March 2018 Running Challenge

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  • kevaasen
    kevaasen Posts: 173 Member
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    lporter229 wrote: »
    @Katharmonic- That's an interesting article. Thanks for sharing. I have been thinking a good bit about this subject lately because of my aforementioned proneness to injury when running at faster speeds. I have a naturally high cadence even at slower speeds, so when I run faster, I think most of my gains in speed come more from an increase in stride length rather than cadence. Although I am not really sure what the typical increase would look like, I feel like there is not a significant increase in my cadence vs. pace compared with what I would expect. For example, my last three runs were:

    Easy 6 miles- 8:57 avg.pace, 197 spm avg. cadence
    15K race-7:39 avg. pace, 201 spm avg. cadence
    5K race-7:04 avg pace, 205 spm avg. cadence

    To me, that does not seem like a lot of difference in cadence, which might explain why I am more prone to injury from running faster (over-striding). If anyone doesn't mind sharing their data, I would be curious to see how others' changes in cadence vary with speed. At any rate, I am not sure that there is much that I can do at this point to change that. Given most of what I read, I don't think there is a whole lot of room for improving my cadence and I am somewhat limited in stride length by virtue of being a shortie. Maybe I just need to keep working on stretching my legs to keep my muscles more pliable and capable of adsorbing the impact of a longer stride? IDK, any thoughts?

    I am no expert in any of this, but I agree it doesn't seem like you could do anything to your cadence as it is already at a consistent rate regardless of your speed. If I do simple math, your race pace total per mile is ~1435 steps (7x205) vs an easy pace ~1773 (9x197) so your normal running stride is ~3 feet on an easy pace (1773*3) is basically a mile, so the delta is your stride increases up to ~3.7 ft for a 5k race, slightly less for the 15K, etc.

    For me, I am the opposite, my stride is effectively the same (slightly longer on race day, but not significantly more) however, my spm cadence during a race (i.e. 10K/15k's) is ~180 and on normal/longer runs in the high 160's/low 170's and unlikely to drop below 160 if I go really easy/slow. I'm taller (6'2"), so while I likely could benefit with a longer/better stride on all runs and/or a faster cadence, I likely would need a bunch of other improvements in flexibility, strength, running form, leg kick, the list goes on to make all of that happen :smiley:

    FYI - we have a similar 15K race pace, however I had 179 spm, and Garmin shows a calculated stride of 1.18m or 3.87ft. On a non race day, I will see strides reported of around 1m.
  • Teresa502
    Teresa502 Posts: 1,723 Member
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    Ouch @MobyCarp!
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    lporter229 wrote: »
    @Katharmonic- That's an interesting article. Thanks for sharing. I have been thinking a good bit about this subject lately because of my aforementioned proneness to injury when running at faster speeds. I have a naturally high cadence even at slower speeds, so when I run faster, I think most of my gains in speed come more from an increase in stride length rather than cadence. Although I am not really sure what the typical increase would look like, I feel like there is not a significant increase in my cadence vs. pace compared with what I would expect. For example, my last three runs were:

    Easy 6 miles- 8:57 avg.pace, 197 spm avg. cadence
    15K race-7:39 avg. pace, 201 spm avg. cadence
    5K race-7:04 avg pace, 205 spm avg. cadence

    To me, that does not seem like a lot of difference in cadence, which might explain why I am more prone to injury from running faster (over-striding). If anyone doesn't mind sharing their data, I would be curious to see how others' changes in cadence vary with speed. At any rate, I am not sure that there is much that I can do at this point to change that. Given most of what I read, I don't think there is a whole lot of room for improving my cadence and I am somewhat limited in stride length by virtue of being a shortie. Maybe I just need to keep working on stretching my legs to keep my muscles more pliable and capable of adsorbing the impact of a longer stride? IDK, any thoughts?
    kevaasen wrote: »
    I am no expert in any of this, but I agree it doesn't seem like you could do anything to your cadence as it is already at a consistent rate regardless of your speed. If I do simple math, your race pace total per mile is ~1435 steps (7x205) vs an easy pace ~1773 (9x197) so your normal running stride is ~3 feet on an easy pace (1773*3) is basically a mile, so the delta is your stride increases up to ~3.7 ft for a 5k race, slightly less for the 15K, etc.

