Coronavirus prep
Replies
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I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.
I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.
Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.
Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.5 -
Muscleflex79 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »I'll give a report on Italy. We're moving along with vaccinations. Doing 65+ now and I'm in that group, so last day of May is my appointment for 1st dose--Pfizer. Husband lucked out and is all done (slipped into a cancellation slot).
Our problem is: vaccines ordered are not arriving as promised. AZ is especially the culprit, and the UE is cancelling future contracts with them. Pfizer arrivals are slow too and it was announced that instead of receiving the 2nd dose 2 weeks after it will be extended to 40 days. Sigh, that'll effect me. Better half than nothing.
COVID is slowing here. As the days get longer there are fewer infections and rules are being loosened. For now bars and restaurants have to have tables outside and everything must close at 9:30pm and everyone must go home. Soon this will be moved to 11:00pm, and people will be seated inside again. Masks and distancing are still required. Schools are open, as are museums. Soon theaters, cinemas, gyms, and pools etc. will open with caution. We now have a 3.5% transmission rate. Deaths are way down. So, things are looking up.
I've kept up with my exercising since October--stretching and yoga at home, and powerwalking, running for 45 min every morning around the park. I think we've missed 5 days, for rain, in 7 and a half months. However, I miss the pool. I can't wait until it opens, and I can get back in the gym for some strength training.
I just got a message from the health dept. My 1st dose of Pfizer is confirmed for May 29th. The 2nd dose has been pushed back to July 3rd. I was expecting it, but I'm just so disappointed now that it's happened. I'd like to tell them to shove it.
Chances are good you will be protected after the first dose - 80% of people are.
The difference in immunity between the first and second doses has been repeatedly misrepresented by the press and others, including Dr. Fauci, who should know better. There’s no evidence for “partial immunity” after the first dose - that isn’t what any study has tested for. Studies group people into statistics, but individual people are not to be confused with statistics. About 80% of people have an immune response after the first dose. About one in 10, especially people in treatment for cancer, don’t until after the second dose. Some, depending on which vax about 1 in 10, will never develop immunity from the vaccine.
That’s the reasoning behind the U.K. delaying second doses and getting a first dose into as many people as possible, and it has worked. It’s simple math. You have 20 doses, and 20 people. If you give one dose to everybody, you end up with 16 immune. If you give two doses to half the people, you end up with 9 immune. In the short term, it’s better to have 16 than nine, and wait until you can give the second dose to all 20 - at which time you will pick up an additional two people, and have 18 immune.
this is VERY interesting! do you have any good links that explain this (going to look myself, but thought I'd ask in case you have anything)?
here in Ontario they just cancelled all public events through September (we are currently not allowed to leave our houses - a stay at home order that they extend every two weeks and are expected to continue to do so through the summer) with the message that the majority only have one shot so we are not protected until the fall. if this is true, it could change everything - yet hasn't once been mentioned my the news or "health experts" which is interesting.
Sorry about the new lock down.
My friend in Da Nang (Vietnam) said they just went back into another one and it is expected to go on for months.
Here are some links about the protection after the firs dose.- https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/the-moderna-covid-19-mrna-1273-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know
- https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-vaccines-int/pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-highly-effective-after-first-shot-in-real-world-use-u-s-study-shows-idUSKBN2BL2UW
- https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/29/cdc-study-shows-single-dose-of-pfizer-or-moderna-covid-vaccines-was-80percent-effective.html
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The_Enginerd wrote: »Just received an update on the mask guidance for our workplace: masks are still required except if you've been fully vaccinated. You cannot ask about an employee's vaccination status. Not feeling very comfortable with that considering the Venn diagram of those who are anti-mask and those who refuse to take and will lie about their vaccination status is just two circles on top of each other.
Despite feeling pretty close to fully open (seriously, traffic SUCKS again) with stores seeming pretty busy, our case number have continued to go down in CA and are half of what they were during the summer low. That is at least encouraging that the vaccination rate and effectiveness is having a real effect. I'm just hoping we continue to take a measured and science based approach to reopening and lifting of restrictions.
