Coronavirus prep
Replies
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spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.4 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.
Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.)
Also, I think you should keep in mind that even though it seems like a long time that Europe has had more open borders between countries, there was a long preceding history of closed borders with somewhat limited access points.
The US has never had closed borders between states (that I'm aware of - other than during the civil war - in any systematic way). It would simply be completely unenforceable to tell people the state was closed. (Some states are requiring something like quarantines of those changing states, but that's not particularly enforceable, either.)
In the more populous states - and I don't just mean East and West coast ones - there are hundreds of roads that cross state lines. In my part of the country (Michigan, Great Lakes area) it's quite common for there to be roads on 1 mile grid lines nearly everywhere, even in the rural areas, and frequently there are roads within those grids, too. Near borders, people routinely work in one state, work or shop in another - in some cases, the nearest urban area in the "home" state is much further away than one in a neighboring state. Major metropolitan areas sprawl uninterrupted across multiple states, the city streets completely interconnected at pretty much every block as if one city (yes, the cities are usually governmentally separate, but completely contiguous). Commonly, we don't even think of states as having borders: We call them "state lines", similar to "county lines" or "city limits".
There is no practical way to limit movement between states, except by requesting it of the populace. Even if someone had the power, it would be absurdly unenforceable, and in many cases have very major negative economic consequences in itself. (Even the border closure with Canada has exceptions for essential workers, and that's been a pain point in some areas, but at least there are generally limited/defined crossing points as an enforcement mechanism.)
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spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.
Internal travel is huge and to shut it down 911 style long enough to slow the virus spread would leave grocery stores without food. Some do not have 60 day supply of food and TP at home.
Governors are not about to force their states to actually shut down due to their dependency tax generation and prevent civil unrest. There's no one in the USA that can order anyone to take any Covid-19 vaccines since none have full FDA approval because all are still in early mass testing phase. Bill Gates just stated we are stuck in this Pandemic until summer 2022. Mental health can't survive 18 months of more lockdown.4 -
There won't be enough vaccine for everyone for a long time. So, you don't want to take it? Good...7
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spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.
I live in Europe and find that it's hard for people to understand the United States and how it works. There are no borders or control points between States, but they have State governments that control certain aspects and are very different from one State to another. The Federal government controls other aspects overall. For instance, there are Federal highways and then there are State highways---as they say, it's complicated. COVID has shown the weaknesses in different systems. Those won't change. Things are too far gone. The best we can hope for is a future plan for an event of this magnitude. As I said in the beginning--we were caught with our pants down. Let's not let it happen again.11 -
Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.5 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
I think part of the problem in the USA is the amount of internal travel on a daily basis. If some locations are doing it right, and others are not, there will still be constant transmission via persons who are moving around the country.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
Of course there's also no single authority in the United States that can tell every single American citizen to take the COVID19 vaccine when it becomes available either. Will see where that leads.
Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.)
Also, I think you should keep in mind that even though it seems like a long time that Europe has had more open borders between countries, there was a long preceding history of closed borders with somewhat limited access points.
The US has never had closed borders between states (that I'm aware of - other than during the civil war - in any systematic way). It would simply be completely unenforceable to tell people the state was closed. (Some states are requiring something like quarantines of those changing states, but that's not particularly enforceable, either.)
In the more populous states - and I don't just mean East and West coast ones - there are hundreds of roads that cross state lines. In my part of the country (Michigan, Great Lakes area) it's quite common for there to be roads on 1 mile grid lines nearly everywhere, even in the rural areas, and frequently there are roads within those grids, too. Near borders, people routinely work in one state, work or shop in another - in some cases, the nearest urban area in the "home" state is much further away than one in a neighboring state. Major metropolitan areas sprawl uninterrupted across multiple states, the city streets completely interconnected at pretty much every block as if one city (yes, the cities are usually governmentally separate, but completely contiguous). Commonly, we don't even think of states as having borders: We call them "state lines", similar to "county lines" or "city limits".
