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Is verbal harassment common at the gym? And do women or men catch more of it?
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tbright1965 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »mom23mangos wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Oh, having read some of this thread, lemme just state
Are some guys jerks? Prolly.
Does it go on in various.locations? Sure.
Do women AND.men sometimes take things differently than they were intended? Yup.
That said, I'm a guy, but I am seriously not good at apologizing for what I didnt personally do. I mean not good as in do not hold your breath.
I think your commitment to non-apology isn't about what you did or didn't do. It sounds like you refuse to apologize for things you didn't intend.
If some didn't do something, they certainly didn't intend to do it, did they?
I don't rape women. Should I apologize on behalf of others who do?
Should I expect women to apologize because my ex-wife was an unfaithful..... Of course not. I mean just because my ex-wife couldn't help falling on another man's *kitten* doesn't mean I hold the entire sisterhood accountable for her betrayal.
I think people are rightfully tired of painting with a broad brush.
Are there men who are knuckleheads? Yes.
Are men in general knuckleheads? No.
Should non-knucklehead men apologize for the knuckleheads? Of course not. Likewise, women who are not knuckleheads should not be held responsible for what their knuckleheaded sisters do.
I'm not reading this as being unwilling to own his *kitten*. I read it as being unwilling to own a blanket complaint that applies to a minority of people.
I've only skimmed the thread, but where was an apology from all men asked for?
There wasn't. @jls1leather9497 was just stating he wasn't going to apologize to the pissed off girl at his gym when he didn't do anything. At least that was my take on where that went.
Personally, if people around me get upset and I legitimately can't see what I did to upset them, then I conclude that it may not be about me at all. Most things aren't about me.
Maybe she's just a cranky gym person. If you see someone twice and they have issues both times, they may just be someone with issues that don't involve you at all.
Unless I read it wrong, someone suggested that he do something wrong, just unintentionally.
I'm not seeing that.
I saw someone say that it is *possible* to do something worth apologizing for even if it is unintentional. Nobody suggested that person in particular apologize or that men are being expected to apologize for the poor behavior of other men.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »mom23mangos wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Oh, having read some of this thread, lemme just state
Are some guys jerks? Prolly.
Does it go on in various.locations? Sure.
Do women AND.men sometimes take things differently than they were intended? Yup.
That said, I'm a guy, but I am seriously not good at apologizing for what I didnt personally do. I mean not good as in do not hold your breath.
I think your commitment to non-apology isn't about what you did or didn't do. It sounds like you refuse to apologize for things you didn't intend.
If some didn't do something, they certainly didn't intend to do it, did they?
I don't rape women. Should I apologize on behalf of others who do?
Should I expect women to apologize because my ex-wife was an unfaithful..... Of course not. I mean just because my ex-wife couldn't help falling on another man's *kitten* doesn't mean I hold the entire sisterhood accountable for her betrayal.
I think people are rightfully tired of painting with a broad brush.
Are there men who are knuckleheads? Yes.
Are men in general knuckleheads? No.
Should non-knucklehead men apologize for the knuckleheads? Of course not. Likewise, women who are not knuckleheads should not be held responsible for what their knuckleheaded sisters do.
I'm not reading this as being unwilling to own his *kitten*. I read it as being unwilling to own a blanket complaint that applies to a minority of people.
I've only skimmed the thread, but where was an apology from all men asked for?
There wasn't. @jls1leather9497 was just stating he wasn't going to apologize to the pissed off girl at his gym when he didn't do anything. At least that was my take on where that went.
Personally, if people around me get upset and I legitimately can't see what I did to upset them, then I conclude that it may not be about me at all. Most things aren't about me.
Maybe she's just a cranky gym person. If you see someone twice and they have issues both times, they may just be someone with issues that don't involve you at all.
Unless I read it wrong, someone suggested that he do something wrong, just unintentionally.
I'm not seeing that.
