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Alcohol and Society
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Getting back to society, the thing I notice most about society's views on alcohol is that more people who don't drink think everyone should not drink, than people who drink think everyone should drink. And a lot of those that think no one should drink seem to think themselves superior in some way to those that drink.
Those are of course grand generalizations and not always true, but IDK how to talk about "society" without generalizations. But it seems true more often than not to me.
I think this is true with all of societal issues...sex, drugs, alcohol, etc. Socrates defined this best - that there are extremes on both ends and the "best" is found somewhere in the middle...for all issues. When we have problems it is always the extremists on both ends who create the problems while those in the middle (the moderates) are left to sort it out.4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Getting back to society, the thing I notice most about society's views on alcohol is that more people who don't drink think everyone should not drink, than people who drink think everyone should drink. And a lot of those that think no one should drink seem to think themselves superior in some way to those that drink.
Those are of course grand generalizations and not always true, but IDK how to talk about "society" without generalizations. But it seems true more often than not to me.
There's an old saying 'misery loves company'. I guess if you're going to abstain from pleasurable activities it makes it easier if everyone else abstains from them too? And proselytizing increases an abstainers sense of moral superiority (which I guess is a rush/drug in its own way...)4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Getting back to society, the thing I notice most about society's views on alcohol is that more people who don't drink think everyone should not drink, than people who drink think everyone should drink. And a lot of those that think no one should drink seem to think themselves superior in some way to those that drink.
Those are of course grand generalizations and not always true, but IDK how to talk about "society" without generalizations. But it seems true more often than not to me.
I think this is true with all of societal issues...sex, drugs, alcohol, etc. Socrates defined this best - that there are extremes on both ends and the "best" is found somewhere in the middle...for all issues. When we have problems it is always the extremists on both ends who create the problems while those in the middle (the moderates) are left to sort it out.
I agree with this. But, some people have good reason why they personally don't drink. And doesn't mean they apply it to everyone. You just never hear from them. I just think it's weird to judge a person only based on whether they drink or not (in general, not saying anyone is). My husband doesn't drink. He never says it to anyone (I am the one saying it about him). He doesn't ever want attention drawn to it or to explain it. And he doesn't. Sometimes he has awkward moments when people try to get him to have a drink. He just says no. And he tries to have a coke in his hand when he knows there is going to be a toast. I'm only mentioning this because it's in the context of an online discussion. But, I would never write it on a profile, or say it in any real life context. But, maybe I shouldn't even mention it in a discussion either. So, it's not a person's personal choices that are extreme. It's a mental attitude. And the extreme people are vocal. I'm kind of not even sure how I ended up getting involved in this conversation in the first place. It's not a conversation I would ever have in real life.
I think social events would be boring if everyone was forced not to drink. It's a personal choice. When each person does what they personally enjoy then everyone is having fun their way, together. But, I know I keep saying the same thing.3 -
I think hangovers are a pretty bizarre phenomenon also. I'm sitting here trying to think of an analogy and I can't. This one time not in band camp I put so much butter on my homemade popcorn that I woke up in the middle of the night to vomit. Never again did I put that much better on my popcorn. Rationally speaking a person should have one hangover and then not repeat that. Yet speaking for myself I spent the last 15 plus years hung over more often than not. Think about what would happen if you woke up in the morning with all the symptoms of a really bad hangover but you hadn't drank the night before. You would probably go to the hospital. Another interesting observation: everyone has woken up at some point and said I wish I didn't drink so much last night. No one has ever woken up and said I wish I drank more last night.
Again no judgments here. Just observations. Today is 97 days sober for me. My life is actually beginning to come together for the first time. An important part of my therapy is to de-romanticize my drug of choice. For an interesting book on alcohol and Society I strongly recommend "This naked mind."
ETA: I noticed a few people up thread expressing that they feel offended by someone else's post. I can somewhat relate to that. Let's just say I'm slightly miffed by the characterization of teetotalers as boring stuffy lame miserable at cetera. For me this is a life-or-death issue. I put myself in the hospital twice and ruined countless relationships. So I'm going to choose to stay alive even if it does God forbid make me boring.15 -
ooohh yes, the hangover is a big motivator not to overdo it..
