Something I learned to avoid carbs
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I took a nap, why is everyone on kelly's case? What "claims" is she making that you see as aren't true?
I went back 6 pages trying to catch up, but, yeah, that's not going to work in a reasonable time frame.
She thinks you can lose weight while in a calorie surplus, which is just plain false.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
WRONG. Because you believe all calories are equal. I was you too. I thought so too. I am living proof this is an invalid theory. There is a way around it. Happy I have found it.
So your saying that ingested energy can just disappear? That would imply that you're a black hole.
So yes you are at a deficit, whether you acknowledge it or not.
She starved herself. For a long time period. I saw her for months talking about eating 1000 calories. And now she's saying 800.
She probably had a raging case of adaptive thermogenesis. She's even saying she thought her maintenance was 1300-1400. Not unless she's already super thin. Which would put her, if trying to lose more weight into some dangerous territory. To get 1300 for maintenance on Scooby's, I just plugged in 110 for weight. And she's lost 6 pounds from that. I forgot her exact age, I used 35.
Houston, we have a problem.
Yes you do have a problem. You can't read. I DID NOT EAT 800 calories. I am 5ft1, was 9stone3, age 36, my BMR was something like 1300. My TDEE maybe 1500 maybe a bit more. NOT ENOUGH for me. I can not sustain this. I did eat 1000 calories for a while because this was the most I could eat and still lose a tiny - ounces - of weight. Bearing in mind I could go down to around 7stone12 and still be in my healthy weight range. I would have had to go to 800 to lose weight without it taking 6 years or something stupid.
You said, in reply to a post of mine suggesting you do a refeed at maintenance, that YOU DID THAT. If you ate 1300 and thought it was a refeed, it wasn't.
You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. You had adaptive thermogenesis. That's why your rate of loss slowed down. Your TDEE at those stats was around 1600 calories. You should have eaten up to that for a while... about 2 weeks if not more, then slowly backed down to eating about your BMR level. You would have resumed a normal rate of loss at that point.
What you've done now is nothing more than a refeed, just as I've outlined here.
Without presenting proof that you're eating in an actual energy surplus (especially since you only counted calories all of once), I frankly don't believe you, unless you have an undiagnosed underlying medical condition (in which case there really isn't an underlying energy surplus).
Not sure how I can prove it? I could put anything into MFP couldn't I? It wouldn't be proof. So today as an example I burned around 1,600 calories which is prob average (I have a FITBIT)
I ate
Breakfast
4 pieces of streaky bacon
3 eggs cooked in butter
A tomato
Lunch
A pack of antipasto meats
Chicken and veg soup
Dinner (Sunday lunch round the mother in law's!)
Boiled egg salad and loads of olive oil
Roast pork, chicken and cauliflower mash, peas and carrots, brocolli and peas
Strawberries and double cream
Cheddar and Brie
A bit of 85% dark chocolate
Decaf teas and coffees about 4
Yesterday - same breakfast (have the same most days - some days porridge and banana)
Lunch - pork chop and cauliflower rice and courgette noodles cooked in butter
Dinner - duck breast and all the skin and same veg
Full fat Greek yoghurt
I'm being as honest as I can here. No lies. You ca chose to believe me or not. It's fine!
If your Fitbit says you burned 1600 calories, you must have done some intense exercise for a really long time.
I climbed a mountain.
In what quantities did you eat that food?
I have no idea as I don't weight now (yippeeee !) but all big plates. You can visualise 3 medium eggs scrambled and 4 rashers of bacon... A bowl of porridge about 100g, a roast dinner not piled up but plate full... Half a Cauli mashed, half a large courgette spiraled... Can't be more specific sorry as I don't need to weigh anymore !
Peer reviewed studies, please.
Oh sorry. You mean other people who have reviewed this particular diet. I haven't looked for these (sorry I misunderstood reviewed studies for the actual book ... Thicko) I'll have to see if there are any! At this point I can only give my experience (but there are loads of people on her forum (much like this one ) who have also seen incredible results)
Do you climb mountains and all that often?
That burns a lot of calories you know. Probably enough to lose weight at 2000 calories.
Nope! Last time was in January. We had to come back down because it was too icy. Went back today to get to the top. And we did. Hurrah!
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kellysdavies wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »Since it got pushed into page 12, I'll ask again in case you missed it for the 5th time....kellysdavies wrote: »What question do you want answered? I am not the scientist behind the diet - just someone who has tried it after a long time doing CICO and it is so far successful for me.
Really you're going to pretend you didn't see the questions? You even responded to the post by starting out saying "Yez, yes I can". Here I will post the sake questions for a 4th time.
So what you're saying is that by eating fat and carbs together we will not be able to lose fat because our bodies are always burning carbs? So at no point in the day will our body tap into stored fat reserves for energy since we are in a caloric deficit? Does eating fat and carbs negate the laws of thermodynamics?
No. I am not saying this. You will until a certain point. I am saying the body will always use energy from carbs first.
Can you explain to me why then was I able to lose the weight I wanted to (75 lbs) all without following that rule to not eat fat and carbs together?
Yes. For the same reason I was able to lose 1stone7lb on CICO then it stopped despite having probably another stone to go. Because I was starving it. Then my body got used to it and was like 'hang on. We need to start storing some of this'. It readjusted. All CICO work at first. I am not explaining this very well. It's like that American starvation experiment where after a certain point the men weren't losing at the same rate and some even maintaining.. Despite still eating same number of calories a day. According to the CICO theory they should have disappeared!
