Coronavirus prep
Replies
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It's true for me too... while I technically will be going back to work in 9 days, for this month I've been off it's been like nothing's changed other then how I shop for groceries.
I dont feel the hardships a lot of people are facing.6 -
cmriverside wrote: »littlegreenparrot1 wrote: »That's interesting, Guardian is reporting that that WHO have found that a smaller proportion of people have antibodies than they expected, less than that quoted above.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/20/studies-suggest-very-few-have-had-covid-19-without-symptoms
There are a lot of unknowns, and it takes several weeks for antibodies to form. I wouldn't use that one Guardian article as the gospel.
I don't take anything as gospel, just thought it was relevant as I had read it 10 mins beforehand.
One of the things I like about this thread is the opportunity to see opinions from other countries, both personal and in the media.
There are so many unknown unknowns that they are all just grasping in the dark really while science catches up.
We cannot continue the way we are indefinitely, there must come a time when the harms outweigh the benefits.5 -
KrissCanDoThis wrote: »It's true for me too... while I technically will be going back to work in 9 days, for this month I've been off it's been like nothing's changed other then how I shop for groceries.
I dont feel the hardships a lot of people are facing.
Me too, but I’m retired and live in the country. So not any big changes except availability of some things at the grocery store. Biggest issue is not seeing my daughter. Her birthday in 9 days & I’m sad😢10 -
fitlulu4150 wrote: »I can't find a free link to the study in LA County but here's a brief outline of the results.
On Monday, an initial report from that study was released. Based on their findings, researchers estimate that about 4.1% of the county’s adult population could have an antibody to the virus. After adjusting that estimate for the statistical margin of error, their findings suggest that somewhere between 2.8% and 5.6% of adults in the county have antibodies to the virus in their blood.
As my colleague Melanie Mason explains in her story, that would translate to roughly 221,000 to 442,000 adults who had recovered from an infection in L.A. County by early April. But at the time researchers were conducting the study, there were fewer than 8,000 confirmed cases in the county. One doesn’t need a PhD to know that these are staggeringly different numbers.
So, what does all this mean? The study suggests that the coronavirus is much more widespread than originally known, but also potentially much less lethal.
We're waiting for more access to anti-body testing here. I'm fairly confident that both our daughter in SF and my husband had it at the end of Feb or early March. If my husband did have it I may have also and been asymptomatic. Not hanging all our hopes on it but it would be nice to know and help us relax things a bit here maybe.
Cases in Riverside County CA, where I live are still increasing everyday as are hospitalizations, Icu bed #'s and deaths so we're still on the upswing side of things unfortunately. They did open the golf courses, tennis courts and some of the trails yesterday though. Lots of precautions in place though still.
Not quite as high as the Santa Clara County results, but still much more than 50% of cases are asymptomatic.3 -
Snowflake and others, who live in other countries:
With new laws and requirements from your governments, how are your people feeling about it? Do they easily comply or balk at being forced to do certain things they don't want to do?
Here in America, it saddens and scares me to see thousands of protesters congregate over it all being unconstitutional. Not many people are using masks or certainly not social distancing during these protests.
How many will needlessly suffer the ramifications of these large groups?
Businesses do need to start easing into it again so people can live and the economy can rebound a bit before it completely tanks. But with so many denying to do what's right and responsible, it's terribly scary to think about. Even such a simple thing as wearing a mask and people are already saying they'll refuse because it doesn't do any good anyways.
Just curious.......
This was one of the things I was worried about when they whole sale shuttered business. I was and still am somewhat skeptical as to whether or not that had to be done. I would have preferred other measures such as capacity limits and requiring some kind of mask or face covering to enter a business to have happened first. I'm sure it's very difficult for the guy who owns one of the local nurseries here to be shut down and not know when or if he'll ever operate again to see a parking lot full of cars at Lowes with people purchasing much of what he also sells.
At any rate, I would imagine if you polled the protesters, I would wager that many, if not most are now unemployed. When you have 20M+ people filing for unemployment and then also having difficulty getting that, you're going to start to see push back. At this point, for those people, it's not about sacrificing for the greater good...it's about self preservation. They don't know if they're going to make rent...they don't know if they will have enough money for food or to pay their utilities, etc. For these people, these concerns are now much more real and devastatingly personal than the virus. For these individuals, their economic viability is a far greater threat than the virus.
I am fortunate that my wife and I can still work and do so from home 95% of the time. The lack of social interaction is getting to us, as well as the inability to go anywhere or do anything...but that is a mild annoyance relative to wondering if we're going to foreclose on the house or if we'll be able to feed our kids, or if our utilities are going to get shut off for non payment, or how far we can stretch a buck.
You basically have two very different worlds colliding...those that can and continue to work and stay home for the greater good of the community, and those that can't work and don't know what they're going to do with self preservation as their primary concern at this point.13 -
Snowflake and others, who live in other countries:
With new laws and requirements from your governments, how are your people feeling about it? Do they easily comply or balk at being forced to do certain things they don't want to do?
Here in America, it saddens and scares me to see thousands of protesters congregate over it all being unconstitutional. Not many people are using masks or certainly not social distancing during these protests. How many will needlessly suffer the ramifications of these large groups?
Businesses do need to start easing into it again so people can live and the economy can rebound a bit before it completely tanks. But with so many denying to do what's right and responsible, it's terribly scary to think about. Even such a simple thing as wearing a mask and people are already saying they'll refuse because it doesn't do any good anyways.
Just curious.......
