Coronavirus prep

Here, I feel like people are self-selecting out of certain forms of health care. But I've heard little about delays in essential care (beyond that self selection - by which I mean things like people who don't go to the emergency room when they have chest pain, because of Covid fears).

I have a friend in cancer treatment, and that's continuing. I had a colonoscopy a couple of weeks ago at an outpatient surgical center, and have cataract surgery coming up in a couple of weeks. A friend's husband had carpal tunnel surgery very quickly. Another friend has automimmune conditions, and her regular infusions and blood tests are happening. Generally, the scheduling for these things seems pretty normal.

I'm not saying any of those things, except the cancer treatment, are huge life-threatening things. They're just the things I have personal knowledge of . . . and the fact that they're mostly deferrable without threat to life, but happening anyway, suggests to me that probably major needs are being addressed, too. The procedures to see doctors and have surgery have changed, but the timeline seems pretty normal, here.

This is in the middle of Michigan, mid-sized city, no university hospital, but a good-sized hospital system (that alsoserves smaller surrounding communities and rural areas).

Earlier, say March/April, there was some rescheduling of less urgent medical procedures. Even then, the friend in cancer treatment continued chemotherapy. For a while then, our hospitals were reaching capacity with Covid patents, but (perhaps more importantly based on what I read/heard) having to ration PPE to the most urgent situations.

I'm not saying any of this to doubt or deprecate what others are saying about health care limitations where they are. I'm just sharing the view from where I am, in an area that still is under many sorts of public-health-related restriction orders, and with a case count that's rising again (we're above April's numbers, I believe). I am concerned about people not seeking preventiver services, with consequences that may come to roost later. I see people limiting routine health monitoring things like check-ups and blood tests. Heck, I've done some of that myself.

What do you mean by why aren't we freaking out about that number....?.?

I accept elective procedures being delayed and I accept isolation has been very difficult for some people , but I don't agree at all that more deaths have been caused by Covid fear than by Covid itself

kushiel1 wrote: »

girlwithcurls2 wrote: »

It's kind of mind-boggling that people aren't willing to give up ONE year of holidays for the good of everybody. I am grateful that I live in a place where the majority of people are taking this seriously. Living with my 24 year old daughter who has put dating and socializing on hold hasn't been easy. She is restless, lonely, bored, fed up... like the rest of us. But she's also got friends who have been exposed to the virus, and friends who have had it. She's not taking any chances. She's a smart kid, but I can't help but remind her that it's not just her, but the rest of us in the house (me, her dad, and her 17 year old sister). I hate wearing a mask. But I would imagine I would hate a ventilator more.

But if this is the last year for some of those people? I think it's mindboggling that people are voluntarily giving up opportunities to be with their families during the holidays. I can see being careful or limiting crowds - not inviting as many, maybe doing multiple ones instead, but I can't see just giving it all up. My family is going to do our regular immediate family Thanksgiving the Sunday before - so my parents, siblings and I with our kids, instead of an extended birthday party (ie my family and my husbands) we are going to just have my family (including our elderly grandmother so she doesn't miss it) together for cake. But with my sister diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer that has spread I'm not willing to pass up the holidays with her - will I be cautious? ABSOLUTELY. But I'm also not going to not see her knowing this could very well be the last Christmas with her or even with my elderly grandmother either. We aren't guaranteed tomorrow or next year, we shouldn't throw away opportunities over a virus that the vast majority of people survive.

I had a terrible car accident one year because I thought I "had to" get home for holidays and took to the roads in rain and fog. If it weren't for the car that took me out, my little car would have gone under an 18-wheeler. I could have missed decades of holidays because I thought that getting home outweighed the extra risk of traveling in that weather. For the people for whom it might be the last year, think of all the years they've already had, and all the months or possibly years (not sure if you're saying it could be their last just because they're older or because they have a terminal diagnosis) they could miss if someone brings COVID to the holiday dinner -- and how sadly alone they'll have to die if they from COVID.

kushiel1 wrote: »

Some of the issue was that if you already had a cancer diagnosis you could continue treatment, but if you didn't...you were often deferred because "elective" procedures (such as diagnostics) were not being done. Or you couldn't get in to see that specialist because of Covid restrictions.

