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"Natural foods" vs "others"
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nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »100_PROOF_ wrote: »I found the secret to a zesty Mac and cheese, from a careful reading of the commercial ingredient list. I add dry mustard powder or curry. For that attractive orange colour, a little paprika.
My kids loved cream cheese with beet juice as color. It came out a pinkish red color and it was fun for them.
My poor kids getting hypnotized and drawn in by the fun color of beets. What a terrible mom I was. Lol
No you weren't, because you chose a natural method to add that color. Why didn't you just add in food coloring? According to the thread, there is no benefit in using beet juice instead of red food dye.
Waiting for the argument now that red dye is actually made from insects so it's in fact natural...
I'm only up to here in this fun and fascinating thread, but I just had to post this:
(From two years ago)
http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/08/news/companies/kraft-mac-and-cheese-recipe/index.html
Notice anything different about your mac & cheese lately?
No? Don't worry, nobody else did either.
Kraft Heinz removed artificial preservatives, flavors and dyes from its mac & cheese recipe in December. To keep its yellow-orange glow, Kraft swapped out artificial food colors, including yellow 5 and yellow 6, for natural spices like paprika, annatto and turmeric.
The company is calling it "the world's largest blind taste test."
I didn't because i haven't eaten it since I was 12 and we were broke just-arrived immigrants getting our food from a food bank (in case anyone thinks my 'elitist' views stem from being privileged all my life).
But good for Kraft. And again proves my point. More and more companies are now doing this and increasingly these artificial additives are getting pushed to the sidelines of the market. Because consumers are becoming more aware of the importance of what they are eating and demanding it. Why though? I mean, according to this thread, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with any of this stuff in our food. Why then are companies bothering to remove it?
Yes, customer demand is what's dictating these changes. So it did years ago during the low fat frenzy. It doesn't mean fat is bad in moderation, it only means people tend to be affected by scaremongering because the luxury of making logical informed decisions is recent. We still bounce back to our survival instincts of wanting to make the safest decisions possible, even when the threat isn't real.
Although I do tend to prefer foods I've always eaten, mostly nutritious and prepared at home, and hold a similar opinion to Ann's regarding getting most of my nutrients from evolution tested sources despite not fearing foods that are newer to the market.
ETA: as for limiting kids' choices, I'll throw my own experience into the mix. I grew up on home cooked food and lots of fruits and vegetables because that's just how we ate. Nothing was limited. I got a daily allowance and I was free to spend it on anything I wanted, from candy to chips, to juice, but because it was a limited allowance I couldn't buy enough to overeat them. Occasionally we would have baked sweets and desserts. Although it was a "sometimes food", I wasn't told it was bad or that we don't have them often because they're bad. It was just how we ate. The result: even at my highest weight I didn't overeat sweets and packaged snack foods.
One of the things I have the hardest time moderating is the only thing I was explicitly told to limit. Nuts were expensive so they were reserved for guests, and when we visited someone and they served nuts I was told to only take a small handful. When I grew up and got my first pay, the first thing I did was buy a large amount of nuts and I kept habitually buying them and overeating them until I decided to start dieting. This was also one of the hardest habits to break and the most fragile one to keep "broken", so I keep a tight leash on it.17 -
nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
You're very privileged.
And apparently, you only care as far enough as your pocketbook takes you in some cases, so that speaks to your caring being less of a bone deep conviction and more of a social construct, given how you describe what sounds like an equally privileged social circle.
Interesting.
We are financially comfortable and I definitely don't skimp on food but we also don't stock our fridge with a ton of the most expensive foods. We don't eat large portions in general and we don't eat out often (more for health reasons but still), I do comparison shop and look for sales and good deals as a rule. Some foods we simply mostly avoid because we can't afford to buy them in large quantities (or could, but it wouldn't be a wise use of our budget) - like grass fed beef for instance, so we simply eat very little beef in general, or something like wild-caught local shrimp is very expensive so it's a once-a-year type treat, and other times I buy it rarely and stick to other proteins rather than buy a lot of frozen shrimp, we eat a lot of chicken and some wild salmon and the occasional lamb leg or pork tenderloin.
As I mentioned, I grew up in a family that went through two immigrations, and we came from a country where packaged junk food wasn't even a thing when we left, it was unaccessible for most of the population. Even after coming to Canada however, with very limited finances, my mom continued to feed us mostly healthy homemade meals made with inexpensive whole ingredients. In fact junk food and fast food was considered a rare treat because it was a waste of money on something essentially non-nutritious. I remember eating a lot of baked chicken drumsticks as a kid because boneless skinless breasts were too expensive; ground beef, potatoes, pasta, buckwheat (a cultural thing), etc., soups were a staple, always fresh veggies and seasonal fruit.
