Coronavirus prep
Replies
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »
How do you think that? Scofflaw?Theoldguy1 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha
Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.
So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?
Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.
I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.
Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.
I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?
Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.
No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.
Does the concept of a "State of Emergency" exist in American law? A provision where emergency powers can be triggered to allow for the authorities to take certain enforcement actions that wouldn't be normal if the emergency didn't exist? Many countries around the world have declared the COVID19 crisis as an emergency in that sense.
More or less, yes, the concept exists.
USA/Michigan, governor tried to do pretty much that, got sued by the Legislature (controlled by opposing political party); state supreme court ruled she'd exceeded her authority; US President Twitter-scolded her for over-reaching and repeatedly criticized her at his rallies; group of a dozen or so dudes plotted to kidnap her, put her on trial and possibly execute her for treason (or leave her on a boat in the middle of Lake Michigan, depending on which conspirator's plan won out), but were found out when they tried to acquire explosives to blow up a bridge as a distraction - some of them are now out on bail after being charged.
The above is not a political opinion. It's a set of facts, fairly neutrally stated. I don't have to make stuff up.
I'm quoting myself here because I don't want to pick a point to reply to an interpersonal back and forth here . . .
. . . but I do see some of this nonsense as people being under stress and acting out. Even in my immediate circle of acquaintances, I see people who would normally be able to maintain a *semblance* of normal thought and behavior, but who are under stress from the pandemic (isolation, unacknowledged fear, rejection of the reality of the bad things happening, etc.) but not IMO very able to acknowledge their own anxiety, so externalizing it into Q-Anon or other extremes. Population-wide, we're seeing more drug abuse, violence (domestic, public) among people who'd normally be able to *sort of* maintain less extreme behavior to stay within the social fold.
The stress, and an inability to acknowledge and accept the stress and relative powerlessness against it, IMO leads to acting out.
In the Michigan scenario in particular, some of these guys would probably (in quieter times) stock their bunkers with survival foods, act a little eccentric in public (maybe) at the local tavern, make common cause with like-minded others . . . but not hatch actual plots to kidnap and kill the governor.
People on the edge, in happy times, stay near or on the edge. In times like these, they get pushed over the edge.
Just my opinions.
ETA: Those of us less close to the edge . . . it's common (not universal), isn't it, to be stress eating, drinking a bit more than usual, . . . ? I see myself acting out, in various ways, but I'm not as stressed as some by the pandemic, and not as close to the edge at the start . . . I think. 😆9 -
So reporting on Halloween, I saw that at least one of my neighbors did the candy shooter set up. I went with bowl of candy outside, sign saying take one or two. Most of the earlier kids were with parents, and the parents were saying "just take one," and generally they were all being respectful of the sign until I heard some crazy giggling from some slightly older girls around 7 and checked and indeed they'd taken much of what was left.
I had extra candy (I always buy too much), so didn't really mind, and just refilled. As it's now about 8, it seems to be mostly or entirely over, and I think I actually got quite a few more kids than last year (but last year we had tons of snow and also I missed the beginning since I wasn't home from work yet).
It's more fun to be able to see the kids and give the candy out in person, but I could hear them and it was nice they got to do a Halloween of some sort.9 -
So reporting on Halloween, I saw that at least one of my neighbors did the candy shooter set up. I went with bowl of candy outside, sign saying take one or two. Most of the earlier kids were with parents, and the parents were saying "just take one," and generally they were all being respectful of the sign until I heard some crazy giggling from some slightly older girls around 7 and checked and indeed they'd taken much of what was left.
I had extra candy (I always buy too much), so didn't really mind, and just refilled. As it's now about 8, it seems to be mostly or entirely over, and I think I actually got quite a few more kids than last year (but last year we had tons of snow and also I missed the beginning since I wasn't home from work yet).
It's more fun to be able to see the kids and give the candy out in person, but I could hear them and it was nice they got to do a Halloween of some sort.
We normally get between 30 and 50 kids, depending on the weather. I put out about 15 little treat bags of mini candies on a tray on a folding table, partially because I figured there'd be fewer kids this year, but also because that was all that would fit on the tray and all that I had finished making into bags by dusk.
