Obesity Journal study: It's not just CICO
Replies
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KetoneKaren wrote: »@stevencloser
You aren't quoting me except the first line. That must be someone else's post.
Ah, sorry was a different person.0 -
@stevencloser No problem!0
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KetoneKaren wrote: »KetoneKaren wrote: »No it isn't remission according, once again, to my endocrinologist. If you have a normal Hgb A1c and you aren't on any meds, you no longer have diabetes. If your BP normalizes because of lifestyle changes you make, and you are no longer on BP meds, you are no longer hypertensive. You are not in remission from high blood pressure.
I disagree.
There are many, many people who engage in behaviors and make choices that would generally be considered risk factors for diabetes and hypertension (among other examples). Except, for whatever genetic or lifestyle or random reason, they never develop diabetes and hypertension. Those are the people who do not have diabetes or hypertension (yet, I'll grant you that, though a large percentage of people never develop conditions for which they'd be considered high risk due to such factors).
People who were once Type 2 diabetic or who once had hypertension (meaning, that they had medically tested uncontrolled blood sugars or blood pressure and whatever other related symptoms) and may or may not have been on medications to control these diseases, but now are controlling the diseases through diet/exercise/other lifestyle changes, are still diabetic or hypertensive. They still have the disease, they're just controlling it through means other than medication. If these people were to slip back into behaviors that were not conducive to controlling their diseases, then the diseases would come back, the same way that they would if the person was controlling the disease through medication alone and stopped taking the medication.
Just curious where the point of no return is. If a person's Hgb A1c is measured at 6.5 but he doesn't go on medicine and 3 months later his lifestyle changes result in a Hgb A1c of 5.8, does that person then carry a diagnosis of diabetes for the rest of his life and is forever in remission in your opinion? I would tend to refer to this person as a prediabetic now.
I think of it kind of like cancer remission.
Yes, the cancer may be "gone," but that doesn't mean that you're completely cured or not at higher risk for cancer again. As time goes on, the risk lowers, but from my understanding, it is never again as low as someone who hasn't had it.5 -
queenliz99 wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »Hell big pharma is the reason why insulin shots exist.
NOPE, the man who won the Nobel for isolating insulin, Dr. Banting, gave his patent away for free because he believed this life-saving drug should be available to everyone who needed it. Big Pharma is the reason new (but not necessarily more effective) versions of insulin are constantly created when patents run out so that they can keep the prices as high as possible.
Insulin is an amazing drug for type 1 diabetics. It's the reason two of my immediate family members are still alive today. Insulin, however, is a horrible treatment for type 2 diabetics, and does nothing to cure the root cause of their disease, but instead exacerbates it.
Lantus was #6 in the top 10 most profitable drugs in 2014, grossing 7.28 billion. http://qz.com/349929/best-selling-drugs-in-the-world/
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
That nutrition advice is confusing garbage for good reason.
@psulemon
Searching through the web you can find so many examples of people who stopped T2 diabetes in its tracks by not listening to the stupid ADA, and not listening to their stupid doctor. They simply cut out refined sugar, fruit juice and grains from their diet, limited fruit consumption, and Voila! - no T2 diabetes.
But without funding from Big Pharma, the ADA would be mostly out of business. So they recommend a too-high carb diet, which keeps people or makes people diabetic. It is criminal, and it is a disgrace.
And if you watch cable news, you are inundated with the latest and greatest diabetes drug. And next year there will be another one that reduces blood sugars 1% more than the current one.
Dr. Banting is rolling in his grave.
Totally agree. It's an utter disgrace. The vast majority of people are totally clueless. Even diabetes educators at the hospital know that the ketogenic diet works so much better for T2DM, but their hands are tied and they aren't allowed to teach it. ADA guidelines are taught to protect medicare/medicaid reimbursement.
Hogwash
Get a clue.... and you already mentioned you work for Big Pharma, so... I'm not surprised.
Absolute and utter hogwash.
And what's worse, 100% falsifiable by 5 seconds of googling.
http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/what-can-i-eat/understanding-carbohydrates/
Wow, look at them just telling you to eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication!
That's the kind of BS claims that make me actually angry, because there's just no excuse.
I'm confused, Steven. What exactly is this link suppose to confirm? You're building a strawman by saying "eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication." The point is: that 45-60 g of carbs per meal is arbitrary and unhelpful. T2DM is a dietary disease, and it needs a dietary cure. If these people want to heal their underlying disease and get off medication, they need intensive changes. Changes the ADA is not telling them about.