Newsom said today California will not sync up with the CDC masking updates until June 15th.6 -
Where I live, although plenty are reasonably not wearing masks outdoors (and they are still required indoors), and I live in a neighborhood where I assume most are vaccinated, I think there's more potential issue with people scared to resume normal life because of any risk at all, even risk similar to what we always faced. But that's just what I'm seeing.
There are only about 20 employees working in person at my office right now, and anyone who hasn't shown the GM their vaccine card must still wear a mask, the rest of us don't have to. I've been dropping by once a week to do the onsite tasks I can't do from home, and this week I decided to stop masking. And I was surprised by how weird it felt. Like one of those dreams where you're at work and realize you forgot to wear pants
It wasn't necessarily fear (though as a worrier I can't help but worry that something will go horribly wrong and I'm sure that was part of it). I don't know, I just felt like I had forgotten something the whole time! I actually held a folder in front of my nose & mouth at one point as I walked down the hallway without realizing it, and when I did, I was like, what are you doing lol?
If it was just my coworkers, I wouldn't be concerned. But I have a very public facing job. And I would like to see some really solid data on vaccinated people not being able to pass on the virus to the unvaccinated. I saw first hand the spread from asymptomatic people, even when they were following masking requirements.
I'm right there with you about worry about downstream consequences I will most likely never know. The ethics of this whole pandemic and the responsibility I feel for being a part of a community have weighed on me.9 -
@baconslave Yeah I see a lot of pundits on social media say "if you trust the science and you're vaccinated you should stop wearing a mask". And that's such an oversimplified translation of what the CDC is saying. It's true in a vacuum. And it might only be true temporarily. There are still a lot of people in situations like yours, or with medical conditions that may affect their reaction to the vaxx, or in areas that are just now getting access. But I'd bet most of the restrictions in the US will be lifted within the next week or two. The gov of VA ended mask mandates as of midnight last night and said capacity restrictions will end May 28. Last I looked, VA was just approaching 50% vaccinated.
And there have been plenty of people on social media saying they are not getting vaccinated and are not wearing a mask now because "no one will know." There's a cabin in the woods waiting for you, buddy!8 -
I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.
I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.
Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.
Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.
I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.
Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.1 -
I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.
I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.
Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.
Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.
I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.
Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.
The property rights of medical development are very murky issues. I’m by no means specialized in them, but to add some thoughts here: it’s widely thought that companies do have (or should have) some social responsibility, especially in global crisis like this one. From what I understand, many of the developed vaccines also received significant research funding from public budgets, which makes it seem unfair to many that the costs are covered (partly) by the public but the winnings are kept fully by those private companies.
Then there’s also the issue that this is, in fact, a global pandemic, and nobody is really safe until the whole world is safe since new variations keep developing wherever the virus spreads freely. We’ve just seen an example of this, with the ”western world” (Europe and northern America) getting largely vaccinated and infection numbers starting to go down, but the situation in India is really bad and there’s a dangerous new variant spreading all over the world that originated there. If even one of these new variants that pop up because of lack of medicine and sanitation can avoid the immunity given by the vaccine and starts spreading globally, we’re back to square one. This is also why the UN and WHO were calling for a global distribution of vaccines based on population instead of money - the poor, densely populated countries also have less medical care available, less social security that makes it possible for people to go on lockdown without starving, less mask and sanitation availability etc., making these areas potential hotbeds for mass infections, mass death, and new variants. The argument sometimes made about the vaccine property rights related to this is that it’s the governments’ own interest to strip IPR protections to enable quick global vaccination so these variants leading back to square one can be avoided.4 -
I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.
I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.
Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.
Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.
I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.
Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.
The property rights of medical development are very murky issues. I’m by no means specialized in them, but to add some thoughts here: it’s widely thought that companies do have (or should have) some social responsibility, especially in global crisis like this one. From what I understand, many of the developed vaccines also received significant research funding from public budgets, which makes it seem unfair to many that the costs are covered (partly) by the public but the winnings are kept fully by those private companies.