There is no practical way to limit movement between states, except by requesting it of the populace. Even if someone had the power, it would be absurdly unenforceable, and in many cases have very major negative economic consequences in itself. (Even the border closure with Canada has exceptions for essential workers, and that's been a pain point in some areas, but at least there are generally limited/defined crossing points as an enforcement mechanism.)
All this. While I think Australia's model has a lot we ought to have done too, I think the controlling travel between states element is one that we simply practically could not have done given the much larger number of states and how densely interconnected most of them are, as well tradition as Ann explains above.5 -
We have bars closed in Minnesota. Wisconsin does not. The metro area of Minneapolis/St. Paul borders Wisconsin. Last week, the mayor of a WI border town closed bars at 10 pm to discourage Minnesotans from traveling to WI to visit their bars. According to the mayor, most patrons arrive after 10. The problems interstate travel present are apparent during covid. It’s hard to enforce edicts with differing policies. That some people are in still in denial, exacerbates the problem.
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I've mentioned many times our older friends down the street. They are the only ones we've socialized with as we both take serious precautions and never go without masks or eat inside restaurants.
Both my wife and our female friend worked in the dental field as assistants and in offices in the past. The lady, who is in her late 70s, called us last night and was crying. Her long time friend, the dentist she worked with for years back in TX, has Covid-19 now and is not doing well. She's in her mid 50s with no preexisting conditions. Just intubated and all vital signs not promising. She treated a patient, with PPE on, the day before Thanksgiving. Had Thanksgiving with all her kids and grandkids, who now all have it as well. She's hopeful she can recover but it's very concerning for her. Her friend asked the nurse to take a video because she's concerned she won't make it. So that's how our friend found out. She woke up and had an email with a video, basically her friend saying goodbye to all her good friends, from an ICU bed with no family.30 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »In states that have very high compliance with mask orders (i.e. California) there is still a huge increase in cases. It may be that people are complying when in public, but are having many more small gatherings in private that are spreading the virus. One study said that less than 2% of the transmissions could be traced to restaurants. A lot more were from family gatherings, and that was before Thanksgiving.
The European Union is similar in size to the USA, but they limited movement between their countries when infection rates were high. Australia also restricted movement across state borders to prevent spread. No such luck in the United States, because there seems to be no single authority that can tell ALL the states what to do.
True, but, some of our governors are doing their best. There has never been any national policy that has slowed down the spread. It’s apparent how that has worked out.4 -
paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.10 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
I live in Illinois in the US. For our non-US friends Illinois is bordered by 4 states, Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky and Missouri. The western boarder with Missouri is the Mississippi river so access is limited due to the need for bridges. For the remainder of Illinois' other boarders. as mentioned there is generally a road every mile that connects with adjoining states. Given this situation there are over 400 points where a road enters Illinois from a neighboring state. You could possibly monitor the Interstates, (red lines on the map, similar to the Motorway in GB) but not all of the other 400+ entry points.
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
As was explained well above, the US can't do that.
I live in NW Iowa. Peoe here have doctors in Nebraska and South Dakota. Also, a lot of people live in one state and work in either of the two adjoining states. You can't keep these people from their work or doctors. Right now, patients are being sent to Omaha or Sioux Falls to hospitals if there is no room for them locally. Bow would these people get to these other hospitals.
I guess if you live in your own lite bubble, you just can't understand.12 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
I live in Illinois in the US. For our non-US friends Illinois is bordered by 4 states, Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky and Missouri. The western boarder with Missouri is the Mississippi river so access is limited due to the need for bridges. For the remainder of Illinois' other boarders. as mentioned there is generally a road every mile that connects with adjoining states. Given this situation there are over 400 points where a road enters Illinois from a neighboring state. You could possibly monitor the Interstates, (red lines on the map, similar to the Motorway in GB) but not all of the other 400+ entry points.
Why do you hate our Iowa neighbors?
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
I live in Illinois in the US. For our non-US friends Illinois is bordered by 4 states, Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky and Missouri. The western boarder with Missouri is the Mississippi river so access is limited due to the need for bridges. For the remainder of Illinois' other boarders. as mentioned there is generally a road every mile that connects with adjoining states. Given this situation there are over 400 points where a road enters Illinois from a neighboring state. You could possibly monitor the Interstates, (red lines on the map, similar to the Motorway in GB) but not all of the other 400+ entry points.