There is no healing from diabetes.
You sound like a walking popup advertisement "CLICK HERE TO SEE WHAT THE ADA IS NOT TELLING YOU ABOUT! YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT!"
*shrug* Who cares what I sound like? Seriously, there is no healing from diabetes!? Then how do you explain people who've done it? When someone goes from using exogenous insulin everyday to control blood sugar to no need for the medication while still controlling blood sugar: I call that healing! Smh. I guess the only option is medication for the rest of their lives then.
If you still have it and it's just not acting up THAT'S NOT HEALING.
Ok, whatever you want to call it or however you want to define it. It's possible, it happens, it's a real thing XD
It's remission
OK, then, remission is it. Why are we quibbling over terminology? The point is: if you want to cure your T2DM or put your T2DM "in remission," the ADA guidelines are not very helpful.
No quibbling here but do you know the difference between remission and healing? I think not.
Uh, since when does the difference even matter? It would be specific to the disease process and the individual. What practical difference does your terminology make?
When someone has been told they have been healed they think, oooh, they can let their guard down, ease up on calorie counting, go back to their old bad habits, no more exercising. Yippee!! But remission is that the disease, any disease is always looming in the background, they should never let their guard down and need to stay super villigent. Big difference.
Ah, so that's your point. Seems pretty darn obvious to me. If your disease was caused by lifestyle and "remitted" by changing that lifestyle, you wouldn't want to return to old habits. Thanks for clearing that up!0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »Hell big pharma is the reason why insulin shots exist.
NOPE, the man who won the Nobel for isolating insulin, Dr. Banting, gave his patent away for free because he believed this life-saving drug should be available to everyone who needed it. Big Pharma is the reason new (but not necessarily more effective) versions of insulin are constantly created when patents run out so that they can keep the prices as high as possible.
Insulin is an amazing drug for type 1 diabetics. It's the reason two of my immediate family members are still alive today. Insulin, however, is a horrible treatment for type 2 diabetics, and does nothing to cure the root cause of their disease, but instead exacerbates it.
Lantus was #6 in the top 10 most profitable drugs in 2014, grossing 7.28 billion. http://qz.com/349929/best-selling-drugs-in-the-world/
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
That nutrition advice is confusing garbage for good reason.
@psulemon
Searching through the web you can find so many examples of people who stopped T2 diabetes in its tracks by not listening to the stupid ADA, and not listening to their stupid doctor. They simply cut out refined sugar, fruit juice and grains from their diet, limited fruit consumption, and Voila! - no T2 diabetes.
But without funding from Big Pharma, the ADA would be mostly out of business. So they recommend a too-high carb diet, which keeps people or makes people diabetic. It is criminal, and it is a disgrace.
And if you watch cable news, you are inundated with the latest and greatest diabetes drug. And next year there will be another one that reduces blood sugars 1% more than the current one.
Dr. Banting is rolling in his grave.
Totally agree. It's an utter disgrace. The vast majority of people are totally clueless. Even diabetes educators at the hospital know that the ketogenic diet works so much better for T2DM, but their hands are tied and they aren't allowed to teach it. ADA guidelines are taught to protect medicare/medicaid reimbursement.
Hogwash
Get a clue.... and you already mentioned you work for Big Pharma, so... I'm not surprised.
Absolute and utter hogwash.
And what's worse, 100% falsifiable by 5 seconds of googling.
http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/what-can-i-eat/understanding-carbohydrates/
Wow, look at them just telling you to eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication!
That's the kind of BS claims that make me actually angry, because there's just no excuse.
I'm confused, Steven. What exactly is this link suppose to confirm? You're building a strawman by saying "eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication." The point is: that 45-60 g of carbs per meal is arbitrary and unhelpful. T2DM is a dietary disease, and it needs a dietary cure. If these people want to heal their underlying disease and get off medication, they need intensive changes. Changes the ADA is not telling them about.
There is no healing from diabetes.
You sound like a walking popup advertisement "CLICK HERE TO SEE WHAT THE ADA IS NOT TELLING YOU ABOUT! YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT!"
*shrug* Who cares what I sound like? Seriously, there is no healing from diabetes!? Then how do you explain people who've done it? When someone goes from using exogenous insulin everyday to control blood sugar to no need for the medication while still controlling blood sugar: I call that healing! Smh. I guess the only option is medication for the rest of their lives then.