Money certainly helps you eat a better and more varied diet, but it's not an essential pre-requisite to avoiding junk. Many whole foods are cheaper and provide much better nutrition than packaged junk. Making food from scratch is cheaper than eating out. And certainly vinegar and baking soda is cheaper than store bought cleaners lol
You are all over the place.
Sourcing was the gist of your last post, and that was what I took the greatest issue with.
Now you're on about your upbringing and how you had scratch cooking and how scratch cooking helps one "avoid junk".
I agree that it's cheaper to buy ingredients for frequently cooked items and make those items yourself, but that wasn't your original point, so could you get back to that one?
Is it your position that it's about "caring" or is it simply a luxury you can afford to indulge because you have the money and can you now admit that it was rather ridiculous of you to post a "do any of you care" screed considering you have the money to afford to "care"?
My position has nothing to do with what myself or anyone else can afford, or even chooses to buy. It was more of a general debate question. I was curious about people's opinions about the quality of food, as an extension of the natural/ artificial debate. As I made clear, I believe different foods have their own ineherent values as better or worse for health, aside from the context of diet and moderation. There are obviously many different facets to this - ingredients in processed food is one, source/ quality of raw ingredients is another, there is obviously also nutritional value but that's fairly obvious so I'm not touching on that one.
My position is that certain food choices are healthier than others - and it has nothing to do with whether one can buy them or not. Grass fed meat from a local farm is a healthier choice than the cheapest beef at Walmart. Homemade cake made with real butter, eggs, and sugar is healthier than a twinkie - even though it's still cake and therefore not as healthy as, say, a bowl of spinach. I see it as a range of good to bad. Even if I couldn't afford organic chicken - and I mentioned I don't actually buy organic everything - i would still believe the organic chicken is a better choice. If I could only afford to eat instant ramen, it doesn't mean I would honestly beli and that it's a perfectly healthy nutritious food. 'privilige' has absolutely nothing to do with it, and I only talked about my background to counter the fact that my view comes from a position of privilege. I was, however, raised with the view of making healthy choices and avoiding additives etc,in spite of our not-so-privileged lifestyle, so I suppose that had a lot with shaping my opinions
The problem is that your position examines individual foods in isolation rather than considering their context and dosage within the overall diet. Which is what truly matters.
The other problem seems to be that your 'position' is situational and based around your own personal preferences and prejudices (and social cachet) rather than fact. A fancy, expensive pastry is perfectly fine; a lowly, basic, grocery store pastry is not. Et cetera.
The point is not how much it costs and whether it's 'fancy' but what goes into it. Good bakeries use only the same ingredients I would use at home, and presumingly good quality ingredients - real butter, real eggs, real vanilla and flavoring agents etc. Next best thing to making it yourself. A good croissant, for instance, only has about four-five ingredients. There is no good reason why a Safeway croissant has about twenty ingredients listed on the package. Even the soup from their hot soup bar, made to look scratch-made, contains artificial flavorings and color among preservatives and other things. Why in the world do you need to add artificial flavor to soup??
There may not be studies at this time that this stuff is bad for you, but in my opinion any unnecessary chemicals (yes, I know 'everything' is 'chemicals') in your food that don't occur in nature and don't need to be there are just crap that, in the best case, won't do anything, and in the worst case will end up hurting your health. It's not going to benefit your health in any way so there's absolutely no reason to consume it when alternatives are available. JMO.
Your view of non-elitist store food is like you see them as a Victorian factory, imbued with coal smoke, lead and arsenic.
And you see them as being filled with workers who are the stereotypical Dr Frankenstein: mad scientists concocting evil potions that they have travelled through time and spatial dimensions to bring otherworldly "non-natural" ingredients to our planet.
Only you and your friends know the "real secret" of the evils of these mass-produced products, and you feel special for having such insight.
These common folk who work in these big factories are up to no good, Jeeves.
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nettiklive wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
You're very privileged.
And apparently, you only care as far enough as your pocketbook takes you in some cases, so that speaks to your caring being less of a bone deep conviction and more of a social construct, given how you describe what sounds like an equally privileged social circle.
Interesting.
We are financially comfortable and I definitely don't skimp on food but we also don't stock our fridge with a ton of the most expensive foods. We don't eat large portions in general and we don't eat out often (more for health reasons but still), I do comparison shop and look for sales and good deals as a rule. Some foods we simply mostly avoid because we can't afford to buy them in large quantities (or could, but it wouldn't be a wise use of our budget) - like grass fed beef for instance, so we simply eat very little beef in general, or something like wild-caught local shrimp is very expensive so it's a once-a-year type treat, and other times I buy it rarely and stick to other proteins rather than buy a lot of frozen shrimp, we eat a lot of chicken and some wild salmon and the occasional lamb leg or pork tenderloin.