Are you also saying you can lose weight while being in a caloric surplus?
Yes. Not sure I can be any clearer on this answer?kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
Shhh don't talk sense, it's all magic and unicorns, you know that SLL.
Nah. Just understanding food and calories as a unit of measurement properly. While an inch is an inch, a calorie isn't always a calorie once it is in the body. No magic, no unicorns. Basics.
100 calories of apple is the same as 100 calories of cake, except the cake will be a whole lot smaller than than the apple. Your body knows no difference, but your mind might.
The body uses 100 calories worth of carb very differently to 100 calories worth of fat. Not all calories are equal.
Why is that the same kind of cookie cutter answer all of you that pop in with these arguments use? Answer the questions and stop with the posts rambling.
Okay. I disagree. A 100 calories of apple is not the same as 100 calories of cake. The body will use the nutrients - or the bits that make them an apple or make them a cake - in different ways.
Well I used CICO the entire way, you failed at it that's your flaw not the flaw of CICO.
You really have no clue how science works. No one on this board should listen to what you're saying because not only are you wrong when you give your stance but you don't even know how you got to the position because you are saying you can't even explain it. It's probably 100% likely that you can't explain it because you are blindly listening to that Zoe woman without questioning anything.
You don't know science.
So on your theory I shouldn't blindly follow something and I should question it. Urm. So this is what happened with CICO...
Well at least if you ask me how CICO works, how the body works, how macronutrients get metabolized I can explain that I have answers. You can't. You are claiming things that differ from actual science but you yourself said you can't even explain yourself.stevencloser wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »Since it got pushed into page 12, I'll ask again in case you missed it for the 5th time....kellysdavies wrote: »What question do you want answered? I am not the scientist behind the diet - just someone who has tried it after a long time doing CICO and it is so far successful for me.
Really you're going to pretend you didn't see the questions? You even responded to the post by starting out saying "Yez, yes I can". Here I will post the sake questions for a 4th time.
So what you're saying is that by eating fat and carbs together we will not be able to lose fat because our bodies are always burning carbs? So at no point in the day will our body tap into stored fat reserves for energy since we are in a caloric deficit? Does eating fat and carbs negate the laws of thermodynamics?
No. I am not saying this. You will until a certain point. I am saying the body will always use energy from carbs first.
Can you explain to me why then was I able to lose the weight I wanted to (75 lbs) all without following that rule to not eat fat and carbs together?
Yes. For the same reason I was able to lose 1stone7lb on CICO then it stopped despite having probably another stone to go. Because I was starving it. Then my body got used to it and was like 'hang on. We need to start storing some of this'. It readjusted. All CICO work at first. I am not explaining this very well. It's like that American starvation experiment where after a certain point the men weren't losing at the same rate and some even maintaining.. Despite still eating same number of calories a day. According to the CICO theory they should have disappeared!
Are you also saying you can lose weight while being in a caloric surplus?
Yes. Not sure I can be any clearer on this answer?kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
Shhh don't talk sense, it's all magic and unicorns, you know that SLL.
Nah. Just understanding food and calories as a unit of measurement properly. While an inch is an inch, a calorie isn't always a calorie once it is in the body. No magic, no unicorns. Basics.
100 calories of apple is the same as 100 calories of cake, except the cake will be a whole lot smaller than than the apple. Your body knows no difference, but your mind might.
The body uses 100 calories worth of carb very differently to 100 calories worth of fat. Not all calories are equal.
Why is that the same kind of cookie cutter answer all of you that pop in with these arguments use? Answer the questions and stop with the posts rambling.
Okay. I disagree. A 100 calories of apple is not the same as 100 calories of cake. The body will use the nutrients - or the bits that make them an apple or make them a cake - in different ways.
Well I used CICO the entire way, you failed at it that's your flaw not the flaw of CICO.
You really have no clue how science works. No one on this board should listen to what you're saying because not only are you wrong when you give your stance but you don't even know how you got to the position because you are saying you can't even explain it. It's probably 100% likely that you can't explain it because you are blindly listening to that Zoe woman without questioning anything.
You don't know science.
On the contrary - I could say exactly the same about you! But I won't. I respect your views. I had the same ones. Hard to accept there is another way. Another theory. And more and better, newer science. Remember when eggs were bad for you..or fat was the killer and now it's sugar or smoking was 'good for your lungs'.. .. Yes he's let's just accept whatever we are told and never change our views or open our minds.
Wanna have a look at some of the links I posted? All linking to things listing off exactly why that Zoe person doesn't know what she's talking about.
@kellysdavies
Can you comment on the links the user above posted about Zoe?stevencloser wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
WRONG. Because you believe all calories are equal. I was you too. I thought so too. I am living proof this is an invalid theory. There is a way around it. Happy I have found it.
So your saying that ingested energy can just disappear? That would imply that you're a black hole.
So yes you are at a deficit, whether you acknowledge it or not.
She starved herself. For a long time period. I saw her for months talking about eating 1000 calories. And now she's saying 800.
She probably had a raging case of adaptive thermogenesis. She's even saying she thought her maintenance was 1300-1400. Not unless she's already super thin. Which would put her, if trying to lose more weight into some dangerous territory. To get 1300 for maintenance on Scooby's, I just plugged in 110 for weight. And she's lost 6 pounds from that. I forgot her exact age, I used 35.