If you still have it and it's just not acting up THAT'S NOT HEALING.
Ok, whatever you want to call it or however you want to define it. It's possible, it happens, it's a real thing XD
It's remission
OK, then, remission is it. Why are we quibbling over terminology? The point is: if you want to cure your T2DM or put your T2DM "in remission," the ADA guidelines are not very helpful.
No quibbling here but do you know the difference between remission and healing? I think not.
Uh, since when does the difference even matter? It would be specific to the disease process and the individual. What practical difference does your terminology make?
You are a nurse?
ETA: I ask only because I would hope expect that any nurse treating a loved one of mine would know the difference between remission and "cured" and use the correct terminology, since there is a big difference.
Yes, these are the things that matter.0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »Hell big pharma is the reason why insulin shots exist.
NOPE, the man who won the Nobel for isolating insulin, Dr. Banting, gave his patent away for free because he believed this life-saving drug should be available to everyone who needed it. Big Pharma is the reason new (but not necessarily more effective) versions of insulin are constantly created when patents run out so that they can keep the prices as high as possible.
Insulin is an amazing drug for type 1 diabetics. It's the reason two of my immediate family members are still alive today. Insulin, however, is a horrible treatment for type 2 diabetics, and does nothing to cure the root cause of their disease, but instead exacerbates it.
Lantus was #6 in the top 10 most profitable drugs in 2014, grossing 7.28 billion. http://qz.com/349929/best-selling-drugs-in-the-world/
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
That nutrition advice is confusing garbage for good reason.
@psulemon
Searching through the web you can find so many examples of people who stopped T2 diabetes in its tracks by not listening to the stupid ADA, and not listening to their stupid doctor. They simply cut out refined sugar, fruit juice and grains from their diet, limited fruit consumption, and Voila! - no T2 diabetes.
But without funding from Big Pharma, the ADA would be mostly out of business. So they recommend a too-high carb diet, which keeps people or makes people diabetic. It is criminal, and it is a disgrace.
And if you watch cable news, you are inundated with the latest and greatest diabetes drug. And next year there will be another one that reduces blood sugars 1% more than the current one.
Dr. Banting is rolling in his grave.
Totally agree. It's an utter disgrace. The vast majority of people are totally clueless. Even diabetes educators at the hospital know that the ketogenic diet works so much better for T2DM, but their hands are tied and they aren't allowed to teach it. ADA guidelines are taught to protect medicare/medicaid reimbursement.
Hogwash
Get a clue.... and you already mentioned you work for Big Pharma, so... I'm not surprised.
Absolute and utter hogwash.
And what's worse, 100% falsifiable by 5 seconds of googling.
http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/what-can-i-eat/understanding-carbohydrates/
Wow, look at them just telling you to eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication!
That's the kind of BS claims that make me actually angry, because there's just no excuse.
I'm confused, Steven. What exactly is this link suppose to confirm? You're building a strawman by saying "eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication." The point is: that 45-60 g of carbs per meal is arbitrary and unhelpful. T2DM is a dietary disease, and it needs a dietary cure. If these people want to heal their underlying disease and get off medication, they need intensive changes. Changes the ADA is not telling them about.
There is no healing from diabetes.
You sound like a walking popup advertisement "CLICK HERE TO SEE WHAT THE ADA IS NOT TELLING YOU ABOUT! YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT!"
*shrug* Who cares what I sound like? Seriously, there is no healing from diabetes!? Then how do you explain people who've done it? When someone goes from using exogenous insulin everyday to control blood sugar to no need for the medication while still controlling blood sugar: I call that healing! Smh. I guess the only option is medication for the rest of their lives then.
If you still have it and it's just not acting up THAT'S NOT HEALING.
Ok, whatever you want to call it or however you want to define it. It's possible, it happens, it's a real thing XD
It's remission
OK, then, remission is it. Why are we quibbling over terminology? The point is: if you want to cure your T2DM or put your T2DM "in remission," the ADA guidelines are not very helpful.
No quibbling here but do you know the difference between remission and healing? I think not.
Uh, since when does the difference even matter? It would be specific to the disease process and the individual. What practical difference does your terminology make?
You are a nurse?
ETA: I ask only because I would hope expect that any nurse treating a loved one of mine would know the difference between remission and "cured" and use the correct terminology, since there is a big difference.
Yes, these are the things that matter.
