How much protein do you really need?

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  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,668 Member
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    The correct diet for building muscle is the same regadless of size or sex, it's just scaled to your size. Not that I'm upset with you or upset at all but it does get old when people say "why do people care what body builders do".

    Well, many body builders know a lot about nutrition for one thing. They have to have perfect nutrition to achieve what they achieve. It may not be practical to takeit to the extremes that they do, but the basic prinicples are the same.

    #1- Get enough protein. 1-1.5g per pound of lean mass is the best number science has been able to identify for optimal muscle building potential.

    #2- Fats and carbs are important. Most bodybuilders do take in large amounts of carbs, except during contest prep.

    #3- Lift heavy

    #4- set calorie intake to mean your goals, deficit to lose weight, surplus to gain weight.

    These basic principles will work for anyone looking to build muscle. If you don't care how much muscle you have or lose then eat however little protein you like.
    Not to mention that bodybuilders KNOW how to retain the most lean mass possible while dieting down to 4% bodyfat for a contest. I've competed and haven't ever gotten down to 4%! Closest I've gotten is 7% and I was pretty tight! It took 12 weeks of hard dieting and bland food. And this was in the mid eighties where the options for nutritional supplements were limited to a few companies and the protein powders tasted like chalk. Practically everything had to be mixed in a blender and we didn't have "magic bullet" or hand mixers to do it with. So it wasn't uncommon to have a cooler to keep your mixed drinks on ice to drink right after a workout.
    Though today's bodybuilders are too freaky to take seriously, they still have the knowledge of what it takes to put on mass and keep it.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    Thanks for your response, mcrow. I have one more question, if you wouldn't mind.:smile:
    You give a protein goal of 1-1.5g per pound of lean mass, but I often see 1 per kilogram. Is it per pound or per kilogram?


    * skip the question, I just realized the answer!

    For a NON-bodybuilder, the actual formula for calculating the daily protein requirement is 0.8 grams per kilogram of bodyweight. For someone building muscle, it varies, it goes from 1 gram per pound of lean body mass, to to 1 gram per pound of total bodyweight. Of course, for most bodybuilders, lean body mass and total body weight are so close that the numbers are pretty much interchangeable. So it depends on your goal.
  • songbyrdsweet
    songbyrdsweet Posts: 5,691 Member
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    In case anyone's still wondering, here's a website full of vegan bodybuilders: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/
    Lol, comparing these competitors to top amateurs and pros would be like comparing my amateur skills in poker to a pro poker player. I'm not relevant when it comes to REAL competitions.

    profile_washington_10b.jpg

    profile_reiners_4.jpg

    Looks legit to me.
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    Thanks for your response, mcrow. I have one more question, if you wouldn't mind.:smile:
    You give a protein goal of 1-1.5g per pound of lean mass, but I often see 1 per kilogram. Is it per pound or per kilogram?


    * skip the question, I just realized the answer!

    1 per pound or ~2.7g per kg.
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    In case anyone's still wondering, here's a website full of vegan bodybuilders: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/
    Lol, comparing these competitors to top amateurs and pros would be like comparing my amateur skills in poker to a pro poker player. I'm not relevant when it comes to REAL competitions.

    profile_washington_10b.jpg

    profile_reiners_4.jpg

    Looks legit to me.

    Nobody said that you can't build muscle on a vegan diet. There are proteins that are vegan friendly. However, if you look at these guys compared to their non-vegan counterparts they are pretty small. They are very lean, but not very big.
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    The correct diet for building muscle is the same regadless of size or sex, it's just scaled to your size. Not that I'm upset with you or upset at all but it does get old when people say "why do people care what body builders do".

    Well, many body builders know a lot about nutrition for one thing. They have to have perfect nutrition to achieve what they achieve. It may not be practical to takeit to the extremes that they do, but the basic prinicples are the same.

    #1- Get enough protein. 1-1.5g per pound of lean mass is the best number science has been able to identify for optimal muscle building potential.

    #2- Fats and carbs are important. Most bodybuilders do take in large amounts of carbs, except during contest prep.

    #3- Lift heavy

    #4- set calorie intake to mean your goals, deficit to lose weight, surplus to gain weight.

    These basic principles will work for anyone looking to build muscle. If you don't care how much muscle you have or lose then eat however little protein you like.
    Not to mention that bodybuilders KNOW how to retain the most lean mass possible while dieting down to 4% bodyfat for a contest. I've competed and haven't ever gotten down to 4%! Closest I've gotten is 7% and I was pretty tight! It took 12 weeks of hard dieting and bland food. And this was in the mid eighties where the options for nutritional supplements were limited to a few companies and the protein powders tasted like chalk. Practically everything had to be mixed in a blender and we didn't have "magic bullet" or hand mixers to do it with. So it wasn't uncommon to have a cooler to keep your mixed drinks on ice to drink right after a workout.
    Though today's bodybuilders are too freaky to take seriously, they still have the knowledge of what it takes to put on mass and keep it.