I put a sign on the table saying "take one -- if you dare!" because I had fake hairy spiders decorating the table. I only heard one group go by talking and laughing -- sounded like three or four at the most. When I went out to refill at 8 with the rest of the bags I had filled in the meantime, it looked like 10 or 12 bags were gone -- so either some kids came by very quietly or somebody took more than their share. But some of them take more than their share when they knock on the door -- I try to dole out one or two candies, depending on if they're full size or snack size (or three or four candies as the evening goes on and it looks like I may end up with leftovers), and some kids just stick their hands in the bowl I'm doling out from.
I went out and checked and it looks like nobody has come by in the past hour. I'll give them another half hour or so and bring the table and leftover candy in.
I like seeing the kids in their costumes and giving the candy out in person, too, but frankly most of them are so ... I don't know what to call it. It's not rude exactly. But they won't engage at all. Most of them don't even say trick or treat anymore. They just knock and hold their bags or plastic jack-o-lanterns or pillowcases out, or grab the candy from the bowl. If I say "Happy Halloween" and make a comment or compliment or ask a question about their costumes, most of them don't respond. I don't see how it can bee a "don't talk to strangers" issue when you're OK with letting your kids knock on my door and take candy from me.
I get that a three or four year old might be too shy, or, in my neighborhood, there might even be a language barrier with the pre-schoolers, but when a 10-year-old can't be bothered to say trick or treat or happy halloween or even hi, and can't even say thank you for the candy or thank you if I tell them how scary or cute or realistic or whatever their costume is ... It starts to feel like I'm just being held up for some candy.
Which is OK, I guess, but I may just do the candy out in the bowl again next year even if we're not having a pandemic, because this was a lot easier. And I like the process of filling the little bags. And when Halloween is on a weekday, they start coming around before I'm even done working for the day.
If it hadn't been for the pandemic, I would have taken advantage of it being on the weekend to put on some scary show for the kids, like my dad and I did a few times when I outgrew trick or treating, and I've done a few times since he died.4 -
Here's the outcome of the lawsuit I posted about previously by a voter who felt his rights were violated by being required to put on a mask at a polling place or leave (he was arrested initially for trespassing because he wouldn't leave or vote outside, and then charged subsequently with violating requirements by the governor for wearing masks at polling places):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/harford-mask-lawsuit-dismissed/2020/10/30/e6c56cb2-1adc-11eb-befb-8864259bd2d8_story.html
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So reporting on Halloween, I saw that at least one of my neighbors did the candy shooter set up. I went with bowl of candy outside, sign saying take one or two. Most of the earlier kids were with parents, and the parents were saying "just take one," and generally they were all being respectful of the sign until I heard some crazy giggling from some slightly older girls around 7 and checked and indeed they'd taken much of what was left.
I had extra candy (I always buy too much), so didn't really mind, and just refilled. As it's now about 8, it seems to be mostly or entirely over, and I think I actually got quite a few more kids than last year (but last year we had tons of snow and also I missed the beginning since I wasn't home from work yet).
It's more fun to be able to see the kids and give the candy out in person, but I could hear them and it was nice they got to do a Halloween of some sort.
Curious why this basic report got a disagree. Would respect much more someone who admitted and explained.2 -
So reporting on Halloween, I saw that at least one of my neighbors did the candy shooter set up. I went with bowl of candy outside, sign saying take one or two. Most of the earlier kids were with parents, and the parents were saying "just take one," and generally they were all being respectful of the sign until I heard some crazy giggling from some slightly older girls around 7 and checked and indeed they'd taken much of what was left.
I had extra candy (I always buy too much), so didn't really mind, and just refilled. As it's now about 8, it seems to be mostly or entirely over, and I think I actually got quite a few more kids than last year (but last year we had tons of snow and also I missed the beginning since I wasn't home from work yet).
It's more fun to be able to see the kids and give the candy out in person, but I could hear them and it was nice they got to do a Halloween of some sort.
Curious why this basic report got a disagree. Would respect much more someone who admitted and explained.
I just figure a certain percentage of disagrees are accidents from people scrolling in the app, and a certain percentage are people who didn't like something you said in a different post and now they're just disagreeing any time you post.