Then there’s also the issue that this is, in fact, a global pandemic, and nobody is really safe until the whole world is safe since new variations keep developing wherever the virus spreads freely. We’ve just seen an example of this, with the ”western world” (Europe and northern America) getting largely vaccinated and infection numbers starting to go down, but the situation in India is really bad and there’s a dangerous new variant spreading all over the world that originated there. If even one of these new variants that pop up because of lack of medicine and sanitation can avoid the immunity given by the vaccine and starts spreading globally, we’re back to square one. This is also why the UN and WHO were calling for a global distribution of vaccines based on population instead of money - the poor, densely populated countries also have less medical care available, less social security that makes it possible for people to go on lockdown without starving, less mask and sanitation availability etc., making these areas potential hotbeds for mass infections, mass death, and new variants. The argument sometimes made about the vaccine property rights related to this is that it’s the governments’ own interest to strip IPR protections to enable quick global vaccination so these variants leading back to square one can be avoided.
Yes I am aware of all of this and honestly I thought by now you would know that I am not an idiot and understand the issues surrounding the pandemic and the urgency involved.
What I fully admit that I don't understand are the implications of retroactively stripping a company of their intellectual property protection, and what impact that could have on future research and development partnerships. Which I why I said I am not sure whether I support it or not.5 -
I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.
I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.
Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.
Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.
I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.
Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.
In some more in-depth reports on the issue, I've heard a few other considerations:
One is global supply chains. Reportedly, some of these vaccines' production depends on materials or equipment that are in short supply. The concern is that a free-for-all approach could result in new manufacturing players cannabalizing parts of in-place supply chains (possibly via mechanisms like export restrictions imposed in the country where the supply originates, to benefit new vaccine manufacturers there), and create a supply gridlock that could actually reduce net global vaccine production in the short to medium term, which is the vital phase for turning the tide on the pandemic.
A second is production methods. Some of the vaccines rely on relatively new technology (not so much the science in this case as the full-scale production methods), and use approaches that a small handful of companies (and people) have experience in. To broaden out production with proper quality control, there needs to be knowledge transfer about production method details, not just release of the vaccine's formulas. Given the speed and urgency of ramp-up, some of information may reside primarily in minds and procedural documents (used by line workers), not in a form that can be readily transferred without lots of human effort from the current experts. This, too, has potential to divert corporate/individual-expert attention from things like production increases from current manufacturers, development of booster vaccines if new variants require them, etc.
Finally, timing. The ramp-up period is long for a new vaccine manufacturing source (certainly if new plants, but even retooling older vaccine/drug plants). Turning the tide on the pandemic is a pretty immediate problem. It's unclear whether substantial new adequate-quality manufacturing bandwidth, enabled by the IP waiver, would come online soon enough to make a meaningful difference.
I'm NOT expressing a personal opinion here about whether the IP rights should or shouldn't be waived. I'm simply passing along some additional nuances I've heard in the media, for information/consideration. I have no doubt that some of these concerns originate in the companies whose IP rights are under consideration to be waived.13 -
I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.
I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.
Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.
Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.
I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.
Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.
The property rights of medical development are very murky issues. I’m by no means specialized in them, but to add some thoughts here: it’s widely thought that companies do have (or should have) some social responsibility, especially in global crisis like this one. From what I understand, many of the developed vaccines also received significant research funding from public budgets, which makes it seem unfair to many that the costs are covered (partly) by the public but the winnings are kept fully by those private companies.
Then there’s also the issue that this is, in fact, a global pandemic, and nobody is really safe until the whole world is safe since new variations keep developing wherever the virus spreads freely. We’ve just seen an example of this, with the ”western world” (Europe and northern America) getting largely vaccinated and infection numbers starting to go down, but the situation in India is really bad and there’s a dangerous new variant spreading all over the world that originated there. If even one of these new variants that pop up because of lack of medicine and sanitation can avoid the immunity given by the vaccine and starts spreading globally, we’re back to square one. This is also why the UN and WHO were calling for a global distribution of vaccines based on population instead of money - the poor, densely populated countries also have less medical care available, less social security that makes it possible for people to go on lockdown without starving, less mask and sanitation availability etc., making these areas potential hotbeds for mass infections, mass death, and new variants. The argument sometimes made about the vaccine property rights related to this is that it’s the governments’ own interest to strip IPR protections to enable quick global vaccination so these variants leading back to square one can be avoided.
