Coronavirus prep

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  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 9,984 Member
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    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    SuzySunshine99 wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    Gisel2015 wrote: »
    No need for a vaccine or masks, the virus will go a way when " it reaches certain numbers and we get herd mentality." >:) All is good, isn't it?

    I said two or three weeks ago I think we'd hit Herd Immunity before we get a vaccine that works, unfortunately. But, here's the good news. Many of us might already have immunity and not know it. Because if this new information is true (and it makes logical sense), many of us mask wearers might already have immunity. We might have been exposed to enough small doses of the virus that the numbers of people that have been exposed now could be much higher than we thought.

    The problem is...for true herd immunity, you'd need around 70 percent of the population to be immune, and I don't believe we are anywhere near that infection rate. Given what we assume to be the death rate, if we hit a 70 percent infection rate, it would conservatively cost several million lives in the U.S. alone.

    Secondly, we have no idea how long immunity lasts after exposure to this virus. If you had symptoms, do you have better immunity than those that were asymptomatic? If you have antibodies to the virus, does that mean you are immune to future infection? No one knows. This is the problem with a novel virus. Exposure does not necessarily mean immunity.

    Yes, assuming Johns Hopkins was correct in the below article saying a 70% immunity rate would be necessary to achieve herd immunity, 70% of 330 million is 231 million infected people. Assuming a conservative 1% mortality rate, that's 2.31 million dead.

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/from-our-experts/early-herd-immunity-against-covid-19-a-dangerous-misconception

    It's not that simple. We know there are some people who have actually gotten re-infected because the immunity lasts only about 3-4 months. So it's actually that 70% of us need to get infected within the same 3 month time frame. This idea that we will reach herd immunity naturally by 2021 or 2022 or something completely ignores that the antibodies don't seem to last. You think hospitals were over-run and not prepared in late Mar. (NYC in particular)? Just wait until 70% of the population is infected simultaneously. Let's not do that.

    Don't misinterpret my comments. I've never said, "let's go for herd immunity". What I'm pointing out is that it's happening in front of our eyes because utter incompetence and mixed messaging. And the scientists have already said that, quite frankly, antibodies only matter for stop gap vaccine purposes. They are finding the T Cells have long term memories and now they believe if you've ever had a Coronavirus within the last decade or so, your T Cells will fight it and it shouldn't be that severe.

    I'm feeling cranky I guess, but after reading things like this that you have posted several times, I have to say: This is not news. You keep saying this like it's some new discovery, but the "memory" function of T-cells with respect to previously encountered viruses has been known for a long time. The news with respect to covid, as I understand it, is that they have found T-cell responses to covid in significant percentages (20% to 50%) of subjects who are not believed to have previous exposure to covid, and even in stored blood from several years before the first known cases of covid, so either covid has been circulating in the human population for a lot longer than we've known, or previous exposure to some other coronaviruses makes it possible for the T-cell system to recognize covid and respond.

    I agree completely. The only reason I kept bringing it up is all people were talking about is antibodies and saying things like, "the antibodies are short lived, so immunity won't last". I had to keep pointing out that antibodies are great, but the T-Cells is where the long lasting immunity comes from.

    And related to Herd Immunity, if what you're saying about some not even exposed to Covid-19 have T-Cells that are protecting them (and again I agree 100% with you and the science on it), then that's precisely why we might not have to get to 70% of the population having Covid-19 to get to herd immunity.

    So I think we're in total agreement except you're assuming that these are well known facts. Obviously, they aren't or we wouldn't still be hearing about antibodies as the only defense and 70% of the population needs to get Covid-19 to get to Herd immunity. Neither of which I believe is true and it sounds like you support that?

    You likely know science more than the rest of us, which is great. It's helpful to the rest of us.