I saw someone say that it is *possible* to do something worth apologizing for even if it is unintentional. Nobody suggested that person in particular apologize or that men are being expected to apologize for the poor behavior of other men.
Do other people not check? If someone around me appears upset, and I can't think of what I may have done to upset them, I generally ask, "is everything all right?" It just seems unreasonable to me to assume that I'm completely aware of everything that's going on and nothing could possibly have slipped past my notice.5 -
clicketykeys wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »mom23mangos wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Oh, having read some of this thread, lemme just state
Are some guys jerks? Prolly.
Does it go on in various.locations? Sure.
Do women AND.men sometimes take things differently than they were intended? Yup.
That said, I'm a guy, but I am seriously not good at apologizing for what I didnt personally do. I mean not good as in do not hold your breath.
I think your commitment to non-apology isn't about what you did or didn't do. It sounds like you refuse to apologize for things you didn't intend.
If some didn't do something, they certainly didn't intend to do it, did they?
I don't rape women. Should I apologize on behalf of others who do?
Should I expect women to apologize because my ex-wife was an unfaithful..... Of course not. I mean just because my ex-wife couldn't help falling on another man's *kitten* doesn't mean I hold the entire sisterhood accountable for her betrayal.
I think people are rightfully tired of painting with a broad brush.
Are there men who are knuckleheads? Yes.
Are men in general knuckleheads? No.
Should non-knucklehead men apologize for the knuckleheads? Of course not. Likewise, women who are not knuckleheads should not be held responsible for what their knuckleheaded sisters do.
I'm not reading this as being unwilling to own his *kitten*. I read it as being unwilling to own a blanket complaint that applies to a minority of people.
I've only skimmed the thread, but where was an apology from all men asked for?
There wasn't. @jls1leather9497 was just stating he wasn't going to apologize to the pissed off girl at his gym when he didn't do anything. At least that was my take on where that went.
Personally, if people around me get upset and I legitimately can't see what I did to upset them, then I conclude that it may not be about me at all. Most things aren't about me.
Maybe she's just a cranky gym person. If you see someone twice and they have issues both times, they may just be someone with issues that don't involve you at all.
Unless I read it wrong, someone suggested that he do something wrong, just unintentionally.
I'm not seeing that.
I saw someone say that it is *possible* to do something worth apologizing for even if it is unintentional. Nobody suggested that person in particular apologize or that men are being expected to apologize for the poor behavior of other men.
Do other people not check? If someone around me appears upset, and I can't think of what I may have done to upset them, I generally ask, "is everything all right?" It just seems unreasonable to me to assume that I'm completely aware of everything that's going on and nothing could possibly have slipped past my notice.
I usually ask. I know from past experience it's possible for me to do things that are hurtful/upsetting even though my intentions are good.6 -
clicketykeys wrote: »
Do other people not check? If someone around me appears upset, and I can't think of what I may have done to upset them, I generally ask, "is everything all right?"
That alone would have been an issue for this girl.
I was brand new at the gym. There are two cable machines side by side, with bars and handles on a rack to the side.
This girl was using.one.of the cable stacks. I was looking at what was available so I could create a rational exercise program.
I didnt see any wrist/ankle straps, so when she finished her set i asked her if they have those here, or maybe they were somewhere else?
She made a face, clearly looking put out by somebody asking a simple question. Now, I didnt worry too much, cuz who cares, right? Some girl I dont know doesnt want anybody talking to her - HOW WILL I ever sleep at night@! 🤔
I've only seen her 2 or 3 times since. She didnt say 'hi', neither did I. Whatever. But dont be telling yer friends you were "harrassed" at the gym ...1 -
jls1leather9497 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »
Do other people not check? If someone around me appears upset, and I can't think of what I may have done to upset them, I generally ask, "is everything all right?"
That alone would have been an issue for this girl.
I was brand new at the gym. There are two cable machines side by side, with bars and handles on a rack to the side.