Yes I am aware of all of this and honestly I thought by now you would know that I am not an idiot and understand the issues surrounding the pandemic and the urgency involved.
What I fully admit that I don't understand are the implications of retroactively stripping a company of their intellectual property protection, and what impact that could have on future research and development partnerships. Which I why I said I am not sure whether I support it or not.
Definitely didn’t intend to imply you were that ignorant or dumb. I’ve been enjoying our exchanges here, despite the occasional disagreement. My only intention was to give general background to the arguments made later in the paragraph. Not directed at you, despite being a response to the IPR discussion you started.
In other news, my city opened vaccine appointment booking for the next age group. Only one more age group before it’s my husband’s turn!12 -
https://youtu.be/7VVOPk8IwHI
It was my strong reaction to the first shot that helped me to realize my very bad sinus infection 4 months ago and 4 months leg clots to follow could have been more than I thought at the time.8 -
I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.
I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.
Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.
Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.
I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.
Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.
The property rights of medical development are very murky issues. I’m by no means specialized in them, but to add some thoughts here: it’s widely thought that companies do have (or should have) some social responsibility, especially in global crisis like this one. From what I understand, many of the developed vaccines also received significant research funding from public budgets, which makes it seem unfair to many that the costs are covered (partly) by the public but the winnings are kept fully by those private companies.
Then there’s also the issue that this is, in fact, a global pandemic, and nobody is really safe until the whole world is safe since new variations keep developing wherever the virus spreads freely. We’ve just seen an example of this, with the ”western world” (Europe and northern America) getting largely vaccinated and infection numbers starting to go down, but the situation in India is really bad and there’s a dangerous new variant spreading all over the world that originated there. If even one of these new variants that pop up because of lack of medicine and sanitation can avoid the immunity given by the vaccine and starts spreading globally, we’re back to square one. This is also why the UN and WHO were calling for a global distribution of vaccines based on population instead of money - the poor, densely populated countries also have less medical care available, less social security that makes it possible for people to go on lockdown without starving, less mask and sanitation availability etc., making these areas potential hotbeds for mass infections, mass death, and new variants. The argument sometimes made about the vaccine property rights related to this is that it’s the governments’ own interest to strip IPR protections to enable quick global vaccination so these variants leading back to square one can be avoided.
Yes I am aware of all of this and honestly I thought by now you would know that I am not an idiot and understand the issues surrounding the pandemic and the urgency involved.
What I fully admit that I don't understand are the implications of retroactively stripping a company of their intellectual property protection, and what impact that could have on future research and development partnerships. Which I why I said I am not sure whether I support it or not.
Definitely didn’t intend to imply you were that ignorant or dumb. I’ve been enjoying our exchanges here, despite the occasional disagreement. My only intention was to give general background to the arguments made later in the paragraph. Not directed at you, despite being a response to the IPR discussion you started.
In other news, my city opened vaccine appointment booking for the next age group. Only one more age group before it’s my husband’s turn!
Ok thanks you quoted me so I wasn't sure if it was directed at me.
We opened up to everyone 18 and over today - we had a slow roll out but it ramped up quickly once the vaccines started coming in regularly.
I almost feel like with what I am reading here we must be getting all the Pfizer doses or something, we are getting 2 million delivered this week (our population is almost 15 million and we are about 50% first shot now), and that is why they have opened up to everyone now.
My middle son (28) will be vaccinated today and that will be 5 for 5 in my family - youngest being my 27 year old daughter last week. Hope your husband's turn comes up soon.3 -
I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.
I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.
Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.
Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.
I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.
Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.
The property rights of medical development are very murky issues. I’m by no means specialized in them, but to add some thoughts here: it’s widely thought that companies do have (or should have) some social responsibility, especially in global crisis like this one. From what I understand, many of the developed vaccines also received significant research funding from public budgets, which makes it seem unfair to many that the costs are covered (partly) by the public but the winnings are kept fully by those private companies.