Amongst other things, darn tootin'!1 -
queenliz99 wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »Hell big pharma is the reason why insulin shots exist.
NOPE, the man who won the Nobel for isolating insulin, Dr. Banting, gave his patent away for free because he believed this life-saving drug should be available to everyone who needed it. Big Pharma is the reason new (but not necessarily more effective) versions of insulin are constantly created when patents run out so that they can keep the prices as high as possible.
Insulin is an amazing drug for type 1 diabetics. It's the reason two of my immediate family members are still alive today. Insulin, however, is a horrible treatment for type 2 diabetics, and does nothing to cure the root cause of their disease, but instead exacerbates it.
Lantus was #6 in the top 10 most profitable drugs in 2014, grossing 7.28 billion. http://qz.com/349929/best-selling-drugs-in-the-world/
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
That nutrition advice is confusing garbage for good reason.
@psulemon
Searching through the web you can find so many examples of people who stopped T2 diabetes in its tracks by not listening to the stupid ADA, and not listening to their stupid doctor. They simply cut out refined sugar, fruit juice and grains from their diet, limited fruit consumption, and Voila! - no T2 diabetes.
But without funding from Big Pharma, the ADA would be mostly out of business. So they recommend a too-high carb diet, which keeps people or makes people diabetic. It is criminal, and it is a disgrace.
And if you watch cable news, you are inundated with the latest and greatest diabetes drug. And next year there will be another one that reduces blood sugars 1% more than the current one.
Dr. Banting is rolling in his grave.
Totally agree. It's an utter disgrace. The vast majority of people are totally clueless. Even diabetes educators at the hospital know that the ketogenic diet works so much better for T2DM, but their hands are tied and they aren't allowed to teach it. ADA guidelines are taught to protect medicare/medicaid reimbursement.
Hogwash
Get a clue.... and you already mentioned you work for Big Pharma, so... I'm not surprised.
Absolute and utter hogwash.
And what's worse, 100% falsifiable by 5 seconds of googling.
http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/what-can-i-eat/understanding-carbohydrates/
Wow, look at them just telling you to eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication!
That's the kind of BS claims that make me actually angry, because there's just no excuse.
I'm confused, Steven. What exactly is this link suppose to confirm? You're building a strawman by saying "eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication." The point is: that 45-60 g of carbs per meal is arbitrary and unhelpful. T2DM is a dietary disease, and it needs a dietary cure. If these people want to heal their underlying disease and get off medication, they need intensive changes. Changes the ADA is not telling them about.
There is no healing from diabetes.
You sound like a walking popup advertisement "CLICK HERE TO SEE WHAT THE ADA IS NOT TELLING YOU ABOUT! YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT!"
*shrug* Who cares what I sound like? Seriously, there is no healing from diabetes!? Then how do you explain people who've done it? When someone goes from using exogenous insulin everyday to control blood sugar to no need for the medication while still controlling blood sugar: I call that healing! Smh. I guess the only option is medication for the rest of their lives then.
If you still have it and it's just not acting up THAT'S NOT HEALING.
Ok, whatever you want to call it or however you want to define it. It's possible, it happens, it's a real thing XD
It's remission
OK, then, remission is it. Why are we quibbling over terminology? The point is: if you want to cure your T2DM or put your T2DM "in remission," the ADA guidelines are not very helpful.
No quibbling here but do you know the difference between remission and healing? I think not.
Uh, since when does the difference even matter? It would be specific to the disease process and the individual. What practical difference does your terminology make?
You are a nurse?
ETA: I ask only because I would hope expect that any nurse treating a loved one of mine would know the difference between remission and "cured" and use the correct terminology, since there is a big difference.
Yes, these are the things that matter.
Amongst other things, darn tootin'!
Yes, of course, and I've also learned here that it's important to have a nurse who blames and judges you for being obese and diabetic. That makes for excellent patient care apparently.1 -
Dr. Peter Attia expresses it so well in this talk. Compassion does matter. He was judgmental of the obese too... until he developed prediabetes despite being physically fit, active and eating the "right" foods.
https://youtu.be/sjJrXHWLP_M 1 -
queenliz99 wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »Hell big pharma is the reason why insulin shots exist.
NOPE, the man who won the Nobel for isolating insulin, Dr. Banting, gave his patent away for free because he believed this life-saving drug should be available to everyone who needed it. Big Pharma is the reason new (but not necessarily more effective) versions of insulin are constantly created when patents run out so that they can keep the prices as high as possible.