This girl was using.one.of the cable stacks. I was looking at what was available so I could create a rational exercise program.
I didnt see any wrist/ankle straps, so when she finished her set i asked her if they have those here, or maybe they were somewhere else?
She made a face, clearly looking put out by somebody asking a simple question. Now, I didnt worry too much, cuz who cares, right? Some girl I dont know doesnt want anybody talking to her - HOW WILL I ever sleep at night@! 🤔
I've only seen her 2 or 3 times since. She didnt say 'hi', neither did I. Whatever. But dont be telling yer friends you were "harrassed" at the gym ...
You're attributing so much to her. It's possible that this is much more significant to you than it is to her.
I'm not sure why you think it's even a possibility that she thinks she was harassed. This drama about being falsely accused of harassment, why does it have anything with this "girl" (who was probably actually a woman if she was doing weights)?
I don't say "hi" to hardly anyone at the gym, including people that I see regularly. It's just not my thing. It has nothing to do with me feeling harassed. Believe me, women can tell the difference. Even girls can!13 -
Once after a workout I went to the locker room to get changed. It was empty, except for a guy, with his bag over his shoulder, looking like he was done and about to leave.
After I got undressed, I looked up and saw that he was still there. Just standing. Watching me... Fiddling with the toothpick in his mouth as he watched. Creeped me the kitten out. I just got on with dressing up and getting the kitten out of there!5 -
SusieBanyon wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »
Do other people not check? If someone around me appears upset, and I can't think of what I may have done to upset them, I generally ask, "is everything all right?"
That alone would have been an issue for this girl.
I was brand new at the gym. There are two cable machines side by side, with bars and handles on a rack to the side.
This girl was using.one.of the cable stacks. I was looking at what was available so I could create a rational exercise program.
I didnt see any wrist/ankle straps, so when she finished her set i asked her if they have those here, or maybe they were somewhere else?
She made a face, clearly looking put out by somebody asking a simple question. Now, I didnt worry too much, cuz who cares, right? Some girl I dont know doesnt want anybody talking to her - HOW WILL I ever sleep at night@! 🤔
I've only seen her 2 or 3 times since. She didnt say 'hi', neither did I. Whatever. But dont be telling yer friends you were "harrassed" at the gym ...
I can understand her not saying hi - maybe she doesn't want to give the wrong impression, maybe she has a family at home/a significant other on her mind and doesn't want to get too friendly with dudes at the gym. Sure, a simple hello isn't an immediate invite to a romp, but it's a well known fact that it could open doors and invite things she isn't interested in.
Her face might have been just to let you know not to get the wrong idea, not actually offended. Or maybe she was in deep thought. Maybe she has legal/family problems and isn't in the right frame of mind to socialize. Maybe she has RBF (a real thing) and is a sweetheart.
This was my thought as well. I most definitely have RBF. I've had many people throughout my life come up and ask me what's wrong or tell me I look miserable/upset/angry. And I have to explain that all is well, that's just my face.3 -
PapillonNoire wrote: »SusieBanyon wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »clicketykeys wrote: »
Do other people not check? If someone around me appears upset, and I can't think of what I may have done to upset them, I generally ask, "is everything all right?"
That alone would have been an issue for this girl.
I was brand new at the gym. There are two cable machines side by side, with bars and handles on a rack to the side.
This girl was using.one.of the cable stacks. I was looking at what was available so I could create a rational exercise program.
I didnt see any wrist/ankle straps, so when she finished her set i asked her if they have those here, or maybe they were somewhere else?
She made a face, clearly looking put out by somebody asking a simple question. Now, I didnt worry too much, cuz who cares, right? Some girl I dont know doesnt want anybody talking to her - HOW WILL I ever sleep at night@! 🤔
I've only seen her 2 or 3 times since. She didnt say 'hi', neither did I. Whatever. But dont be telling yer friends you were "harrassed" at the gym ...
