Coronavirus prep
Replies
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SuzySunshine99 wrote: »I've been thinking about something that may make me sound like a jerk...
I keep hearing fully vaccinated people saying that they are continuing to take all the precautions that they took pre-vaccine, so they can "protect the unvaccinated".
In the U.S., everyone over 12 years old has the opportunity to get vaccinated. There are no supply problems, and most providers no longer require an appointment, you can just walk in.
If you are over 12 years old in the U.S., and you are not vaccinated, then that is a choice you have made. You are choosing to put yourself at risk. What lengths am I supposed to go to in order to protect you?
I fully understand that there are immunocompromised people out there, and that is why I will continue to wear my mask and keep my distance in essential businesses, like grocery stores, the post office, etc. However, I must assume that immunocompromised people would not put themselves in large, unmasked crowds, like concerts or crowded restaurants. That was true before Covid if you were receiving immunotherapy.
I also wear my mask and keep distance from kids that are too young to be vaccinated.
But for adults...It sounds callous when I type this out, but if you choose not to protect yourself, I have little appetite for doing it for you.
I guess I'm just sick of hearing the vaccine excuses.
I just now got my second dose 2 days ago. And I got my first dose the day after eligibility opened up for my group. I didn't waste any time.
In line, there were many, many young people getting their very first shots. It's only been 2 days for the people in my line. They aren't protected yet.
These people weren't willfully blowing off the vax. They just didn't get it as early as you got it, for whatever reason. There were two teen girls in front of me. One said she had to wait a week so she could get a ride from the other girl. People can't always just up and do things.
I get that you might be annoyed if people are still fooling around, delaying vaxes into the summer, but it's still early for the very latest groups.
Just because you're fully vaxxed at this point, doesn't mean the people who come after you are slackers who deserve less consideration. We're not all operating on the same timeline of vaccine availability.
It would have been nice if CDC had waited to drop the mask recommendations until after the minimum vax period for at least the first dose of the final group was completed. I mean, what's one more month of masking for our fellow human beings?
I do agree that we shouldn't waste too much effort on people who willingly choose to endanger themselves at this point. I have zero sympathy for antivaxxers who end up sick.11 -
While I can feel my personal comfort with going unmasked increasing as I pass (today!) the two-week mark from my second vaccination and national and local community case rates continue to fall (yeah!), for now I plan to continue wearing a mask in retail establishments (grocery stores, pharmacies, etc.), restaurants, libraries, and the like, even though they are no longer required locally for the fully vaccinated.
First, because there's about a 1 in 20 chance that any given "fully vaccinated" person -- including me -- is not actually protected (that's what effective rates in the neighborhood of 95% mean). Wearing masks, and hopefully being an example that makes others feel less pressured to discard their masks, means less chance for two of those people in the 5% who mistakenly think they are "safe" to pass the virus between them. So until case rates drop low enough that there's not much reason to be concerned that the 1 in 400 chance for any given interaction between two vaccinated people to actually be an interaction between two people without immunity, I'm planning to keep wearing a mask. It does sound like we could get there sometime this summer. (I also have a lot of concern about each new case being another incubator for potential variants, so I really would like to see low case rates before unmasking.)
Second, because folks who work in retail and restaurants are, in my community anyway, among those most likely to want the vaccine and not have been able to get it, and who don't have any personal choice (short of quitting their jobs) in whether they have to deal with people who won't wear a mask, and no way to be sure those people are actually vaccinated. (Anybody who thinks that a policy of "you don't have to wear a mask if you're vaccinated" isn't going to see a lot of people who choose not to be vaccinated going maskless is naive, at least in the U.S.)
If I can give another human being who has probably had a much harder pandemic year than I did even a two-minute respite from worrying about whether a customer's lack of a mask means they're vaccinated or they're just someone taking advantage of the new "no masks for the vaccinated but nobody is going to make you prove you're vaccinated" policy, doing so at the minute cost of putting on a mask seems the right thing to do.17 -
@SuzySunshine99
Twelve years old kids cannot drive themselves to get vaccinated, neither can 13, 14, 15 and probably 16 years old either. And for what I was reading, kids under 16 need parental authorization to get the shots. Many parents don't believe in vaccination for themselves or their kids, so regardless of the supply and availability, they will not get the shots. Some kids between 12 and 16 may not be allowed to get the vaccine due to health reason.