In New Zealand, the vast majority of people have been very compliant (this is backed by Google movement data). That's why our daily case numbers look like this:
Of course we are a much smaller country, and have less of the extremism seen in the US (which doesn't mean there's none and that everyone is happy about the measures being taken, but there's no physical protesting, etc). I also think that because we are a small country, made up of islands, most realise that we are in a very fortunate position in that, if done right, we can keep the virus very contained until a vaccine is developed.
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smithker75 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »New Zealand had it's announcement on moving from Level 4 to Level 3 (which is a slight loosening of our quite strict lockdown rules) this afternoon. We were originally scheduled to come out of Level 4 this coming Thursday at the earliest. Level 3 comes in on Tuesday week, which gives an additional five days of hard core lockdown to really solidify the low transmission/new case numbers, and also means that those businesses that can resume are doing so at the start of the work week (Monday is a public holiday for ANZAC Day).
People who are able to work from home must continue to do so, retail, bars, cafes, restaurants etc remain physically closed to the public, but any of them who can trade without physical interaction with the public are able to (so, all online shopping can resume - previously only essential goods were available/able to be delivered, restaurants can do delivery or contactless pick up, etc), early childhood centres and school for up to Year 10 is available for those who need it (ie parents going back to work with no other options for childcare), strict requirements for distancing and hygiene in place for any operational businesses, we can venture a little further afield for recreation/exercise but still expected to be at home the majority of the time if not working away from home.
ETA: NZ is in really good shape, our number of new daily cases is down to single digits (actually oscillating between high single and low to mid teens), our number of recovered cases is nearly double the number of active (which sits at 454 as of this morning).
I'd have liked to see Level 4 continued for an additional week longer (and coming out of it on May the 4th would have just been cool), but I think so long as people get the message that Level 3 is not a licence to go out and start socialising, we'll be fine.
It will be interesting to see how Australia rolls back restrictions now that NZ have started. I know we are a ways behind, and that it will vary from state to state when it does.
Schools are open here for children of essential workers and others are learning remotely at home. Do you know what the reasoning is for NZ schools to open only for students up to Year 10? Just curious as I work in education management (Aus) and this hasn't been something I've heard discussed here.
The limitation for up to Year 10 is due to the fact that kids over 14 can be legally left home alone here.
We have received notification from my son's high school and daughter's primary school that for the kids attending school (kids of workers who can't work from home) that they will still be receiving the same online programmes as those at home. They will just be in a classroom supervised by a teacher, not actually being taught in person.
Aha, I see. The delivery of school work here is the same for those attending 'in person' or online too.0 -
My county went from 0 to 10 deaths overnight and from 125 to 143 cases. We had been going up about 3-7 cases a day. I'm hoping it was a lag in reporting rather than a sudden influx of patients. Yesterday there was a big protest at the state capital with 1000 people. Few masks and no distancing. A week from now, there will be another big jump in cases. I understand why people are impatient to get back to work and get some hope of a normal income again, but gathering in a large crowd was really not smart.13
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Texas is supposed to start cautiously resuming some economic activities Friday. My county, Denton, now has 18 deaths from covid-19. I have been watching the deaths and counting the days between doublings. The 16th death, which was the fourth doubling, was posted this recent Saturday, with a span of 8 days from the 3rd doubling. They've been posted mostly in singles all through this time. If that rate of death, 1 per day, simply persists it will stretch the 5th doubling to 16 days. The statistically important thing is the days-between-doublings. To see that number grow is to know that the rate of death is falling and to infer that the rate of infection had fallen two weeks ago. As the state begins to resume operating, I'll keep watching my county's numbers.2
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Snowflake and others, who live in other countries:
With new laws and requirements from your governments, how are your people feeling about it? Do they easily comply or balk at being forced to do certain things they don't want to do?
Here in America, it saddens and scares me to see thousands of protesters congregate over it all being unconstitutional. Not many people are using masks or certainly not social distancing during these protests. How many will needlessly suffer the ramifications of these large groups?
Businesses do need to start easing into it again so people can live and the economy can rebound a bit before it completely tanks. But with so many denying to do what's right and responsible, it's terribly scary to think about. Even such a simple thing as wearing a mask and people are already saying they'll refuse because it doesn't do any good anyways.
Just curious.......
I am in Australia.
Australia is a big place geographically but relatively small population (around 25 million)
Some states were hit worse than others - mainly the east coast states.
And restrictions have been tighter in them.
To my knowledge there have been no organised protests. and most people seem to be adhering to requirements - a few arrests for people having illegal parties and such but the overall compliance is pretty good, I think.
Incidentally our government is not encouraging mask wearing (it isnt discouraging it either) and neither does WHO.
Most people are not wearing masks - and I tend to agree with the line of thought that they dont do much for the general public.
Curve seems to be flattening in Australia as a whole - and never got to the levels of badly hit countries like Italy, US etc in first place.
My own state of South Australia was not badly hit (438 total cases, 388 recovered, 4 deaths, - which by my maths, leaves 50 active cases, 2 of whom are in ICU - in a state with total population around 1.7 million)
our new case rate is right down - 1 today, 2 yesterday, 0 for 3 consecutive days prior to that.
And that is with widespread testing - anyone with any flu like symptoms at all, no matter how mild, can get tested.