This probably doesn't apply to any of you, but lets not forget the cooked brain. A family friend of ours used to be so bright and funny, but now at the age of 60 her brain is well and truly pickled
She drank heavily nearly everyday of her adult life and now she's paying the price. She has apparently been diagnosed with alcohol induced dementia. 0 -
@zamphir66 Good for you getting sober! And reflecting on it. You won't be boring!!! I think they mean that they know teetotalers that are a certain way. Not that all are that way. I was also thinking about the advertising. And how we can use it as one of many opportunities to teach our kids about the advertisement industry. Not that there is anything wrong with it's existence. It's an important aspect of consumerism. But, to teach them to understand the glitz of it all and to make informed decisions not easily swayed by advertisement. On the hangover issue I understand. And goes hand in hand with the life or death issue. The ability to ignore the damage. I have a family member that is told she is going to die if she doesn't stop drinking. She has multiple internal organ damage. That's very hard to watch a loved one self destruct like that at a young age.
@Christine_72 My grandfather has cirrhosis of the liver and alcohol induced dementia. He was a good guy. But, he had a lot of pain in his life. When he turned to alcohol for more than just a social fun time, he became difficult. So, even though the dementia is challenging, I think life has become better because he is kinder now and less mean and hurtful.0 -
I either don't get hangovers or if I do its not the worst thing that can happen to me
I take hangovers as a disciplinary lesson and I don't go out of my way to avoid them, but also I'm not one to get them often either
Keep in mind, I tend to drink copious amounts with the right oppurtunity2 -
If we're going to whine about our feelings being hurt, I'll be over here with the cheese tray.
As to scientific research linking aggressive behavior to alcohol, the evidence is legion. I'm on a phone so I'm not going to do your work for you, but a trip to scholar.google.com and the search term for "alcohol consumption and aggression" should seriously keep anyone interested in that field busy for weeks. They're trying to establish specific genes that are predictive for the most dramatic effects. The scientists aren't arguing about if it happens or what the magnitude is, they're looking at the biochemical mechanisms now.6 -
I wonder if anyone feels the same way I do about just how ingrained alcohol is in our culture. I.E., slightly disturbed.
Now I'm not advocating for some kind of neo-prohibitionist movement. But it is profoundly curious how smoking has become, for the most part, socially censured -- while alcohol, which can be so much more immediately harmful -- is celebrated. I don't think it would be a bad thing to trim back on booze advertising the same way as we've done with tobacco.
Consider: by several measures, alcohol rates as the most harmful drug. Here's one of several sources on that -- http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
Also consider: the top decile (10%) of drinkers consumes 73 standard drinks a week. Source -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/think-you-drink-a-lot-this-chart-will-tell-you/
Many probably drink even more than that, as alcoholics are notorious for under-reporting intake. The real important point of that data, in my mind, is that alcohol's entire modern business structure is supported by the top 10-15% of drinkers. (In business, this is called the Paretto Principle.) We have mega-brewers and multinational brands and are saturated in advertising because of the people who drink way too much by any objective measure. To put it another way: when you go out for drinks with friends, the reason you have so many options of where to go and what to drink is because 1 in 10 of your fellow citizens is quite literally killing themselves, and their consumption props up the whole business.
I think many of us go through lots of mental gymnastics to justify consuming something that actually is bad for you. This isn't sugar, or candy bars, or lattes we're talking about. And before anyone chimes in with the health benefits: My understanding is that any benefits have been grossly exaggerated, while downsides have been underplayed. IIRC, the specific compounds in red wine that are supposed to be 'heart healthy' can just as easily be gotten from grape juice.
So what's the debate? I guess it's this:
Do you there's nothing wrong with how our society looks at alcohol? A little bit wrong? Or a lot wrong?
Having 5 uncles that died prematurely or suffered greatly from alcohol abuse along with their families I was lucky that my father quit alcohol at the age of 16 and quit smoking at the age of 22 so I was never around it and yet knew the down side. After I realized I had abused non alcohol carbs for 40 years then I better understood my uncles. Getting drunk then fighting was my family tradition I learned from strangers that did know my family 50-75 years ago.
Our county is still "dry" but they sell alcohol at Walmart in town. I am not sure the per capital use of alcohol is that much lower in the USA than years ago. When I attend trade shows and other social events I see a lot of people out of it from drinking alcohol.
Due to my physical limitations from arthritis walking is already harder than for most and I really do not need to add alcohol on top of my current limitations. With that being said I am not going to work against the rights of others to buy beer at WM, etc. I think it is silly that WM has to cover it with a trap at midnight Sat until midnight Sun. Some of the churches fought on both sides of the wet/dry voting.
I know people that drink alcohol that have not hurt their health the way that I did abusing non alcoholic carbs.