    No, what bothered me is that you phrased it as though it's a new discovery that could change the outlook for the pandemic's path ("they're finding the T-cells have long memories"), when they've known this for a long time. I think people who don't know that could be misled into thinking "Yay, our bodies have this heretofore undiscovered super power and we're saved. Off with the masks! Let's stop for a cold one at the bar on our way to visit Grandma!"
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 9,984 Member
    Options
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    SuzySunshine99 wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    Gisel2015 wrote: »
    No need for a vaccine or masks, the virus will go a way when " it reaches certain numbers and we get herd mentality." >:) All is good, isn't it?

    I said two or three weeks ago I think we'd hit Herd Immunity before we get a vaccine that works, unfortunately. But, here's the good news. Many of us might already have immunity and not know it. Because if this new information is true (and it makes logical sense), many of us mask wearers might already have immunity. We might have been exposed to enough small doses of the virus that the numbers of people that have been exposed now could be much higher than we thought.

    The problem is...for true herd immunity, you'd need around 70 percent of the population to be immune, and I don't believe we are anywhere near that infection rate. Given what we assume to be the death rate, if we hit a 70 percent infection rate, it would conservatively cost several million lives in the U.S. alone.

    Secondly, we have no idea how long immunity lasts after exposure to this virus. If you had symptoms, do you have better immunity than those that were asymptomatic? If you have antibodies to the virus, does that mean you are immune to future infection? No one knows. This is the problem with a novel virus. Exposure does not necessarily mean immunity.

    Yes, assuming Johns Hopkins was correct in the below article saying a 70% immunity rate would be necessary to achieve herd immunity, 70% of 330 million is 231 million infected people. Assuming a conservative 1% mortality rate, that's 2.31 million dead.

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/from-our-experts/early-herd-immunity-against-covid-19-a-dangerous-misconception

    It's not that simple. We know there are some people who have actually gotten re-infected because the immunity lasts only about 3-4 months. So it's actually that 70% of us need to get infected within the same 3 month time frame. This idea that we will reach herd immunity naturally by 2021 or 2022 or something completely ignores that the antibodies don't seem to last. You think hospitals were over-run and not prepared in late Mar. (NYC in particular)? Just wait until 70% of the population is infected simultaneously. Let's not do that.

    Don't misinterpret my comments. I've never said, "let's go for herd immunity". What I'm pointing out is that it's happening in front of our eyes because utter incompetence and mixed messaging. And the scientists have already said that, quite frankly, antibodies only matter for stop gap vaccine purposes. They are finding the T Cells have long term memories and now they believe if you've ever had a Coronavirus within the last decade or so, your T Cells will fight it and it shouldn't be that severe.

    I'm feeling cranky I guess, but after reading things like this that you have posted several times, I have to say: This is not news. You keep saying this like it's some new discovery, but the "memory" function of T-cells with respect to previously encountered viruses has been known for a long time. The news with respect to covid, as I understand it, is that they have found T-cell responses to covid in significant percentages (20% to 50%) of subjects who are not believed to have previous exposure to covid, and even in stored blood from several years before the first known cases of covid, so either covid has been circulating in the human population for a lot longer than we've known, or previous exposure to some other coronaviruses makes it possible for the T-cell system to recognize covid and respond.

    I agree completely. The only reason I kept bringing it up is all people were talking about is antibodies and saying things like, "the antibodies are short lived, so immunity won't last". I had to keep pointing out that antibodies are great, but the T-Cells is where the long lasting immunity comes from.

    And related to Herd Immunity, if what you're saying about some not even exposed to Covid-19 have T-Cells that are protecting them (and again I agree 100% with you and the science on it), then that's precisely why we might not have to get to 70% of the population having Covid-19 to get to herd immunity.

    So I think we're in total agreement except you're assuming that these are well known facts. Obviously, they aren't or we wouldn't still be hearing about antibodies as the only defense and 70% of the population needs to get Covid-19 to get to Herd immunity. Neither of which I believe is true and it sounds like you support that?

    You likely know science more than the rest of us, which is great. It's helpful to the rest of us.