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JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Texas is supposed to start cautiously resuming some economic activities Friday. My county, Denton, now has 18 deaths from covid-19. I have been watching the deaths and counting the days between doublings. The 16th death, which was the fourth doubling, was posted this recent Saturday, with a span of 8 days from the 3rd doubling. They've been posted mostly in singles all through this time. If that rate of death, 1 per day, simply persists it will stretch the 5th doubling to 16 days. The statistically important thing is the days-between-doublings. To see that number grow is to know that the rate of death is falling and to infer that the rate of infection had fallen two weeks ago. As the state begins to resume operating, I'll keep watching my county's numbers.
Are you also watching the rate of new infections? How many days between doubling of total infections?
Where I live, very few are dying, so that's not an interesting figure to watch. The number of recoveries per day compared to the number of new infections per day is my benchmark now.0 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Texas is supposed to start cautiously resuming some economic activities Friday. My county, Denton, now has 18 deaths from covid-19. I have been watching the deaths and counting the days between doublings. The 16th death, which was the fourth doubling, was posted this recent Saturday, with a span of 8 days from the 3rd doubling. They've been posted mostly in singles all through this time. If that rate of death, 1 per day, simply persists it will stretch the 5th doubling to 16 days. The statistically important thing is the days-between-doublings. To see that number grow is to know that the rate of death is falling and to infer that the rate of infection had fallen two weeks ago. As the state begins to resume operating, I'll keep watching my county's numbers.
Are you also watching the rate of new infections? How many days between doubling of total infections?
Where I live, very few are dying, so that's not an interesting figure to watch. The number of recoveries per day compared to the number of new infections per day is my benchmark now.
The problem with using infections as a benchmark is that it’s entirely dependent on testing. It’s impossible to know whether infections are increasing because of increased testing, or falling because testing has stalled for some reason such as lack of swabs.9 -
Some people are only counting people who have a positive test followed by 2 negative tests 2 weeks apart. In other words, no one has recovered yet. Others are saying anyone who goes home from the hospital is well. But of course, there are those that go home and die at home the next day.
One friend who is on her fifth week of fever between 101 and 103 still isn’t confirmed as having corona.
Another friend has pneumonia in all 5 lobes of his lungs can’t get treated. The first Dr. told him it started with corona and there is no good treatment for corona. His test for corona came back negative. First Dr. told him the tests are faulty, it was wrong. He has corona. He was still trying to get help and calling the third Dr. last I heard.
So it’s also not very accurate to count infected.
On the news last night, a man with leukemia went to his usual hospital with symptoms he had before and they treated before. The hospital was full so they redirected him to another hospital, where they promptly sent him straight to the corona ward. He got worse and worse and was found dead the next morning, untreated for leukemia. Was he counted as a Corona death? He died in the corona ward. (Just an interesting aside, the hospital didn’t notify the family he died. The family is still trying to get info from the hospital, but they won’t talk to the family.)
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cwolfman13 wrote: »Snowflake and others, who live in other countries:
With new laws and requirements from your governments, how are your people feeling about it? Do they easily comply or balk at being forced to do certain things they don't want to do?
Here in America, it saddens and scares me to see thousands of protesters congregate over it all being unconstitutional. Not many people are using masks or certainly not social distancing during these protests. How many will needlessly suffer the ramifications of these large groups?
Businesses do need to start easing into it again so people can live and the economy can rebound a bit before it completely tanks. But with so many denying to do what's right and responsible, it's terribly scary to think about. Even such a simple thing as wearing a mask and people are already saying they'll refuse because it doesn't do any good anyways.
Just curious.......
This was one of the things I was worried about when they whole sale shuttered business. I was and still am somewhat skeptical as to whether or not that had to be done. I would have preferred other measures such as capacity limits and requiring some kind of mask or face covering to enter a business to have happened first. I'm sure it's very difficult for the guy who owns one of the local nurseries here to be shut down and not know when or if he'll ever operate again to see a parking lot full of cars at Lowes with people purchasing much of what he also sells.
At any rate, I would imagine if you polled the protesters, I would wager that many, if not most are now unemployed. When you have 20M+ people filing for unemployment and then also having difficulty getting that, you're going to start to see push back. At this point, for those people, it's not about sacrificing for the greater good...it's about self preservation. They don't know if they're going to make rent...they don't know if they will have enough money for food or to pay their utilities, etc. For these people, these concerns are now much more real and devastatingly personal than the virus. For these individuals, their economic viability is a far greater threat than the virus.
I am fortunate that my wife and I can still work and do so from home 95% of the time. The lack of social interaction is getting to us, as well as the inability to go anywhere or do anything...but that is a mild annoyance relative to wondering if we're going to foreclose on the house or if we'll be able to feed our kids, or if our utilities are going to get shut off for non payment, or how far we can stretch a buck.
You basically have two very different worlds colliding...those that can and continue to work and stay home for the greater good of the community, and those that can't work and don't know what they're going to do with self preservation as their primary concern at this point.
It is life threatening for some of them too. Out of work could mean they cannot afford medical care and prescriptions. People will die as a result. The greater good is a very complicated concept for this reason.
For me it always comes back to the original problem. The virus needed to be slowed so that healthcare could start to catch up. We can't actually save anyone's life. We can only take action to try and prevent premature death. In this case it likely that preventing some will also have a cost in human life.
This is why I always try to spot the moonwalking bear. In a complicated mess like the one we are in the virus can't be the only focal point.9 -
Another metric for those in the US, but again, dependent upon testing. https://rt.live/ This link shows graphs measuring the effective reproduction rate of the virus.0
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That is incredibly sad and very concerning. There's a lot going on here - where did this happen, and do you have a link to the article? I'd like to read it if you do.corinasue1143 wrote: »Some people are only counting people who have a positive test followed by 2 negative tests 2 weeks apart. In other words, no one has recovered yet. Others are saying anyone who goes home from the hospital is well. But of course, there are those that go home and die at home the next day.