    There are still some very good natural bodybuilders that show you what good training, nutrition and genetics can do.

    For me, the lowest I ever got was round 9-10% BF my senior season of wrestling. I don't have aspirations to be a bodybuilder but I would like to be in great shape with some decent muscle mass. So, for my goals the bodybuilder diet is the best way to go.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,668 Member
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    Looks legit to me.
    But in competition with other amateur and pro bodybuilders, these guys are "skinny". Now mind you I'd rather have their physiques for everyday life, but to put these guys in the same category Cutler, Heath and Greene......................nah.
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    Looks legit to me.
    But in competition with other amateur and pro bodybuilders, these guys are "skinny". Now mind you I'd rather have their physiques for everyday life, but to put these guys in the same category Cutler, Heath and Greene......................nah.
    They don't even compare to most of the all Natural guys either. I've seen pictures from natural Pro Qualifiers and a lot of those guys look like they have 20+ pounds on these guys.
  • songbyrdsweet
    songbyrdsweet Posts: 5,691 Member
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    Looks legit to me.
    But in competition with other amateur and pro bodybuilders, these guys are "skinny". Now mind you I'd rather have their physiques for everyday life, but to put these guys in the same category Cutler, Heath and Greene......................nah.

    You do know that Cutler and the rest of the pros use, right? You're not comparing vegan to non-vegan...you're comparing vegan to steroids. The pro WOMEN are bigger than amateur guys.
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    Looks legit to me.
    But in competition with other amateur and pro bodybuilders, these guys are "skinny". Now mind you I'd rather have their physiques for everyday life, but to put these guys in the same category Cutler, Heath and Greene......................nah.

    You do know that Cutler and the rest of the pros use, right? You're not comparing vegan to non-vegan...you're comparing vegan to steroids. The pro WOMEN are bigger than amateur guys.

    Yeah, you can't compare the vegans BBers to the Open Pros who are roided up. However, as I said, the natural pros and many ams are significantly larger than the vegans I've seen. Not to diminish their achievement, it's outstanding what they can achieve while on such a restrictive selection of food sources. I would kill to look like the vegan BBers, they are impressive, just not compared to non-vegans.
  • Teemo
    Teemo Posts: 338
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    Looks legit to me.
    But in competition with other amateur and pro bodybuilders, these guys are "skinny". Now mind you I'd rather have their physiques for everyday life, but to put these guys in the same category Cutler, Heath and Greene......................nah.

    You do know that Cutler and the rest of the pros use, right? You're not comparing vegan to non-vegan...you're comparing vegan to steroids. The pro WOMEN are bigger than amateur guys.

    Yeah, you can't compare the vegans BBers to the Open Pros who are roided up. However, as I said, the natural pros and many ams are significantly larger than the vegans I've seen. Not to diminish their achievement, it's outstanding what they can achieve while on such a restrictive selection of food sources. I would kill to look like the vegan BBers, they are impressive, just not compared to non-vegans.

    Compare them to natural non-vegan BBers then. [And that's with the assumption that no "vegan" BBer cycles AND the assumption that a vegan BBer is on minimal protein macros.]
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,668 Member
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    You do know that Cutler and the rest of the pros use, right? You're not comparing vegan to non-vegan...you're comparing vegan to steroids. The pro WOMEN are bigger than amateur guys.
    Andreas Cahling was a well known competitive PRO bodybuilder who was juiced and vegan. If you compared his physique to one's you've posted you'd see a significant difference.


    http://s797.photobucket.com/albums/yy259/MeatSmells/?action=view&current=Andreas-Cahling-VegTimes-VEGETARIAN.jpg&currenttag=Protein
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    Looks legit to me.
    But in competition with other amateur and pro bodybuilders, these guys are "skinny". Now mind you I'd rather have their physiques for everyday life, but to put these guys in the same category Cutler, Heath and Greene......................nah.

    You do know that Cutler and the rest of the pros use, right? You're not comparing vegan to non-vegan...you're comparing vegan to steroids. The pro WOMEN are bigger than amateur guys.

    Yeah, you can't compare the vegans BBers to the Open Pros who are roided up. However, as I said, the natural pros and many ams are significantly larger than the vegans I've seen. Not to diminish their achievement, it's outstanding what they can achieve while on such a restrictive selection of food sources. I would kill to look like the vegan BBers, they are impressive, just not compared to non-vegans.