Then there’s also the issue that this is, in fact, a global pandemic, and nobody is really safe until the whole world is safe since new variations keep developing wherever the virus spreads freely. We’ve just seen an example of this, with the ”western world” (Europe and northern America) getting largely vaccinated and infection numbers starting to go down, but the situation in India is really bad and there’s a dangerous new variant spreading all over the world that originated there. If even one of these new variants that pop up because of lack of medicine and sanitation can avoid the immunity given by the vaccine and starts spreading globally, we’re back to square one. This is also why the UN and WHO were calling for a global distribution of vaccines based on population instead of money - the poor, densely populated countries also have less medical care available, less social security that makes it possible for people to go on lockdown without starving, less mask and sanitation availability etc., making these areas potential hotbeds for mass infections, mass death, and new variants. The argument sometimes made about the vaccine property rights related to this is that it’s the governments’ own interest to strip IPR protections to enable quick global vaccination so these variants leading back to square one can be avoided.
Yes I am aware of all of this and honestly I thought by now you would know that I am not an idiot and understand the issues surrounding the pandemic and the urgency involved.
What I fully admit that I don't understand are the implications of retroactively stripping a company of their intellectual property protection, and what impact that could have on future research and development partnerships. Which I why I said I am not sure whether I support it or not.
Definitely didn’t intend to imply you were that ignorant or dumb. I’ve been enjoying our exchanges here, despite the occasional disagreement. My only intention was to give general background to the arguments made later in the paragraph. Not directed at you, despite being a response to the IPR discussion you started.
In other news, my city opened vaccine appointment booking for the next age group. Only one more age group before it’s my husband’s turn!
Ok thanks you quoted me so I wasn't sure if it was directed at me.
We opened up to everyone 18 and over today - we had a slow roll out but it ramped up quickly once the vaccines started coming in regularly.
I almost feel like with what I am reading here we must be getting all the Pfizer doses or something, we are getting 2 million delivered this week (our population is almost 15 million and we are about 50% first shot now), and that is why they have opened up to everyone now.
My middle son (28) will be vaccinated today and that will be 5 for 5 in my family - youngest being my 27 year old daughter last week. Hope your husband's turn comes up soon.
I was expecting Pfizer yesterday and actually got Moderna.
And, for the record, other than maybe some very slight tenderness at the injection area, I've had no side effects whatsoever. Although I do expect some general bodily aches tonight because I've been out there weeding and thinning like a madwoman to beat the rain that we have forecast for the next six days. In other words, it hasn't curtailed my activities one bit.8 -
I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.
I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.
Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.
Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.
I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.
Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.
The property rights of medical development are very murky issues. I’m by no means specialized in them, but to add some thoughts here: it’s widely thought that companies do have (or should have) some social responsibility, especially in global crisis like this one. From what I understand, many of the developed vaccines also received significant research funding from public budgets, which makes it seem unfair to many that the costs are covered (partly) by the public but the winnings are kept fully by those private companies.
Then there’s also the issue that this is, in fact, a global pandemic, and nobody is really safe until the whole world is safe since new variations keep developing wherever the virus spreads freely. We’ve just seen an example of this, with the ”western world” (Europe and northern America) getting largely vaccinated and infection numbers starting to go down, but the situation in India is really bad and there’s a dangerous new variant spreading all over the world that originated there. If even one of these new variants that pop up because of lack of medicine and sanitation can avoid the immunity given by the vaccine and starts spreading globally, we’re back to square one. This is also why the UN and WHO were calling for a global distribution of vaccines based on population instead of money - the poor, densely populated countries also have less medical care available, less social security that makes it possible for people to go on lockdown without starving, less mask and sanitation availability etc., making these areas potential hotbeds for mass infections, mass death, and new variants. The argument sometimes made about the vaccine property rights related to this is that it’s the governments’ own interest to strip IPR protections to enable quick global vaccination so these variants leading back to square one can be avoided.
Yes I am aware of all of this and honestly I thought by now you would know that I am not an idiot and understand the issues surrounding the pandemic and the urgency involved.
What I fully admit that I don't understand are the implications of retroactively stripping a company of their intellectual property protection, and what impact that could have on future research and development partnerships. Which I why I said I am not sure whether I support it or not.