    I doubt I know more science than the rest of "us" at least on average. More than some maybe, probably less than many.

    I definitely find the discovery of T-cells responsive to COVID in people not known to be exposed and even blood samples taken before COVID was known to be transmitting in human populations to be very hopeful data.

    I appreciate the spirit in which you took my post. Just trying to clarify something I found potentially misleading that is germane to the thread topic.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 9,984 Member
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    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    SuzySunshine99 wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    Gisel2015 wrote: »
    No need for a vaccine or masks, the virus will go a way when " it reaches certain numbers and we get herd mentality." >:) All is good, isn't it?

    I said two or three weeks ago I think we'd hit Herd Immunity before we get a vaccine that works, unfortunately. But, here's the good news. Many of us might already have immunity and not know it. Because if this new information is true (and it makes logical sense), many of us mask wearers might already have immunity. We might have been exposed to enough small doses of the virus that the numbers of people that have been exposed now could be much higher than we thought.

    The problem is...for true herd immunity, you'd need around 70 percent of the population to be immune, and I don't believe we are anywhere near that infection rate. Given what we assume to be the death rate, if we hit a 70 percent infection rate, it would conservatively cost several million lives in the U.S. alone.

    Secondly, we have no idea how long immunity lasts after exposure to this virus. If you had symptoms, do you have better immunity than those that were asymptomatic? If you have antibodies to the virus, does that mean you are immune to future infection? No one knows. This is the problem with a novel virus. Exposure does not necessarily mean immunity.

    Yes, assuming Johns Hopkins was correct in the below article saying a 70% immunity rate would be necessary to achieve herd immunity, 70% of 330 million is 231 million infected people. Assuming a conservative 1% mortality rate, that's 2.31 million dead.

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/from-our-experts/early-herd-immunity-against-covid-19-a-dangerous-misconception

    It's not that simple. We know there are some people who have actually gotten re-infected because the immunity lasts only about 3-4 months. So it's actually that 70% of us need to get infected within the same 3 month time frame. This idea that we will reach herd immunity naturally by 2021 or 2022 or something completely ignores that the antibodies don't seem to last. You think hospitals were over-run and not prepared in late Mar. (NYC in particular)? Just wait until 70% of the population is infected simultaneously. Let's not do that.

    Don't misinterpret my comments. I've never said, "let's go for herd immunity". What I'm pointing out is that it's happening in front of our eyes because utter incompetence and mixed messaging. And the scientists have already said that, quite frankly, antibodies only matter for stop gap vaccine purposes. They are finding the T Cells have long term memories and now they believe if you've ever had a Coronavirus within the last decade or so, your T Cells will fight it and it shouldn't be that severe.

    I'm feeling cranky I guess, but after reading things like this that you have posted several times, I have to say: This is not news. You keep saying this like it's some new discovery, but the "memory" function of T-cells with respect to previously encountered viruses has been known for a long time. The news with respect to covid, as I understand it, is that they have found T-cell responses to covid in significant percentages (20% to 50%) of subjects who are not believed to have previous exposure to covid, and even in stored blood from several years before the first known cases of covid, so either covid has been circulating in the human population for a lot longer than we've known, or previous exposure to some other coronaviruses makes it possible for the T-cell system to recognize covid and respond.

    I agree completely. The only reason I kept bringing it up is all people were talking about is antibodies and saying things like, "the antibodies are short lived, so immunity won't last". I had to keep pointing out that antibodies are great, but the T-Cells is where the long lasting immunity comes from.

    And related to Herd Immunity, if what you're saying about some not even exposed to Covid-19 have T-Cells that are protecting them (and again I agree 100% with you and the science on it), then that's precisely why we might not have to get to 70% of the population having Covid-19 to get to herd immunity.