On top of that, many adults that choose not to get the vaccine may decide that they no longer need the masks since other people already got the shots, and that kids will only get a "mild infection" if they catch the virus. So no big deal. So how are we supposed to know who got the shots and are fully vaccinated already? One thing that this pandemic brought to light is the selfishness and gullibility of many people. I lost trust in many of them.
In the US, my impression is that the bolded varies by state. Also, now that vaccines are available at pharmacies in many US locations, driving might not be necessary to get one. If kids live in a built-up area, it seems like there's a Walgreen's-CVS-RiteAid-etc. every few blocks, not to mention that big chain supermarkets with pharmacies are offering vaccinations in some places.
But I know that's not your main point, which I take to be what's in the 2nd paragraph. I don't disagree with that, though I try not to get stressed over things I can't control/influence. 🤷♀️
My youngest grandchildren are 11 and 13 and they live in a state where parental consent is needed to get the COVID vaccine. Even if they could get it without their parents’ approval, I know that they wouldn't do that and my son and his wife would not be happy about it if they did. Besides, the closest Walgreens is about 7 miles round trip from their house (no Rite-Aid or CVS in their state, at least not in their county). They don't drive, obviously, and there is not public transportation either. Not everybody lives in or near by a built-up area.
I agree with kimmy that it would have been better to wait another month to lift masks mandate in the states to give more people the chance to get the vaccines.
Florida is one of several states — including Texas, Mississippi, Kentucky, Georgia, Pennsylvania and Colorado — that require parental or legal guardian consent for vaccination in minors of all ages. Some states allow all minors to get any vaccine as they please without parental consent, such as Idaho, Washington and North Carolina.
Other states have more specific rules. For example, minors in South Carolina don’t need their parent’s permission to receive any vaccine as long as they are 16 or older. In Illinois and California, kids aged 12 and older don’t need consent to get the HPV or Hepatitis B vaccines, but do need it for all other shots.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article251385583.html5 -
The main concern I have about loosening precautions for those who are vaccinated is that people will forget ”easy” basics like social distancing. I’m pregnant and can’t get vaccinated, since pregnant women aren’t cleared here unless other high-risk factors are involved. While I won’t be attending concerts or other crowded situations, I also can’t avoid basic necessities like the grocery store and taking public transportation to medical appointments. I’d hate to see loosening mask requirements (legal or peer pressure) and things opening up leading to people forgetting social distancing and breathing on my neck while standing in line at the grocery store instead of forming the line 6 feet apart from others in the line.
I have no plans to attend crowded events and don’t expect mask mandates or mask recommendations to continue forever, but I sincerely hope polite social distancing from strangers where possible (like grocery stores and other ”daytime businesses”), hand hygiene and staying home when experiencing any flu symptoms becomes the norm.
Remember if you stand in front of your shopping cart (trolley) then you are in control of how close others can get to you.5 -
https://apnews.com/article/health-coronavirus-pandemic-government-and-politics-4f7d4efc08d6e826674be3bb583972b8
Top down mask practices in USA0 -
The main concern I have about loosening precautions for those who are vaccinated is that people will forget ”easy” basics like social distancing. I’m pregnant and can’t get vaccinated, since pregnant women aren’t cleared here unless other high-risk factors are involved. While I won’t be attending concerts or other crowded situations, I also can’t avoid basic necessities like the grocery store and taking public transportation to medical appointments. I’d hate to see loosening mask requirements (legal or peer pressure) and things opening up leading to people forgetting social distancing and breathing on my neck while standing in line at the grocery store instead of forming the line 6 feet apart from others in the line.
I have no plans to attend crowded events and don’t expect mask mandates or mask recommendations to continue forever, but I sincerely hope polite social distancing from strangers where possible (like grocery stores and other ”daytime businesses”), hand hygiene and staying home when experiencing any flu symptoms becomes the norm.
Remember if you stand in front of your shopping cart (trolley) then you are in control of how close others can get to you.
I never use a cart - I don’t have a car and can’t carry a cart’s worth of stuff back home even though it’s only a few minutes walk. If the neck breathers start reappearing, maybe I’ll have to start using a cart for the 1-2 days worth of groceries I buy at a time. The upside to having to visit the store every couple of days is that the store is open 24/7 and the walk there is measured in yards better than in miles (about 200 meters), so I can easily avoid rush hour.
Whenever I go there with my husband, I make him stand behind me while in line. He can breathe on my neck any time and block others from getting too close.