It's not worth worrying about.
I so hope we don't HAVE to do Halloween this way next year, even if I end up deciding it's easier on a weeknight. I'm starting to get a little pessimistic about how long this thing is going to last.4 -
We didn’t get any trick or treaters, and we usually get a couple hundred. We set out a table with candy bags, and got one neighbor child who we specifically invited when we saw him setting out bags in front of his own house, and at 9 pm we took our candy over to another neighbor who was having a party for her children and their cousins.
There were lots of loud vehicles out, the dogs in the neighborhood were being driven crazy. I could hear people drag racing on the overpass. I guess drag racing is socially distant.5 -
I stood outside at a table in the driveway for two hours this evening. Temp started at 34 and was 30 by the time I went in. Only had 46 kids (last year was 78 and not a weekend). Every kid was masked and with some adult supervision. Most wished the Happy Halloween, but if not, were reminded by their parents. The parents were also very nice and thanked for the goodies for their kids. On the other hand, when I headed back in, I saw a hometown facebook post from someone who put out 60 goodies bags and they were all swiped by the "older" first kids who came by. Sad that there are those (in this case kids) that cannot see beyond their own greed.6
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All I’m going to say about Halloween is that there will, more than likely, be an uptick in cases of covid as a result.
More than anything, the containment of the virus in island nations, ie:Australia & New Zealand, has to do with clear policies from leadership, right from the beginning, than anything else. The increase in cases in the UK & EU (the US hasn’t seemed to have ever have left the first wave) is more than likely from lifting restrictions, people congregating in large groups, and colder weather driving more people indoors. Non compliance with face coverings and social distancing. Perhaps the sparsely populated island nations of Australia & New Zealand, have a slight advantage over the much more densely populated US, UK, & EU, just from sheer numbers of people. 🤷🏻♀️
Just the other day I read of an incidence in NY where several people have been sited for 400 people being together with no social distancing and very few having face coverings.
I can’t understand how people can’t see how this is being spread. Some of this could be avoided by following basic guidelines. It’s not difficult, maybe frustrating, but worth the little inconvenience to possibly prevent someone else getting this virus. Perhaps your loved one or friend.4 -
missysippy930 wrote: »All I’m going to say about Halloween is that there will, more than likely, be an uptick in cases of covid as a result.
More than anything, the containment of the virus in island nations, ie:Australia & New Zealand, has to do with clear policies from leadership, right from the beginning, than anything else. The increase in cases in the UK & EU (the US hasn’t seemed to have ever have left the first wave) is more than likely from lifting restrictions, people congregating in large groups, and colder weather driving more people indoors. Non compliance with face coverings and social distancing. Perhaps the sparsely populated island nations of Australia & New Zealand, have a slight advantage over the much more densely populated US, UK, & EU, just from sheer numbers of people. 🤷🏻♀️
Just the other day I read of an incidence in NY where several people have been sited for 400 people being together with no social distancing and very few having face coverings.
I can’t understand how people can’t see how this is being spread. Some of this could be avoided by following basic guidelines. It’s not difficult, maybe frustrating, but worth the little inconvenience to possibly prevent someone else getting this virus. Perhaps your loved one or friend.
We had an article in the local paper that said contact tracers believe most local clusters are driven by youth sports at the moment, then family gatherings with the children who play school sports and extended family members. Everyone believes they somehow magically won’t give it to family.8 -
So reporting on Halloween, I saw that at least one of my neighbors did the candy shooter set up. I went with bowl of candy outside, sign saying take one or two. Most of the earlier kids were with parents, and the parents were saying "just take one," and generally they were all being respectful of the sign until I heard some crazy giggling from some slightly older girls around 7 and checked and indeed they'd taken much of what was left.
I had extra candy (I always buy too much), so didn't really mind, and just refilled. As it's now about 8, it seems to be mostly or entirely over, and I think I actually got quite a few more kids than last year (but last year we had tons of snow and also I missed the beginning since I wasn't home from work yet).
It's more fun to be able to see the kids and give the candy out in person, but I could hear them and it was nice they got to do a Halloween of some sort.