    For me, I am the opposite, my stride is effectively the same (slightly longer on race day, but not significantly more) however, my spm cadence during a race (i.e. 10K/15k's) is ~180 and on normal/longer runs in the high 160's/low 170's and unlikely to drop below 160 if I go really easy/slow. I'm taller (6'2"), so while I likely could benefit with a longer/better stride on all runs and/or a faster cadence, I likely would need a bunch of other improvements in flexibility, strength, running form, leg kick, the list goes on to make all of that happen :smiley:

    FYI - we have a similar 15K race pace, however I had 179 spm, and Garmin shows a calculated stride of 1.18m or 3.87ft. On a non race day, I will see strides reported of around 1m.


    Subject: Over-striding

    Over-striding usually becomes a problem because you end up having your feet land on the ground ahead of your face (as opposed to having them land closer to directly under your chin). It's known as the breaking effect or the heel strike. Don't think in terms of some magical stride length.

    The reason quicker cadence is usually called out for injury prevention is because the concept is, if you try to quicken your cadence, you will shorten your steps, and less likely you will have your feet land out in front of you as your try to run faster. You are also reducing the ground impact forces with a quicker cadence.

    With regards to stride length. if you look at the very end (5:21) of the second video below, the girl in the video is frozen as you see "video by: www.V02maxProductions.com" just posted - (hit pause) if you notice her right leg is in the end of the stance phase (after lift off) and about to go into the swing phase. That foot is high in the air and strengthened backwards (with the knee bent). Also notice that her left leg is still in the swing phase as well and the foot is not going to land way too far in front, but rather more towards under her chin (or center of gravity). The fact that both feet are still in the air simultaneously (known as the float sub-stage) for a very noticeable amount of time is evident of better technique and stronger runners. You want your swing phase to be longer than your stance phase (which equates to your feet being in the air longer - which equates to less energy of having weight bearing on your body). But the main point here that I wanted to show was that better runners lengthen their stride behind them, not in front of them. The power to propel your body forward actually comes from behind you not trying to reach out forward.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkyBr47DdY0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRkeBVMQSgg
  • fitoverfortymom
    fitoverfortymom Posts: 3,452 Member
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    Teresa502 wrote: »
    Ouch @MobyCarp!

    ^^^^^^
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    03/01/18 - Rest
    03/02/18 - 8 miles @ 8:51
    03/03/18 - 9 miles @ 9:29
    03/04/18 - Meetings instead of running
    03/05/18 - 11 miles @ 9:11
    03/06/18 - 11 miles @ 8:59
    03/07/18 - 10 miles @ 9:04
    03/08/18 - Planned rest
    03/09/18 - 7.5mph for 10 Miles @ 4% grade
    03/10/18 - Meetings
    03/11/18 - 20 miles @ 9:51
    03/12/18 - Bah.
    03/13/18 - 7.5 MPH for 7.5 miles at 4% Grade
    03/14/18 - 7.5 MPH for 7.5 miles at 4% Grade
    03/15/18 - 7.5 MPH for 10 miles at 4% Grade
    03/16/18 - Rest
    03/17/18 - Shamrock Shuffle 17.3 miles in total
    03/18/18 - Rest
    03/19/18 - Rest
    03/20/18 - 7 MPH for 7 Miles @ 4.5% grade
    03/21/18 - 7.5 MPH for 7.5 miles @ 4 % grade

    Big Hairy Audacious Goal: Sub 4 hours in Pittsburgh 2018!

    Official Marathon PR: 4:11:28

    Next Races (more as I find them):

    04/07/18 - Achilles 9.3 Challenge (10k and 5k back to back)
    05/06/18 - Pittsburgh Marathon - aiming for sub four hours.
    05/12/18 - Glacier Ridge 50k Trail Ultra (I must hate myself)

    2020 - Disney World Dopey! (if can raise funds)


    Did not have a lot of time, so just a short run on the dreadmill and then meetings ahoy!
  • 7lenny7
    7lenny7 Posts: 3,493 Member
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    Trying to catch up from Saturday...

    Lots of great race reports! Congrats to all... @PastorVincent (way to tough it out!) @cburke8909 @zdyb23456 @sarahthes @polskagirl01 (PW & PR!) @HonuNui @abutcher2122 @noblsheep (cool medal!) @lporter229 ( x 2!! both with stellar finishes! ) @Teresa502 (happy birthday!) Apologies if I missed someone, which I probably did.

    @RunsOnEspresso yep, born and raised in Rochester. Spent some time in LaCrosse, usually going to a concert.

    @noblsheep that conversation is hilarious!

    Scary animals...the scariest animal I've ever come across are feral cattle in northern California while hiking in the Trinity Alps. Open range country and this small band of cattle looked like they hadn't had human contact in some time. They had a crazed, deranged look in their eyes and we gave them wide berth.