Insulin is an amazing drug for type 1 diabetics. It's the reason two of my immediate family members are still alive today. Insulin, however, is a horrible treatment for type 2 diabetics, and does nothing to cure the root cause of their disease, but instead exacerbates it.
Lantus was #6 in the top 10 most profitable drugs in 2014, grossing 7.28 billion. http://qz.com/349929/best-selling-drugs-in-the-world/
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
That nutrition advice is confusing garbage for good reason.
@psulemon
Searching through the web you can find so many examples of people who stopped T2 diabetes in its tracks by not listening to the stupid ADA, and not listening to their stupid doctor. They simply cut out refined sugar, fruit juice and grains from their diet, limited fruit consumption, and Voila! - no T2 diabetes.
But without funding from Big Pharma, the ADA would be mostly out of business. So they recommend a too-high carb diet, which keeps people or makes people diabetic. It is criminal, and it is a disgrace.
And if you watch cable news, you are inundated with the latest and greatest diabetes drug. And next year there will be another one that reduces blood sugars 1% more than the current one.
Dr. Banting is rolling in his grave.
Totally agree. It's an utter disgrace. The vast majority of people are totally clueless. Even diabetes educators at the hospital know that the ketogenic diet works so much better for T2DM, but their hands are tied and they aren't allowed to teach it. ADA guidelines are taught to protect medicare/medicaid reimbursement.
Hogwash
Get a clue.... and you already mentioned you work for Big Pharma, so... I'm not surprised.
Absolute and utter hogwash.
And what's worse, 100% falsifiable by 5 seconds of googling.
http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/what-can-i-eat/understanding-carbohydrates/
Wow, look at them just telling you to eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication!
That's the kind of BS claims that make me actually angry, because there's just no excuse.
I'm confused, Steven. What exactly is this link suppose to confirm? You're building a strawman by saying "eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication." The point is: that 45-60 g of carbs per meal is arbitrary and unhelpful. T2DM is a dietary disease, and it needs a dietary cure. If these people want to heal their underlying disease and get off medication, they need intensive changes. Changes the ADA is not telling them about.
There is no healing from diabetes.
You sound like a walking popup advertisement "CLICK HERE TO SEE WHAT THE ADA IS NOT TELLING YOU ABOUT! YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT!"
*shrug* Who cares what I sound like? Seriously, there is no healing from diabetes!? Then how do you explain people who've done it? When someone goes from using exogenous insulin everyday to control blood sugar to no need for the medication while still controlling blood sugar: I call that healing! Smh. I guess the only option is medication for the rest of their lives then.
If you still have it and it's just not acting up THAT'S NOT HEALING.
Ok, whatever you want to call it or however you want to define it. It's possible, it happens, it's a real thing XD
It's remission
OK, then, remission is it. Why are we quibbling over terminology? The point is: if you want to cure your T2DM or put your T2DM "in remission," the ADA guidelines are not very helpful.
No quibbling here but do you know the difference between remission and healing? I think not.
Uh, since when does the difference even matter? It would be specific to the disease process and the individual. What practical difference does your terminology make?
You are a nurse?
ETA: I ask only because I would hope expect that any nurse treating a loved one of mine would know the difference between remission and "cured" and use the correct terminology, since there is a big difference.
Yes, these are the things that matter.
Amongst other things, darn tootin'!
Yes, of course, and I've also learned here that it's important to have a nurse who blames and judges you for being obese and diabetic. That makes for excellent patient care apparently.
You're reading things that no one said, but if that's how you see things-- as long as they are giving proper medical attention and keeping their opinions to themselves, nothing else matters. And if you are an empathetic nurse who doesn't judge or blame, kudos! But please don't tell someone they are healed when what you actually mean to say is that their disease is under control or in remission.
I have a question for you that I hope you will answer. What would Dr. Fung's treatment (or your ideal method of treatment, whichever you prefer to answer) for type 2 diabetes look like for a person already taking insulin?
Edit since you posted the video: You are the one who introduced the idea of doctors and nurses judging obese people, and now you're referring back to that as if that were a position you need to defend. What does that have to do with the OP, or with anything in this thread? Start a new thread if you want to discuss it.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »NotSoPerfectPam wrote: »New York Times story details that a study of Biggest Loser contestants found they regained much of the weight they lost and ruined their metabolism -- all had metabolisms that burned much less than a person their weight should have been burning.