The restrictions even now on visitation in hospitals (because of course it makes sense for a sick person to be alone for 20 hours of the day....) are ridiculous. Or if you are in the ED you can't have anyone with you.

In general I agree with the poster above who pointed out that not only health screenings are being put off but the incidents of abuse, suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, etc are all on the rise. I read a statistic recently that said that the US is up 300,000 deaths from where they thought we'd be (I could be wrong in my remembering honestly) if 200k of those are covid the other 100k is covid related in some form probably - why aren't we freaking out about that number?

Covid fear is killing more people (or at least harming them in irrevocable ways) than Covid itself is. The cure for the disease can NOT be worse than the disease itself and we are heading that way at this point though I fear we are already there.

Some of those excess 100,000 deaths are almost certainly undiagnosed covid deaths, given how difficult it has been to get tested in most places in the U.S. for much of the time this pandemic has been going on. I'd want to know how many excess respiratory and organ shutdown deaths there have that weren't attributed to a specific disease through testing.

And there are also many people who, so far as we know, may be being harmed in irrecovable ways from COVID (we simply can't know whether folks who are still suffering extreme fatigue, "brain fog" that leaves them unable to work, shortness of breath that leaves them unable to live the lives they were living before, etc. will ever recover -- we just don't have the data on a novel virus).

I don't think the public policy response has been perfect in choosing what needs to be shut down and how much and how long, but I think we would all be in a better position and have better options if last Easter, last Memorial Day, last Independence Day, last Labor Day, so many people hadn't felt like they just couldn't give up large gatherings, often indoors, often unmasked.

lemurcat2 wrote: »

kimny72 wrote: »

stevehenderson776 wrote: »

gracegettingittogether wrote: »

Yes, it is. There are also many people dying because they aren’t able to get the care they need for their chronic diseases because of hospitals closing because of stopping non emergency procedures. It does make me angry when people say it’s all worth it, if it saves one life...one life from COVID that is. Do all the other lives lost from canceled cancer screenings, inability to book needed scheduled procedures, suicides, overdosing from depression and anxiety due to isolation and inability to get to mental health groups just not count them? Why not? Are their lives not as important just because they don’t have the ‘in’ disease?
The thing is in medicine, there’s almost always side effects. But somehow, that doesn’t seem to apply because it’s been overtaken by politics, which doesn’t like nuances. It’s called the art of medicine precisely because there are nuances! People die when we ignore that.

Yeah. Surgery cancellations and suspensions have been an issue here. Wait times were already on the ridiculous side for certain procedures and now they're getting outrageous. Grandma needs a new knee so she won't have to live every waking moment in pain? Tough titties. Try again in a year or two. Here's a morphine addiction to tide her over.
Hell, even routine lab work is backed up a mile.

This sort of thing must be very localized, because I've heard about problems like that online, but I know people in a NYC suburb, OH, and WA who are getting medical procedures as per usual, and here in VA routine appts, screenings, surgeries etc with no issue. I guess it depends how developed and we'll staffed the healthcare industry in your area is.

Now that I think about it, all of the areas i mentioned are in close proximity to universities and university hospitals. I'd bet that factors in.

Yeah, people here are getting medical procedures per usual too. In fact, since I knew they had been deferring non emergency stuff at first (we were at risk of getting overrun), I checked, and non emergency surgeries and such have been permitted since May.

Sometimes I think the claims about a "shut down" still going on aren't in line with the actual realities of what is open and what is not. But it's localized.

I know some people who complain about the "shutdown" while browsing the housewares section in Walmart after hitting the farmers market and having lunch with friends at a local restaurant with socially distanced 25% capacity in their dining room. There were 11,000 fans at the World Series game tonight. At least in the US, it's not illegal to put on a mask and hang out with family or friends on the porch or even inside for a bit. (Unless of course they're in a nursing home or some other facility with stringent rules).