    Compare them to natural non-vegan BBers then. [And that's with the assumption that no "vegan" BBer cycles AND the assumption that a vegan BBer is on minimal protein macros.]

    Ummm..... that's what I was doing. Assuming natural vegan vs non-vegan natural. Most non-vegan naturals I see are larger than the vegans. Then again, it's hard to tell who really is natural.
  • songbyrdsweet
    songbyrdsweet Posts: 5,691 Member
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    You do know that Cutler and the rest of the pros use, right? You're not comparing vegan to non-vegan...you're comparing vegan to steroids. The pro WOMEN are bigger than amateur guys.
    Andreas Cahling was a well known competitive PRO bodybuilder who was juiced and vegan. If you compared his physique to one's you've posted you'd see a significant difference.


    http://s797.photobucket.com/albums/yy259/MeatSmells/?action=view&current=Andreas-Cahling-VegTimes-VEGETARIAN.jpg&currenttag=Protein

    I'm not sure what we're disagreeing on now. If someone is on steroids you can't compare them to natural BBers, regardless of diet.
  • songbyrdsweet
    songbyrdsweet Posts: 5,691 Member
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    Looks legit to me.
    But in competition with other amateur and pro bodybuilders, these guys are "skinny". Now mind you I'd rather have their physiques for everyday life, but to put these guys in the same category Cutler, Heath and Greene......................nah.

    You do know that Cutler and the rest of the pros use, right? You're not comparing vegan to non-vegan...you're comparing vegan to steroids. The pro WOMEN are bigger than amateur guys.

    Yeah, you can't compare the vegans BBers to the Open Pros who are roided up. However, as I said, the natural pros and many ams are significantly larger than the vegans I've seen. Not to diminish their achievement, it's outstanding what they can achieve while on such a restrictive selection of food sources. I would kill to look like the vegan BBers, they are impressive, just not compared to non-vegans.

    Compare them to natural non-vegan BBers then. [And that's with the assumption that no "vegan" BBer cycles AND the assumption that a vegan BBer is on minimal protein macros.]

    Ummm..... that's what I was doing. Assuming natural vegan vs non-vegan natural. Most non-vegan naturals I see are larger than the vegans. Then again, it's hard to tell who really is natural.

    Bleh, picture links aren't working...here's the page though.

    http://www.naturalbodybuilding.com/pages/events/2011/2011_americas_natural.php
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
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    Not all pro's are on the juice. There are quite a few IFBB pro's that are natural, and quite a few guys that SHOULD compete but don't and they look like they are on the juice, but aren't....like PBateman (Manu) from bodybuilding.com. The man is a beast and completely natty.
  • vass78
    vass78 Posts: 29 Member
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    I noticed that my daily protien is always high - and some days I won't eat any meat. What does taking in too much protein mean? Does that convert to fat if unused? Is it like a calorie in terms of what to keep low when tryin to lose weight?
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,668 Member
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    Bleh, picture links aren't working...here's the page though.

    http://www.naturalbodybuilding.com/pages/events/2011/2011_americas_natural.php
    Well unless you place them side by side, it's hard to compare. It's kinda like looking at paint. May look good in a store, but once on the wall it may look totally different.
    Can't really think of any vegan bodybuilder (juiced or not) who has been able to compete with their meat eating counter parts except for Cahling.
  • VickiMitkins
    VickiMitkins Posts: 249 Member
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    I noticed that my daily protien is always high - and some days I won't eat any meat. What does taking in too much protein mean? Does that convert to fat if unused? Is it like a calorie in terms of what to keep low when tryin to lose weight?

    Any kind of exess calories can be turned into fat. The only exception I am aware of is alcohol. Alcohol is actually a toxin in the body and you will metabolize it first to get it out of the body. Its good because it leaves the body, but bad because the body greatly slows in metabolising other calorie sources. My understanding is simple carbs are converted to fat for storage more easily than protien. I could be misunderstanding that, but it's what I've read.. I guess that's why people now say carbs are bad. In short protien is good and it's rather difficult to get too much protien. What you have to watch for are too many calories.
  • 43Ninebark
    43Ninebark Posts: 41 Member
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    Just realized I was sitting here reading the... friendly debates, while eating carrots- like its popcorn & drama time. Rofl What I'm trying to find out is which non-meat foods to combine to form a complete protein chain. I saw an excellent diagram years ago but wasn't able to find it later on. This is the wrong thread.
    I eat meat, but when I eat dairy or beans etc, I try to make the most out of it by adding something else to complete the chain. I have like 70g of protein per day because.... of lots of reasons that I just won't get into cuz it's long.

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