One friend who is on her fifth week of fever between 101 and 103 still isn’t confirmed as having corona.
Another friend has pneumonia in all 5 lobes of his lungs can’t get treated. The first Dr. told him it started with corona and there is no good treatment for corona. His test for corona came back negative. First Dr. told him the tests are faulty, it was wrong. He has corona. He was still trying to get help and calling the third Dr. last I heard.
So it’s also not very accurate to count infected.
On the news last night, a man with leukemia went to his usual hospital with symptoms he had before and they treated before. The hospital was full so they redirected him to another hospital, where they promptly sent him straight to the corona ward. He got worse and worse and was found dead the next morning, untreated for leukemia. Was he counted as a Corona death? He died in the corona ward. (Just an interesting aside, the hospital didn’t notify the family he died. The family is still trying to get info from the hospital, but they won’t talk to the family.)cwolfman13 wrote: »Snowflake and others, who live in other countries:
With new laws and requirements from your governments, how are your people feeling about it? Do they easily comply or balk at being forced to do certain things they don't want to do?
Here in America, it saddens and scares me to see thousands of protesters congregate over it all being unconstitutional. Not many people are using masks or certainly not social distancing during these protests. How many will needlessly suffer the ramifications of these large groups?
Businesses do need to start easing into it again so people can live and the economy can rebound a bit before it completely tanks. But with so many denying to do what's right and responsible, it's terribly scary to think about. Even such a simple thing as wearing a mask and people are already saying they'll refuse because it doesn't do any good anyways.
Just curious.......
This was one of the things I was worried about when they whole sale shuttered business. I was and still am somewhat skeptical as to whether or not that had to be done. I would have preferred other measures such as capacity limits and requiring some kind of mask or face covering to enter a business to have happened first. I'm sure it's very difficult for the guy who owns one of the local nurseries here to be shut down and not know when or if he'll ever operate again to see a parking lot full of cars at Lowes with people purchasing much of what he also sells.
At any rate, I would imagine if you polled the protesters, I would wager that many, if not most are now unemployed. When you have 20M+ people filing for unemployment and then also having difficulty getting that, you're going to start to see push back. At this point, for those people, it's not about sacrificing for the greater good...it's about self preservation. They don't know if they're going to make rent...they don't know if they will have enough money for food or to pay their utilities, etc. For these people, these concerns are now much more real and devastatingly personal than the virus. For these individuals, their economic viability is a far greater threat than the virus.
I am fortunate that my wife and I can still work and do so from home 95% of the time. The lack of social interaction is getting to us, as well as the inability to go anywhere or do anything...but that is a mild annoyance relative to wondering if we're going to foreclose on the house or if we'll be able to feed our kids, or if our utilities are going to get shut off for non payment, or how far we can stretch a buck.
You basically have two very different worlds colliding...those that can and continue to work and stay home for the greater good of the community, and those that can't work and don't know what they're going to do with self preservation as their primary concern at this point.
It is life threatening for some of them too. Out of work could mean they cannot afford medical care and prescriptions. People will die as a result. The greater good is a very complicated concept for this reason.
For me it always comes back to the original problem. The virus needed to be slowed so that healthcare could start to catch up. We can't actually save anyone's life. We can only take action to try and prevent premature death. In this case it likely that preventing some will also have a cost in human life.
This is why I always try to spot the moonwalking bear. In a complicated mess like the one we are in the virus can't be the only focal point.
Totally agree with this sentiment. People are going to die from the virus, thanks to actions taken to stop it, some won't die of the virus, but may die due to starvation as a result of the economic impact, what if some die due to means taken to... I don't know... heat their house(?) this winter because they can't afford normal means (again, because of economic impact), or (as in @corinasue1143's example) some may die BECAUSE of actions taken to try to save lives. What if research that had been going on to cure or help with one disease was stopped to focus efforts on coronavirus and people who would have survived if the research that was halted had continued will now die? We can't know all the ramifications of our reactions to the virus. So, we're darned if we do something and darned if we don't do something. History and Psychology and Sociology fields are going to have a field day for quite a while dissecting our actions/inactions and their ramifications. My undergrad is in Psychology, and I just started a graduate program in a totally different field - which I sort of regret now, because there are so many research opportunities wrapped up in COVID19 response, and I'd love to find time to research (sorry - morbid mind-wandering).
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rheddmobile wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Texas is supposed to start cautiously resuming some economic activities Friday. My county, Denton, now has 18 deaths from covid-19. I have been watching the deaths and counting the days between doublings. The 16th death, which was the fourth doubling, was posted this recent Saturday, with a span of 8 days from the 3rd doubling. They've been posted mostly in singles all through this time. If that rate of death, 1 per day, simply persists it will stretch the 5th doubling to 16 days. The statistically important thing is the days-between-doublings. To see that number grow is to know that the rate of death is falling and to infer that the rate of infection had fallen two weeks ago. As the state begins to resume operating, I'll keep watching my county's numbers.
Are you also watching the rate of new infections? How many days between doubling of total infections?
Where I live, very few are dying, so that's not an interesting figure to watch. The number of recoveries per day compared to the number of new infections per day is my benchmark now.
The problem with using infections as a benchmark is that it’s entirely dependent on testing. It’s impossible to know whether infections are increasing because of increased testing, or falling because testing has stalled for some reason such as lack of swabs.