I can understand her not saying hi - maybe she doesn't want to give the wrong impression, maybe she has a family at home/a significant other on her mind and doesn't want to get too friendly with dudes at the gym. Sure, a simple hello isn't an immediate invite to a romp, but it's a well known fact that it could open doors and invite things she isn't interested in.
Her face might have been just to let you know not to get the wrong idea, not actually offended. Or maybe she was in deep thought. Maybe she has legal/family problems and isn't in the right frame of mind to socialize. Maybe she has RBF (a real thing) and is a sweetheart.
This was my thought as well. I most definitely have RBF. I've had many people throughout my life come up and ask me what's wrong or tell me I look miserable/upset/angry. And I have to explain that all is well, that's just my face.
Yeah, I've had people say something to me, and when I say everything's fine, they're sometimes very apologetic. But honestly (and I do try to let them know this) I'd much rather someone ask me about it, for several reasons - first, obviously, I'd prefer not to have them assume I'm just a jerk or that I'm mad at them "for no reason," and second, I appreciate when someone cares enough to ask. Because some days I *am* having a crappy day. And finally, if there IS some kind of problem, them asking me makes it a little easier for me to discuss it, since I don't have to bring it up myself.
Of course, how someone approaches me also may affect this; if someone came up and asked if I was okay they'd likely get a different response from someone asking "what's wrong with you?" ;D4 -
If rbf means you.look p'd off all the time, then that may be 🤗
But this is exactly what I was referring to in the last few posts. I doubt I was "attributing" something to her. She could have just said "I dont.know". Shoot, I'm easy to get along with - she could even have.said 'nun yer flippin business" or "find.it yourself" without bothering me much at all. She's not my wife, girlfriend, sister, cousin .. so her opinion isnt particularly valuable.
But bottom line is - I dont care. Maybe she's CRAZY. Maybe I took it wrong and she meant no offense at all. Whatever 😒
But somebody who thinks "hi" is "flirting" ... wow, what to even think about that?@! That guy at the post office I held the door open for must REALLY be worried 😂
Honestly, I didnt take this as a 'man vs woman' thing, but I dont know what girls think they have that warrants that of attention.0 -
jls1leather9497 wrote: »If rbf means you.look p'd off all the time, then that may be 🤗
But this is exactly what I was referring to in the last few posts. I doubt I was "attributing" something to her. She could have just said "I dont.know". Shoot, I'm easy to get along with - she could even have.said 'nun yer flippin business" or "find.it yourself" without bothering me much at all. She's not my wife, girlfriend, sister, cousin .. so her opinion isnt particularly valuable.
But bottom line is - I dont care. Maybe she's CRAZY. Maybe I took it wrong and she meant no offense at all. Whatever 😒
But somebody who thinks "hi" is "flirting" ... wow, what to even think about that?@! That guy at the post office I held the door open for must REALLY be worried 😂
Honestly, I didnt take this as a 'man vs woman' thing, but I dont know what girls think they have that warrants that of attention.
You *are* attributing things to her. You're attributing a state of mind to her and you've brought up that she'd better not tell anyone that you were harassing her at the gym . . . but why would you think that is even a possibility?
That you read this thread and immediately began writing about her to make a preemptive case that you *didn't* harass her indicates that you're attributing quite a bit to her.
Why do you need to think anything about her actions at all? If you don't care, why not just . . . stop caring?
What is the indication that she thought "hi" was flirting? On the evidence here, the only person who considers your interactions at all noteworthy is you.
Chances are this "girl" doesn't think she warrants any attention. She just wants to work out and get on with her day, like 99% of women in the gym are doing. Yet here you are, giving all this attention to her.9 -
Actually, somebody asked a question for this thread, and I mentioned the ONLY thing that ever was not NORMAL at the gym, and that I have NOT seen any harassment.
That said I'm gonna go on about business, ignore this just like I do that girl if I see her.