So, OK, it is CICO, but if you're overweight and trying to lose weight, it may mean that your calories in is a lot lower than your calculated BMR or TDEE. So the question is, how do we get our BMR really tested....
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html
This study debunks the popular myth that metabolism isn't slowed by dieting.
For people who ate an aggressively low number of calories while doing an aggressively high amount of exercise for an extended period of time, yes. Not the conditions the average person diets under.
My body fights to put back weight and I have never eaten aggressively lower than 1200 calories while exercising for an extended time. I'm happy you don't experience this. I struggle to lose pounds and my body seriously wants to put them back as soon as I go back to maintenance mode. It is a battle! Now I actively diet just to stay at maintenance weight, so I feel like I am always dieting. My Body Used To Work INTUITUVELY to maintain. Now I must force it to maintain at my new and lower weight.
This is interesting, and I'm curious what precisely you mean. When you say your body "fights" do you mean you are hungry? Or just that you easily regain when not watching calories? That you think you gain on fewer calories than you should (so that you have had metabolic adaptation)? Have you done the math to see if your TDEE has changed beyond what would be expected over time?
I used to be able to maintain at an acceptable weight without thinking about it at all, and now I cannot, but I don't think the reason is physical. I think it has to do with activity and environment. (And when I'm active and mindful I tend to be able to maintain okay, although if I let one or the other drop I can put back on weight quite easily.)
We have such different experiences that I realize I couldn't possibly explain this sufficiently to satisfy you.
How much weight do you put back on when you transition to maintenance because a few lbs is going to be common. With an increase is calories, you generally also have an increase in carbs (more glycogen), may have more sodium (more water) and greater volume (more waste).
If you were doing 1200 calories and exercise for a good period of time, you could possible have suppressed your resting metabolic rate and lowered your projected or average TDEE. This is one reason to slowly increase calories when going to maintenance.
4 pounds0 -
I gain and lose the same 4 pounds. Ugh0
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I agree but I'm worried about my metabolism lowering if I keep compensating down lower still.0 -
I agree but I'm worried about my metabolism lowering if I keep compensating down lower still.
As you become more lean you are supposed to lower your deficit to ensure nutritional availability. Add in a good resistance routine and adequate protein levels will help support metabolic functions. And while there is some adaptive thermogenesis, its nothing like the biggest loser who exercised for 7 hours a day and barely ate.1 -
Also to add, even if your BMR does go down, it wont but a lot and its only part of the equation. You can easily account for the loss in BMR through other aspects of the energy balance equation, whether it is through increased daily activity or increase calories burned during exercise. I know i have. I am 50 lbs lighter now than i was when i started and i still have a tdee of 3000 calories.1
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Also to add, even if your BMR does go down, it wont but a lot and its only part of the equation. You can easily account for the loss in BMR through other aspects of the energy balance equation, whether it is through increased daily activity or increase calories burned during exercise. I know i have. I am 50 lbs lighter now than i was when i started and i still have a tdee of 3000 calories.
Thanks for the encouragement. That is great news and makes sense. A tdee of 3000 calories is amazing. That would be above my wildest dreams. Congrats on losing 50 pounds. You must feel fabulous.1 -
Also to add, even if your BMR does go down, it wont but a lot and its only part of the equation. You can easily account for the loss in BMR through other aspects of the energy balance equation, whether it is through increased daily activity or increase calories burned during exercise. I know i have. I am 50 lbs lighter now than i was when i started and i still have a tdee of 3000 calories.
Thanks for the encouragement. That is great news and makes sense. A tdee of 3000 calories is amazing. That would be above my wildest dreams. Congrats on losing 50 pounds. You must feel fabulous.
Thanks. I do feel good. For the TDEE, it helps that I am a male and have a good amount of muscle. Now if I could only get into single digit body fat, I would be super stoked.0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »Hell big pharma is the reason why insulin shots exist.
NOPE, the man who won the Nobel for isolating insulin, Dr. Banting, gave his patent away for free because he believed this life-saving drug should be available to everyone who needed it. Big Pharma is the reason new (but not necessarily more effective) versions of insulin are constantly created when patents run out so that they can keep the prices as high as possible.
Insulin is an amazing drug for type 1 diabetics. It's the reason two of my immediate family members are still alive today. Insulin, however, is a horrible treatment for type 2 diabetics, and does nothing to cure the root cause of their disease, but instead exacerbates it.