Yes I see your point. But I'm certainly happy to see the majority of confirmed infections here actually recovering instead of dying.2 -
rheddmobile wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Texas is supposed to start cautiously resuming some economic activities Friday. My county, Denton, now has 18 deaths from covid-19. I have been watching the deaths and counting the days between doublings. The 16th death, which was the fourth doubling, was posted this recent Saturday, with a span of 8 days from the 3rd doubling. They've been posted mostly in singles all through this time. If that rate of death, 1 per day, simply persists it will stretch the 5th doubling to 16 days. The statistically important thing is the days-between-doublings. To see that number grow is to know that the rate of death is falling and to infer that the rate of infection had fallen two weeks ago. As the state begins to resume operating, I'll keep watching my county's numbers.
Are you also watching the rate of new infections? How many days between doubling of total infections?
Where I live, very few are dying, so that's not an interesting figure to watch. The number of recoveries per day compared to the number of new infections per day is my benchmark now.
The problem with using infections as a benchmark is that it’s entirely dependent on testing. It’s impossible to know whether infections are increasing because of increased testing, or falling because testing has stalled for some reason such as lack of swabs.
Yes I see your point. But I'm certainly happy to see the majority of confirmed infections here actually recovering instead of dying.
Yes, same here. We haven't had a death in a good while, so that's not a useful metric. In our case, new infections is also not a useful metric right now because of policy changes. All drivers of trucks bringing import items are to be tested at borders and are counted toward the cases even if they were to deliver their shipment and immediately leave the country. They will also be gradually flying back tens of thousands of students who are studying abroad in the near future. These will be quarantined before they're released so although anyone who tests positive will count toward cases, they aren't really a meaningful risk.
I currently measure progress by the nature of new cases. They usually mention the number of cases daily then list the details such as if the case was imported, close contact of a known case, or unknown source of transmission. The fewer unknowns the better, in my opinion.
With lockdown being rolled back slowly, they have been increasing testing, and plan to keep increasing it the more things open up, so we might see larger numbers in the future. Our curve will not look like the typical bell curve because of all of the above.2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Texas is supposed to start cautiously resuming some economic activities Friday. My county, Denton, now has 18 deaths from covid-19. I have been watching the deaths and counting the days between doublings. The 16th death, which was the fourth doubling, was posted this recent Saturday, with a span of 8 days from the 3rd doubling. They've been posted mostly in singles all through this time. If that rate of death, 1 per day, simply persists it will stretch the 5th doubling to 16 days. The statistically important thing is the days-between-doublings. To see that number grow is to know that the rate of death is falling and to infer that the rate of infection had fallen two weeks ago. As the state begins to resume operating, I'll keep watching my county's numbers.
Are you also watching the rate of new infections? How many days between doubling of total infections?
Where I live, very few are dying, so that's not an interesting figure to watch. The number of recoveries per day compared to the number of new infections per day is my benchmark now.
The problem with using infections as a benchmark is that it’s entirely dependent on testing. It’s impossible to know whether infections are increasing because of increased testing, or falling because testing has stalled for some reason such as lack of swabs.
Yes I see your point. But I'm certainly happy to see the majority of confirmed infections here actually recovering instead of dying.
Yes, same here. We haven't had a death in a good while, so that's not a useful metric. In our case, new infections is also not a useful metric right now because of policy changes. All drivers of trucks bringing import items are to be tested at borders and are counted toward the cases even if they were to deliver their shipment and immediately leave the country. They will also be gradually flying back tens of thousands of students who are studying abroad in the near future. These will be quarantined before they're released so although anyone who tests positive will count toward cases, they aren't really a meaningful risk.
I currently measure progress by the nature of new cases. They usually mention the number of cases daily then list the details such as if the case was imported, close contact of a known case, or unknown source of transmission. The fewer unknowns the better, in my opinion.
With lockdown being rolled back slowly, they have been increasing testing, and plan to keep increasing it the more things open up, so we might see larger numbers in the future. Our curve will not look like the typical bell curve because of all of the above.
Our lovely bell curve may not continue to look like that as things increasingly open up, either. Though if the numbers are going up once we're in Level 2, we'll presumably go back into alert Level 3, depending on where those cases are coming from. We'll continue to have cases coming in from overseas in small numbers (returning NZers, who go into mandatory quarantine if they are symptomatic, or managed self-isolation if they are not).2 -
In Los Angeles County our numbers are going up (16,435 cases, 729 deaths) as our testing numbers are going up. At least more are being tested. We'll have to see day by day if the May 15 end of the stay in place will still be that date.5
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It is life threatening for some of them too. Out of work could mean they cannot afford medical care and prescriptions. People will die as a result. The greater good is a very complicated concept for this reason.cwolfman13 wrote: »Snowflake and others, who live in other countries:
With new laws and requirements from your governments, how are your people feeling about it? Do they easily comply or balk at being forced to do certain things they don't want to do?
Here in America, it saddens and scares me to see thousands of protesters congregate over it all being unconstitutional. Not many people are using masks or certainly not social distancing during these protests. How many will needlessly suffer the ramifications of these large groups?
Businesses do need to start easing into it again so people can live and the economy can rebound a bit before it completely tanks. But with so many denying to do what's right and responsible, it's terribly scary to think about. Even such a simple thing as wearing a mask and people are already saying they'll refuse because it doesn't do any good anyways.
Just curious.......