Definitely didn’t intend to imply you were that ignorant or dumb. I’ve been enjoying our exchanges here, despite the occasional disagreement. My only intention was to give general background to the arguments made later in the paragraph. Not directed at you, despite being a response to the IPR discussion you started.
In other news, my city opened vaccine appointment booking for the next age group. Only one more age group before it’s my husband’s turn!
Ok thanks you quoted me so I wasn't sure if it was directed at me.
We opened up to everyone 18 and over today - we had a slow roll out but it ramped up quickly once the vaccines started coming in regularly.
I almost feel like with what I am reading here we must be getting all the Pfizer doses or something, we are getting 2 million delivered this week (our population is almost 15 million and we are about 50% first shot now), and that is why they have opened up to everyone now.
My middle son (28) will be vaccinated today and that will be 5 for 5 in my family - youngest being my 27 year old daughter last week. Hope your husband's turn comes up soon.
I was expecting Pfizer yesterday and actually got Moderna.
And, for the record, other than maybe some very slight tenderness at the injection area, I've had no side effects whatsoever. Although I do expect some general bodily aches tonight because I've been out there weeding and thinning like a madwoman to beat the rain that we have forecast for the next six days. In other words, it hasn't curtailed my activities one bit.
Yeah my oldest son and his fiancee got their's on Saturday and they got Pfizer, but were told that some days that clinic gives Moderna, it just depends what they have available that day. They also had the guy right in front of them pass out and fall flat on his face right after his shot, so that was a bit nerve wracking. But they were fine.
Glad you have no after effects!1 -
I was expecting Pfizer yesterday and actually got Moderna.
And, for the record, other than maybe some very slight tenderness at the injection area, I've had no side effects whatsoever. Although I do expect some general bodily aches tonight because I've been out there weeding and thinning like a madwoman to beat the rain that we have forecast for the next six days. In other words, it hasn't curtailed my activities one bit.
OT, but I live in a very dry climate and I wait until AFTER a rain to do my weeding, if possible, so the ground is soft and weeds pull out easily! LOL! I'm imagining how pissed I'd be if I worked my tail off pulling weeds (mostly breaking them off at the surface) from the hard, dry soil and then it rained right after...
6 -
I was expecting Pfizer yesterday and actually got Moderna.
And, for the record, other than maybe some very slight tenderness at the injection area, I've had no side effects whatsoever. Although I do expect some general bodily aches tonight because I've been out there weeding and thinning like a madwoman to beat the rain that we have forecast for the next six days. In other words, it hasn't curtailed my activities one bit.
OT, but I live in a very dry climate and I wait until AFTER a rain to do my weeding, if possible, so the ground is soft and weeds pull out easily! LOL! I'm imagining how pissed I'd be if I worked my tail off pulling weeds (mostly breaking them off at the surface) from the hard, dry soil and then it rained right after...
I took vacation this week to do the spring garden cleanout, mainly because our designated yard waste pickup day is next Wednesday. "After the rain" looks like it'll be maybe Tuesday, when I'm back at work.
I hear you, though. An older friend of mine says the same, that weeds are easier to pull after rain. In reality, the little suckers are coming out whenever I have the time to spend in the garden!3 -
totally unrelated to Covid (except maybe people did more gardening in lockdowns
) - but yes weeds are definitely easier to pull out after a rain 3 -
I water before I weed.6
-
https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/city-manager-explains-decision-to-lift-mask-mandate-social-distancing-requirements-in-paducah-city-hall/article_e85ce302-b78a-11eb-80bd-cf4a4f2fd964.html.
Sounds like top down leadership is impacting local mask mandates.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/city-manager-explains-decision-to-lift-mask-mandate-social-distancing-requirements-in-paducah-city-hall/article_e85ce302-b78a-11eb-80bd-cf4a4f2fd964.html.
Sounds like top down leadership is impacting local mask mandates.
Interesting to see the change was with the town hall. Yesterday, I needed a notary and headed to the town hall, my usual source. Nope. Will not notarize "due to COVID".