Houston, we have a problem.
Yes you do have a problem. You can't read. I DID NOT EAT 800 calories. I am 5ft1, was 9stone3, age 36, my BMR was something like 1300. My TDEE maybe 1500 maybe a bit more. NOT ENOUGH for me. I can not sustain this. I did eat 1000 calories for a while because this was the most I could eat and still lose a tiny - ounces - of weight. Bearing in mind I could go down to around 7stone12 and still be in my healthy weight range. I would have had to go to 800 to lose weight without it taking 6 years or something stupid.
You said, in reply to a post of mine suggesting you do a refeed at maintenance, that YOU DID THAT. If you ate 1300 and thought it was a refeed, it wasn't.
You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. You had adaptive thermogenesis. That's why your rate of loss slowed down. Your TDEE at those stats was around 1600 calories. You should have eaten up to that for a while... about 2 weeks if not more, then slowly backed down to eating about your BMR level. You would have resumed a normal rate of loss at that point.
What you've done now is nothing more than a refeed, just as I've outlined here.
Without presenting proof that you're eating in an actual energy surplus (especially since you only counted calories all of once), I frankly don't believe you, unless you have an undiagnosed underlying medical condition (in which case there really isn't an underlying energy surplus).
Not sure how I can prove it? I could put anything into MFP couldn't I? It wouldn't be proof. So today as an example I burned around 1,600 calories which is prob average (I have a FITBIT)
I ate
Breakfast
4 pieces of streaky bacon
3 eggs cooked in butter
A tomato
Lunch
A pack of antipasto meats
Chicken and veg soup
Dinner (Sunday lunch round the mother in law's!)
Boiled egg salad and loads of olive oil
Roast pork, chicken and cauliflower mash, peas and carrots, brocolli and peas
Strawberries and double cream
Cheddar and Brie
A bit of 85% dark chocolate
Decaf teas and coffees about 4
Yesterday - same breakfast (have the same most days - some days porridge and banana)
Lunch - pork chop and cauliflower rice and courgette noodles cooked in butter
Dinner - duck breast and all the skin and same veg
Full fat Greek yoghurt
I'm being as honest as I can here. No lies. You ca chose to believe me or not. It's fine!
Without weights that doesn't help.
Lol! I don't weigh anymore ! Urm, porridge about 100g, pork chop tesco finest - guess about 200g, duck breast maybe 250 (it was big from the butchers) Greek yoghurt half a 500g tub, bacon no idea - just 4 strips of streaky bacon from the butchers, butter large knob, 10g maybe ? Cauliflower half a whole one (medium sized) oh and that has butter in it and onions and garlic ... Strawberries a dessert bowl full and maybe 50ml of double cream (not sure maybe less - the old MFP me still struggles pouring cream on without watching it!) ...
Well there's your problem.
What problem ? I don't have a problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjKPIcI51lU
Works both ways.
The possible problem that you're looking at the food and thinking "Oh that must be like 2000 calories!" when it might in fact be a lot less. And now attributing it on that diet by someone who has no business creating diets.0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »I love these people who have no idea how much they are eating but insist they are eating at a surplus despite losing weight (or vice versa).
*Sigh*. Why was that enough to get me off me *kitten* and headed out for a run?I took a nap, why is everyone on kelly's case? What "claims" is she making that you see as aren't true?
I went back 6 pages trying to catch up, but, yeah, that's not going to work in a reasonable time frame.
Dunno about anyone else. Personally I was told I wasn't interesting. When I thought about it, I decided Kelly was
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I took a nap, why is everyone on kelly's case? What "claims" is she making that you see as aren't true?
I went back 6 pages trying to catch up, but, yeah, that's not going to work in a reasonable time frame.
We can lose weight (fat) while in a caloric surplus. A net deficit isn't needed.
We can't eat fat and carbs together.
Haters gonna hate ...
Yes to your first point. This is the bit which jars with everyone because I choose to believe not all calories are equal..and it's daft to think all our food does the same thing in our bodies ..
No to your second. But I am following a food lifestyle where I don't do this while I am losing weight. Or to lose weight. Once I am where I am wanna a be a bit of mixing comes back into play. But I'll always 'manage' my carbs - if i get to this point. Not sure I will cause I'm losing the will to live right now.
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Wow.....that woman is so dumb.stevencloser wrote: »Short google search on Miss Harcombe:
http://www.badscience.net/2011/01/how-to-read-a-paper/
http://bitemywords.com/tag/zoe-harcombe/
http://blog.wcrf-uk.org/2010/11/is-zoe-harcombe’s-advice-based-on-solid-scientific-evidence/
http://carbsanity.blogspot.de/2010/12/insulin-wars-i-anonymous-lc-author.html
http://carbsanity.blogspot.de/2011/08/zoe-harcombe-credentials.html
http://wwddtydty.com/2015/01/evil-asa-4-zoe-harcombe/
And so on.
Dumb? Probably not. Just another charlton who found a way to separate people from their money.0 -
I took a nap, why is everyone on kelly's case? What "claims" is she making that you see as aren't true?
I went back 6 pages trying to catch up, but, yeah, that's not going to work in a reasonable time frame.
We can lose weight (fat) while in a caloric surplus. A net deficit isn't needed.
We can't eat fat and carbs together.