As someone who lives alone and is now working remotely, it does get isolating. And as an introvert with social anxiety, it's even harder for me now than it used to be to get myself ready and get out of the apartment to break that isolation. So I get that for some people, that can get dangerous. And I'm sure domestic violence issues are heightened right now and I don't think there's an easy answer to that.

Is the suggestion that people are intentionally over isolating out of fear of covid, and subsequently dying of other medical conditions or becoming suicidal? If that's the case, I don't know how you fix that. Covid can make you very sick and for some even kill you, and we have no idea what the long term consequences of infection even are. I'd guess any time there is a new danger in the news - disease, terrorists, a local crime wave, any new danger - some people over react and suffer because of it. We can't just ignore a threat to keep that from happening. I feel like there's been a ton of outreach promoting that medical care is safe and counseling is available, but obviously that's not going to work for everyone in this situation.

lynn_glenmont wrote: »

kushiel1 wrote: »

girlwithcurls2 wrote: »

It's kind of mind-boggling that people aren't willing to give up ONE year of holidays for the good of everybody. I am grateful that I live in a place where the majority of people are taking this seriously. Living with my 24 year old daughter who has put dating and socializing on hold hasn't been easy. She is restless, lonely, bored, fed up... like the rest of us. But she's also got friends who have been exposed to the virus, and friends who have had it. She's not taking any chances. She's a smart kid, but I can't help but remind her that it's not just her, but the rest of us in the house (me, her dad, and her 17 year old sister). I hate wearing a mask. But I would imagine I would hate a ventilator more.

But if this is the last year for some of those people? I think it's mindboggling that people are voluntarily giving up opportunities to be with their families during the holidays. I can see being careful or limiting crowds - not inviting as many, maybe doing multiple ones instead, but I can't see just giving it all up. My family is going to do our regular immediate family Thanksgiving the Sunday before - so my parents, siblings and I with our kids, instead of an extended birthday party (ie my family and my husbands) we are going to just have my family (including our elderly grandmother so she doesn't miss it) together for cake. But with my sister diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer that has spread I'm not willing to pass up the holidays with her - will I be cautious? ABSOLUTELY. But I'm also not going to not see her knowing this could very well be the last Christmas with her or even with my elderly grandmother either. We aren't guaranteed tomorrow or next year, we shouldn't throw away opportunities over a virus that the vast majority of people survive.

I had a terrible car accident one year because I thought I "had to" get home for holidays and took to the roads in rain and fog. If it weren't for the car that took me out, my little car would have gone under an 18-wheeler. I could have missed decades of holidays because I thought that getting home outweighed the extra risk of traveling in that weather. For the people for whom it might be the last year, think of all the years they've already had, and all the months or possibly years (not sure if you're saying it could be their last just because they're older or because they have a terminal diagnosis) they could miss if someone brings COVID to the holiday dinner -- and how sadly alone they'll have to die if they from COVID.

The thing is nobody knows what time they have left. Yes, you could die tomorrow or 30 years from now. There is always that wish for next time, the next Christmas, etc. but it's never a given. As sad as it is to think about, I have a feeling our holidays are going to be very quiet this year. And if so, it'll be the first year we haven't had all our adult children home here with us. Last year was so special, all 3 kids stayed over for a few days. It was crowded, busy, stressful, we were all under foot but it felt like home again. This year, my youngest dd and her bf were going to come home, flying all the way from Seattle to New England. But we all video chatted a week ago and they were testing our reactions to see how we felt about them staying there. My priority is everyone stay healthy, my 2nd priority is nobody is alone. Our other dd lives in N.C., another flyer. But she lives by herself so I don't know what her options would be. She does have friends but inviting someone to their home for family holidays might not happen for her. IDK. Our ds lives across the state so perhaps we'd see him.