Abuse is abuse and addiction is addiction regardless of what one is consuming out of control.
Some people can play with fire and cook a nice meal and some only wind up burning down the house so to speak.
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They haven't started selling alcohol in stores or supermarkets here... yet. It was brought up last year, but our government shot it down quick smart!0
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I always found alcohol in society to be a very interesting topic.
I spent a good portion of my 4 years in undergrad drinking. It was a way of coping with stress (the school I went to has a Urban Dictionary definition comparing the graduates to rabid parrots....whoever wrote that has been to that school).
I got out into the real world and ended up on a traveling crew spending much of my first 5 years of my career overseas. I thought alcohol was important in college. When I started traveling, alcohol was the force that bound our universe together. We'd drink together to celebrate the happy events one of our coworkers had to miss because they were in some foreign land with us. We'd drink to drown the sorrows of a cheating SO or the inevitable divorce of one of our coworkers. We'd drink because the customer wanted to go drink. We'd drink because we were lonely. We'd drink to welcome the new people to the project. We'd drink because the hotel had free happy hour and had to take advantage of it!
When we'd come back to the states and would have a large company meeting, there was alcohol served. After 5 years, I was a drunk. I'd call myself an alcoholic, but I was too stupid to seek help when I needed it. Through the strength my wife gave me and the grace of God, I stopped drinking on my own. For about 5 years, I'd be surprised if I drank a 6 pack.
When I quit the traveling life and became an outsider looking in, I was shocked how our world revolved around alcohol. Then I look at society and the life we lived wasn't a strange phenomenon, it was the norm. When society celebrates such as a wedding, we celebrate with alcohol (when I go to a wedding without alcohol, it feels strange). When friends gather socially, often alcohol is a part. When guys get together to watch a football game, it is beer and nachos at a friends house or you meet at a bar. I could go on and on.
So is this a problem?
It wasn't until I had my "sober period" in life when I finally gained control of alcohol rather than alcohol was controlling me that I realized that it was an issue. I've known alcoholics and I flirted heavily with alcoholism myself. There are people who can't have alcohol and being around it is a temptation that those people should not have to bear. The fact that these people have to bear the burden of sobriety in a situation where societies norm is to have alcohol is an issue.
I wish I would have realized that fact when I was younger and I wish I had been more respectful to those who could not or did not want to drink.9 -
I think hangovers are a pretty bizarre phenomenon also. I'm sitting here trying to think of an analogy and I can't. This one time not in band camp I put so much butter on my homemade popcorn that I woke up in the middle of the night to vomit. Never again did I put that much better on my popcorn. Rationally speaking a person should have one hangover and then not repeat that. Yet speaking for myself I spent the last 15 plus years hung over more often than not. Think about what would happen if you woke up in the morning with all the symptoms of a really bad hangover but you hadn't drank the night before. You would probably go to the hospital. Another interesting observation: everyone has woken up at some point and said I wish I didn't drink so much last night. No one has ever woken up and said I wish I drank more last night.
Again no judgments here. Just observations. Today is 97 days sober for me. My life is actually beginning to come together for the first time. An important part of my therapy is to de-romanticize my drug of choice. For an interesting book on alcohol and Society I strongly recommend "This naked mind."
ETA: I noticed a few people up thread expressing that they feel offended by someone else's post. I can somewhat relate to that. Let's just say I'm slightly miffed by the characterization of teetotalers as boring stuffy lame miserable at cetera. For me this is a life-or-death issue. I put myself in the hospital twice and ruined countless relationships. So I'm going to choose to stay alive even if it does God forbid make me boring.
Not everyone gets hangovers. *shrug*0 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »Not everyone gets hangovers. *shrug*
Of course not everyone gets hangovers. I didn't say that. If you drink, and don't get hangovers, you're doing things well.
I'm just saying it's kind of hard to grok getting them habitually and rationalizing them, or even wearing them as a badge of honor. This coming from someone who did precisely that.
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Chef_Barbell wrote: »Not everyone gets hangovers. *shrug*
Of course not everyone gets hangovers. I didn't say that. If you drink, and don't get hangovers, you're doing things well.
I'm just saying it's kind of hard to grok getting them habitually and rationalizing them, or even wearing them as a badge of honor. This coming from someone who did precisely that.