I can't believe you forgot Iowa! (Otherwise I agree with everything you said.)
I'd add that it's not the size of the US relative to Australia, but -- among other things -- the number of states, as well as the intense interconnectedness for most of us, and the particular manner in which the population is spread out in much of the country. A comparison with England and its borders with Wales and Scotland is not at all comparable either.8 -
Heh, I spent too much time on my second paragraph, and you beat me to it!4
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SuzySunshine99 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
I live in Illinois in the US. For our non-US friends Illinois is bordered by 4 states, Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky and Missouri. The western boarder with Missouri is the Mississippi river so access is limited due to the need for bridges. For the remainder of Illinois' other boarders. as mentioned there is generally a road every mile that connects with adjoining states. Given this situation there are over 400 points where a road enters Illinois from a neighboring state. You could possibly monitor the Interstates, (red lines on the map, similar to the Motorway in GB) but not all of the other 400+ entry points.
Why do you hate our Iowa neighbors?
LOL haste makes waste. Yes Iowa does border Illinois.1 -
We’re in the same boat - we live in a tiny branch of WV, bordered by Maryland and Virginia... you cross borders multiple times going pretty much anywhere it seems. Most people work in a different state than what they live in (our area is a “bedroom community” for people that work in Washington DC - they commute and hour and a half one way, but cost of living is far cheaper on this side of the mountain). Further complicating things is my husband now drives a company vehicle which has plates from a state 6 hours away! Early on in COVID when there were many unknowns he and his employees carried paperwork from the company stating their purpose for being out of state, but it never became much of an issue. I think Maryland had stricter laws, but we stick to WV and VA for most everything. 20-30 minutes could take us to 4 different states!4
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"But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing."
Rennie, what? They are NOT doing what they should be doing. Everyone there is wearing masks, not going to parties and weddings etc... ? Sorry but that is not correct. If they were it wouldn't be spreading like it is. One of my USA friends told me this week a guy he works with is going to a wedding with around a hundred people there. That is crazy. The couple hosting it for one could have put it off till the vaccine is out and just had a very tiny wedding with maybe just their parents for now if they are in a rush. Apparently many don't care if half their guests end up in hospital or dead as long as they have a party. Selfish? Yes. I have no idea why it's allowed. It wouldn't be here if we had high numbers of people dying.
You could be right, I could be wrong, but that's not how I interpreted Reenie's question, in context, when she wrote:I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I read that (paraphrasing) as "Wouldn't the masks, social distancing and staying home reduce flu spread this year? But if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing, why is Covid so bad?"
IOW, I took that part you quoted out of context as a counterfactual, implying "but I guess people must not be doing enough of the right things, or Covid wouldn't be so bad".
Like I said, maybe I'm interpreting wrong.
Thank you.
I *know* people aren't following the mask and social distancing recommendations. 
I see it. 2 -
I suppose it would be possible to stop people at borders, leaving and entering states, but logistically a nightmare for law enforcement. It’s done in states bordering Canada and Mexico, with varying degrees of success. Minnesota has miles of natural waterway borders, various rivers, and Lake Superior, that we share with Canada, No Dak, & Wisconsin, where there is limited bridge access to other jurisdictions. There are also a lot of miles of borders with abundant road access to our neighboring states, So Dak, No Dak, Iowa, Wisconsin and Canada. Multiply that times 50. Not an easy, nor inexpensive task. Millions of miles of roads in the US.
All of our individual states are part of the whole country. Governed by federal, state, and local jurisdictions. It would be a much better solution to have had a federal mandate from the beginning. Hindsight is 20/20, but, we may have had a much different outcome than the “over by Easter” (04/10/20) that we heard 9 months ago.4 -
missysippy930 wrote: »I suppose it would be possible to stop people at borders, leaving and entering states, but logistically a nightmare for law enforcement. It’s done in states bordering Canada and Mexico, with varying degrees of success. Minnesota has miles of natural waterway borders, various rivers, and Lake Superior, that we share with Canada, No Dak, & Wisconsin, where there is limited bridge access to other jurisdictions. There are also a lot of miles of borders with abundant road access to our neighboring states, So Dak, No Dak, Iowa, Wisconsin and Canada. Multiply that times 50. Not an easy, nor inexpensive task. Millions of miles of roads in the US.