    So I think we're in total agreement except you're assuming that these are well known facts. Obviously, they aren't or we wouldn't still be hearing about antibodies as the only defense and 70% of the population needs to get Covid-19 to get to Herd immunity. Neither of which I believe is true and it sounds like you support that?

    You likely know science more than the rest of us, which is great. It's helpful to the rest of us.

    None of that explains the re-infections, though. If T-Cells were good enough after anti-bodies are gone, we wouldn't see re-infections... and that is something that indicates herd immunity cannot be achieved over several years.

    I'm worried about the reinfections, too, but my sense is that there have been a very limited number of documented cases (of course, we're, relatively speaking, in early days yet, and I suspect most people who have been diagnosed with COVID once are on average more cautious than those who haven't about avoiding non-distanced contacts, etc.). I think we need more data on reinfections rates.
  • lokihen
    lokihen Posts: 382 Member
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    This is a second-hand account from a poster on another forum. He claims that two patients at his clinic tested positive twice over a three month time span. When he reported them to the CDC as reinfections, both were reclassified as re-emerging.
  • MikePfirrman
    MikePfirrman Posts: 3,307 Member
    edited September 2020
    Options
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    SuzySunshine99 wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    Gisel2015 wrote: »
    No need for a vaccine or masks, the virus will go a way when " it reaches certain numbers and we get herd mentality." >:) All is good, isn't it?

    I said two or three weeks ago I think we'd hit Herd Immunity before we get a vaccine that works, unfortunately. But, here's the good news. Many of us might already have immunity and not know it. Because if this new information is true (and it makes logical sense), many of us mask wearers might already have immunity. We might have been exposed to enough small doses of the virus that the numbers of people that have been exposed now could be much higher than we thought.

    The problem is...for true herd immunity, you'd need around 70 percent of the population to be immune, and I don't believe we are anywhere near that infection rate. Given what we assume to be the death rate, if we hit a 70 percent infection rate, it would conservatively cost several million lives in the U.S. alone.

    Secondly, we have no idea how long immunity lasts after exposure to this virus. If you had symptoms, do you have better immunity than those that were asymptomatic? If you have antibodies to the virus, does that mean you are immune to future infection? No one knows. This is the problem with a novel virus. Exposure does not necessarily mean immunity.

    Yes, assuming Johns Hopkins was correct in the below article saying a 70% immunity rate would be necessary to achieve herd immunity, 70% of 330 million is 231 million infected people. Assuming a conservative 1% mortality rate, that's 2.31 million dead.

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/from-our-experts/early-herd-immunity-against-covid-19-a-dangerous-misconception

    It's not that simple. We know there are some people who have actually gotten re-infected because the immunity lasts only about 3-4 months. So it's actually that 70% of us need to get infected within the same 3 month time frame. This idea that we will reach herd immunity naturally by 2021 or 2022 or something completely ignores that the antibodies don't seem to last. You think hospitals were over-run and not prepared in late Mar. (NYC in particular)? Just wait until 70% of the population is infected simultaneously. Let's not do that.

    Don't misinterpret my comments. I've never said, "let's go for herd immunity". What I'm pointing out is that it's happening in front of our eyes because utter incompetence and mixed messaging. And the scientists have already said that, quite frankly, antibodies only matter for stop gap vaccine purposes. They are finding the T Cells have long term memories and now they believe if you've ever had a Coronavirus within the last decade or so, your T Cells will fight it and it shouldn't be that severe.

    I'm feeling cranky I guess, but after reading things like this that you have posted several times, I have to say: This is not news. You keep saying this like it's some new discovery, but the "memory" function of T-cells with respect to previously encountered viruses has been known for a long time. The news with respect to covid, as I understand it, is that they have found T-cell responses to covid in significant percentages (20% to 50%) of subjects who are not believed to have previous exposure to covid, and even in stored blood from several years before the first known cases of covid, so either covid has been circulating in the human population for a lot longer than we've known, or previous exposure to some other coronaviruses makes it possible for the T-cell system to recognize covid and respond.