Earlier in the week, cat needed vet for eye issue. Curb side pickup and cannot come in. They call you on the your phone while in the parking lot. Vet starts asking about the issue using anatomical terms that I don't know, and my response was that if I (a vaccinated person with mask) were allowed in, I could point to the problem! I was told that they are not all vaccinated (huh? why not?) and that until that town is "safe" they will not reopen. I looked up the town, and the important number to me is deaths. The last death in that town was May 2020 and even then the total was very very low.
Yesterday, another notary attempt, I went to the UPS store (another notary source). Nope won't do it. As I am figuring out my next option, I am listening to these three admittedly fully vaccinated millenials talking (they talked a lot!) about how they are so virtuous that they double mask. There was no one else in the store?
Needed to go to my safety deposit box. Bank has been closed for over a year. Cannot get in. You have to call for an appointment to get to your box and they send someone from an open location, who then either does not show or comes late and acts cranky once there. I call customer service to find out when are they going to open that location. "Staff is not vaccinated" so it's not safe. I said they should get their @$$es vaccinated then. She did not like that. How are the branches in the other towns open?
I am just so frustrated by this all. If vaccinations are good, great. If masks are good, great. Open up already. I am vaccinated and willing to wear a mask in appropriate indoor settings. Enough already.12 -
Things are pretty open where I am. Some vet clinics are still doing curbside. A good friend of mine is a vet and she said if someone on her staff gets COVID, they have to close down for 2 weeks those closures are part of what is causing so much backlog in veterinary care now. Otherwise, stuff is open but they are still requiring masks in most places because who knows who has been vaccinated and who not? I do find it interesting that, the people who were frustrated with others questioning the CDC are now NOT trusting the CDC's current statement that, if you are fully vaccinated, it is safe to go without a mask. They have become security blankets from some, I think. Theough I know there are exceptions, I believe the vaccinations are effective and I have faith it will protect me. I will continue to wear a mask in public places where I am asked to do so because I am not a jerk.9
-
@Ann262 Thanks for putting the vet's situation in perspective. The only thing I will add is that I assume the vets would have had that same 2 week closedown requirement in the fall. In November and December, when I had several appointments, it was my choice if I came in or did curbside. In the fall, I was not vaccinated and was a greater risk to them, but now that I am vaccinated I am not allowed in. I think that is what adds to my frustration. I had more options when I was a greater risk to them.4
-
GaleHawkins wrote: »https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/city-manager-explains-decision-to-lift-mask-mandate-social-distancing-requirements-in-paducah-city-hall/article_e85ce302-b78a-11eb-80bd-cf4a4f2fd964.html.
Sounds like top down leadership is impacting local mask mandates.
Interesting to see the change was with the town hall. Yesterday, I needed a notary and headed to the town hall, my usual source. Nope. Will not notarize "due to COVID".
Earlier in the week, cat needed vet for eye issue. Curb side pickup and cannot come in. They call you on the your phone while in the parking lot. Vet starts asking about the issue using anatomical terms that I don't know, and my response was that if I (a vaccinated person with mask) were allowed in, I could point to the problem! I was told that they are not all vaccinated (huh? why not?) and that until that town is "safe" they will not reopen. I looked up the town, and the important number to me is deaths. The last death in that town was May 2020 and even then the total was very very low.
Yesterday, another notary attempt, I went to the UPS store (another notary source). Nope won't do it. As I am figuring out my next option, I am listening to these three admittedly fully vaccinated millenials talking (they talked a lot!) about how they are so virtuous that they double mask. There was no one else in the store?
Needed to go to my safety deposit box. Bank has been closed for over a year. Cannot get in. You have to call for an appointment to get to your box and they send someone from an open location, who then either does not show or comes late and acts cranky once there. I call customer service to find out when are they going to open that location. "Staff is not vaccinated" so it's not safe. I said they should get their @$$es vaccinated then. She did not like that. How are the branches in the other towns open?
I am just so frustrated by this all. If vaccinations are good, great. If masks are good, great. Open up already. I am vaccinated and willing to wear a mask in appropriate indoor settings. Enough already.
I'm curious: how have these things worked after March 2020? If you live in a place that needs notarized paperwork in general, I'd imagine someone has needed a notary sometime in the last 14 months. Same with vets, don't they do video appointments where you could show your pet?