As I mentioned, I grew up in a family that went through two immigrations, and we came from a country where packaged junk food wasn't even a thing when we left, it was unaccessible for most of the population. Even after coming to Canada however, with very limited finances, my mom continued to feed us mostly healthy homemade meals made with inexpensive whole ingredients. In fact junk food and fast food was considered a rare treat because it was a waste of money on something essentially non-nutritious. I remember eating a lot of baked chicken drumsticks as a kid because boneless skinless breasts were too expensive; ground beef, potatoes, pasta, buckwheat (a cultural thing), etc., soups were a staple, always fresh veggies and seasonal fruit.
Money certainly helps you eat a better and more varied diet, but it's not an essential pre-requisite to avoiding junk. Many whole foods are cheaper and provide much better nutrition than packaged junk. Making food from scratch is cheaper than eating out. And certainly vinegar and baking soda is cheaper than store bought cleaners lol
You are all over the place.
Sourcing was the gist of your last post, and that was what I took the greatest issue with.
Now you're on about your upbringing and how you had scratch cooking and how scratch cooking helps one "avoid junk".
I agree that it's cheaper to buy ingredients for frequently cooked items and make those items yourself, but that wasn't your original point, so could you get back to that one?
Is it your position that it's about "caring" or is it simply a luxury you can afford to indulge because you have the money and can you now admit that it was rather ridiculous of you to post a "do any of you care" screed considering you have the money to afford to "care"?
My position has nothing to do with what myself or anyone else can afford, or even chooses to buy. It was more of a general debate question. I was curious about people's opinions about the quality of food, as an extension of the natural/ artificial debate. As I made clear, I believe different foods have their own ineherent values as better or worse for health, aside from the context of diet and moderation. There are obviously many different facets to this - ingredients in processed food is one, source/ quality of raw ingredients is another, there is obviously also nutritional value but that's fairly obvious so I'm not touching on that one.
My position is that certain food choices are healthier than others - and it has nothing to do with whether one can buy them or not. Grass fed meat from a local farm is a healthier choice than the cheapest beef at Walmart. Homemade cake made with real butter, eggs, and sugar is healthier than a twinkie - even though it's still cake and therefore not as healthy as, say, a bowl of spinach. I see it as a range of good to bad. Even if I couldn't afford organic chicken - and I mentioned I don't actually buy organic everything - i would still believe the organic chicken is a better choice. If I could only afford to eat instant ramen, it doesn't mean I would honestly beli and that it's a perfectly healthy nutritious food. 'privilige' has absolutely nothing to do with it, and I only talked about my background to counter the fact that my view comes from a position of privilege. I was, however, raised with the view of making healthy choices and avoiding additives etc,in spite of our not-so-privileged lifestyle, so I suppose that had a lot with shaping my opinions
The problem is that your position examines individual foods in isolation rather than considering their context and dosage within the overall diet. Which is what truly matters.
The other problem seems to be that your 'position' is situational and based around your own personal preferences and prejudices (and social cachet) rather than fact. A fancy, expensive pastry is perfectly fine; a lowly, basic, grocery store pastry is not. Et cetera.
The point is not how much it costs and whether it's 'fancy' but what goes into it. Good bakeries use only the same ingredients I would use at home, and presumingly good quality ingredients - real butter, real eggs, real vanilla and flavoring agents etc. Next best thing to making it yourself. A good croissant, for instance, only has about four-five ingredients. There is no good reason why a Safeway croissant has about twenty ingredients listed on the package. Even the soup from their hot soup bar, made to look scratch-made, contains artificial flavorings and color among preservatives and other things. Why in the world do you need to add artificial flavor to soup??
There may not be studies at this time that this stuff is bad for you, but in my opinion any unnecessary chemicals (yes, I know 'everything' is 'chemicals') in your food that don't occur in nature and don't need to be there are just crap that, in the best case, won't do anything, and in the worst case will end up hurting your health. It's not going to benefit your health in any way so there's absolutely no reason to consume it when alternatives are available. JMO.
You really fail to see the privilege that drips from your arguments.
You live in a part of the country that enjoys a unique combination of environment, location, and wealth to support local organic farms that produce ingredients that you are holding up as ideal and hold the cost down. Much of the country does not have these benefits.
You then make pronouncements that such ingredients are nutritionally superior without any evidence, and that you don't trust the scientific and regulatory authorities that dispute your claims. Then you state that we should accept your statements at face value and argue only that point and no other considerations can be allowed.
You keep then insinuating some unspecified harm from foods that are accessible to 'ordinary' people such as supermarket bread, soups, etc. Again, no evidence, just your feelings.