Well if that's the case, I do understand her point of view, but I think she misunderstood what actually happened. I seen many low carbers go around saying "I used to eat x calories, and i couldn't lose weight, now i eat x+y calories and I am losing weight, calories don't matter"
As I said so myself, I 'when I do low carb I lose at 2,500 calories, when i incorporate a higher carb intake I have to eat around 2,000 calories"
The thing with these types of diets they don't have such a big negative impact on metabolic rate.
"Among overweight and obese young adults compared with pre-weight-loss energy expenditure, isocaloric feeding following 10% to 15% weight loss resulted in decreases in REE and TEE that were greatest with the low-fat diet, intermediate with the low-glycemic index diet, and least with the very low-carbohydrate diet"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735432
My own personal data comparing a LOW CAL DIET and keto
Crash diet results for 28 days
Caloric Intake: 1461
Fat Mass Loss: 12.9lbs
LBM: 171lbs
Estiamted TDEE: 2839 (calculated from results)
Keto 28 day results
Calorie intake: 2,379
Fat Mass Loss: 8.9lbs
LBM: 170lbs
Estimated TDEE: 3,491
*cough cough*
"was greatest with the low-fat diet (mean [95% CI], -205 [-265 to -144] kcal/d), intermediate with the low-glycemic index diet (-166 [-227 to -106] kcal/d), and least with the very low-carbohydrate diet (-138 [-198 to -77] kcal/d;"
A 70 calorie difference.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
Wow.....that woman is so dumb.stevencloser wrote: »Short google search on Miss Harcombe:
http://www.badscience.net/2011/01/how-to-read-a-paper/
http://bitemywords.com/tag/zoe-harcombe/
http://blog.wcrf-uk.org/2010/11/is-zoe-harcombe’s-advice-based-on-solid-scientific-evidence/
http://carbsanity.blogspot.de/2010/12/insulin-wars-i-anonymous-lc-author.html
http://carbsanity.blogspot.de/2011/08/zoe-harcombe-credentials.html
http://wwddtydty.com/2015/01/evil-asa-4-zoe-harcombe/
And so on.
Dumb? Probably not. Just another charlton who found a way to separate people from their money.
Yep, in the end it comes down to just another way for someone to stuff their pockets. P0 -
FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »Since it got pushed into page 12, I'll ask again in case you missed it for the 5th time....kellysdavies wrote: »What question do you want answered? I am not the scientist behind the diet - just someone who has tried it after a long time doing CICO and it is so far successful for me.
Really you're going to pretend you didn't see the questions? You even responded to the post by starting out saying "Yez, yes I can". Here I will post the sake questions for a 4th time.
So what you're saying is that by eating fat and carbs together we will not be able to lose fat because our bodies are always burning carbs? So at no point in the day will our body tap into stored fat reserves for energy since we are in a caloric deficit? Does eating fat and carbs negate the laws of thermodynamics?
No. I am not saying this. You will until a certain point. I am saying the body will always use energy from carbs first.
Can you explain to me why then was I able to lose the weight I wanted to (75 lbs) all without following that rule to not eat fat and carbs together?
Yes. For the same reason I was able to lose 1stone7lb on CICO then it stopped despite having probably another stone to go. Because I was starving it. Then my body got used to it and was like 'hang on. We need to start storing some of this'. It readjusted. All CICO work at first. I am not explaining this very well. It's like that American starvation experiment where after a certain point the men weren't losing at the same rate and some even maintaining.. Despite still eating same number of calories a day. According to the CICO theory they should have disappeared!
Are you also saying you can lose weight while being in a caloric surplus?
Yes. Not sure I can be any clearer on this answer?kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
Shhh don't talk sense, it's all magic and unicorns, you know that SLL.
Nah. Just understanding food and calories as a unit of measurement properly. While an inch is an inch, a calorie isn't always a calorie once it is in the body. No magic, no unicorns. Basics.
100 calories of apple is the same as 100 calories of cake, except the cake will be a whole lot smaller than than the apple. Your body knows no difference, but your mind might.
The body uses 100 calories worth of carb very differently to 100 calories worth of fat. Not all calories are equal.
Why is that the same kind of cookie cutter answer all of you that pop in with these arguments use? Answer the questions and stop with the posts rambling.
Okay. I disagree. A 100 calories of apple is not the same as 100 calories of cake. The body will use the nutrients - or the bits that make them an apple or make them a cake - in different ways.
Well I used CICO the entire way, you failed at it that's your flaw not the flaw of CICO.
You really have no clue how science works. No one on this board should listen to what you're saying because not only are you wrong when you give your stance but you don't even know how you got to the position because you are saying you can't even explain it. It's probably 100% likely that you can't explain it because you are blindly listening to that Zoe woman without questioning anything.
You don't know science.
So on your theory I shouldn't blindly follow something and I should question it. Urm. So this is what happened with CICO...
Well at least if you ask me how CICO works, how the body works, how macronutrients get metabolized I can explain that I have answers. You can't. You are claiming things that differ from actual science but you yourself said you can't even explain yourself.stevencloser wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »Since it got pushed into page 12, I'll ask again in case you missed it for the 5th time....kellysdavies wrote: »What question do you want answered? I am not the scientist behind the diet - just someone who has tried it after a long time doing CICO and it is so far successful for me.
Really you're going to pretend you didn't see the questions? You even responded to the post by starting out saying "Yez, yes I can". Here I will post the sake questions for a 4th time.
