U38slWK3w0VkylOu5m39gyZVqWSJaqVPpIimUaGEaEddG7DxN
I can't like this post enough. Thanks!
Agreed, thanks @Lillymoo01 for your insightful, thought provoking and logic grounding words.
I would love to share some of them on other social media channels as I think your advice could really resonate with a lot of people but obviously would share it as “quoted from a doctor specializing in infectious diseases on another social media forum” but would only do so with your blessing.
These aren't my words. If you open the link the source is there.1 -
lightenup2016 wrote: »So I’m not into extreme fear mongering, but I do think it’s a serious situation, particularly for a subset of the population (so far). To say that this virus could just come through our country and not have much effect (as a PP upthread insinuated) I think is pretty disrespectful of that more at-risk, older, or compromised population. We’ve “only” had 15 or so deaths in the US due to it, but most of those were older people with underlying conditions. Should we not be concerned at least for them?
I agree with this. I don't see a lot of panic around me (and the hoarding seems mostly to be revealed in a lack of hand sanitizer, as I said). I also don't go on FB or other social media where I'd see it, probably. (My social media has been way more dominated by the Dem primaries, which is annoying in a different way.)
We did have our governor do an update that I thought was fine -- it was about common sense things and testing. The biggest thing that's been happening that some might call "panic" is the cancelling of some huge events (a few conventions here, which isn't ideal for the local economy, things like ComicCon and SXSW, the latter of which is probably not good news for Austin's economy). Also, limiting work travel at a lot of places. However, I don't see that as a negative thing -- one thing that's been pointed out is that because it's going to be mild for lots of healthy people, they may not know they have it at all, and it's contagious before any symptoms anyway, I think. So you run a risk of more getting infected than need to, which is bad for those in higher risk groups.
Maybe those who think panic is a serious problem are seeing different things than I am or perhaps merely meaning to try to head off future panic. On the whole I've found the discussion on this thread quite level-headed, for example.6 -
I would actually think people would be going through less hand sanitizer, if they are staying home more and avoiding public events?1
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One other thing I don’t think we’ve touched on much in this thread is the economic impact this will have, particularly on small business owners reliant on travel and tourism directly and indirectly.
A colleague shared the story of the shoe shine guy at the airport hawking the corona special - buy one foot shine get the other for free. She stopped and asked how it was going and he said if things don’t turn around soon he will be forced to pack up.
Another colleague in Milan shared concerns that all the cafes and shops are closed - Italy relies almost exclusively on tourism.10 -
WinoGelato wrote: »One other thing I don’t think we’ve touched on much in this thread is the economic impact this will have, particularly on small business owners reliant on travel and tourism directly and indirectly.
A colleague shared the story of the shoe shine guy at the airport hawking the corona special - buy one foot shine get the other for free. She stopped and asked how it was going and he said if things don’t turn around soon he will be forced to pack up.
Another colleague in Milan shared concerns that all the cafes and shops are closed - Italy relies almost exclusively on tourism.
Was on the news yesterday.. some tourist spots are like ghost town.. hell .. they even show a modeling show in milan.. girls walking on catwalks and no guest..2
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