We still have less than half of adult population vaccinated. Notarizing paperwork here isn't really a thing (unless you need to take paperwork to a foreign country that require it) and I don't have a pet, but every service I've tried using in the last 14 months has worked well either over the phone, a text chat, a video chat or an on-site appointment if the matter can't be handled remotely.
If your town has seriously been in a complete shutdown without services for 14 months, I totally understand your frustration.6 -
SModa 61 - try to find a bank that is open to visitors. I needed some paperwork notarized and went to the nearest Credit Union that had indoor service. They had a couple of notaries available.4
-
The governor of the great state of Texas has made it illegal for local governments or SCHOOL DISTRICTS (you know, with children too young to be vaccinated) to issue or to enforce mask mandates. Grab some popcorn and let's see how this goes down.13
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@hipari If you saw my reply to @ann262, my vet of the past 20+ years allowed pet parents in during my November and December appointments when I was not vaccinated. Now that I am vaccinated, they are in lock down. As for the % vaccinated. Here that is no longer due to scarcity, but due to unwillingness to get one. There are areas in the US paying people, or giving gift or prizes to people for getting vaccinated. So meanwhile, while I am waiting for those individuals to collect their prizes, businesses are staying locked down because enough are not vaccinated. I am angry that these people are making me into an angry person.
As for the notary, important legal paperwork that we received on short notice that had to be turned around with overnight shipping the same day. After a multitude of phone calls, our lawyer's clerk made arrangements with her son, who is a notary, for us to drive multiple towns to meet him. It was exceedingly nice of both him and her. That office's safety action was to have the notary come outside to us. He said that he has been doing this for people for many months. He even refused any payment from us. That part of my day was very uplifting and makes me want to pay kindness forward.
As for pet video appointment, in Han's case it was an eye problem which would be hard to catch on any camera, and also since animals are unable to contribute to the discussion, unlike an adult human, i do not see how a video appointment would work in most instances. I'd have to compare it to diagnosing a new born by video.
It is not my whole town, but it has been a very frustrating week.8 -
@spiriteagle99 I truly appreciate the suggestion. I did eventually get a solution through a law office multiple towns away. Yes, I would have tried my bank, but it is on lockdown despite requiring me to pay monthly for my safety deposit box at full rate (would be nice it there was a discount given I do not have unrestricted access and they are not paying for any staff). So they were not an option. The bank next to it, same thing. If you try and call a bank before driving over, the phone number is an 800 number and talking to a particular location is a challenge.
5 -
Last comment for me. I thought I would share a vocabulary word that I was introduced to at some point this past year. When I catch myself happily expecting the worst for someone/thing/place, I think about how a country gave it a word and a how maybe I should be altering my thinking and not be thinking/hoping the worst. That word is Schadenfreude.
Edit: Just re-reading what I wrote. Hopefully all can get the concept I was trying to convey and overlook the wording.1 -
@Ann262 Thanks for putting the vet's situation in perspective. The only thing I will add is that I assume the vets would have had that same 2 week closedown requirement in the fall. In November and December, when I had several appointments, it was my choice if I came in or did curbside. In the fall, I was not vaccinated and was a greater risk to them, but now that I am vaccinated I am not allowed in. I think that is what adds to my frustration. I had more options when I was a greater risk to them.
I wonder if they had someone get infected or a COVID exposure scare that shut them down or caused staffing issues due to quarantine that has led them to be much more risk adverse. You sound willing to take reasonable precautions. Unfortunately, there are too many others who are not and put others at risk including defying any health mandates or guidance like a petulant child and lying. My sister's work had to shut down at a point early in the pandemic because someone came in who had tested positive and was supposed to be in quarantine but "had errands to do".6 -
Our vet is doing curbside as well, you go to the parking lot and they call you to do a phone consult, then you bring your dog to the door. After they examine or vaccinate or whatever they are doing, they call again and do another phone consult, then you go to the door and get your dog. It's worked find for us for 3-4 visits over the last year. We also did one where the dog had a lesion and I just emailed them photos and they prescribed based on that.4
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