I've done this in past years (when I lived in SW Iowa) and the entire bowl is empty in minutes from likely only a few kids. I don't watch it, but will go check on it every 5-10 min. and after refilling every time (but not enough kids to even spot one when going outside), I just gave up for future years. At one point, some kid threw the bowl across the yard... I assume they were upset it was empty already, but maybe it was the same one who took all the candy left in it, then threw across the yard after emptying it. While I think it was trick or treaters, there was a meth head family with several poorly behaved kids (probably all crack babies) across the street, so maybe it was them. Either way, I won't do candy for Halloween anymore. I don't like kids anyway and don't care to see them parade through with costumes. My effort to still try to be a good neighbor failed. So I'll just be the grinch of Halloween.9 -
Good morning, y'all!
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Stay Frosty, folks.
JustSomeEm9 -
Some context from a Melbourne (Australia) doctor who has been integral in their Covid experience for many months:
“What did Melbourne, Australia do to get our covid numbers down from 700+ a day to zero in the last 48h?
Here’s a list:
5km travelling limit
1 hour outside the home
Leave home only for essential work, essential activities, medical, care, health/exercise reasons.
Curfew 8pm-5am
Schools online.
Schools open for vulnerable kids or those whose parents are essential workers.
All activities online.
No social gatherings, except for funerals, etc.
Reduced hospital activities.
Pre-operative swab for all operations.
Operating theatres at 50% capacity plus emergencies.
Splitting of teams.
All meetings online.
No retail. Essential retail only (medicine, building maintenance, etc)
What did we learn? People got creative:
Zoom health classes.
Zoom parties.
Online cooking classes.
Restaurant take outs and deliveries.
Restaurant home cooking classes.
Strong community response:
Faith communities buying groceries for people.
Charity organisations feeding immigrants and international students.
Increased courier and logistics industry.
Changed hospital admission profile:
We had much less admission for bronchiolitis, pneumonia, middle ear disease complications, trauma, etc.
Yes I note there is increased mental health and domestic violence presentations.
No increase in rate of suicide. I need to underline this as there are claims that suicide is increased. But our suicide numbers from the State Coroner has remained stable.
Changes in the way we interact at work. It makes us realise that there is an inherent resilience in people and of course we all did what we can to help.
My patients are all understanding of every change that happens to hospital regulations”.
Melbourne’s 6.4 million population ‘only’ peaked in numbers at 700...and these are the things they put in place for the last 7 months to bring numbers down to zero new for the last 2 days. For the most part, everyone complied with the rules and it has been overwhelmingly successful despite massive ‘inconvenience’.9 -
RE: Island comments.
I'm not suggesting that being an island is the silver bullet. But it's a buff to your efforts, to borrow some RPG terminology. A nation must still do lots of other things. But defending a set of discrete points (airports, ports) is relatively easier than long, contiguous, possibly porous borders.
Another factor working decidedly against us here in the US is our sheer size and heterogeneity. In the spring, people where I live (Appalachia) could say, "Oh, that's a NY thing." In the summer surge, it was "Oh, that's a CA/AZ/TX/FL" thing. But today, it's here, where I live, in force.
Whatever social/political capital there was to spend on strong lockdowns here has been just about used up.
FYI, I'm not stating my position here or wading into anything like politics, just offering observations and anecdata.6 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Here's the outcome of the lawsuit I posted about previously by a voter who felt his rights were violated by being required to put on a mask at a polling place or leave (he was arrested initially for trespassing because he wouldn't leave or vote outside, and then charged subsequently with violating requirements by the governor for wearing masks at polling places):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/harford-mask-lawsuit-dismissed/2020/10/30/e6c56cb2-1adc-11eb-befb-8864259bd2d8_story.html
Frivolous wasre of the court's time. And while we may want to respect his "right to [breathe] oxygen and worship the Lord his Creator with an uncovered face, including while he votes, and not with a muzzle, face covering or mask", I also have a right to breathe without fear of catching COVID19 from other persons breathing or sneezing or coughing nearby.7 -
Re: Halloween
Weather was decent (last year we got 8" of snow) so I set up a bowl with treats and set it up at the end of my patio. I got cheap treat bags and put a few treats in each bag so the kids wouldn't be digging in the bowl, just grab a bag. I dressed up and sat on the patio six feet away so I could greet the kids but stay distanced. My neighbor took her kids out and said there weren't as many kids trick or treating and not as many homes had treats. She also said there weren't groups of kids like usual, mostly it was kids with a parent or two. Nobody was covid masked. I got the same number of kids as other years but the demographics were different . . . there were a lot of teenagers on bikes, some in costumes and some not. As long as I had candy for the little ones, I didn't care.