Right now, all I can feel is this year has been a major bust in so many ways. I usually try to see the cup as half-full but at the moment, that damn cup feels pretty empty. My sister has a dilemma with her dh. He's still in the hospital(very late stage Alzheimers and broke his hip a week ago then went through surgery), was going to go to the rehab center for a few days, then home but when she found out there is no visitation except via window, she's now able to keep him in the hospital in a 'swing bed' care situation then the plan is to bring him home Monday. And her situation is another whole depressing stressful life event we're trying to deal with. She cannot let herself let him go; she's a mess, beating herself up for everything, not looking forward to realize she'll still have a life and I'm watching her go through all this; I have lost most of my ability to cope with anything else right now.

Argh.

gracegettingittogether wrote: »

I wish there were more acknowledgement of diseases and conditions that have a far higher risk factor of death during this pandemic. My 94 year old grandmother died alone in a nursing home in the middle of this, not having been able to see her family for 6 weeks. We saw her through the window and talked in the phone, but she was always a very touchy feely person and even before the pandemic felt the lack of touch even we frequently visited her. Remember, infants can actually die from lack of touch. It affects adults profoundly too. She died in her sleep not from COVID, having largely lost the will to live, while being so isolated with no end in sight.
My father has advanced Alzheimer’s and truly suffered from the initial isolation. He couldn’t understand why we all abandoned him in his eyes, refused to hug him and wore masks, which terrify him. Finally my mother put her foot down and said she wasn’t going to waste the little time he has left, making him feel scared and abandoned. How horrible we would feel if that’s the way his life ended in fear and loneliness.
What about special needs kids who aren’t getting the therapy they so desperately need in person? Each year is critical for them, having lost it, they can’t regain ground and will suffer for a long time because of this.
There’s also a risk in driving yet people choose to take that risk every day.
I wish there were more acknowledgement of the nuances of this situation. Full disclosure, my brother in law is a hospital physician who works every day with COVID patients in two different hospitals. He is really annoyed at how people are freaking out so much about COVID while ignoring how much people are affected who suffer from other diseases that are barely acknowledged.
There’s a lot of politics involved.

My sister is still getting her therapy. If we all do our part in avoiding UNNECESSARY contact, then it makes it much safer for everyone who still needs to see specialists or meet other needs during this time.

I'm not advocating that anyone skip therapy or medical treatments.

People who suffer from other diseases are often at a higher risk for COVID complications or even death. Stressing the role all of us play in preventing the spread of COVID is the opposite of ignoring these people. Absolutely nothing is better for those with chronic illnesses or conditions if they're at higher risk for getting COVID on top of it.

I agree with what @jenilla1 said about the "old days" when people didn't travel that much. We lived about 200 miles from my grandparents & extended family, so we only saw them about every 1-2 years. My dh on the other hand had multiple grandparents, aunts, uncles, & cousins that all lived within about a 20 mile radius, so they saw each other frequently. I think this gives us a different perspective on what is necessary or not. I think I am a little more hesitant right now for close contact, although before Covid I was probably a "Mama Bear" that wanted everyone close. It is hard.

lynn_glenmont wrote: »

kushiel1 wrote: »

Some of the issue was that if you already had a cancer diagnosis you could continue treatment, but if you didn't...you were often deferred because "elective" procedures (such as diagnostics) were not being done. Or you couldn't get in to see that specialist because of Covid restrictions.

The restrictions even now on visitation in hospitals (because of course it makes sense for a sick person to be alone for 20 hours of the day....) are ridiculous. Or if you are in the ED you can't have anyone with you.

In general I agree with the poster above who pointed out that not only health screenings are being put off but the incidents of abuse, suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, etc are all on the rise. I read a statistic recently that said that the US is up 300,000 deaths from where they thought we'd be (I could be wrong in my remembering honestly) if 200k of those are covid the other 100k is covid related in some form probably - why aren't we freaking out about that number?

Covid fear is killing more people (or at least harming them in irrevocable ways) than Covid itself is. The cure for the disease can NOT be worse than the disease itself and we are heading that way at this point though I fear we are already there.

Some of those excess 100,000 deaths are almost certainly undiagnosed covid deaths, given how difficult it has been to get tested in most places in the U.S. for much of the time this pandemic has been going on. I'd want to know how many excess respiratory and organ shutdown deaths there have that weren't attributed to a specific disease through testing.