Lantus was #6 in the top 10 most profitable drugs in 2014, grossing 7.28 billion. http://qz.com/349929/best-selling-drugs-in-the-world/
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
That nutrition advice is confusing garbage for good reason.
@psulemon
Searching through the web you can find so many examples of people who stopped T2 diabetes in its tracks by not listening to the stupid ADA, and not listening to their stupid doctor. They simply cut out refined sugar, fruit juice and grains from their diet, limited fruit consumption, and Voila! - no T2 diabetes.
But without funding from Big Pharma, the ADA would be mostly out of business. So they recommend a too-high carb diet, which keeps people or makes people diabetic. It is criminal, and it is a disgrace.
And if you watch cable news, you are inundated with the latest and greatest diabetes drug. And next year there will be another one that reduces blood sugars 1% more than the current one.
Dr. Banting is rolling in his grave.
Totally agree. It's an utter disgrace. The vast majority of people are totally clueless. Even diabetes educators at the hospital know that the ketogenic diet works so much better for T2DM, but their hands are tied and they aren't allowed to teach it. ADA guidelines are taught to protect medicare/medicaid reimbursement.
Hogwash
Get a clue.... and you already mentioned you work for Big Pharma, so... I'm not surprised.
Absolute and utter hogwash.
And what's worse, 100% falsifiable by 5 seconds of googling.
http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/what-can-i-eat/understanding-carbohydrates/
Wow, look at them just telling you to eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication!
That's the kind of BS claims that make me actually angry, because there's just no excuse.
I'm confused, Steven. What exactly is this link suppose to confirm? You're building a strawman by saying "eat all the sugar and carbs and just shoot up on more medication." The point is: that 45-60 g of carbs per meal is arbitrary and unhelpful. T2DM is a dietary disease, and it needs a dietary cure. If these people want to heal their underlying disease and get off medication, they need intensive changes. Changes the ADA is not telling them about.
There is no healing from diabetes.
You sound like a walking popup advertisement "CLICK HERE TO SEE WHAT THE ADA IS NOT TELLING YOU ABOUT! YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT!"
*shrug* Who cares what I sound like? Seriously, there is no healing from diabetes!? Then how do you explain people who've done it? When someone goes from using exogenous insulin everyday to control blood sugar to no need for the medication while still controlling blood sugar: I call that healing! Smh. I guess the only option is medication for the rest of their lives then.
If you still have it and it's just not acting up THAT'S NOT HEALING.
Ok, whatever you want to call it or however you want to define it. It's possible, it happens, it's a real thing XD
It's remission
OK, then, remission is it. Why are we quibbling over terminology? The point is: if you want to cure your T2DM or put your T2DM "in remission," the ADA guidelines are not very helpful.
No quibbling here but do you know the difference between remission and healing? I think not.
Uh, since when does the difference even matter? It would be specific to the disease process and the individual. What practical difference does your terminology make?
You are a nurse?
ETA: I ask only because I would hope expect that any nurse treating a loved one of mine would know the difference between remission and "cured" and use the correct terminology, since there is a big difference.
Yes, these are the things that matter.
Amongst other things, darn tootin'!
Yes, of course, and I've also learned here that it's important to have a nurse who blames and judges you for being obese and diabetic. That makes for excellent patient care apparently.
You're reading things that no one said, but if that's how you see things-- as long as they are giving proper medical attention and keeping their opinions to themselves, nothing else matters. And if you are an empathetic nurse who doesn't judge or blame, kudos! But please don't tell someone they are healed when what you actually mean to say is that their disease is under control or in remission.
I have a question for you that I hope you will answer. What would Dr. Fung's treatment (or your ideal method of treatment, whichever you prefer to answer) for type 2 diabetes look like for a person already taking insulin?
Edit since you posted the video: You are the one who introduced the idea of doctors and nurses judging obese people, and now you're referring back to that as if that were a position you need to defend. What does that have to do with the OP, or with anything in this thread? Start a new thread if you want to discuss it.
Judgement is directly related the the thread. The biggest loses failed. Who's to blame? Them, for failing? Or the crappy advice they followed?