About vaccines and parental consent: here in Finland there’s a tricky balance between a child’s right to privacy and parental consent. The basic idea is that once a child is mature enough to decide about their own treatment, parental consent is no longer needed and they aren’t even allowed to see the child’s records without the child’s consent because medical records are private. I’m not sure if there’s a default age limit for that, but I think it’s generally somewhere around 12-14. I frequently hear my colleagues get frustrated when they can no longer access their children’s medical information after some birthday has passed, even if the child wants the parent to take care of their appointments and prescriptions, because they haven’t filled some consent form.
My personal experience, from what I remember, is that I started going to the orthodontist alone when I was probably 9 or 10 (including walking to the doctor’s office alone from school in the middle of the day, my parents just wrote my teacher a note that I need to leave at a certain time) and they did whatever they felt was the right next phase of treatment. My mom came in maybe twice in the 6 years after my post-dental surgery braces were put in, and only if there were some major new brace things that required supervised home maintenance. I got a booster tetanus shot from my elementary school nurse in 5th or 6th grade and while it’s possible my parents had sent in a consent form, they weren’t present and I wasn’t aware of getting the shot until the day it happened. I did a high school exchange year in the US when I was 16, and got all vaccinations, lab work etc done independently through my high school nurse, I’m pretty sure my mom never signed any medical consent forms. When I returned at 17, the same nurse prescribed my first birth control pills and I know for a fact my parents weren’t consulted at any point of that, although the nurse did recommend telling my parents if I felt comfortable doing so.
This was a stark contrast to my US exchange - I had taken care of my own medication and medical appointments independently for years at that point, but in the US I had to take the basic OTC painkillers I used for headaches and period pains to be stored with the school nurse, and my exchange mom had to sign a special permission slip that I can go and get them independently without the nurse needing to call my exchange mom for permission every time. In Finland, our high school teachers sometimes asked students if anyone was carrying those same painkillers if they got a headache, and usually multiple students offered. In the US I wasn’t allowed to leave school in the middle of the day without family picking me up or calling at time of departure to confirm - as said, in Finland a written note from parent was enough at 9 years old. Places and cultures can be very different.9 -
@hipari I know this is off topic, but had to say I hope you enjoyed your year in the US. We had an exchange student from Sweden live with us for a school year. It was a great experience .4
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SuzySunshine99 wrote: »I've been thinking about something that may make me sound like a jerk...
I keep hearing fully vaccinated people saying that they are continuing to take all the precautions that they took pre-vaccine, so they can "protect the unvaccinated".
In the U.S., everyone over 12 years old has the opportunity to get vaccinated. There are no supply problems, and most providers no longer require an appointment, you can just walk in.
If you are over 12 years old in the U.S., and you are not vaccinated, then that is a choice you have made. You are choosing to put yourself at risk. What lengths am I supposed to go to in order to protect you?
I fully understand that there are immunocompromised people out there, and that is why I will continue to wear my mask and keep my distance in essential businesses, like grocery stores, the post office, etc. However, I must assume that immunocompromised people would not put themselves in large, unmasked crowds, like concerts or crowded restaurants. That was true before Covid if you were receiving immunotherapy.
I also wear my mask and keep distance from kids that are too young to be vaccinated.
But for adults...It sounds callous when I type this out, but if you choose not to protect yourself, I have little appetite for doing it for you.
I guess I'm just sick of hearing the vaccine excuses.
I'm vaccinated, and I never considered being in the "take-precautions-to-protect-the-unvaccinated-people" group.
I'm in the in the "take-precautions-because-vaccines-are-not-100%-and-who-knows-how-many-people-near-me-who-claim-to-be-vaccinated-truly-are" group.11 -
Count me in the camp with those thinking about 2 broad groups of situations:
- essential places like grocery stores, pharmacies, health care offices, public transportation. Vulnerable people may have to go those places. Mask wearing in those places will protect vulnerable people -- not so much from vaccinated people but from other unvaccinated people who are more likely to be potential covid spreaders. But who knows who is vaccinated? So it's logical for everyone to wear masks, and I'm willing to do that more as a courtesy than as a preventative measure. It's a hypothetical thought experiment, though, because my state forbids local mask ordinances and few people wear them. It's unfortunate for the vulnerable.
- entertainment venues like restaurants, bars, arts/sports events. Vulnerable people can avoid these places. If they go, they are making the decision and taking the risk for themselves. I do not feel obligated to protect them. Since being fully vaccinated, I've been to restaurants a couple times and one crowded party, and I was comfortable without a mask in those situations.