And finally, you insist we should simply accede to your premise and advise people accordingly only on the terms you have deemed acceptable. Can you explain how this is not coming from a position of exceptional privilege? Sadly, this is the same bubble mentality that gave us the anti-vax movement.
People, in the real world, have to factor things like cost, spoilage, and their time and resources for prep and cooking that go far beyond the 'quality' of individual ingredients. People can produce healthy, nutritious meals from subpar ingredients, and have for ages. Some of our best and most celebrated cuisines have come from that, and now we pay top dollar for a celebrity chef to recreate those recipes.40 -
When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.24 -
Here's the White Bean and Kale option:
Water, Cooked Navy Beans, Kale, Diced Tomatoes in Tomato Juice, Onions, Red Peppers, Contains Less than 2% of: Modified Cornstarch, Salt, Canola Oil, Roasted Garlic, Celery, Carrots, Cultured Dextrose, Spices, Paprika.16 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
They may have changed it since, as others. I was.getting it probably eight or so years ago. I just distinctly remember getting their baked potato soup and the glancing at ingredients and seeing artificial flavor among a long ingredient list, and wondering why on Earth would you need to add artificial flavor to potato soup.19 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
This is extremely close to how I would prepare it at home.
What "chemicals" in this soup should be avoided by the average person (sans any allergies or medical conditions)?13 -
nettiklive wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
They may have changed it since, as others. I was.getting it probably eight or so years ago. I just distinctly remember getting their baked potato soup and the glancing at ingredients and seeing artificial flavor among a long ingredient list, and wondering why on Earth would you need to add artificial flavor to potato soup.
To make it taste better? Here’s a good explanation of the difference between natural and artificial flavours:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-difference-be-2002-07-29/
I remember watching a science video many years ago explaining the difference, and they showed in a lab how they’re each made, and that article sums it up nicely. Just because something has the word “artificial” in front of it does not mean that it’s dangerous poison, or that it’s any different from a natural flavour.19 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Same with additives. No, right now there aren't studies showing harm. However . . .
I'm not sure what the point of a debate is when one side acknowledges that there is no evidence for their position but intends to carry on believing it anyway.
Because there isn't evidence DISproving harm either.
If I had read multiple large-scale independent longitudinal studies demonstrating clearly that absolutely no ill effects were shown in individuals consuming significant amounts of xyz additive on a regular basis over their lifetimes, I may believe it.
Until then, I will remain skeptical and critical.
I mentioned thalidomide above as one of the examples where using criticism helps. It was approved for use in pregnant women, which means women trusted their doctors when they said it was safe. Same with DES, which was given to increase fetal birthweight and resulted in cancers and birth defects (if you have never read My Year of Meats btw, I highly recommend it; insightful book touching on why it is worth it to reserve a measure of skepticism towards industry and medical claims). Science makes mistakes. Medicine makes mistakes. To me, knowing this history, it made sense that for instance during my pregnancy, and even in regular life, that I would not blindly take a new, non-essential medication suggested to me to treat a minor symptom, even if it was shown 'safe'. Not unless I could thoroughly research and verify its safety and even then.
If there is one thing I learned as I got older and faced various health and other issues, it's that no one, but no one, cares about your health and well-being aside from yourself and your loved ones. Not authorities, not doctors, not regulatory bodies. You need to be your own advocate, do your own research - and if significant research does not exist on a topic, figure out your own comfort zone with the risk involved. Weigh risks and benefits. That's different for everyone. There's nothing 'moral' about it, it really comes down to personal choice and it makes zero sense to berate someone for the choices they make for their own health...
I have medical care providers in my family, several of them. I assure you that even if some doctors don't care about the health of their patients, there are also some who do.
Just because I'm curious, how would you construct a study that disproves a substance is harmful?21 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »My husband hates anchovies, your son hates "artificial candy." This doesn't tell us anything about the inherent value of these foods. It simply tells us what not to serve these individuals. I also understand that some people find it difficult to enjoy other foods if they eat a lot of "junk food." You were in this group. This tells us something about you, but it doesn't mean that other people (who are capable of enjoying potato chips and baked potatoes, donuts and oatmeal) need to pay attention to the categories you've created.
Yep.
I'll note that invariably I find that people who claim to not be able to appreciate non junk food when eating junk food* are not so much people who ate too much junk food (although probably that too) as people who have not been exposed sufficiently to other foods. I always found the claim pretty weird, since I never found that drinking soda (diet mostly) or eating sweets affected my palate for other things, and this could be just an individual difference, but almost always people who say that turn out to be people who really ate quite poor diets (and few fruits and veg) until recently, and so they needed to really wean off that stuff to even have the patience to work on expanding their palates. Others in similar situations seem to have been able to work on expanding and to do so without a dramatic change. It is true that often palates change between childhood and adulthood, so if one doesn't get exposed to different kinds of foods that might not happen (I like lots of foods that I did not as a kid, when I was disgusted by far more things, disliked spicy and some other strong flavors, etc., and I tend to dislike super sweet in a way I didn't as much back then (although even as a kid I hated some extra sweet things -- just personal taste, not meaningful, as you note)). It's also true that how much salt you consume affects the palate and that many new flavors (such as new vegetables) may need to be introduced multiple times to take.