This was one of the things I was worried about when they whole sale shuttered business. I was and still am somewhat skeptical as to whether or not that had to be done. I would have preferred other measures such as capacity limits and requiring some kind of mask or face covering to enter a business to have happened first. I'm sure it's very difficult for the guy who owns one of the local nurseries here to be shut down and not know when or if he'll ever operate again to see a parking lot full of cars at Lowes with people purchasing much of what he also sells.
At any rate, I would imagine if you polled the protesters, I would wager that many, if not most are now unemployed. When you have 20M+ people filing for unemployment and then also having difficulty getting that, you're going to start to see push back. At this point, for those people, it's not about sacrificing for the greater good...it's about self preservation. They don't know if they're going to make rent...they don't know if they will have enough money for food or to pay their utilities, etc. For these people, these concerns are now much more real and devastatingly personal than the virus. For these individuals, their economic viability is a far greater threat than the virus.
I am fortunate that my wife and I can still work and do so from home 95% of the time. The lack of social interaction is getting to us, as well as the inability to go anywhere or do anything...but that is a mild annoyance relative to wondering if we're going to foreclose on the house or if we'll be able to feed our kids, or if our utilities are going to get shut off for non payment, or how far we can stretch a buck.
You basically have two very different worlds colliding...those that can and continue to work and stay home for the greater good of the community, and those that can't work and don't know what they're going to do with self preservation as their primary concern at this point.
For me it always comes back to the original problem. The virus needed to be slowed so that healthcare could start to catch up. We can't actually save anyone's life. We can only take action to try and prevent premature death. In this case it likely that preventing some will also have a cost in human life.
This is why I always try to spot the moonwalking bear. In a complicated mess like the one we are in the virus can't be the only focal point.cwolfman13 wrote: »Snowflake and others, who live in other countries:
With new laws and requirements from your governments, how are your people feeling about it? Do they easily comply or balk at being forced to do certain things they don't want to do?
Here in America, it saddens and scares me to see thousands of protesters congregate over it all being unconstitutional. Not many people are using masks or certainly not social distancing during these protests. How many will needlessly suffer the ramifications of these large groups?
Businesses do need to start easing into it again so people can live and the economy can rebound a bit before it completely tanks. But with so many denying to do what's right and responsible, it's terribly scary to think about. Even such a simple thing as wearing a mask and people are already saying they'll refuse because it doesn't do any good anyways.
Just curious.......
This was one of the things I was worried about when they whole sale shuttered business. I was and still am somewhat skeptical as to whether or not that had to be done. I would have preferred other measures such as capacity limits and requiring some kind of mask or face covering to enter a business to have happened first. I'm sure it's very difficult for the guy who owns one of the local nurseries here to be shut down and not know when or if he'll ever operate again to see a parking lot full of cars at Lowes with people purchasing much of what he also sells.
At any rate, I would imagine if you polled the protesters, I would wager that many, if not most are now unemployed. When you have 20M+ people filing for unemployment and then also having difficulty getting that, you're going to start to see push back. At this point, for those people, it's not about sacrificing for the greater good...it's about self preservation. They don't know if they're going to make rent...they don't know if they will have enough money for food or to pay their utilities, etc. For these people, these concerns are now much more real and devastatingly personal than the virus. For these individuals, their economic viability is a far greater threat than the virus.
I am fortunate that my wife and I can still work and do so from home 95% of the time. The lack of social interaction is getting to us, as well as the inability to go anywhere or do anything...but that is a mild annoyance relative to wondering if we're going to foreclose on the house or if we'll be able to feed our kids, or if our utilities are going to get shut off for non payment, or how far we can stretch a buck.
You basically have two very different worlds colliding...those that can and continue to work and stay home for the greater good of the community, and those that can't work and don't know what they're going to do with self preservation as their primary concern at this point.
It is life threatening for some of them too. Out of work could mean they cannot afford medical care and prescriptions. People will die as a result. The greater good is a very complicated concept for this reason.
For me it always comes back to the original problem. The virus needed to be slowed so that healthcare could start to catch up. We can't actually save anyone's life. We can only take action to try and prevent premature death. In this case it likely that preventing some will also have a cost in human life.
This is why I always try to spot the moonwalking bear. In a complicated mess like the one we are in the virus can't be the only focal point.
I agree, and that is, to a large extent what I was trying to convey. Also, emphasis with the virus tends to be about mortality when in reality, the measures being taken are more to slow the spread and not overwhelm the healthcare system than they are about mortality. The flue for example kills a lot of people...but it spreads over the course of an entire season so it doesn't overwhelm hospitals like this has done in a matter of months worldwide.
There isn't an easy answer...open things up too soon and you could get a huge rebound...we might get that anyway in the fall, but hopefully the HC system will have had time to ramp up for it. It's really a double edged sword no matter how you swing it. A healthy economy also needs healthy workers, and if there is a massive surge then that will be a blow as well. Another problem here in NM is that our HC system is ill equipped to handle any of this...it's pretty small and we have a lot of retired elderly here as well as a large population of at risk that require more hospitalization...in general, we are not a very physically healthy state...huge obesity problem that is greater than the national average, particularly with children. Our main hospitals are in the ABQ metro area, Santa Fe, and Las Cruces...almost half of the population needs to be taken from rural areas to one of these hospitals if there is a life threatening emergency...often by air lift. As it is, our largest growing infection areas are the numerous reservations in the state...their numbers are exploding. They don't have hospitals and all have to be moved in some manner to the greater metro areas of the state for medical treatment which is extremely taxing on our system.