I am concerned about workers, though. Unemployment in many areas of the US is still high, and vulnerable people may have a hard time finding safe jobs. A vulnerable restaurant worker with little experience in anything else may have a hard time balancing health & financial needs.10 -
Where I am, public transit and most private business (like grocery stores and my favorite gardening store) require masks inside. I follow the rules, so I wear them there. I assume one has to take off the mask in restaurants (here you are supposed to have them on when interacting with servers), but I haven't been to one yet. Not movies either, but plan to go to one soon. Tried to get really limited CSO tickets, but didn't act fast enough, and so far no plays open, but again will follow the rules.
I don't think unemployment is a real issue in that many jobs that need people can't find people.3 -
I would like to see masks become the norm during flu season. Going a full year without catching a cold or the flu has been a positive.19
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Where I am, public transit and most private business (like grocery stores and my favorite gardening store) require masks inside. I follow the rules, so I wear them there. I assume one has to take off the mask in restaurants (here you are supposed to have them on when interacting with servers), but I haven't been to one yet. Not movies either, but plan to go to one soon. Tried to get really limited CSO tickets, but didn't act fast enough, and so far no plays open, but again will follow the rules.
I don't think unemployment is a real issue in that many jobs that need people can't find people.
Well . . . yeah, many jobs can't find people, and the number of unemployed people is similar to the number of jobs seeking people. Some of the matching problem is things like location & skills, certainly. But I think @ahoy_m8 has a point, looking at the situation from the point of view of a lower-skilled/lower-educated but maybe vulnerable person (vaxed but potentially low response to vax because of health conditions, say; or actually allergic to vax components).
Being able to find a job is not identical to being able to find a reasonably safe job, in places where transmission rates are still worrisome, but masking/distancing requirements are being dropped. I have no idea how many people are in that situation, but personally I sure have a lot more sympathy and concern for them, than I do for people who are refusing to be vaccinated.6 -
I would like to see masks become the norm during flu season. Going a full year without catching a cold or the flu has been a positive.
Yeah, the flu incidence and death numbers look like they'll be very substantially lower (maybe an order of magnitude), too, compared to recent previous seasons, though the numbers are only preliminary at this point. Of course, pandemic skeptics have argued that flu cases/deaths have been miscounted as Covid cases/deaths, so that's an unwinnable argument. 😉
US data:
Current season estimates: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm
Past season data/estimates: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html
A readable analysis by a news/research source: https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2021/03/30/flu-season
Quote from the 2nd link:FluSurv-NET sites reported a cumulative hospitalization rate of 0.8 per 100,000 population, which is about one-tenth the rate of the low-severity 2011-2012 season.
Possible flies in the ointment, from the 3rd link:
and". . . the lack of a 2020-21 flu season means that scientists have little data to create effective vaccines in anticipation of the 2021-22 flu season."Some experts have voiced concerns about the upcoming flu season in the context of a "pandemic-weary country," Politico reports—especially if a highly effective flu vaccine can't be developed. For instance, Lawrence Gostin, a global health law professor at Georgetown University, said as country starts to fully emerge from the pandemic, "we may have a combination of low public health measures at the population level with a low effectiveness vaccine," potentially resulting in "a raging flu season next year."
If that raging flu season happens, some will take that as evidence proving that numbers of flu cases this season were miscounted as Covid, I'd expect.6 -
I would like to see masks become the norm during flu season. Going a full year without catching a cold or the flu has been a positive.
I've worn a mask as prescribed by local rules during 'Rona.
I'm not buying into wearing one every year during whatever is considered "flu season". Most people didn't catch the flu or cold because they didn't go anywhere in the 2020-21 flu season. I've had a flu shot annually since the early '90s and never had the flu before that. MAYBE one cold for a couple days a year. Not worth masking for IMO.13 -
I, too, greatly enjoyed a winter free of many illnesses! I loathe stomach bugs (pretty sure you could classify me as emetophobic), and with 4 children in a relatively small space it’s never fun. Knock on wood, haven’t had one in a while! I’ll take it! I do hope this will make people more aware of sharing germs. I know too many people/families that don’t think it’s a huge deal to go places or do things with active symptoms or even known illnesses and it is infuriating to me! And they don’t even tel you until it comes up in conversation!! Sure, there are those times where symptoms don’t start until later, we have had that happen before and I always feel awful, but it’s not intentional. This has at least made it a bit more of a stigma to do that... hopefully that will continue on into next sick season so people will be aware and respectful and KEEP IT TO THEMSELVES!8
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »I would like to see masks become the norm during flu season. Going a full year without catching a cold or the flu has been a positive.