So what you're saying is that by eating fat and carbs together we will not be able to lose fat because our bodies are always burning carbs? So at no point in the day will our body tap into stored fat reserves for energy since we are in a caloric deficit? Does eating fat and carbs negate the laws of thermodynamics?
No. I am not saying this. You will until a certain point. I am saying the body will always use energy from carbs first.
Can you explain to me why then was I able to lose the weight I wanted to (75 lbs) all without following that rule to not eat fat and carbs together?
Yes. For the same reason I was able to lose 1stone7lb on CICO then it stopped despite having probably another stone to go. Because I was starving it. Then my body got used to it and was like 'hang on. We need to start storing some of this'. It readjusted. All CICO work at first. I am not explaining this very well. It's like that American starvation experiment where after a certain point the men weren't losing at the same rate and some even maintaining.. Despite still eating same number of calories a day. According to the CICO theory they should have disappeared!
Are you also saying you can lose weight while being in a caloric surplus?
Yes. Not sure I can be any clearer on this answer?kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
Shhh don't talk sense, it's all magic and unicorns, you know that SLL.
Nah. Just understanding food and calories as a unit of measurement properly. While an inch is an inch, a calorie isn't always a calorie once it is in the body. No magic, no unicorns. Basics.
100 calories of apple is the same as 100 calories of cake, except the cake will be a whole lot smaller than than the apple. Your body knows no difference, but your mind might.
The body uses 100 calories worth of carb very differently to 100 calories worth of fat. Not all calories are equal.
Why is that the same kind of cookie cutter answer all of you that pop in with these arguments use? Answer the questions and stop with the posts rambling.
Okay. I disagree. A 100 calories of apple is not the same as 100 calories of cake. The body will use the nutrients - or the bits that make them an apple or make them a cake - in different ways.
Well I used CICO the entire way, you failed at it that's your flaw not the flaw of CICO.
You really have no clue how science works. No one on this board should listen to what you're saying because not only are you wrong when you give your stance but you don't even know how you got to the position because you are saying you can't even explain it. It's probably 100% likely that you can't explain it because you are blindly listening to that Zoe woman without questioning anything.
You don't know science.
On the contrary - I could say exactly the same about you! But I won't. I respect your views. I had the same ones. Hard to accept there is another way. Another theory. And more and better, newer science. Remember when eggs were bad for you..or fat was the killer and now it's sugar or smoking was 'good for your lungs'.. .. Yes he's let's just accept whatever we are told and never change our views or open our minds.
Wanna have a look at some of the links I posted? All linking to things listing off exactly why that Zoe person doesn't know what she's talking about.
@kellysdavies
Can you comment on the links the user above posted about Zoe?stevencloser wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
WRONG. Because you believe all calories are equal. I was you too. I thought so too. I am living proof this is an invalid theory. There is a way around it. Happy I have found it.
So your saying that ingested energy can just disappear? That would imply that you're a black hole.
So yes you are at a deficit, whether you acknowledge it or not.
She starved herself. For a long time period. I saw her for months talking about eating 1000 calories. And now she's saying 800.
She probably had a raging case of adaptive thermogenesis. She's even saying she thought her maintenance was 1300-1400. Not unless she's already super thin. Which would put her, if trying to lose more weight into some dangerous territory. To get 1300 for maintenance on Scooby's, I just plugged in 110 for weight. And she's lost 6 pounds from that. I forgot her exact age, I used 35.
Houston, we have a problem.
Yes you do have a problem. You can't read. I DID NOT EAT 800 calories. I am 5ft1, was 9stone3, age 36, my BMR was something like 1300. My TDEE maybe 1500 maybe a bit more. NOT ENOUGH for me. I can not sustain this. I did eat 1000 calories for a while because this was the most I could eat and still lose a tiny - ounces - of weight. Bearing in mind I could go down to around 7stone12 and still be in my healthy weight range. I would have had to go to 800 to lose weight without it taking 6 years or something stupid.
You said, in reply to a post of mine suggesting you do a refeed at maintenance, that YOU DID THAT. If you ate 1300 and thought it was a refeed, it wasn't.
You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. You had adaptive thermogenesis. That's why your rate of loss slowed down. Your TDEE at those stats was around 1600 calories. You should have eaten up to that for a while... about 2 weeks if not more, then slowly backed down to eating about your BMR level. You would have resumed a normal rate of loss at that point.
What you've done now is nothing more than a refeed, just as I've outlined here.
Without presenting proof that you're eating in an actual energy surplus (especially since you only counted calories all of once), I frankly don't believe you, unless you have an undiagnosed underlying medical condition (in which case there really isn't an underlying energy surplus).
Not sure how I can prove it? I could put anything into MFP couldn't I? It wouldn't be proof. So today as an example I burned around 1,600 calories which is prob average (I have a FITBIT)
I ate
Breakfast
4 pieces of streaky bacon
3 eggs cooked in butter
A tomato
Lunch
A pack of antipasto meats
Chicken and veg soup
Dinner (Sunday lunch round the mother in law's!)
Boiled egg salad and loads of olive oil
Roast pork, chicken and cauliflower mash, peas and carrots, brocolli and peas
Strawberries and double cream
Cheddar and Brie
A bit of 85% dark chocolate
Decaf teas and coffees about 4
Yesterday - same breakfast (have the same most days - some days porridge and banana)
Lunch - pork chop and cauliflower rice and courgette noodles cooked in butter
Dinner - duck breast and all the skin and same veg
Full fat Greek yoghurt
I'm being as honest as I can here. No lies. You ca chose to believe me or not. It's fine!