It looks like we're doing phase I re-open May 15 if current trends continue in NM. This will mean more businesses will be allowed to open but still be restricted in regards to capacity and it sounds like masks are likely to be mandatory as part of the re-open. As of today, nurseries have been allowed to re-open for curbside pickup. My wife's company has been petitioning the governor to be allowed to re-open as they aren't consumer driven and don't have physical interaction with the public in any way, and they are small with less than 10 employees in this particular office...so far nothing, but it's likely they will be allowed to open on May 15.5 -
yes that is why I am confident we do have it under control in South Australia - and most other australian states.
Because very low number of new cases is not a reflection of less testing - in fact the opposite - as of a week ago, anyone with any flu like symptoms, no matter how mild, can be tested.
Of course there is the possibility of infected people not getting tested - but given high numbers of tests being done and very low numbers of community transmission, that would seem unlikely.
There is also possibility of false negatives - but I guess one has to have some trust in the system - and again very low numbers of community transmission would suggest it is extremely unlikely people are falsely testing negative - because if that were so, they would falsely be getting all clear to go to work etc - and we would see more flow on cases with no known contact cause.
Social restrictions remain in place - but not as tight as some places, including eastern states of Australia.
All incoming people , with very few exceptions, whether from overseas or interstate, must self quarnatine for 14 days.4 -
In Los Angeles County our numbers are going up (16,435 cases, 729 deaths) as our testing numbers are going up. At least more are being tested. We'll have to see day by day if the May 15 end of the stay in place will still be that date.
Yeah, same here. The numbers were staying steady, but they have been trying to increase testing (eliminated the requirement of a dr referral and also and added a bunch more sites in apparently more affected areas (South and West sides of Chicago and East St. Louis)), and the numbers jumped again. It feels really discouraging although I know increased testing is the key to being able to open up more quickly.
2049 more known cases today, and 98 more deaths. Totals (for IL) of 35,108 cases, and 1,565 deaths.
Chicago is at 14,394 and 604, with Cook County as a whole at 24,546 and 1072.
I find the differences between the numbers in various places (for example, NY and CA), even places following basically the same policies for the same amount of time intriguing, although no idea what the answers are.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »There isn't an easy answer...open things up too soon and you could get a huge rebound...we might get that anyway in the fall, but hopefully the HC system will have had time to ramp up for it. It's really a double edged sword no matter how you swing it. A healthy economy also needs healthy workers, and if there is a massive surge then that will be a blow as well.
This is one of the things that I think is being missed, at least with respect to places with significant outbreaks (which could well be everywhere absent the measures). People keep suggesting that the choice is between economic hardship and taking the precautions we are, but the evidence is that the economic hardship would have occurred anyway, due to (1) personal choices (here people weren't going to restaurants or many other activities they normally do and conventions were cancelled before the shut down, and even things like SXSW had been cancelled across the country); and (2) more rampant illness by employees interfering with business and causing personal hardships. And the stock market was certainly tanking already.
I don't know what to do, but the idea that it's all choices by state or local gov'ts killing the economy (not saying you were saying this) seems absurd to me. (And if you look at actual numbers from places that have shut down less or right before the shut downs, that also indicates that that particular narrative is false.)5 -
JustSomeEm wrote: »
That is incredibly sad and very concerning. There's a lot going on here - where did this happen, and do you have a link to the article? I'd like to read it if you do.corinasue1143 wrote: »Some people are only counting people who have a positive test followed by 2 negative tests 2 weeks apart. In other words, no one has recovered yet.
On the news last night, a man with leukemia went to his usual hospital with symptoms he had before and they treated before. The hospital was full so they redirected him to another hospital, where they promptly sent him straight to the corona ward. He got worse and worse and was found dead the next morning, untreated for leukemia. Was he counted as a Corona death? He died in the corona ward. (Just an interesting aside, the hospital didn’t notify the family he died. The family is still trying to get info from the hospital, but they won’t talk to the family.)
Oops! Non-hodgens, not leukemia.
Sorry, I don’t know how to post links, but maybe you can google it from this.
1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »There isn't an easy answer...open things up too soon and you could get a huge rebound...we might get that anyway in the fall, but hopefully the HC system will have had time to ramp up for it. It's really a double edged sword no matter how you swing it. A healthy economy also needs healthy workers, and if there is a massive surge then that will be a blow as well.
This is one of the things that I think is being missed, at least with respect to places with significant outbreaks (which could well be everywhere absent the measures). People keep suggesting that the choice is between economic hardship and taking the precautions we are, but the evidence is that the economic hardship would have occurred anyway, due to (1) personal choices (here people weren't going to restaurants or many other activities they normally do and conventions were cancelled before the shut down, and even things like SXSW had been cancelled across the country); and (2) more rampant illness by employees interfering with business and causing personal hardships. And the stock market was certainly tanking already.
I don't know what to do, but the idea that it's all choices by state or local gov'ts killing the economy (not saying you were saying this) seems absurd to me. (And if you look at actual numbers from places that have shut down less or right before the shut downs, that also indicates that that particular narrative is false.)
I think the bolded is a really good point, and it seems like it's under-appreciated by many protesting the lockdowns.
From the standpoint of preserving an overall economic system, or for that matter even individual complex-structure industries or individual businesses, a well-defined, well-understood, planned set of restrictions is IMO likely to have fewer negative consequences, and more controllable consequences, compared to a series of near-random chaotic disease outbreaks and resulting shutdowns.