I've worn a mask as prescribed by local rules during 'Rona.
I'm not buying into wearing one every year during whatever is considered "flu season". Most people didn't catch the flu or cold because they didn't go anywhere in the 2020-21 flu season. I've had a flu shot annually since the early '90s and never had the flu before that. MAYBE one cold for a couple days a year. Not worth masking for IMO.
Is this why the disagrees on my post? I didn't mean make it mandatory. Instead, make it an acceptable choice for anyone to wear with an extra dose of approval if they wear one when they have a cold. I plan on wearing one this fall/winter, not just for protection but for keeping out the freezing air.
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SuzySunshine99 wrote: »I've been thinking about something that may make me sound like a jerk...
I keep hearing fully vaccinated people saying that they are continuing to take all the precautions that they took pre-vaccine, so they can "protect the unvaccinated".
In the U.S., everyone over 12 years old has the opportunity to get vaccinated. There are no supply problems, and most providers no longer require an appointment, you can just walk in.
If you are over 12 years old in the U.S., and you are not vaccinated, then that is a choice you have made. You are choosing to put yourself at risk. What lengths am I supposed to go to in order to protect you?
I fully understand that there are immunocompromised people out there, and that is why I will continue to wear my mask and keep my distance in essential businesses, like grocery stores, the post office, etc. However, I must assume that immunocompromised people would not put themselves in large, unmasked crowds, like concerts or crowded restaurants. That was true before Covid if you were receiving immunotherapy.
I also wear my mask and keep distance from kids that are too young to be vaccinated.
But for adults...It sounds callous when I type this out, but if you choose not to protect yourself, I have little appetite for doing it for you.
I guess I'm just sick of hearing the vaccine excuses.
I agree. I got the vaccine, so I will go maskless. I am very unlikely to get the virus, and don't see the point of wearing a mask. If I'm not going to get it, why wear a mask "to protect the unvaccinated" when I won't have the virus anyway? If people choose not to get the vaccine, that's fine, won't affect me, and I have no sympathy for those who choose not to get it for whatever ridiculous reason. They are the ones that will get covid and end up getting really sick potentially. Even if I fall in the 5% that it doesn't work on, I still won't get it as bad.
Those that can't get vaccinated already have to be very careful, and I assume they will continue to be.
My thoughts also. I will wear a mask where the business or ordinance requires it. Wal-Mart, Dollar General, and others no longer require masks for vaccinated customers. I realize many unvaccinated customers will take advantage of this, but these are the same people who never wore a mask even when Wal-Mart policy required it for everyone (but never enforced masks). I am already protecting those other customers plenty by being vaccinated. I also am protecting myself, so not really as concerned as when I couldn't do much tobprtect myself and had to rely almost entirely upon strangers to behave appropriately.6 -
Some seem to be confused why we got the vaccine. Fully vaccinated we still can get covid-19. Hopefully it just won't kill us or put us in the hospital. Recently we had three people in an area hospital with covid-19. All three had been fully vaccinated and 30 days post the second shot.13
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Some seem to be confused why we got the vaccine. Fully vaccinated we still can get covid-19. Hopefully it just won't kill us or put us in the hospital. Recently we had three people in an area hospital with covid-19. All three had been fully vaccinated and 30 days post the second shot.
Of course you still can - nobody is claiming the vaccine is perfect.
However your chances of doing so are greatly reduced and severity of disease likely to be much reduced if you do.
Not sure what you think anyone is confused about?9 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »I would like to see masks become the norm during flu season. Going a full year without catching a cold or the flu has been a positive.
I've worn a mask as prescribed by local rules during 'Rona.
I'm not buying into wearing one every year during whatever is considered "flu season". Most people didn't catch the flu or cold because they didn't go anywhere in the 2020-21 flu season. I've had a flu shot annually since the early '90s and never had the flu before that. MAYBE one cold for a couple days a year. Not worth masking for IMO.
Is this why the disagrees on my post? I didn't mean make it mandatory. Instead, make it an acceptable choice for anyone to wear with an extra dose of approval if they wear one when they have a cold. I plan on wearing one this fall/winter, not just for protection but for keeping out the freezing air.
I think people are just tired of wearing masks and don't even want to think ahead to the next flu season. Perhaps we'll just naturally see people wearing them, especially if they have a cold and need to go out. However that's to be seen.7
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