    I agree completely. The only reason I kept bringing it up is all people were talking about is antibodies and saying things like, "the antibodies are short lived, so immunity won't last". I had to keep pointing out that antibodies are great, but the T-Cells is where the long lasting immunity comes from.

    And related to Herd Immunity, if what you're saying about some not even exposed to Covid-19 have T-Cells that are protecting them (and again I agree 100% with you and the science on it), then that's precisely why we might not have to get to 70% of the population having Covid-19 to get to herd immunity.

    So I think we're in total agreement except you're assuming that these are well known facts. Obviously, they aren't or we wouldn't still be hearing about antibodies as the only defense and 70% of the population needs to get Covid-19 to get to Herd immunity. Neither of which I believe is true and it sounds like you support that?

    You likely know science more than the rest of us, which is great. It's helpful to the rest of us.

    No, what bothered me is that you phrased it as though it's a new discovery that could change the outlook for the pandemic's path ("they're finding the T-cells have long memories"), when they've known this for a long time. I think people who don't know that could be misled into thinking "Yay, our bodies have this heretofore undiscovered super power and we're saved. Off with the masks! Let's stop for a cold one at the bar on our way to visit Grandma!"

    Sorry, Lynn, don't mean to imply take off your masks. Not at all. One of my friends is an epidemiologist (but for cancer, not for contagious diseases). Yes, the T Cell memory isn't anything new at all. You're right. But, when they found out that T Cells worked against Covid-19, like if you've had any Coronavirus in the past, was new news about a month ago. Also, scientists were somewhat pleasantly surprised that T Cells were so efficient against it. When they figured this out (not discovered it, bad phrasing on my part), he seemed downright giddy and his best friends are at high-levels fighting this thing. Perhaps I'm relying too much on what he's telling me.

    Edit -- I looked it up. It was in May this information came out, so it is older.

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity

    From the article:

    "Before these studies, researchers didn’t know whether T cells played a role in eliminating SARS-CoV-2, or even whether they could provoke a dangerous immune system overreaction. “These papers are really helpful because they start to define the T cell component of the immune response,” Rasmussen says. But she and other scientists caution that the results do not mean that people who have recovered from COVID-19 are protected from reinfection.

    To spark production of antibodies, vaccines against the virus need to stimulate helper T cells, Crotty notes. “It is encouraging that we are seeing good helper T cell responses against SARS-CoV-2 in COVID-19 cases,” he says. The results have other significant implications for vaccine design, says molecular virologist Rachel Graham of the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill."

    I gathered there was some question whether our natural immune system could even fight something so foreign to humans.

    Promise, it's the last time I'll bring it up!

    Not anything controversial at all related to politics, but I don't envy either candidate who wins this next election. We have a very large part of the population that is done with this virus. And it's not done. Not by a long way. My hope is we just have more consistency of message and learn how to better cope with it.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,160 Member
    edited September 2020
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    https://apnews.com/a01ddfa2e8ef839b2ee05e2cbcd63169

    Sweden spared surge of virus cases but many questions remain

    I have been wondering about Sweden of the past 6 months so I find this article interesting.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 9,984 Member
    Options
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    SuzySunshine99 wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    Gisel2015 wrote: »
    No need for a vaccine or masks, the virus will go a way when " it reaches certain numbers and we get herd mentality." >:) All is good, isn't it?

    I said two or three weeks ago I think we'd hit Herd Immunity before we get a vaccine that works, unfortunately. But, here's the good news. Many of us might already have immunity and not know it. Because if this new information is true (and it makes logical sense), many of us mask wearers might already have immunity. We might have been exposed to enough small doses of the virus that the numbers of people that have been exposed now could be much higher than we thought.

    The problem is...for true herd immunity, you'd need around 70 percent of the population to be immune, and I don't believe we are anywhere near that infection rate. Given what we assume to be the death rate, if we hit a 70 percent infection rate, it would conservatively cost several million lives in the U.S. alone.