On the other hand, my night was made when Winnie the Pooh rolled up on a bike.
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missysippy930 wrote: »All I’m going to say about Halloween is that there will, more than likely, be an uptick in cases of covid as a result.
Based on what I saw/heard in my neighborhood, I'm optimistic. Ours starts at 4 and the first groups were clearly family groups, so people who would have been together anyway. Later groups with older kids still seemed to be small, so likely kids who were hanging out anyway, and whenever I opened the door to refill or check on my bowl, pretty much everyone I saw outside were masked in some way (easy to make that part of the costume).
Kids are already grouping in a variety of ways -- some schools are open in person, there are sports going on, and many parents are doing small social groups so their kids can have interaction with other kids (and the parents get a break) -- so I don't see this as likely to have contributed much to an outbreak, at least not where I am. The city's reasoning in having Halloween was that the alternative would likely be more indoor parties, so this was a better option.2 -
RE: Island comments.
I'm not suggesting that being an island is the silver bullet. But it's a buff to your efforts, to borrow some RPG terminology. A nation must still do lots of other things. But defending a set of discrete points (airports, ports) is relatively easier than long, contiguous, possibly porous borders.
Another factor working decidedly against us here in the US is our sheer size and heterogeneity. In the spring, people where I live (Appalachia) could say, "Oh, that's a NY thing." In the summer surge, it was "Oh, that's a CA/AZ/TX/FL" thing. But today, it's here, where I live, in force.
Whatever social/political capital there was to spend on strong lockdowns here has been just about used up.
FYI, I'm not stating my position here or wading into anything like politics, just offering observations and anecdata.
I don't really think the US's issue is not being an island, as we really only have two long borders, and I don't see Canada or Mexico playing a significant role in spread. It's more than we can't realistically enforce borders/travel between states, and certainly never tried in any meaningful way. There are, of course, other factors that I won't get into, as they tend to be politically charged.8 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »
How do you think that? Scofflaw?Theoldguy1 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha
Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.
So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?
Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.
I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.
Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.
I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?
This was kinda my question too...you'd basically have to institute a police state and declare Marshall Law.
The vast majority of all speeding and running stop signs, etc., aren't ticketed and charge because we don't live in a police state. It doesn't mean they aren't subject to enforcement or that they shouldn't be.
The things you mention are statute...they are law and thus enforceable. The governor going on channel 4 every Thursday and saying this week it's no more than 10...and next week it's 5....and next week it's 8 isn't law...it's not enforceable. Right now, the guideline is no more than 5...I will be having Thanksgiving here and it will be 8 and it will all be close family that we've been seeing since the beginning of this thing...these people are my family and we've all considered the risk and take precautions...but we're family and we're not going to sit here not seeing each other ever when we live down basically down the street from each other.
The police have no leg to stand on if they should choose to site me for having my mom and her husband and my sister and her husband over for dinner and we exceed her latest guideline of 5 people. I work in the judiciary and know many in law enforcement and they agree...they have no precedent or any kind of leg to stand on if they actually tried to enforce something like that. A big keg party or something, there are ordinances that they can enforce in those circumstances...they can't stop anyone from having a couple people over for turkey. They also have no desire to put themselves at risk for something like that...this is the US and people carry friggin guns to the grocery store...so yeah...no cop is going to come knocking on the door telling anyone that grannie has to leave. when there is zero precedent and no enforceable ordinance on the books.4 -
missysippy930 wrote: »All I’m going to say about Halloween is that there will, more than likely, be an uptick in cases of covid as a result.
Based on what I saw/heard in my neighborhood, I'm optimistic. Ours starts at 4 and the first groups were clearly family groups, so people who would have been together anyway. Later groups with older kids still seemed to be small, so likely kids who were hanging out anyway, and whenever I opened the door to refill or check on my bowl, pretty much everyone I saw outside were masked in some way (easy to make that part of the costume).