All of our individual states are part of the whole country. Governed by federal, state, and local jurisdictions. It would be a much better solution to have had a federal mandate from the beginning. Hindsight is 20/20, but, we may have had a much different outcome than the “over by Easter” (04/10/20) that we heard 9 months ago.
Exactly.
Since March, apparently if we were "really trying" enough, we would have hired something from thousands to tens (hundreds?) of thousands of new state-border guards, trained them, put up many thousands of barricades to close roads (don't know what we do about the very common ORVs and privately-owned boats, not to mention cyclists/pedestrians), and closed those state borders . . . a thing for which we have neither precedent nor obvious legal structure.
That, in parallel with trying to hire and train something like tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of contract tracers (estimated in itself, under one proposal, to cost something like $12 billion).
Ooookaaaayyyyyyy.6 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Yes, the US governance system is relatively decentralized, compared to some other places, but without the power over interstate borders that EU members exercise. (I can't speak to the relationship of states to the federal government in other large places like Australia, legally or geographically.
In Australia the state borders were not closed by the federal government, Scott Morrison the prime minister, was in opposition but state premiers over rode that , the premiers of each state made decisions to close state borders and to whom ( some states were open to other safe states at different times but not all to other states)
There were some exceptions for essential travellers like truck drivers and people could apply for exemptions on compassionate grounds
Not sure what you mean by geographically ?? Other than Tasmania which is an island, states are geographically connected.
So how do the premiers of the states enforce closing state borders?
As has been mentioned a few times earlier, in the US is is common to have literally 100's of roads crossing state borders. Impossible to control/monitor all of them.
Think of the slightly confusing issue of England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. I remember reading this story https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/29/couple-stopped-driving-to-wales-to-deliver-christmas-presents-13672924/ at the end of last month. An English couple was driving along a road which crossed the border into Wales and was stopped and asked to turn back, as their trip was not based on a "reasonable excuse".
I know the USA is larger than Australia, and I've always heard Australia is 32 times the size of England, so maybe I should stop hoping the United States would do what was done at that England and Wales border. But it really isn't right to declare a failure if you haven't tried. And I don't think the United States really tried very hard.
I'd stop hoping--never going to happen. Maybe you should think about why the pandemic wasn't squelched or isolated a little more quickly at it's origins. We can all play the "what if" and "hoping" game, but it just gets us back to where we are.7 -
So I had to go to a bigger grocery store today (Meijer) because I needed some stuff that my normal weekly stores do not carry (Aldi and Fresh Thyme). It was horrible. SO many employees and vendors not wearing masks, not wearing them correctly, or not social distancing... or a mix. I have already sent an email to corporate, but knowing that they just don't seem to care means I won't be going back. And I will be telling as many people as possible.
Good for you for complaining to corporate. That reminds me, I need to complain to Home Depot about the same but all I can find for an email is Law Enforcement Inquiries:
https://www.homedepot.com/c/Contact_Us1 -
I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<
We haven't needed to use masks too much in most of Australia but I did hear flu numbers were way down this winter so I'd say more people got the flu vaccine. I did and made sure all my family did as well.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<
We haven't needed to use masks too much in most of Australia but I did hear flu numbers were way down this winter so I'd say more people got the flu vaccine. I did and made sure all my family did as well.
'Flu numbers were massively down for New Zealand, too. I believe it was put down to:
a) we went into lockdown right at the beginning of 'flu season;
b) more people got vaccinated; and
c) we we came out of hibernation, everyone was hyper aware of hand sanitation and physical distancing.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018767843/near-extinction-of-influenza-in-nz-as-numbers-drop-due-to-lockdown10 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<
We haven't needed to use masks too much in most of Australia but I did hear flu numbers were way down this winter so I'd say more people got the flu vaccine. I did and made sure all my family did as well.