    Secondly, we have no idea how long immunity lasts after exposure to this virus. If you had symptoms, do you have better immunity than those that were asymptomatic? If you have antibodies to the virus, does that mean you are immune to future infection? No one knows. This is the problem with a novel virus. Exposure does not necessarily mean immunity.

    Yes, assuming Johns Hopkins was correct in the below article saying a 70% immunity rate would be necessary to achieve herd immunity, 70% of 330 million is 231 million infected people. Assuming a conservative 1% mortality rate, that's 2.31 million dead.

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/from-our-experts/early-herd-immunity-against-covid-19-a-dangerous-misconception

    It's not that simple. We know there are some people who have actually gotten re-infected because the immunity lasts only about 3-4 months. So it's actually that 70% of us need to get infected within the same 3 month time frame. This idea that we will reach herd immunity naturally by 2021 or 2022 or something completely ignores that the antibodies don't seem to last. You think hospitals were over-run and not prepared in late Mar. (NYC in particular)? Just wait until 70% of the population is infected simultaneously. Let's not do that.

    Don't misinterpret my comments. I've never said, "let's go for herd immunity". What I'm pointing out is that it's happening in front of our eyes because utter incompetence and mixed messaging. And the scientists have already said that, quite frankly, antibodies only matter for stop gap vaccine purposes. They are finding the T Cells have long term memories and now they believe if you've ever had a Coronavirus within the last decade or so, your T Cells will fight it and it shouldn't be that severe.

    I'm feeling cranky I guess, but after reading things like this that you have posted several times, I have to say: This is not news. You keep saying this like it's some new discovery, but the "memory" function of T-cells with respect to previously encountered viruses has been known for a long time. The news with respect to covid, as I understand it, is that they have found T-cell responses to covid in significant percentages (20% to 50%) of subjects who are not believed to have previous exposure to covid, and even in stored blood from several years before the first known cases of covid, so either covid has been circulating in the human population for a lot longer than we've known, or previous exposure to some other coronaviruses makes it possible for the T-cell system to recognize covid and respond.

    I agree completely. The only reason I kept bringing it up is all people were talking about is antibodies and saying things like, "the antibodies are short lived, so immunity won't last". I had to keep pointing out that antibodies are great, but the T-Cells is where the long lasting immunity comes from.

    And related to Herd Immunity, if what you're saying about some not even exposed to Covid-19 have T-Cells that are protecting them (and again I agree 100% with you and the science on it), then that's precisely why we might not have to get to 70% of the population having Covid-19 to get to herd immunity.

    So I think we're in total agreement except you're assuming that these are well known facts. Obviously, they aren't or we wouldn't still be hearing about antibodies as the only defense and 70% of the population needs to get Covid-19 to get to Herd immunity. Neither of which I believe is true and it sounds like you support that?

    You likely know science more than the rest of us, which is great. It's helpful to the rest of us.

    No, what bothered me is that you phrased it as though it's a new discovery that could change the outlook for the pandemic's path ("they're finding the T-cells have long memories"), when they've known this for a long time. I think people who don't know that could be misled into thinking "Yay, our bodies have this heretofore undiscovered super power and we're saved. Off with the masks! Let's stop for a cold one at the bar on our way to visit Grandma!"

    Sorry, Lynn, don't mean to imply take off your masks. Not at all. One of my friends is an epidemiologist (but for cancer, not for contagious diseases). Yes, the T Cell memory isn't anything new at all. You're right. But, when they found out that T Cells worked against Covid-19, like if you've had any Coronavirus in the past, was new news about a month ago. Also, scientists were somewhat pleasantly surprised that T Cells were so efficient against it. When they figured this out (not discovered it, bad phrasing on my part), he seemed downright giddy and his best friends are at high-levels fighting this thing. Perhaps I'm relying too much on what he's telling me.