Kids are already grouping in a variety of ways -- some schools are open in person, there are sports going on, and many parents are doing small social groups so their kids can have interaction with other kids (and the parents get a break) -- so I don't see this as likely to have contributed much to an outbreak, at least not where I am. The city's reasoning in having Halloween was that the alternative would likely be more indoor parties, so this was a better option.
I’m not as concerned about the kids actually trick or treating, although that presents a somewhat increased risk as well, as I am about the older kids, and adults, having a parties.
I feel really bad for the young children. Missing out on things a lot of us looked forward to every year. How are Santa visits going to be handled this year? It’s really sad.4 -
So reporting on Halloween, I saw that at least one of my neighbors did the candy shooter set up. I went with bowl of candy outside, sign saying take one or two. Most of the earlier kids were with parents, and the parents were saying "just take one," and generally they were all being respectful of the sign until I heard some crazy giggling from some slightly older girls around 7 and checked and indeed they'd taken much of what was left.
I had extra candy (I always buy too much), so didn't really mind, and just refilled. As it's now about 8, it seems to be mostly or entirely over, and I think I actually got quite a few more kids than last year (but last year we had tons of snow and also I missed the beginning since I wasn't home from work yet).
It's more fun to be able to see the kids and give the candy out in person, but I could hear them and it was nice they got to do a Halloween of some sort.
Where I live isn't particularly conducive to trick or treating and isn't really a thing. We usually have a big trunk or treat deal down at the soccer fields but that was cancelled. We did something a bit different this year and it was actually pretty fun...maybe even more fun than usual Halloweens.
We bought the kids witch hats and filled them with candy and other little toys like a stocking stuffer for Christmas. We woke up in the morning and they "opened" their hats. Had doughnuts and coffee for breakfast (hot cocoa for the kids) and then threw our costumes on and went down to Wagner's Farm to pick out our pumpkins. Probably about 30 people there spread out over several acres of corn maze and pumpkin patch...got our pumpkins and came home to carve them and watched Hocus Pocus while the kids enjoyed some Martinelli Cider and mom and I had some harder cider...
All in all, it was a really fun day...17 -
RE: Island comments.
I'm not suggesting that being an island is the silver bullet. But it's a buff to your efforts, to borrow some RPG terminology. A nation must still do lots of other things. But defending a set of discrete points (airports, ports) is relatively easier than long, contiguous, possibly porous borders.
Another factor working decidedly against us here in the US is our sheer size and heterogeneity. In the spring, people where I live (Appalachia) could say, "Oh, that's a NY thing." In the summer surge, it was "Oh, that's a CA/AZ/TX/FL" thing. But today, it's here, where I live, in force.
Whatever social/political capital there was to spend on strong lockdowns here has been just about used up.
FYI, I'm not stating my position here or wading into anything like politics, just offering observations and anecdata.
I don't really think the US's issue is not being an island, as we really only have two long borders, and I don't see Canada or Mexico playing a significant role in spread. It's more than we can't realistically enforce borders/travel between states, and certainly never tried in any meaningful way. There are, of course, other factors that I won't get into, as they tend to be politically charged.
yes i think the way it was handled by leadership and population compliance a is far more of an issue than whether or not a country is an island
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I agree 100%paperpudding wrote: »RE: Island comments.
I'm not suggesting that being an island is the silver bullet. But it's a buff to your efforts, to borrow some RPG terminology. A nation must still do lots of other things. But defending a set of discrete points (airports, ports) is relatively easier than long, contiguous, possibly porous borders.
Another factor working decidedly against us here in the US is our sheer size and heterogeneity. In the spring, people where I live (Appalachia) could say, "Oh, that's a NY thing." In the summer surge, it was "Oh, that's a CA/AZ/TX/FL" thing. But today, it's here, where I live, in force.
Whatever social/political capital there was to spend on strong lockdowns here has been just about used up.
FYI, I'm not stating my position here or wading into anything like politics, just offering observations and anecdata.