'Flu numbers were massively down for New Zealand, too. I believe it was put down to:
a) we went into lockdown right at the beginning of 'flu season;
b) more people got vaccinated; and
c) we we came out of hibernation, everyone was hyper aware of hand sanitation and physical distancing.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018767843/near-extinction-of-influenza-in-nz-as-numbers-drop-due-to-lockdown
Yes, and I also think there has been a big shift to actually staying home when sick. Quite a culture change from just toughing it out. I guess Coldral will have to come up with a new jingle... 😉6 -
missysippy930 wrote: »I suppose it would be possible to stop people at borders, leaving and entering states, but logistically a nightmare for law enforcement. It’s done in states bordering Canada and Mexico, with varying degrees of success. Minnesota has miles of natural waterway borders, various rivers, and Lake Superior, that we share with Canada, No Dak, & Wisconsin, where there is limited bridge access to other jurisdictions. There are also a lot of miles of borders with abundant road access to our neighboring states, So Dak, No Dak, Iowa, Wisconsin and Canada. Multiply that times 50. Not an easy, nor inexpensive task. Millions of miles of roads in the US.
All of our individual states are part of the whole country. Governed by federal, state, and local jurisdictions. It would be a much better solution to have had a federal mandate from the beginning. Hindsight is 20/20, but, we may have had a much different outcome than the “over by Easter” (04/10/20) that we heard 9 months ago.
Exactly.
Since March, apparently if we were "really trying" enough, we would have hired something from thousands to tens (hundreds?) of thousands of new state-border guards, trained them, put up many thousands of barricades to close roads (don't know what we do about the very common ORVs and privately-owned boats, not to mention cyclists/pedestrians), and closed those state borders . . . a thing for which we have neither precedent nor obvious legal structure.
That, in parallel with trying to hire and train something like tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of contract tracers (estimated in itself, under one proposal, to cost something like $12 billion).
Ooookaaaayyyyyyy.
Just to give you a little insight from a small European country (Belgium), surrounded by the big ones: Germany, France and the Netherlands and across the Channel the UK. Since March, our borders are closed (they were open when things got better over the summer). And yes, we have a vast network of roads that cross all borders as well, ranging from large highways to small hiking paths.
We also have loads of people working in one country and living in another; we have people who's closest supermarket is around the corner but in another country. When the borders were closed, it was mainly a communication and people stuck to it without much enforcement. At a certain time, the police was doing random checks as it seemed that traffic was picking up and that was enough to discourage people again.
A personal example: I'm an avid scuba diver but there is no available salt water where I live. The best spots are in The Netherlands and we could go there very safely. We could get in the car, park at the waterfront, gear up, dive, change and get into our car again without actually meeting anyone. The probability that we would be checked by police is extremely small, but we don't do it because it is asked from the population to refrain crossing borders. None of our friends and acquaintances are crossing neither.
My point is that I think there is mainly a large cultural difference, not as much a logistical one. When our government tells people that there is a restriction some people will question it and be critical but the vast majority will comply and enforcement will hardly be needed.
Although I am scared that during Christmas and New Year's eve compliance will slide and the wish to host family events will prevail; and we will see a spike in deaths again after these holidays.14 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I'm a firm believer in using masks and social distancing, staying home more, etc. Due to more efforts such as what so many people are doing, shouldn't this make a difference in what we see as a normal flu year? Just curious.
But then, why is Covid being such a dangerous thing if people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
I've been wondering how this year's flu season will be too. I got a vaccine this year, my first in 30 years, and wonder if there are lots more like me, plus if the masking will help.
Re people doing what they are supposed to be doing, intellectually, my mother knows she is supposed to stay 6' away from people, but when we were walking today I had to remind her of this each of the three times we ran into people >.<
We haven't needed to use masks too much in most of Australia but I did hear flu numbers were way down this winter so I'd say more people got the flu vaccine. I did and made sure all my family did as well.
Cant speak for all states - but here in South Australia- yes flu cases were WAY down on normal - which I put down to these things_ enforced lockdowns, people staying home when sick, social distancing, better hygiene and more people vaccinated.
I would be amazed if flu cases were not down in all of Australia
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