Truth is, I dont.even.KNOW it's a girl. And it doesnt matter. I think I'm the only one NOT making this about gender. If some DUDE had looked all ignorant about a.simple question I would have thought and said.the.same thing
As for what girls have "in.demand", big deal. Theres 7 BILLION people on the planet- 100,000 just in this town, and 52% female if you believe the census. For every girl dont talk to me, theres 5 who will, so I dont stress too much.
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I have worked out in gyms for 15 years, and have only been harassed 2 times. While 2 times is unacceptable, considering what I deal with going to grocery stores, lowe's & home depot, or pumping gas... I'd say I'm happy that the gym is somewhere I can feel safe from the bs. Both cases happened when I was around 16/17 and 22. When I was 16, I had just gotten into lifting and it was around that time that a specific older dude (30's?) wouldn't leave me alone. When I was 22 a guy kept making comments about my chest when I was doing a hiit workout on the treadmill, and then told me not to work off too much of my curves because that was how a real woman should look. I reported him, and when nothing happened, I was released from my contract with that gym and went elsewhere. Since then, I have never had an issue.2
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jls1leather9497 wrote: »If rbf means you.look p'd off all the time, then that may be 🤗
But this is exactly what I was referring to in the last few posts. I doubt I was "attributing" something to her. She could have just said "I dont.know". Shoot, I'm easy to get along with - she could even have.said 'nun yer flippin business" or "find.it yourself" without bothering me much at all. She's not my wife, girlfriend, sister, cousin .. so her opinion isnt particularly valuable.
But bottom line is - I dont care. Maybe she's CRAZY. Maybe I took it wrong and she meant no offense at all. Whatever 😒
But somebody who thinks "hi" is "flirting" ... wow, what to even think about that?@! That guy at the post office I held the door open for must REALLY be worried 😂
Honestly, I didnt take this as a 'man vs woman' thing, but I dont know what girls think they have that warrants that of attention.
You're (perhaps only superficially) concerned that a woman who was grumpy (or hostile in manner) might report you for harassing her, when you only asked a simple, natural, innocent question.
I don't know whether you've ever had a woman falsely report you for harassment, or not (or whether false reports are a common personal experience for men); and it may be that that possibility hadn't occurred to you at the time it happened, but did occur to you after you read this thread (if you said whether it was a new thought or at the time, I apologize - I didn't go back and re-read the whole subthread, which it would've been better to do).
I can understand why that "false report" thought might occur to a guy, what with everything that's going on in the world these days, news and "movements" and such.
Here's the thing: I have a hard time reconciling that with not understanding why a woman might worry that a simple social "hi" - from her to a man she doesn't really know, or from that man to her - might turn out to be an on-ramp to some kind of unpleasant and unwelcome attention.
Quite a few women in this thread, myself included, have described being harassed in daily life in some way (rarely in the gym, just in general) . . . often 100% unprovoked by anything at all we did (not even "hi"), when or before the harassment happened. It's a fairly common experience (so common that we've rarely talked about it in daily life, for years, because it's not that unusual for women - when someone asks, you find many women have some harassment experience). On top of that, harassment has been just as much in the news lately for us as for you . . . and while some of that involves false reports, most are found to be factual.
I say "hi" or "good morning" to men and women alike at the gym under appropriate circumstances (not all bother-y like, but when passing face to face in a hall or something) . . . but I'm 100% aware that not only is it a relatively-safer environment, but that I'm also insulated from perceptions of flirtiness in most cases by being over age 60 and gray haired, and I'm a quite non-anxious person by nature so I take a few minor risks I know other women don't.
I can completely understand why younger, more likely to be perceived as attractive or available women, especially those more anxious than me by nature, or with worse past experience, would be disinclined to say "hi" (which is not the same as saying I understand why, in your description, a random woman would be grumpy or hostile about a simple, completely appropriate question, delivered in exactly the same way you'd say it to a man). Polite response is compatible with rbf (you seem not familiar with the term? It's "resting b***h face".)