Without weights that doesn't help.
Lol! I don't weigh anymore ! Urm, porridge about 100g, pork chop tesco finest - guess about 200g, duck breast maybe 250 (it was big from the butchers) Greek yoghurt half a 500g tub, bacon no idea - just 4 strips of streaky bacon from the butchers, butter large knob, 10g maybe ? Cauliflower half a whole one (medium sized) oh and that has butter in it and onions and garlic ... Strawberries a dessert bowl full and maybe 50ml of double cream (not sure maybe less - the old MFP me still struggles pouring cream on without watching it!) ...
Ding ding ding! Here's your problem. You have no clue how many calories you are eating because you don't weigh your food. It's simple. Weigh your food if you want to lose weight.
I don't want to! I don't want to weigh my food! I don't NEED to know how many calories I am eating because it doesn't matter. That's the whole frigging point of what I am doing.
I am losing weight. I am not eating processed foods, I am eating all natural foods. I am not mixing fats and carbs (apart from veg and salad). That's all there is to it and I am losing weight. Again. And I am eating way more calories than I was doing CICO and I weigh a stone and a half less now.
0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I took a nap, why is everyone on kelly's case? What "claims" is she making that you see as aren't true?
I went back 6 pages trying to catch up, but, yeah, that's not going to work in a reasonable time frame.
We can lose weight (fat) while in a caloric surplus. A net deficit isn't needed.
We can't eat fat and carbs together.
Well if that's the case, I do understand her point of view, but I think she misunderstood what actually happened. I seen many low carbers go around saying "I used to eat x calories, and i couldn't lose weight, now i eat x+y calories and I am losing weight, calories don't matter"
As I said so myself, I 'when I do low carb I lose at 2,500 calories, when i incorporate a higher carb intake I have to eat around 2,000 calories"
The thing with these types of diets they don't have such a big negative impact on metabolic rate.
"Among overweight and obese young adults compared with pre-weight-loss energy expenditure, isocaloric feeding following 10% to 15% weight loss resulted in decreases in REE and TEE that were greatest with the low-fat diet, intermediate with the low-glycemic index diet, and least with the very low-carbohydrate diet"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735432
My own personal data comparing a LOW CAL DIET and keto
Crash diet results for 28 days
Caloric Intake: 1461
Fat Mass Loss: 12.9lbs
LBM: 171lbs
Estiamted TDEE: 2839 (calculated from results)
Keto 28 day results
Calorie intake: 2,379
Fat Mass Loss: 8.9lbs
LBM: 170lbs
Estimated TDEE: 3,491
*cough cough*
"was greatest with the low-fat diet (mean [95% CI], -205 [-265 to -144] kcal/d), intermediate with the low-glycemic index diet (-166 [-227 to -106] kcal/d), and least with the very low-carbohydrate diet (-138 [-198 to -77] kcal/d;"
A 70 calorie difference.
Yes the metabolic decline was "greater" with the low fat diet... the low carb diet had the least amount of metabolic decline.
Yes, by 70. Not 500.
Edit: almost 700 even according to your own data.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
Wow.....that woman is so dumb.stevencloser wrote: »Short google search on Miss Harcombe:
http://www.badscience.net/2011/01/how-to-read-a-paper/
http://bitemywords.com/tag/zoe-harcombe/
http://blog.wcrf-uk.org/2010/11/is-zoe-harcombe’s-advice-based-on-solid-scientific-evidence/
http://carbsanity.blogspot.de/2010/12/insulin-wars-i-anonymous-lc-author.html
http://carbsanity.blogspot.de/2011/08/zoe-harcombe-credentials.html
http://wwddtydty.com/2015/01/evil-asa-4-zoe-harcombe/
And so on.
Dumb? Probably not. Just another charlton who found a way to separate people from their money.
I haven't paid a penny.
0 -
OP yes i learned the same thing. I increased my carbs these last few days due to some supplements I am taking. And I have been over my calories. I rarely go over my calories when I eat a keto based diet. I am over my calories because i ate some cheez-its, now i am still hungry. Maybe biological science doesn't exist and it's just bad luck.
How many calories do you eat that Cheez-its would put you over your goal?0 -
kellysdavies wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Wow.....that woman is so dumb.stevencloser wrote: »Short google search on Miss Harcombe:
http://www.badscience.net/2011/01/how-to-read-a-paper/
http://bitemywords.com/tag/zoe-harcombe/
http://blog.wcrf-uk.org/2010/11/is-zoe-harcombe’s-advice-based-on-solid-scientific-evidence/
http://carbsanity.blogspot.de/2010/12/insulin-wars-i-anonymous-lc-author.html
http://carbsanity.blogspot.de/2011/08/zoe-harcombe-credentials.html
http://wwddtydty.com/2015/01/evil-asa-4-zoe-harcombe/
And so on.
Dumb? Probably not. Just another charlton who found a way to separate people from their money.
I haven't paid a penny.
But you don't mind selling for her and telling everyone to run out and get her book. Or that her diet is just what you're looking for!0 -
I took a nap, why is everyone on kelly's case? What "claims" is she making that you see as aren't true?
I went back 6 pages trying to catch up, but, yeah, that's not going to work in a reasonable time frame.