Ahhh I understand now. Yes that makes sense.1 -
I no longer get hangovers, but that's because I shut down before I drink that much, and I make a point of eating well beforehand. I'll be honest and say I've had a few doozies in my life, usually caused by not eating enough before having a drink or two. With age came wisdom.3
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JustMissTracy wrote: »I no longer get hangovers, but that's because I shut down before I drink that much, and I make a point of eating well beforehand. I'll be honest and say I've had a few doozies in my life, usually caused by not eating enough before having a drink or two. With age came wisdom.
So much me here too lol... I also drink water with each alcoholic beverage.3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I wonder if anyone feels the same way I do about just how ingrained alcohol is in our culture. I.E., slightly disturbed.
Now I'm not advocating for some kind of neo-prohibitionist movement. But it is profoundly curious how smoking has become, for the most part, socially censured -- while alcohol, which can be so much more immediately harmful -- is celebrated. I don't think it would be a bad thing to trim back on booze advertising the same way as we've done with tobacco.
Consider: by several measures, alcohol rates as the most harmful drug. Here's one of several sources on that -- http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
Also consider: the top decile (10%) of drinkers consumes 73 standard drinks a week. Source -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/think-you-drink-a-lot-this-chart-will-tell-you/
Many probably drink even more than that, as alcoholics are notorious for under-reporting intake. The real important point of that data, in my mind, is that alcohol's entire modern business structure is supported by the top 10-15% of drinkers. (In business, this is called the Paretto Principle.) We have mega-brewers and multinational brands and are saturated in advertising because of the people who drink way too much by any objective measure. To put it another way: when you go out for drinks with friends, the reason you have so many options of where to go and what to drink is because 1 in 10 of your fellow citizens is quite literally killing themselves, and their consumption props up the whole business.
I think many of us go through lots of mental gymnastics to justify consuming something that actually is bad for you. This isn't sugar, or candy bars, or lattes we're talking about. And before anyone chimes in with the health benefits: My understanding is that any benefits have been grossly exaggerated, while downsides have been underplayed. IIRC, the specific compounds in red wine that are supposed to be 'heart healthy' can just as easily be gotten from grape juice.
So what's the debate? I guess it's this:
Do you there's nothing wrong with how our society looks at alcohol? A little bit wrong? Or a lot wrong?
Having 5 uncles that died prematurely or suffered greatly from alcohol abuse along with their families I was lucky that my father quit alcohol at the age of 16 and quit smoking at the age of 22 so I was never around it and yet knew the down side. After I realized I had abused non alcohol carbs for 40 years then I better understood my uncles. Getting drunk then fighting was my family tradition I learned from strangers that did know my family 50-75 years ago.
Our county is still "dry" but they sell alcohol at Walmart in town. I am not sure the per capital use of alcohol is that much lower in the USA than years ago. When I attend trade shows and other social events I see a lot of people out of it from drinking alcohol.
Due to my physical limitations from arthritis walking is already harder than for most and I really do not need to add alcohol on top of my current limitations. With that being said I am not going to work against the rights of others to buy beer at WM, etc. I think it is silly that WM has to cover it with a trap at midnight Sat until midnight Sun. Some of the churches fought on both sides of the wet/dry voting.
I know people that drink alcohol that have not hurt their health the way that I did abusing non alcoholic carbs.
Abuse is abuse and addiction is addiction regardless of what one is consuming out of control.
Some people can play with fire and cook a nice meal and some only wind up burning down the house so to speak.
What do carbs have to do with any of this?
And to use your own analogy, you only learn how to cook a meal by not sitting in a corner afraid of burning down your house.12 -
Just chiming in here..
As a 23 year old, fresh out of college (well, almost a year and a half out), I've noticed this intense obsession with alcohol. Back in college I would drink every day, down a growler at a party, etc. I would go out to the bars whenever anyone wanted to and I had the money, house parties were common, that sort of thing. It was all about getting wasted and being social while you did it.
I've noticed that that culture is continuing around me, post-grad. My friends that still live in the college town spend just about every night drinking, it's all about drinking games and wine and doing stuff while drinking. My roommate who just moved out of his parent's house for the first time post-grad was surprised that my s/o and I didn't want to go to the bars on a Friday night, or that we didn't always want to have a beer while we did everything. I'll do that on occasion, but it was weird to see a fresh perspective on our culture back then vs what my s/o and I had cultivated as 'our culture' during our year living together in a different city.
When you're able to take a step back from it, alcohol culture is insane. Paint Nites, for instance, are painting.. while getting drunk. There are happy hour specials everywhere. Fun Runs where you run for charity and then drink a lot. It's a lot easier to notice once you've taken a step back and you have to wonder.. why?