It seems like there's a small case study available by looking at the consequences of the meat-packing plant coronavirus outbreak in SD, and how that's affected the company, supply chains, and the surrounding community. It's chaos. The economic impacts are awful enough at the small scale, but if one considers how it would look if that sort of thing played out widely . . . yikes.
Speaking as someone with some limited management background, I'd strongly prefer to be faced with a defined shutdown, with some government programs tailored (even suboptimally) to moderate expected impacts . . . versus "let's see who gets sick and figure out how we can work things out around that on the spur of the moment, while some of them are in the ICU and unable to contribute their effort or expertise to the response". The latter just seems insane: Like setting off random tornadoes all over the whole freakin' country, at hundreds or thousands of unplanned locations, then trying to figure out how to recover.9 -
paperpudding wrote: »yes that is why I am confident we do have it under control in South Australia - and most other australian states.
Because very low number of new cases is not a reflection of less testing - in fact the opposite - as of a week ago, anyone with any flu like symptoms, no matter how mild, can be tested.
Of course there is the possibility of infected people not getting tested - but given high numbers of tests being done and very low numbers of community transmission, that would seem unlikely.
There is also possibility of false negatives - but I guess one has to have some trust in the system - and again very low numbers of community transmission would suggest it is extremely unlikely people are falsely testing negative - because if that were so, they would falsely be getting all clear to go to work etc - and we would see more flow on cases with no known contact cause.
Social restrictions remain in place - but not as tight as some places, including eastern states of Australia.
All incoming people , with very few exceptions, whether from overseas or interstate, must self quarnatine for 14 days.
Yep, same for NZ - so much as a sniffle and you can get tested, and that will continue as restrictions lift. People are being encouraged to contact their GP or Healthline as soon as they feel unwell, because maintaining control requires identifying and isolating any new cases plus close contacts as quickly as possible.
We had a bit of a dip in numbers being tested (Australia did too), simply because there are fewer respiratory illnesses circulating due to the restrictions in place. We haven't actually had any days where full testing capacity was reached (day before yesterday was the highest, with 5289 tests processed, only 6 came back positive).
Here, we have a category of 'probable', for where a test result has come back negative, but all clinical signs point to COVID-19. So of our 1451 total, 338 are probable cases.7 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »yes that is why I am confident we do have it under control in South Australia - and most other australian states.
Because very low number of new cases is not a reflection of less testing - in fact the opposite - as of a week ago, anyone with any flu like symptoms, no matter how mild, can be tested.
Of course there is the possibility of infected people not getting tested - but given high numbers of tests being done and very low numbers of community transmission, that would seem unlikely.
There is also possibility of false negatives - but I guess one has to have some trust in the system - and again very low numbers of community transmission would suggest it is extremely unlikely people are falsely testing negative - because if that were so, they would falsely be getting all clear to go to work etc - and we would see more flow on cases with no known contact cause.
Social restrictions remain in place - but not as tight as some places, including eastern states of Australia.
All incoming people , with very few exceptions, whether from overseas or interstate, must self quarnatine for 14 days.
Yep, same for NZ - so much as a sniffle and you can get tested, and that will continue as restrictions lift. People are being encouraged to contact their GP or Healthline as soon as they feel unwell, because maintaining control requires identifying and isolating any new cases plus close contacts as quickly as possible.
We had a bit of a dip in numbers being tested (Australia did too), simply because there are fewer respiratory illnesses circulating due to the restrictions in place. We haven't actually had any days where full testing capacity was reached (day before yesterday was the highest, with 5289 tests processed, only 6 came back positive).
Here, we have a category of 'probable', for where a test result has come back negative, but all clinical signs point to COVID-19. So of our 1451 total, 338 are probable cases.
Wait. Are you saying they think the testing is not catching the Covid 19 cases, or....what does this mean? I mean, the virus is sequenced..it is or it isn't - pretty cut and dry. I don't get that "probable."
Of course, "probably" a lot of not-tested infected people and a lot who had it and recovered and never got tested.
Lots of ways this can be an majorly imperfect test system because people and chaos.
1 -
Apparently there are a number of false negatives. Ross Douthat (the conservative NYT columnist) thinks he, his wife, and his son all had it, but Ross's test came back negative and his son's inconclusive, and at that point they were on the mend so did not retest. He was discussing the false negative issue on one of the episodes of his podcast (The Argument).0
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corinasue1143 wrote: »JustSomeEm wrote: »
That is incredibly sad and very concerning. There's a lot going on here - where did this happen, and do you have a link to the article? I'd like to read it if you do.corinasue1143 wrote: »Some people are only counting people who have a positive test followed by 2 negative tests 2 weeks apart. In other words, no one has recovered yet.
On the news last night, a man with leukemia went to his usual hospital with symptoms he had before and they treated before. The hospital was full so they redirected him to another hospital, where they promptly sent him straight to the corona ward. He got worse and worse and was found dead the next morning, untreated for leukemia. Was he counted as a Corona death? He died in the corona ward. (Just an interesting aside, the hospital didn’t notify the family he died. The family is still trying to get info from the hospital, but they won’t talk to the family.)
Oops! Non-hodgens, not leukemia.
Sorry, I don’t know how to post links, but maybe you can google it from this.
Here's a link: https://kfor.com/health/coronavirus/he-did-not-deserve-to-die-like-he-did-cancer-patient-dies-in-covid-19-unit-while-family-waits-on-test/
Looks like this was a month ago, not counted as COVID. Probably not a death related to COVID either, but sad for the family.0
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