I don't really think the US's issue is not being an island, as we really only have two long borders, and I don't see Canada or Mexico playing a significant role in spread. It's more than we can't realistically enforce borders/travel between states, and certainly never tried in any meaningful way. There are, of course, other factors that I won't get into, as they tend to be politically charged.
yes i think the way it was handled by leadership and population compliance a is far more of an issue than whether or not a country is an island6 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »
How do you think that? Scofflaw?Theoldguy1 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha
Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.
So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?
Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.
I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.
Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.
I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?
Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.
No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.
But that's typically not the case. One can go into bars and restaurants and see what they are doing. One typically has no sign of law-breaking at private homes even where there are strict rules like those in CA. For example, here (which is likely one of the more compliant areas of the US overall), there were at one point some huge house parties, advertised online and otherwise, and those got shut down. These are huge and easy to detect if people are watching for them. (Worth noting -- and as Ann said, this is just the facts, not a political opinion -- that when that happened it was reported on Fox as if the mayor was crazily trying to shut down people having a few guests over, ignoring what "house party" meant in these cases.)
But if someone has several people over for a holiday party, there's going to be no obvious sign unless a neighbor is spying on your and calls the cops. This is especially true if (as normal this time of year, given the weather), the gathering is inside. Where I live, people don't have driveways and you can't pull up in front of the house, so there's no "10 car in front of the house" giveaway. I had a 20 person holiday party in December of last year (obv don't plan to this year), and no one would have known as we weren't noisy. I have one guest spot, everyone else took public transit or car pooled. So rules about the size of holiday gatherings -- although I support them -- seem to me basically unenforceable.
This summer in my neighborhood, house parties were yard parties including PA systems cranked up to live band decibel levels. We could feel the bass in our basement 100 yards away. Our noise ordinances include decibels levels at the property edge, so it is very easy to know when someone is too loud. The mayor hadn't wanted to give out fines for this, but finally concluded that these parties (and an especially egregious 500 plus "mansion party") were contributing to my city being # 2 or 3 for cases in the state, and instituted a curfew and a green light to levy fines.
Most of these happened the next street over where we do not know the people. Several of us have talked to the one family on our street having loud parties. They are considerate when sober but not so much once the alcohol gets flowing and have weird views like, "It was the son's birthday" and "Once you're a homeowner you get to have parties."
While it hasn't been an issue since the weather got cold, we'd been planning to move to my elderly mother's town at some point anyway, and have moved our timetable up.6 -
Trying to catch up here on the many comments over the past day+.
@smithker75 I have a quick question for you on how Australia handled a particular situation. I'm in Northeast USA (massachusetts). Many people in this area have second homes outside their state. We have the snowbirds, with winter homes in Florida, or the skiers with weekend homes in VT, NH, or ME. There are others with summer places, again often in VT, NH or ME. Are second homes common in Australia as well, and if so how did the government handle controlling the movement of residents while also allowing residents the right to use their personal property?
@zamphir66 and @lemurcat2 I actually agree with you both. In zamphir66's comments about borders, I personally was not only thinking about peripheral boarders and influx, but also the state borders as well.2 -
Re Australia question Some people have second homes. They had to stay in one state if the borders were locked.
There were some exemption for essential travellers, but going to a holiday home was not one of them.6 -
@paperpudding Thanks! 1
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cwolfman13 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »
How do you think that? Scofflaw?Theoldguy1 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha
Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.
So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?
Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.
I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.
Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.
I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?
This was kinda my question too...you'd basically have to institute a police state and declare Marshall Law.
The vast majority of all speeding and running stop signs, etc., aren't ticketed and charge because we don't live in a police state. It doesn't mean they aren't subject to enforcement or that they shouldn't be.
The things you mention are statute...they are law and thus enforceable. The governor going on channel 4 every Thursday and saying this week it's no more than 10...and next week it's 5....and next week it's 8 isn't law...it's not enforceable. Right now, the guideline is no more than 5...I will be having Thanksgiving here and it will be 8 and it will all be close family that we've been seeing since the beginning of this thing...these people are my family and we've all considered the risk and take precautions...but we're family and we're not going to sit here not seeing each other ever when we live down basically down the street from each other.