I'm not against people drinking by any means. Everyone can do what they want, and I'll do what I want. I'll go have a good night at a bar, I have whiskey and beer in my apartment, but it takes me months to go through a 24 pack because ehhhh. And half of them I end up giving away.
Granted, I get hungover if I even look at alcohol. It doesn't matter what I eat or how much or how much water I drink or what kind of alcohol I had. Two beers and I'm drunk all night and destroyed the next morning.2 -
I think hangovers are a pretty bizarre phenomenon also. I'm sitting here trying to think of an analogy and I can't. This one time not in band camp I put so much butter on my homemade popcorn that I woke up in the middle of the night to vomit. Never again did I put that much better on my popcorn. Rationally speaking a person should have one hangover and then not repeat that. Yet speaking for myself I spent the last 15 plus years hung over more often than not. Think about what would happen if you woke up in the morning with all the symptoms of a really bad hangover but you hadn't drank the night before. You would probably go to the hospital. Another interesting observation: everyone has woken up at some point and said I wish I didn't drink so much last night. No one has ever woken up and said I wish I drank more last night.
Again no judgments here. Just observations. Today is 97 days sober for me. My life is actually beginning to come together for the first time. An important part of my therapy is to de-romanticize my drug of choice. For an interesting book on alcohol and Society I strongly recommend "This naked mind."
ETA: I noticed a few people up thread expressing that they feel offended by someone else's post. I can somewhat relate to that. Let's just say I'm slightly miffed by the characterization of teetotalers as boring stuffy lame miserable at cetera. For me this is a life-or-death issue. I put myself in the hospital twice and ruined countless relationships. So I'm going to choose to stay alive even if it does God forbid make me boring.
People suffer adverse affects from pleasurable activities but continue them all the time. It's not limited to alcohol. Sex would be a good example.3 -
I always found alcohol in society to be a very interesting topic.
I spent a good portion of my 4 years in undergrad drinking. It was a way of coping with stress (the school I went to has a Urban Dictionary definition comparing the graduates to rabid parrots....whoever wrote that has been to that school).
I got out into the real world and ended up on a traveling crew spending much of my first 5 years of my career overseas. I thought alcohol was important in college. When I started traveling, alcohol was the force that bound our universe together. We'd drink together to celebrate the happy events one of our coworkers had to miss because they were in some foreign land with us. We'd drink to drown the sorrows of a cheating SO or the inevitable divorce of one of our coworkers. We'd drink because the customer wanted to go drink. We'd drink because we were lonely. We'd drink to welcome the new people to the project. We'd drink because the hotel had free happy hour and had to take advantage of it!
When we'd come back to the states and would have a large company meeting, there was alcohol served. After 5 years, I was a drunk. I'd call myself an alcoholic, but I was too stupid to seek help when I needed it. Through the strength my wife gave me and the grace of God, I stopped drinking on my own. For about 5 years, I'd be surprised if I drank a 6 pack.
When I quit the traveling life and became an outsider looking in, I was shocked how our world revolved around alcohol. Then I look at society and the life we lived wasn't a strange phenomenon, it was the norm. When society celebrates such as a wedding, we celebrate with alcohol (when I go to a wedding without alcohol, it feels strange). When friends gather socially, often alcohol is a part. When guys get together to watch a football game, it is beer and nachos at a friends house or you meet at a bar. I could go on and on.
So is this a problem?
It wasn't until I had my "sober period" in life when I finally gained control of alcohol rather than alcohol was controlling me that I realized that it was an issue. I've known alcoholics and I flirted heavily with alcoholism myself. There are people who can't have alcohol and being around it is a temptation that those people should not have to bear. The fact that these people have to bear the burden of sobriety in a situation where societies norm is to have alcohol is an issue.
I wish I would have realized that fact when I was younger and I wish I had been more respectful to those who could not or did not want to drink.
I imagine it can be hard for someone that would like to drink but can't or shouldn't at social functions. But is it any harder than it is for someone that can't or shouldn't eat certain foods at a social function where they are served? Is it harder than it is for someone that would like to dance but can't for medical reasons? Or other similar circumstances.
It seems unrealistic to expect a bride and groom to forgo the champagne toast because Uncle Joe is a recovering alcoholic, or Aunt Jo to not bring her famous peanut butter pie to the family reunions because cousin Stew has a peanut allergy.5
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