    Edit -- I looked it up. It was in May this information came out, so it is older.

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity

    From the article:

    "Before these studies, researchers didn’t know whether T cells played a role in eliminating SARS-CoV-2, or even whether they could provoke a dangerous immune system overreaction. “These papers are really helpful because they start to define the T cell component of the immune response,” Rasmussen says. But she and other scientists caution that the results do not mean that people who have recovered from COVID-19 are protected from reinfection.

    To spark production of antibodies, vaccines against the virus need to stimulate helper T cells, Crotty notes. “It is encouraging that we are seeing good helper T cell responses against SARS-CoV-2 in COVID-19 cases,” he says. The results have other significant implications for vaccine design, says molecular virologist Rachel Graham of the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill."

    I gathered there was some question whether our natural immune system could even fight something so foreign to humans.

    Promise, it's the last time I'll bring it up!

    Not anything controversial at all related to politics, but I don't envy either candidate who wins this next election. We have a very large part of the population that is done with this virus. And it's not done. Not by a long way. My hope is we just have more consistency of message and learn how to better cope with it.

    Yeah. I'm sure there were folks who were 'done with' WWII by late 1942, but it's hard not to feel as a nation we've lost a lot of the capacity to sacrifice for the greater good, pull together, etc., etc.

    I think the article you quoted from here offers some interesting perspective, although I'd note the researchers seem more interested in the implications for vaccine development than for the possibility of natural herd immunity.
  • spiriteagle99
    spiriteagle99 Posts: 3,677 Member
    Options
    I have read a few articles about people who died in car accidents or gun shots who were listed as Covid deaths. No names that I remember.

    Our local coroner went public early on saying that the state (PA) was classifying as Covid deaths people who did not die of Covid, according to their autopsy. The state dropped the number of deaths in our county by 10 or so after he raised the issue. That created a lot of distrust of the government numbers.
  • MikePfirrman
    MikePfirrman Posts: 3,307 Member
    Options
    spiriteagle99 wrote: »
    I have read a few articles about people who died in car accidents or gun shots who were listed as Covid deaths. No names that I remember.

    Our local coroner went public early on saying that the state (PA) was classifying as Covid deaths people who did not die of Covid, according to their autopsy. The state dropped the number of deaths in our county by 10 or so after he raised the issue. That created a lot of distrust of the government numbers.

    Is it this article, because this coroner wasn't saying that deaths were being mislabeled as Covid-19, what he was saying was they were misidentifying what county they were from. Sounds like people on Facebook didn't understand what he was saying.

    https://www.lockhaven.com/news/local-news/2020/05/dispute-between-state-and-coroners-over-covid-19-deaths-might-have-a-resolution/
  • autumnblade75
    autumnblade75 Posts: 1,660 Member
    edited September 2020
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    I only remember that we were TOLD, here in IL, anyway, that YES, someone who died with Covid from something completely unrelated, they would be counted as a Covid death.

    I recall watching this on Facebook, the governor was holding live updates every day back at the start of the statewide stay at home order. The comments suggest this part was later edited from the stream.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw9Ci2PZKZg

    I believe they walked it back, later - but this was absolutely the message that our local government put out. Not trying to be political. Just reporting on what was said.
  • MikePfirrman
    MikePfirrman Posts: 3,307 Member
    edited September 2020
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    Here's another article on that same topic.

    https://wgntv.com/news/wgn-investigates/how-accurate-is-illinois-count-of-deaths-caused-by-coronavirus-we-asked-the-experts/

    This article points out that if someone dies from Covid-19 and there's been a positive diagnosis, it might possibly be counted as a Covid-19 death (which to some seems concerning). But what the article also points out is that many more aren't ever tested and pass away from Covid-19, so likely the numbers are much higher.
  • Diatonic12
    Diatonic12 Posts: 32,344 Member
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    My regards and condolences to your family, NoreenMarie.

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