I found it interesting that the same poster lecturing us about eating naturally admitted upthread that she doesn't really care for vegetables and fruit (if memory serves) but eats it for health reasons. Maybe that's related to this fear that if people didn't adopt rigid categories they'd eat poorly, she doesn't understand that many of us eat a variety of things (including vegetables and fruit) just because we enjoy them, as well as because of a desire to eat an overall balanced, nutrient-dense diet.
*Junk food is kind of a problematic term here anyway, as the poster has said she's good with homemade sweets, and I wouldn't call a homemade donut less "junk food" than a purchased one.
It brings us back to the "why would people ever eat strawberries if they also allow themselves frosting?" argument made earlier in the thread . . . if you don't genuinely enjoy fruits and vegetables, it's going to be hard to imagine why other people would choose them sometimes and cake at other times. It's got to be a fear-based or virtue-based system that is driving people to choose vegetables because that is what is driving them to include them in their diet.
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crabbybrianna wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
They may have changed it since, as others. I was.getting it probably eight or so years ago. I just distinctly remember getting their baked potato soup and the glancing at ingredients and seeing artificial flavor among a long ingredient list, and wondering why on Earth would you need to add artificial flavor to potato soup.
To make it taste better? Here’s a good explanation of the difference between natural and artificial flavours:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-difference-be-2002-07-29/
I remember watching a science video many years ago explaining the difference, and they showed in a lab how they’re each made, and that article sums it up nicely. Just because something has the word “artificial” in front of it does not mean that it’s dangerous poison, or that it’s any different from a natural flavour.
A friend of mine used to date a food scientist who developed new sprinkles and fake blueberries and things. He used to bring home samples that we'd taste test for him. It was always fun.19 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I think natural or whole foods tend to be healthier than "other food", which I would consider to be refined an highly processed with additives to make the food more shelf stable or appealing (to look at and then eat).
I don't think some "other foods" are horrible for many people to eat. a few doritos won't hurt most people but a few cigarettes don't hurt most people either... but you are probably better off skipping both.
IMO, natural or whole foods are usually better for health than "other foods", so I try to make that the majority of my diet.
For weight management I think it matters less unless you are someone who's weight is affected by poor health that is affected or caused by "other foods".
Are we really better off skipping a few corn chips? I mean, how is this quantified?
If this is your general impression, that's one thing. But as a factual statement, I'm scratching my head to see what this is based on.
I doubt it is quantifiable.
... Actually I doubt that a few cigarettes would have a quantifiable effect either.
But I did say it as part of my opinion. I think Doritos are not a great food choice. A few may not hurt anyone but more may, IMO.
We actually can track changes in the body that are tied to smoking a cigarette, even just one (heart rate, blood pressure, platelet changes, etc). If one doesn't smoke more cigarettes, the body returns to normal. Even then, people who smoke lightly but regularly still have an increased death rate as opposed to those who don't smoke.
Given that we don't have any evidence of a specific impact corn chips have on the body or an increased death rate due to light corn chip consumption, I don't think it's a fair comparison.
I don't know exactly what it means to say something isn't a great food choice without any additional information about how many are being consumed or the overall context of the diet. What does it mean for something not to be a great food choice?
A not great food choice is something that should not be eaten in large amounts or frequently. Usually a food that offers calories and taste but very little else, IMO.
I have tons of foods in my kitchen right now that I would never eat in large amounts. Coconut oil, mentioned just below, is a great example.
Every food I eat regularly has macronutrients in addition to calories. So I'm not sure what you mean by a food that offers calories and taste but very little else. Do you not consider macronutrients to be something a food can offer?
I'm not following your thinking here. Yes, food has macronutrients. What does that have to do with what I said ?
It's sort of like arguing that food has pretty colours so does that not offer something to a person?janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I think natural or whole foods tend to be healthier than "other food", which I would consider to be refined an highly processed with additives to make the food more shelf stable or appealing (to look at and then eat).
I don't think some "other foods" are horrible for many people to eat. a few doritos won't hurt most people but a few cigarettes don't hurt most people either... but you are probably better off skipping both.
IMO, natural or whole foods are usually better for health than "other foods", so I try to make that the majority of my diet.
For weight management I think it matters less unless you are someone who's weight is affected by poor health that is affected or caused by "other foods".