We can lose weight (fat) while in a caloric surplus. A net deficit isn't needed.
We can't eat fat and carbs together.
But she's eating vegetables with butter, and it looked like some of her veggies were starchy, like peas.
And strawberries and cream. When I suffered through the idiocy of food combining, that was a no-no.
0 -
Unless one or all of you are registered dieticians, I would suggest putting your feet where your mouths are if you're just going to be insulting and resort to ad hominem attacks on each other.0
-
kellysdavies wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »Since it got pushed into page 12, I'll ask again in case you missed it for the 5th time....kellysdavies wrote: »What question do you want answered? I am not the scientist behind the diet - just someone who has tried it after a long time doing CICO and it is so far successful for me.
Really you're going to pretend you didn't see the questions? You even responded to the post by starting out saying "Yez, yes I can". Here I will post the sake questions for a 4th time.
So what you're saying is that by eating fat and carbs together we will not be able to lose fat because our bodies are always burning carbs? So at no point in the day will our body tap into stored fat reserves for energy since we are in a caloric deficit? Does eating fat and carbs negate the laws of thermodynamics?
No. I am not saying this. You will until a certain point. I am saying the body will always use energy from carbs first.
Can you explain to me why then was I able to lose the weight I wanted to (75 lbs) all without following that rule to not eat fat and carbs together?
Yes. For the same reason I was able to lose 1stone7lb on CICO then it stopped despite having probably another stone to go. Because I was starving it. Then my body got used to it and was like 'hang on. We need to start storing some of this'. It readjusted. All CICO work at first. I am not explaining this very well. It's like that American starvation experiment where after a certain point the men weren't losing at the same rate and some even maintaining.. Despite still eating same number of calories a day. According to the CICO theory they should have disappeared!
Are you also saying you can lose weight while being in a caloric surplus?
Yes. Not sure I can be any clearer on this answer?kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
Shhh don't talk sense, it's all magic and unicorns, you know that SLL.
Nah. Just understanding food and calories as a unit of measurement properly. While an inch is an inch, a calorie isn't always a calorie once it is in the body. No magic, no unicorns. Basics.
100 calories of apple is the same as 100 calories of cake, except the cake will be a whole lot smaller than than the apple. Your body knows no difference, but your mind might.
The body uses 100 calories worth of carb very differently to 100 calories worth of fat. Not all calories are equal.
Why is that the same kind of cookie cutter answer all of you that pop in with these arguments use? Answer the questions and stop with the posts rambling.
Okay. I disagree. A 100 calories of apple is not the same as 100 calories of cake. The body will use the nutrients - or the bits that make them an apple or make them a cake - in different ways.
Well I used CICO the entire way, you failed at it that's your flaw not the flaw of CICO.
You really have no clue how science works. No one on this board should listen to what you're saying because not only are you wrong when you give your stance but you don't even know how you got to the position because you are saying you can't even explain it. It's probably 100% likely that you can't explain it because you are blindly listening to that Zoe woman without questioning anything.
You don't know science.
So on your theory I shouldn't blindly follow something and I should question it. Urm. So this is what happened with CICO...
Well at least if you ask me how CICO works, how the body works, how macronutrients get metabolized I can explain that I have answers. You can't. You are claiming things that differ from actual science but you yourself said you can't even explain yourself.stevencloser wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »Since it got pushed into page 12, I'll ask again in case you missed it for the 5th time....kellysdavies wrote: »What question do you want answered? I am not the scientist behind the diet - just someone who has tried it after a long time doing CICO and it is so far successful for me.
Really you're going to pretend you didn't see the questions? You even responded to the post by starting out saying "Yez, yes I can". Here I will post the sake questions for a 4th time.
So what you're saying is that by eating fat and carbs together we will not be able to lose fat because our bodies are always burning carbs? So at no point in the day will our body tap into stored fat reserves for energy since we are in a caloric deficit? Does eating fat and carbs negate the laws of thermodynamics?
No. I am not saying this. You will until a certain point. I am saying the body will always use energy from carbs first.
Can you explain to me why then was I able to lose the weight I wanted to (75 lbs) all without following that rule to not eat fat and carbs together?
Yes. For the same reason I was able to lose 1stone7lb on CICO then it stopped despite having probably another stone to go. Because I was starving it. Then my body got used to it and was like 'hang on. We need to start storing some of this'. It readjusted. All CICO work at first. I am not explaining this very well. It's like that American starvation experiment where after a certain point the men weren't losing at the same rate and some even maintaining.. Despite still eating same number of calories a day. According to the CICO theory they should have disappeared!
Are you also saying you can lose weight while being in a caloric surplus?
Yes. Not sure I can be any clearer on this answer?kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
Shhh don't talk sense, it's all magic and unicorns, you know that SLL.
Nah. Just understanding food and calories as a unit of measurement properly. While an inch is an inch, a calorie isn't always a calorie once it is in the body. No magic, no unicorns. Basics.
100 calories of apple is the same as 100 calories of cake, except the cake will be a whole lot smaller than than the apple. Your body knows no difference, but your mind might.
The body uses 100 calories worth of carb very differently to 100 calories worth of fat. Not all calories are equal.
Why is that the same kind of cookie cutter answer all of you that pop in with these arguments use? Answer the questions and stop with the posts rambling.
Okay. I disagree. A 100 calories of apple is not the same as 100 calories of cake. The body will use the nutrients - or the bits that make them an apple or make them a cake - in different ways.