As far as someone already on insulin, from what I understand the care is highly individualized. Fasting is completely safe for those not on blood glucose lowering medication. For those on it, especially higher doses, they would need medical supervision. It would likely involve careful monitoring of blood glucose and adjusting dosages, maybe using a sliding scales for intermittent coverage. It's amazing how quickly blood sugar normalizes when there's nothing in the diet to spike it. These people typically get off their meds very quickly (strangely--not really--while still obese!). Of course, that doesn't mean insulin resistance is healed. That takes longer.0 -
One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.4
-
One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.0 -
One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.
It also gives you an opportunity to gain some muscle while cutting.
And everything is linked to cancer, especially genetics.6 -
One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.
Wrong again.
You're conflating insulin with IGF-1
3 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.
Wrong again.
You're conflating insulin with IGF-1
NOPE, they both are. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/155628340 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.
Wrong again.
You're conflating insulin with IGF-1
NOPE, they both are. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562834
I found this interesting
"low physical activity, and high dietary intake, animal protein, saturated fats and rapidly digestible carbohydrates--is associated with increased risks of many cancers4 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.
Wrong again.
You're conflating insulin with IGF-1
NOPE, they both are. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562834
Anything more concrete than a discussion paper from a pharmaceutical symposium? Or is this the best you could come up with after learning that insulin isn't a "growth factor", but rather that IGF 1 is a different hormone.
0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.
Wrong again.
You're conflating insulin with IGF-1
NOPE, they both are. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562834
Anything more concrete than a discussion paper from a pharmaceutical symposium? Or is this the best you could come up with after learning that insulin isn't a "growth factor", but rather that IGF 1 is a different hormone.
@FunkyTobias
Insulin promotes cell proliferation and growth. Insulin is a growth factor. Hyperinsulinemia is linked to cancer. Use of insulin injections also increases cancer risk. This is fairly common knowledge. Sorry you're confused about it.
http://m.erc.endocrinology-journals.org/content/16/2/429.full
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021594
http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/36/2/319.full.pdf
Yes, it stimulates protein synthesis in many tissues, not just muscle.
This probably also explains why fasting is associated with a reduced risk of cancers and many other degenerative diseases. As the insulin levels drop, the body is able breakdown protein instead of synthesize it, allowing it to degrade and recycle cellular components through autophagy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.
Wrong again.
You're conflating insulin with IGF-1
NOPE, they both are. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562834
I found this interesting
"low physical activity, and high dietary intake, animal protein, saturated fats and rapidly digestible carbohydrates--is associated with increased risks of many cancers
Try the whole quote:
A Western lifestyle--characterized by low physical activity, and high dietary intake, animal protein, saturated fats and rapidly digestible carbohydrates--is associated with increased risks of many cancers.1 -
Rapidly digestibles carbohydrates.... That's another way of saying carbs, isn't it? Carbs digest faster than fats and protein... I believe.FunkyTobias wrote: »One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.
Wrong again.
You're conflating insulin with IGF-1
NOPE, they both are. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562834
I found this interesting
"low physical activity, and high dietary intake, animal protein, saturated fats and rapidly digestible carbohydrates--is associated with increased risks of many cancers
Try the whole quote:
A Western lifestyle--characterized by low physical activity, and high dietary intake, animal protein, saturated fats and rapidly digestible carbohydrates--is associated with increased risks of many cancers.
The quote isn't great. Basically food and low activity levels are associated with cancer.
But that's all off topic. My bad.
1 -
Rapidly digestibles carbohydrates.... That's another way of saying carbs, isn't it? Carbs digest faster than fats and protein... I believe.FunkyTobias wrote: »One interesting thing to note about insulin... it promotes muscle protein synthesis. It's only of the reasons you want some carbs in your system after a workout so when the amino acids are broken down, they can be utilized to rebuild muscle mass. Another interesting thing, some non natty body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS (which is typically 36-48 hours), as a means to increase muscle mass.
Yup, insulin is a growth factor. Also explains why high levels are linked to cancer.
Wrong again.
You're conflating insulin with IGF-1
NOPE, they both are. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562834
I found this interesting
"low physical activity, and high dietary intake, animal protein, saturated fats and rapidly digestible carbohydrates--is associated with increased risks of many cancers
Try the whole quote:
A Western lifestyle--characterized by low physical activity, and high dietary intake, animal protein, saturated fats and rapidly digestible carbohydrates--is associated with increased risks of many cancers.
The quote isn't great. Basically food and low activity levels are associated with cancer.
But that's all off topic. My bad.
Actually, language like that typically refers to simple carbs instead of complex carbs. It's not specifically carbs, but typically not whole grain.1
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