So: Concerned about harassment reports because of a simple question, but not able to understand harassment worries because of a simple greeting? I don't understand that.8 -
jls1leather9497 wrote: »Actually, somebody asked a question for this thread, and I mentioned the ONLY thing that ever was not NORMAL at the gym, and that I have NOT seen any harassment.
That said I'm gonna go on about business, ignore this just like I do that girl if I see her.
Truth is, I dont.even.KNOW it's a girl. And it doesnt matter. I think I'm the only one NOT making this about gender. If some DUDE had looked all ignorant about a.simple question I would have thought and said.the.same thing
As for what girls have "in.demand", big deal. Theres 7 BILLION people on the planet- 100,000 just in this town, and 52% female if you believe the census. For every girl dont talk to me, theres 5 who will, so I dont stress too much.
Want to talk some more about how much you super-duper don't care at all that this "girl" wasn't interested in chatting with you? A few more times and I think we'll finally get it.
9 -
I can understand why that "false report" thought might occur to a guy, what with everything that's going on in the world these days, news and "movements" and such.
Honestly, I don't understand. Most false reports are against minority men, but that isn't who I usually see worried about it.4 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »I can understand why that "false report" thought might occur to a guy, what with everything that's going on in the world these days, news and "movements" and such.
Honestly, I don't understand. Most false reports are against minority men, but that isn't who I usually see worried about it.
Who do you see worried about it? In fact, back up. Who said anything about that?0 -
Being an older lady I am pretty much ignored at the gym but whilst setting up for deadlifts one night I had a youngin (who thought he was funny) say "shouldn't you be home baking cookies?" to which I replied.....
"shouldn't you be home with a sock on your right hand?" ..... his buddy laughed... he did not. End of interaction. Saw him again several weeks later and he just smiled and nodded at me. its all good26 -
jls1leather9497 wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »I can understand why that "false report" thought might occur to a guy, what with everything that's going on in the world these days, news and "movements" and such.
Honestly, I don't understand. Most false reports are against minority men, but that isn't who I usually see worried about it.
Who do you see worried about it?
Well the most obvious answer would be men who are not minorities would be the dichotomy, right?
Though frankly, the people who seem most vocal about the worries that I've seen are people who give me the impression they should be worried. The type of people that say "I can't say a friendly hello" when a camera of the incident would reveal some rather hungry glares, trying to force someone into a hug, or maybe some catcalling.
A lot of the most vocal people I've seen decrying the "rise" false accusations are men who's other vocal postings show them to have thoroughly repugnant views on women, and just repugnant views in general: Men's Rights Activists, Men Going Their Own Way, Incels, and Pick Up Artists. They make some of the most vocal opponents of anti-harassment movements I've seen, and many of them have views I find thoroughly disdainful.
Now before I get strawmanned, don't try to claim I'm saying there are no false accusations, or no false accusations outside of minority men, or that everyone who claims a worry is a thoroughly repugnant person.8 -
Damned it you smile, damned if you don’t smile.9
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magnusthenerd wrote: »I can understand why that "false report" thought might occur to a guy, what with everything that's going on in the world these days, news and "movements" and such.
Honestly, I don't understand. Most false reports are against minority men, but that isn't who I usually see worried about it.
Mostly, I think, not being a man, that it would be arrogant of me to say whether they are/aren't, should/shouldn't be worried about false reports. I've known (non-minority) men who (I'm confident accurately report that they) did something completely friendly and innocent, and were misinterpreted. I know one (non-minority) who was formally accused (complicated school employee situation), who I think probably was innocent (don't know for sure). So, a bit of concern by a man, in the current news cycle situation, doesn't strike me as a completely irrational thought, in the abstract.
Thanks for your (male
) perspective, which is more experientially informed than mine.
1
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