And there are also many people who, so far as we know, may be being harmed in irrecovable ways from COVID (we simply can't know whether folks who are still suffering extreme fatigue, "brain fog" that leaves them unable to work, shortness of breath that leaves them unable to live the lives they were living before, etc. will ever recover -- we just don't have the data on a novel virus).

I don't think the public policy response has been perfect in choosing what needs to be shut down and how much and how long, but I think we would all be in a better position and have better options if last Easter, last Memorial Day, last Independence Day, last Labor Day, so many people hadn't felt like they just couldn't give up large gatherings, often indoors, often unmasked.

I found some news coverage of the CDC report citing 300,000 excess deaths during the pandemic period in the U.S., and apparently they attribute it to people who, out of fear of covid, have not sought medical care for emergent issues such as heart attacks. That's not really a policy shut-down problem, and would likely only be exacerbated if policies such as masking, social distancing, limiting building and venue capacities, and, yes, even shut-downs were not implemented, because not having such policies (assuming even marginal compliance) would lead to more cases, more deaths, more fear, and more decisions by individuals to delay seeking treatment.

During the pandemic I have only been to a medical provider once, for a sudden-onset condition that seemed unlikely to be life-threatening, but could potentially have threatened my vision. I had no problem getting in to see my provider, and their office seemed reasonably busy, and there were safety protocols (including required masks) in place. Would I have been more hesitant to seek treatment if this had happened when cases were surging in my area, rather than at a time when they were falling? Possibly, maybe even probably.

SuzySunshine99 wrote: »

kushiel1 wrote: »

girlwithcurls2 wrote: »

I live within 3 miles of five sisters and their families, as well as my elderly parents. But, my risk of getting or giving them the virus is the same as if we were strangers. I totally understand how one family's needs might be different than my own, but for MY family, we are OK giving this up. I have seen my parents a handful of times, outside, at a distance. To think I may have given one of them their last hug is heartbreaking. I'm also "watching the numbers" and following the trends-gyms, bars/restaurants, and small indoor gatherings, typically family parties. I'd never, ever forgive myself if I hosted an event that spread this through my family.

But (legit question) will you forgive yourself if they should pass and you didn't see them/spend time with them while they were here? Is it really worth the heartache of not being around family if something should happen to them? I'd personally find it cold comfort that hey at least I didn't give them covid! Not making light of the fact that some people have concerns about covid and that some people are more likely to die from getting it but to me all the things we are giving up or being asked to give up is worse than the disease or risk of disease.

I couldn't forgive myself if I gave COVID to one of my high-risk family members and they got very ill or died.
If they died of other causes, I would still have all the many, many years of celebrations and holidays to remember.
It would not weigh on me that I didn't see them for their "last one".
For me, it is not worth the risk.

The same here and well said!

kimny72 wrote: »

stevehenderson776 wrote: »

gracegettingittogether wrote: »

Yes, it is. There are also many people dying because they aren’t able to get the care they need for their chronic diseases because of hospitals closing because of stopping non emergency procedures. It does make me angry when people say it’s all worth it, if it saves one life...one life from COVID that is. Do all the other lives lost from canceled cancer screenings, inability to book needed scheduled procedures, suicides, overdosing from depression and anxiety due to isolation and inability to get to mental health groups just not count them? Why not? Are their lives not as important just because they don’t have the ‘in’ disease?
The thing is in medicine, there’s almost always side effects. But somehow, that doesn’t seem to apply because it’s been overtaken by politics, which doesn’t like nuances. It’s called the art of medicine precisely because there are nuances! People die when we ignore that.

Yeah. Surgery cancellations and suspensions have been an issue here. Wait times were already on the ridiculous side for certain procedures and now they're getting outrageous. Grandma needs a new knee so she won't have to live every waking moment in pain? Tough titties. Try again in a year or two. Here's a morphine addiction to tide her over.
Hell, even routine lab work is backed up a mile.