Are we really better off skipping a few corn chips? I mean, how is this quantified?
If this is your general impression, that's one thing. But as a factual statement, I'm scratching my head to see what this is based on.
I doubt it is quantifiable.
... Actually I doubt that a few cigarettes would have a quantifiable effect either.
But I did say it as part of my opinion. I think Doritos are not a great food choice. A few may not hurt anyone but more may, IMO.
We actually can track changes in the body that are tied to smoking a cigarette, even just one (heart rate, blood pressure, platelet changes, etc). If one doesn't smoke more cigarettes, the body returns to normal. Even then, people who smoke lightly but regularly still have an increased death rate as opposed to those who don't smoke.
Given that we don't have any evidence of a specific impact corn chips have on the body or an increased death rate due to light corn chip consumption, I don't think it's a fair comparison.
I don't know exactly what it means to say something isn't a great food choice without any additional information about how many are being consumed or the overall context of the diet. What does it mean for something not to be a great food choice?
A not great food choice is something that should not be eaten in large amounts or frequently. Usually a food that offers calories and taste but very little else, IMO.
Like coconut oil or heavy whipping cream?
Yes. I don't recommend them in large amounts.
You say you're better off skipping Doritos and even compared them to cigarettes, do you have the same position on coconut oil and heavy whipping cream?
If someone is eating high carb AND high fat, I would say yes, they are probably better off skipping coconut oil and cream.
Otherwise my position is exactly as stated. I don't recommend them in large amounts.
You said a not great food choice was a food that offered calories and taste and not much else. I was saying I didn't understand the "not much else" in the context of all foods having macronutrients.
If coconut oil and heavy whipping cream depend on the overall context of the diet to understand why people should include them or eliminate them, why don't Doritos? Why are coconut oil and heavy whipping cream okay for some people, but Doritos are -- across the board -- a not great food choice?
I'm trying to understand what difference you see -- if any -- between coconut oil/heavy whipping cream and Doritos.
Both contain a macronutrient that some people can overdo depending on the overall context of their diet. Both are rich in macronutrients but don't contain a lot of micronutrients. Both are calorie-dense, so people who are watching calories will have to be mindful of portions.
The part of my argument that you moved away from was the naturally occurring, whole foods tend to be healthier than highly processed foods with a disturbingly long shelf life.
Although coconut cream and whipping cream are caloricly dense and can be over eaten - well, any food can be over eaten - they are foods that have been eaten for a long time. They were not invented to appeal to our taste and make money.
They do have a lot of calories so people may need to watch their intake- meaning they should not eat too much, iMO. But these naturally occurring foods ( or fats ) is something humans naturally eat. Invented foods are more questionable. Not all horrible but many, like Doritos, are less ideal than more naturally occurring foods ( and I do mean foods and not naturally occurring toxins).
You know me, I like my fats, but I will not touch trans fats - another invented food that we know is not great.
Foods are not all black and white. Good vs evil. There is a lot of grey. Doritos are in the the grey. IMO, they are towards the end of the spectrum of foods that do not offer anything positive to overall health beyond calories but may not harm the health of most people. Not a great food.
Cream is a mediocre food, iMO. Some nutrition but I limit it because it doesn't completely agree with me.
Coconut cream is toward the healthier end of grey for me. Low in carbs and the mct in it is helpful to my health goals.
YMMV
I don't get what is wrong with a food that was invented to appeal to taste and/or produce profit for someone.
I understand that either motivation could lead to poor products being introduced to the market ("poor" as in unsafe or just not very tasty), but in and of itself, those aren't bad things.
If we found out that the first person to extract oil from a coconut was trying to make a buck from it or did it because they thought it would taste really, really good, would that change a single thing about the properties of coconut oil? No.
If the corn chip was an older food and had been consumed for longer portion of human history, would it change anything about it?
So I'm not seeing the relevance here.15 -
nettiklive wrote: »Genuine question: do those of you who don't care about artificial additives in food also don't care about the source of the ingredients? As in, where your meat, produce etc comes from, whether it's organic, if seafood is imported and farm-raised etc? Again this is something that is very standard where I live, everyone tries to get the best ingredients they can afford and as local/seasonal as possible, I don't buy all organic but always organic meats and dairy at least for the kids (my husband eats a lot of chicken so I'll often get large packages of conventional chicken breasts for him otherwise we'd go broke lol); wild-caught fish and seafood as there are concerns about farm-raised, and we try to mostly avoid imported seafood when possible (which is most grocery store frozen seafood) since I read it is all produced in Asia with very little regulations and heavy metals and other contaminants have been found in large doses. I will get some shrimp every once in a while if I get a craving but I try to limit. In the summer, I try to buy produce local and from farmer's markets if possible.