The police have no leg to stand on if they should choose to site me for having my mom and her husband and my sister and her husband over for dinner and we exceed her latest guideline of 5 people. I work in the judiciary and know many in law enforcement and they agree...they have no precedent or any kind of leg to stand on if they actually tried to enforce something like that. A big keg party or something, there are ordinances that they can enforce in those circumstances...they can't stop anyone from having a couple people over for turkey. They also have no desire to put themselves at risk for something like that...this is the US and people carry friggin guns to the grocery store...so yeah...no cop is going to come knocking on the door telling anyone that grannie has to leave. when there is zero precedent and no enforceable ordinance on the books.
There's a difference between saying it's not practical and not worth the consequences of trying to ferret out small private gatherings that exceed the current mandated maximum without being obvious about it, and saying that executive directives are not legally enforceable. If a governor's order is issued pursuant to statutory authority, it's enforceable. Lots of people in this country are convinced income taxes are unconstitutional, but they still end up having their wages garnished and their property confiscated when they don't pay their taxes.2 -
Re: Halloween
Weather was decent (last year we got 8" of snow) so I set up a bowl with treats and set it up at the end of my patio. I got cheap treat bags and put a few treats in each bag so the kids wouldn't be digging in the bowl, just grab a bag. I dressed up and sat on the patio six feet away so I could greet the kids but stay distanced. My neighbor took her kids out and said there weren't as many kids trick or treating and not as many homes had treats. She also said there weren't groups of kids like usual, mostly it was kids with a parent or two. Nobody was covid masked. I got the same number of kids as other years but the demographics were different . . . there were a lot of teenagers on bikes, some in costumes and some not. As long as I had candy for the little ones, I didn't care.
On the other hand, my night was made when Winnie the Pooh rolled up on a bike.
Oh, please say you have a picture of Winnie the Pooh on a bike! 0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »
How do you think that? Scofflaw?Theoldguy1 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha
Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.
So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?
Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.
I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.
Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.
I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?
Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.
No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.
But that's typically not the case. One can go into bars and restaurants and see what they are doing. One typically has no sign of law-breaking at private homes even where there are strict rules like those in CA. For example, here (which is likely one of the more compliant areas of the US overall), there were at one point some huge house parties, advertised online and otherwise, and those got shut down. These are huge and easy to detect if people are watching for them. (Worth noting -- and as Ann said, this is just the facts, not a political opinion -- that when that happened it was reported on Fox as if the mayor was crazily trying to shut down people having a few guests over, ignoring what "house party" meant in these cases.)
But if someone has several people over for a holiday party, there's going to be no obvious sign unless a neighbor is spying on your and calls the cops. This is especially true if (as normal this time of year, given the weather), the gathering is inside. Where I live, people don't have driveways and you can't pull up in front of the house, so there's no "10 car in front of the house" giveaway. I had a 20 person holiday party in December of last year (obv don't plan to this year), and no one would have known as we weren't noisy. I have one guest spot, everyone else took public transit or car pooled. So rules about the size of holiday gatherings -- although I support them -- seem to me basically unenforceable.
This summer in my neighborhood, house parties were yard parties including PA systems cranked up to live band decibel levels. We could feel the bass in our basement 100 yards away. Our noise ordinances include decibels levels at the property edge, so it is very easy to know when someone is too loud. The mayor hadn't wanted to give out fines for this, but finally concluded that these parties (and an especially egregious 500 plus "mansion party") were contributing to my city being # 2 or 3 for cases in the state, and instituted a curfew and a green light to levy fines.
Most of these happened the next street over where we do not know the people. Several of us have talked to the one family on our street having loud parties. They are considerate when sober but not so much once the alcohol gets flowing and have weird views like, "It was the son's birthday" and "Once you're a homeowner you get to have parties."
While it hasn't been an issue since the weather got cold, we'd been planning to move to my elderly mother's town at some point anyway, and have moved our timetable up.
This is pretty different from where I live. In my neighborhood most have lots of 125x25 (standard Chicago) or 125x30 (what I have), and are being pretty compliant. The house parties I mentioned are in quite different neighborhoods. My prior 'hood (which was basically Wrigleyville) has been an issue, but not due to house parties, but bar violations.1
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