Well I used CICO the entire way, you failed at it that's your flaw not the flaw of CICO.
You really have no clue how science works. No one on this board should listen to what you're saying because not only are you wrong when you give your stance but you don't even know how you got to the position because you are saying you can't even explain it. It's probably 100% likely that you can't explain it because you are blindly listening to that Zoe woman without questioning anything.
You don't know science.
On the contrary - I could say exactly the same about you! But I won't. I respect your views. I had the same ones. Hard to accept there is another way. Another theory. And more and better, newer science. Remember when eggs were bad for you..or fat was the killer and now it's sugar or smoking was 'good for your lungs'.. .. Yes he's let's just accept whatever we are told and never change our views or open our minds.
Wanna have a look at some of the links I posted? All linking to things listing off exactly why that Zoe person doesn't know what she's talking about.
@kellysdavies
Can you comment on the links the user above posted about Zoe?stevencloser wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »kellysdavies wrote: »
Oh no, to lose weight on any diet you need to eat at a deficit. There is no way around that.
WRONG. Because you believe all calories are equal. I was you too. I thought so too. I am living proof this is an invalid theory. There is a way around it. Happy I have found it.
So your saying that ingested energy can just disappear? That would imply that you're a black hole.
So yes you are at a deficit, whether you acknowledge it or not.
She starved herself. For a long time period. I saw her for months talking about eating 1000 calories. And now she's saying 800.
She probably had a raging case of adaptive thermogenesis. She's even saying she thought her maintenance was 1300-1400. Not unless she's already super thin. Which would put her, if trying to lose more weight into some dangerous territory. To get 1300 for maintenance on Scooby's, I just plugged in 110 for weight. And she's lost 6 pounds from that. I forgot her exact age, I used 35.
Houston, we have a problem.
Yes you do have a problem. You can't read. I DID NOT EAT 800 calories. I am 5ft1, was 9stone3, age 36, my BMR was something like 1300. My TDEE maybe 1500 maybe a bit more. NOT ENOUGH for me. I can not sustain this. I did eat 1000 calories for a while because this was the most I could eat and still lose a tiny - ounces - of weight. Bearing in mind I could go down to around 7stone12 and still be in my healthy weight range. I would have had to go to 800 to lose weight without it taking 6 years or something stupid.
You said, in reply to a post of mine suggesting you do a refeed at maintenance, that YOU DID THAT. If you ate 1300 and thought it was a refeed, it wasn't.
You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. You had adaptive thermogenesis. That's why your rate of loss slowed down. Your TDEE at those stats was around 1600 calories. You should have eaten up to that for a while... about 2 weeks if not more, then slowly backed down to eating about your BMR level. You would have resumed a normal rate of loss at that point.
What you've done now is nothing more than a refeed, just as I've outlined here.
Without presenting proof that you're eating in an actual energy surplus (especially since you only counted calories all of once), I frankly don't believe you, unless you have an undiagnosed underlying medical condition (in which case there really isn't an underlying energy surplus).
Not sure how I can prove it? I could put anything into MFP couldn't I? It wouldn't be proof. So today as an example I burned around 1,600 calories which is prob average (I have a FITBIT)
I ate
Breakfast
4 pieces of streaky bacon
3 eggs cooked in butter
A tomato
Lunch
A pack of antipasto meats
Chicken and veg soup
Dinner (Sunday lunch round the mother in law's!)
Boiled egg salad and loads of olive oil
Roast pork, chicken and cauliflower mash, peas and carrots, brocolli and peas
Strawberries and double cream
Cheddar and Brie
A bit of 85% dark chocolate
Decaf teas and coffees about 4
Yesterday - same breakfast (have the same most days - some days porridge and banana)
Lunch - pork chop and cauliflower rice and courgette noodles cooked in butter
Dinner - duck breast and all the skin and same veg
Full fat Greek yoghurt
I'm being as honest as I can here. No lies. You ca chose to believe me or not. It's fine!
Without weights that doesn't help.
Lol! I don't weigh anymore ! Urm, porridge about 100g, pork chop tesco finest - guess about 200g, duck breast maybe 250 (it was big from the butchers) Greek yoghurt half a 500g tub, bacon no idea - just 4 strips of streaky bacon from the butchers, butter large knob, 10g maybe ? Cauliflower half a whole one (medium sized) oh and that has butter in it and onions and garlic ... Strawberries a dessert bowl full and maybe 50ml of double cream (not sure maybe less - the old MFP me still struggles pouring cream on without watching it!) ...
Ding ding ding! Here's your problem. You have no clue how many calories you are eating because you don't weigh your food. It's simple. Weigh your food if you want to lose weight.
I don't want to! I don't want to weigh my food! I don't NEED to know how many calories I am eating because it doesn't matter. That's the whole frigging point of what I am doing.
I am losing weight. I am not eating processed foods, I am eating all natural foods. I am not mixing fats and carbs (apart from veg and salad). That's all there is to it and I am losing weight. Again. And I am eating way more calories than I was doing CICO and I weigh a stone and a half less now.
You said earlier that you'd lost 6 lb doing this. Where did the other stone and a bit come from?0 -
strategicchibi wrote: »Unless one or all of you are registered dieticians, I would suggest putting your feet where your mouths are if you're just going to be insulting and resort to ad hominem attacks on each other.
The person who made that diet isn't one either, soooo....0
This discussion has been closed.
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