Curious, do all of you consider all that 'woo' too?? No one cares? As I said, caring about this stuff is very normal around where I live so reading how no one cares on here seems strange. Do you all also use traditional cleaning supplies? Again, everyone I know has pretty much switched to either homemade solutions such as vinegar or natural-based cleaners to avoid the extra chemicals. Also all BS?
I do care about the sourcing of my ingredients, but it's for ethical reasons.
Swapping one set of household cleaning chemicals for another set of chemicals to avoid chemicals? Yeah, that seems like pure woo to me.19 -
Many Americans do not care about food additives; they are more worried about having enough food to last until the next paycheck/SNAP benefit, etc. Visit your nearest Walmart to see what a lot of American families are eating - milk ($1.99/gal store brand vs organic milk at $6.00/gal), store brand boxed cereal, chicken - whatever is on sale, usually legs and thighs, store brand bread (usually white), cheap hamburger.12
-
nettiklive wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
They may have changed it since, as others. I was.getting it probably eight or so years ago. I just distinctly remember getting their baked potato soup and the glancing at ingredients and seeing artificial flavor among a long ingredient list, and wondering why on Earth would you need to add artificial flavor to potato soup.
Nothing *needs* to be added to potato soup (except, I guess, potatoes), so I'm guessing they added the artificial flavor because they felt like it . . . improved the flavor.
Now that enough people are looking at artificial flavor and having an emotional reaction to it, they're switching to things like yeast extract to do the same thing. But the reason for adding either, despite it not being mandatory, they think it helps the flavor.
I think it's an odd kind of puritanism to think people have to justify an attempt to make a food taste better.
If you're demanding a justification for artificial flavor but not for onions, why?18 -
janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
They may have changed it since, as others. I was.getting it probably eight or so years ago. I just distinctly remember getting their baked potato soup and the glancing at ingredients and seeing artificial flavor among a long ingredient list, and wondering why on Earth would you need to add artificial flavor to potato soup.
Nothing *needs* to be added to potato soup (except, I guess, potatoes), so I'm guessing they added the artificial flavor because they felt like it . . . improved the flavor.
Now that enough people are looking at artificial flavor and having an emotional reaction to it, they're switching to things like yeast extract to do the same thing. But the reason for adding either, despite it not being mandatory, they think it helps the flavor.
I think it's an odd kind of puritanism to think people have to justify an attempt to make a food taste better.
If you're demanding a justification for artificial flavor but not for onions, why?
Exactly. Today I wanted to make roasted eggplant sandwich. Nothing needs to be added to eggplant to make roasted eggplant, but I added a drop of liquid smoke to my BBQ sauce and brushed the eggplant with it because I thought it would improve the flavor (and it did). Another thing I thought would improve the flavor was caramelized onions and mushrooms (and it did). Should I be judged for using liquid smoke but not onion and mushrooms?11 -
crabbybrianna wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
They may have changed it since, as others. I was.getting it probably eight or so years ago. I just distinctly remember getting their baked potato soup and the glancing at ingredients and seeing artificial flavor among a long ingredient list, and wondering why on Earth would you need to add artificial flavor to potato soup.
To make it taste better? Here’s a good explanation of the difference between natural and artificial flavours:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-difference-be-2002-07-29/
I remember watching a science video many years ago explaining the difference, and they showed in a lab how they’re each made, and that article sums it up nicely. Just because something has the word “artificial” in front of it does not mean that it’s dangerous poison, or that it’s any different from a natural flavour.
I love the last paragraph...
So is there truly a difference between natural and artificial flavorings? Yes. Artificial flavorings are simpler in composition and potentially safer because only safety-tested components are utilized. Another difference between natural and artificial flavorings is cost. The search for "natural" sources of chemicals often requires that a manufacturer go to great lengths to obtain a given chemical. Natural coconut flavorings, for example, depend on a chemical called massoya lactone. Massoya lactone comes from the bark of the Massoya tree, which grows in Malaysia. Collecting this natural chemical kills the tree because harvesters must remove the bark and extract it to obtain the lactone. Furthermore, the process is costly. This pure natural chemical is identical to the version made in an organic chemists laboratory, yet it is much more expensive than the synthetic alternative. Consumers pay a lot for natural flavorings. But these are in fact no better in quality, nor are they safer, than their cost-effective artificial counterparts.
Kind of makes the automatic demonization of anything "artificial" and the automatic elevation of anything "natural" a bit silly, doesn't it? Especially if a person cares, or purports to care, about other causes such as environmental sustainability...35 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
They may have changed it since, as others. I was.getting it probably eight or so years ago. I just distinctly remember getting their baked potato soup and the glancing at ingredients and seeing artificial flavor among a long ingredient list, and wondering why on Earth would you need to add artificial flavor to potato soup.