This sort of thing must be very localized, because I've heard about problems like that online, but I know people in a NYC suburb, OH, and WA who are getting medical procedures as per usual, and here in VA routine appts, screenings, surgeries etc with no issue. I guess it depends how developed and we'll staffed the healthcare industry in your area is.

Now that I think about it, all of the areas i mentioned are in close proximity to universities and university hospitals. I'd bet that factors in.

I don't live near a university or university hospitals; however, I didn't have a problem accessing treatments. Actually, it was encouraged by my health insurance and the HMO that manages it. Maybe because I am a Medicare recipient, or maybe because some cities, counties or states prioritize medical care in a different way.

I got my Dexa and mammogram appointments this year without delays or a fuss. I had a wrist fracture in February, right in the middle of the first COVID wave, but I had appointments with the orthopedic doctor, got X Rays, and PT sessions without problems. The same with my dental and eye doctor visits, including my ENT yearly check-up.

On the other hand, I heard from friends and acquaintance that they were delaying doctors and dental visits or treatments because they were afraid of catching COVID at their offices. I personally feel safer in a medical building than in the supermarket. I go to the doctors but I use Instacart for food shopping.

Maybe it is not the health system's fault, but the fear of the patients what is doing the damage.

RetiredAndLovingIt wrote: »

I agree with what @jenilla1 said about the "old days" when people didn't travel that much. We lived about 200 miles from my grandparents & extended family, so we only saw them about every 1-2 years. My dh on the other hand had multiple grandparents, aunts, uncles, & cousins that all lived within about a 20 mile radius, so they saw each other frequently. I think this gives us a different perspective on what is necessary or not. I think I am a little more hesitant right now for close contact, although before Covid I was probably a "Mama Bear" that wanted everyone close. It is hard.

It's tempting to think - for an old curmudgeon like myself - that culturally we've just become used to quick gratification, not deferring gratification of our wishes. OTOH, from what I've read about the 1918 flu pandemic, people weren't appreciably better behaved than now, though the specific unhelpful behaviors differed.

I do think that we're both challenged by the commonness these days of immediate family being scattered over by distances, and spoiled by the relative ease and speed of traveling to be with them. Growing up (b.1955), most of my cousins were within that 20 mile or so radius, but their children are now all over the US, and a few international . . . but most see each other regularly. By contrast, when my grandmother left her family in Sweden back around the start of the 1900s at age 18, it was decades before she saw her siblings again. We have different expectations.

Redordeadhead wrote: »

girlwithcurls2 wrote: »

It's kind of mind-boggling that people aren't willing to give up ONE year of holidays for the good of everybody. I am grateful that I live in a place where the majority of people are taking this seriously. Living with my 24 year old daughter who has put dating and socializing on hold hasn't been easy. She is restless, lonely, bored, fed up... like the rest of us. But she's also got friends who have been exposed to the virus, and friends who have had it. She's not taking any chances. She's a smart kid, but I can't help but remind her that it's not just her, but the rest of us in the house (me, her dad, and her 17 year old sister). I hate wearing a mask. But I would imagine I would hate a ventilator more.

I understand your point, but it sounds like you are lucky enough to live with your family. For those living alone, or separated from their parents or children, it's tough to imagine not seeing them for months or even a year.

I think it's difficult for any of us to have full empathy for others differently situated. I do try to empathize with people not seeing distant children or parents, but it is a bit of an abstraction. And I'm sure that it's different if one has an immediate family in-house, vs. a solo household with distant family. Rhere are also some different issues for those of us who are truly familialy alone, issues not on others' radar screen. For someone like me (no parents, children, siblings, spouse now), any relationships we do have tend to require more fostering and tending, because there aren't blood ties. I'll be comfortably spending the holidays alone, but aware that that makes future holidays more likely to be solo, too.

I'm not whining or complaining. Kind of the reverse intent, actually: There are degrees and flavors of "lucky", with different pros and cons. This is difficult in different ways for nearly everyone. Yeah, it's mind-boggling and tough to imagine . . . all the way around.