    @ddmom0811 I bet that gave your heart quite a jolt! Glad you weren't hit. Our schools dropoff procedure actually goes pretty smooth, but we only have a single lane and everyone waits in line. Usually three vehicles drop off, when they move away three more drive up and take their place.

    @Stoshew71 said:
    Another thing with cramping shoulders is the hunching of your back. Back stays straight and stand tall, hips pressed forward. Not only will this rob energy and make your back sore, but you loose power because you are no longer running with butt power. You are forcing yourself to run with your thighs and hamstrings in inefficient ways which not only makes your run harder, but can cause injury. There is a youtube video about the clam exercise to help running with proper hip motion. Running with butt power means you are using your most power muscles (which are your glutes) when it comes to running. You want to engage them. Not only a straight back and hips forward, but squeeze them glutes together. This sounds weird, but imagine running and trying to keep a quarter pinned between your butt cheeks.

    ^ ^ This, this and more of this!!! My IT band issues came up because I was not engaging my glutes properly. I couldn't figure out why I was able to run so much last year with no problem but this year I got ITBS with less miles. Then it finally dawned on me that last year, @Stoshew71 imparted this same wisdom just in time for me and I worked on it. Head high and in a neutral position, hips thrust forward, and clenching your cheeks. I'm back to doing this again and am improving. Glad to see @Stoshew71 is posting again!



  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    SO TRACKING QUESTION

    Today, as an example, I ran on the big fancy expensive dreadmills at the gym. I set the controls for 7.5 MPH (8 min pace) and random incline with an average of 4% grade. I ran for 61:15 and the dreadmill registered 7.65 miles. I overshot my hour target but that is a secondary point...

    I tracked the run using my Gramin 935 and Garmin footpod. I have run with the footpod many times outside on auto-calibrate. The Garmin claims I ran 7.99 miles (had I known I would have kept going lol) at 7:41 pace for the same 61:15 time.

    So which one is more likely to be correct?

  • NikolaosKey
    NikolaosKey Posts: 410 Member
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    @MobyCarp omg that looks bad. Hope to heal fast
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    @MobyCarp Dude its FEET ON PAVEMENT not FACE. Sheesh. You should know better by now! ;)
  • 7lenny7
    7lenny7 Posts: 3,493 Member
    edited March 2018
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    @katharmonic congrats for getting in to the race! How exciting!

    @zdyb23456 from your description it sounds like you have an awesome running form. high cadence with little vertical travel is ideal. I've read 180 is the target but elites often are 200+ A higher cadence (with the corresponding shorter stride) and lower vertical travel in running is more efficient and less prone to injury because of the reduced impact to your body.

    @lporter229 there is nothing wrong with your cadence at any pace! I've read that height is not an indicator for cadence or stride length. I'm 6' 5" and after my PT recommended getting my cadence up for reducing injury, I was able to go from and average of 158 to 174 in a matter. I've had a few runs of 180 to 182. I had tried before without success but I think coming back from injury gave me greater motivation to actually get my cadence up there.

    @MobyCarp ouch!!! Glad it wasn't' any worse!

    @PastorVincent never measure your distance with more than one device. It introduces uncertainty. Pick one and go with it. In this case, the difference is not enough to matter. You ran what you ran, regardless of what either one said. Truth be told, they are both likely to be inaccurate. I say pick 7.99 because it's a bigger number.

    All caught up!! for now....
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    Someone up thread asked for cadence numbers...

    9:19 pace had an average 179 cadence
    9:52 pace had an average 174 cadence
    8:34 pace had an average 178 cadence

    SO there you go. I never really looked at cadence numbers with any seriousness so do now know if they are trending up down left or right at this stage. :)
  • girlinahat
    girlinahat Posts: 2,956 Member
    edited March 2018
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    So I just got back from watching an inspiring series of films as part of the TrailsinMotion Film Festival. If you get the chance go see it.

    They ranged from five minutes to 20 minutes long, and from fastpacking in Inuit country to Hardrock 100. There was a jungle ultra in Peru (well marked with red ribbons but where was the trail?). And there was Michael Milton. Who holds the Australian downhill speed record at over 130mph, he’s been through cancer twice, did his first marathon in just over five hours and just did a 50k running race in the Blue Mountains of Australia. They changed the route at the last minute so he hadn’t trained on ANY of it, it included ladders up and down, stairs, technical terrain and...... HE ONLY HAS ONE LEG

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