Nothing *needs* to be added to potato soup (except, I guess, potatoes), so I'm guessing they added the artificial flavor because they felt like it . . . improved the flavor.
Now that enough people are looking at artificial flavor and having an emotional reaction to it, they're switching to things like yeast extract to do the same thing. But the reason for adding either, despite it not being mandatory, they think it helps the flavor.
I think it's an odd kind of puritanism to think people have to justify an attempt to make a food taste better.
If you're demanding a justification for artificial flavor but not for onions, why?
Exactly. Today I wanted to make roasted eggplant sandwich. Nothing needs to be added to eggplant to make roasted eggplant, but I added a drop of liquid smoke to my BBQ sauce and brushed the eggplant with it because I thought it would improve the flavor (and it did). Another thing I thought would improve the flavor was caramelized onions and mushrooms (and it did). Should I be judged for using liquid smoke but not onion and mushrooms?
OT: That sandwich sounds amazing.6 -
WinoGelato wrote: »crabbybrianna wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
They may have changed it since, as others. I was.getting it probably eight or so years ago. I just distinctly remember getting their baked potato soup and the glancing at ingredients and seeing artificial flavor among a long ingredient list, and wondering why on Earth would you need to add artificial flavor to potato soup.
To make it taste better? Here’s a good explanation of the difference between natural and artificial flavours:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-difference-be-2002-07-29/
I remember watching a science video many years ago explaining the difference, and they showed in a lab how they’re each made, and that article sums it up nicely. Just because something has the word “artificial” in front of it does not mean that it’s dangerous poison, or that it’s any different from a natural flavour.
I love the last paragraph...
So is there truly a difference between natural and artificial flavorings? Yes. Artificial flavorings are simpler in composition and potentially safer because only safety-tested components are utilized. Another difference between natural and artificial flavorings is cost. The search for "natural" sources of chemicals often requires that a manufacturer go to great lengths to obtain a given chemical. Natural coconut flavorings, for example, depend on a chemical called massoya lactone. Massoya lactone comes from the bark of the Massoya tree, which grows in Malaysia. Collecting this natural chemical kills the tree because harvesters must remove the bark and extract it to obtain the lactone. Furthermore, the process is costly. This pure natural chemical is identical to the version made in an organic chemists laboratory, yet it is much more expensive than the synthetic alternative. Consumers pay a lot for natural flavorings. But these are in fact no better in quality, nor are they safer, than their cost-effective artificial counterparts.
Kind of makes the automatic demonization of anything "artificial" and the automatic elevation of anything "natural" a bit silly, doesn't it? Especially if a person cares, or purports to care, about other causes such as environmental sustainability...
I feel like telling this particular person that natural flavors are more expensive and difficult to obtain is only going to increase the idealization.
19 -
diannethegeek wrote: »crabbybrianna wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »When my sister and I were staying in the PNW when my mother was sick I had a bunch of those Safeway soups. Thus, I wondered what these terrifying ingredients were that only people who are unenlightened would eat (we don't have Safeway where I live, but I never realized it was some chamber of horrors).
So here's the first one I found online, Tuscan Tomato and Basil Bisque:
Tomato Puree, Cream, Canola Oil, Sugar, Onions, Butternut Squash. Less than 2% of: Chicken Stock Concentrate, Butter, Salt, Garlic, Modified Cornstarch, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Enriched Wheat Flour, Cultured Dextrose, Whey Protein Concentrate, Flavoring, Dehydrated Tomatoes, Red Pepper, Basil, Dehydrated Onions, Yeast Extract, Annatto Extract for Color, Spices, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein.
Doesn't actually seem that scary.
They may have changed it since, as others. I was.getting it probably eight or so years ago. I just distinctly remember getting their baked potato soup and the glancing at ingredients and seeing artificial flavor among a long ingredient list, and wondering why on Earth would you need to add artificial flavor to potato soup.
To make it taste better? Here’s a good explanation of the difference between natural and artificial flavours:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-difference-be-2002-07-29/
I remember watching a science video many years ago explaining the difference, and they showed in a lab how they’re each made, and that article sums it up nicely. Just because something has the word “artificial” in front of it does not mean that it’s dangerous poison, or that it’s any different from a natural flavour.
A friend of mine used to date a food scientist who developed new sprinkles and fake blueberries and things. He used to bring home samples that we'd taste test for him. It was always fun.
That sounds amazing. The same video about artificial vs natural flavours also had a segment where they had lots of little vials with clear liquid in them. They were all different flavours, and people were tasting them and trying to guess what flavour it was. It looked like a lot of fun. The people doing the testing were pretty excited, lol!1
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