Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
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Some vegatarians (not all) seem to take their views from a religious tangent. That we all know sometimes eliminates the need for logic, rational thought or scientific evidence. It's a way of not having to address constructive debate on the issue and allows them to yell while their hands are over their ears.0
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I don't know about you guys, but this just convinced me to go vegan. Death to all non believers!http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/829One of the world's most celebrated vegetarians was Adolph Hitler. In "Hitler's Table Talk," a compendium of his conversations, he is recorded as having said:
"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
According to the website www.vegetariansareevil.com, the following mass murderers were vegetarian: Pol Pot, the notorious dictator of Cambodia; Charles Manson; and Ghenghis Khan. Additionally, William MacDonald, Australia's most famous serial killer, was said to be vegetarian.
Dutch vegan Volkert van der Graf was a notorious militant animal rights activist convicted in the assassination of Dutch journalist Pym Fortuyn.
Being vegatarian doesn't automatically put you into some higher than thou classifcation.
Wrong. Although I am probably one of the few vegetarians who will say that to meat eaters.0 -
The book is Pollan's In Defense of Food. The topic subject is great - it has drawn quite a discussion!0
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I've never had Bambi come up to me and ask me not to shoot his father. Nor have I seen thumper crying himself to sleep at night when I ate one of his brothers or sisters. Either I am remarkably unobservant or some people are just remarkably adept at giving human emotions and feelings to animals that don't actually experience such feelings and emotions.
I saw one of those wildlife shows on Nature once about leopards. A baby leopard was killed (not by man) and the mother sat in a field and cried for it for almost 24 hours. No hunting, no drinking, just sat their crying out for the little one, It was heart breaking. :sad:0 -
I think there is science on each side that is used to argue each case. However, I do think morally there is a part of eating meat that meat-eaters feel slightly defensive about. EVERY time by family and friends that I have been asked WHY VEGAN? And I explained why I, me myself personally, choose not to eat meat--- I always find that they get really defensive. I dont ever say anything about their choice just why its not right for me. So I do think there is truth in meat eaters often being a bit defensive and maybe a bit of a guilty concience to be reminded that we slaughter an animal... an animal that could be our domesticated pet... or something someone might have feelings or or could feel for emotionally. BUT does it make it right or wrong? I think its wrong to eat meat... but I do respect free choice and I do respect people who dont argue the case defensively but rather on why they do. It might be as simple as "I just grew up eating meat and I just like it. it's a part of my diet and always has been. I don't really think about the morality of it." And if thats the case... at least its an honest answer and not "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE EATING PLANT FOODS." Truth is... I really do believe we are, or have been evolved to be omnivores. We could survive on either side of the dial... with health risks on both sides. What we should really be concerned about is rather the food industry and how they are poisoning us with horomones and chemicals and fake byproducts. THATS the bigger issue in my opinion.
Agreed! And I think you're right about the defensive thing. From my own perspective, it's not until someone like a vegetarian or vegan actively brings it to my attention that meat is literally harvested, quite often in nasty conditions, that I really think about it. As i have been recently. There is a little bit of sadness there that most of these animals lived short and miserable lives for the sake of being food. But It's not something i'd go out of my way for to try and change. So yes, a little bit defensive in that respect. But also there's the feeling of being attacked by those who literally claim that they're better than you because they don't eat meat. There are very few of those people though.0 -
The book is Pollan's In Defense of Food. The topic subject is great - it has drawn quite a discussion!
Maybe the book I read quoted that then. I know i've heard it somewhere and it's a brilliant quote.0 -
My view is more of a religious one. The good Lord created the earth and all manner of creatures in it. He placed man upon earth and gave man dominion over all creatures. This, to me, says that the Lord made animals to nourish and sustain man. Not eating meat goes against God's plan.
Is that what dominion over the creatures means? If you babysit for my kids, you have dominion over my kids. Does that mean you can eat them?
o_O
What do you mean you don't gnaw on your kids? My kid gets gnawed on every day.
love bites
Yes, you can expect to come home to gnawed on children should I ever baby sit yours.
EDIT: Don't worry though. I'm up to date on all of my shots.0 -
Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.
again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.
Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.
Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.
Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.
Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.
I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.
I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.
Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?0 -
I've never had Bambi come up to me and ask me not to shoot his father. Nor have I seen thumper crying himself to sleep at night when I ate one of his brothers or sisters. Either I am remarkably unobservant or some people are just remarkably adept at giving human emotions and feelings to animals that don't actually experience such feelings and emotions.
I saw one of those wildlife shows on Nature once about leopards. A baby leopard was killed (not by man) and the mother sat in a field and cried for it for almost 24 hours. No hunting, no drinking, just sat their crying out for the little one, It was heart breaking. :sad:
I was watching a show called Fox Live (something like that) - a live show about foxes *captain obvious*, and it showed a mother and her new babies. the babies died one by one during the night (for no apparent reason) and it was just so so sad seeing the mother desperately trying to revive them and then having to take them and bury them away from the other babies.0 -
I like to sum it up with Michael Pollan's tag line to _In Defense of Food_: "Eat [real] food, not too much, mostly plants," which allows for a much more nuanced discussion of food ethics and healthy eating.
Oh! I'm trying to remember where that quote came from. Was it the 'Food Rules' book? Because that was brilliant. And, yes, although this should probably be about how to balance a diet, I named it as it is due to my recent encounter with some vegans. Thanks for bringing the topic back into the right direction though.
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The book is Pollan's In Defense of Food. The topic subject is great - it has drawn quite a discussion0 -
Coconut oil does not cholesterol in it but it is a totally saturated fat. There is a beleif that it may increase your cholesterol.No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.
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I agree about it being personal choice, but there is vegan nutritional yeast, which is grown on molasses, that has B12. Or there are B12 supplements.
I think Marmite and Vegamite have high levels of B12. Never tried it myself but apparently it's used as a spread.
Where would one get cholesterol supplements that aren't animal based though?
Hehe, cholesterol supplements. And that's true. Don't we get all of our cholesterol from animals? Or can that be found in plants too?
There is no cholesterol in plants. Your body makes "good" cholesterol. Animal products are considered to have "bad" cholesterol. I don't know an instance where you would actually take a cholesterol supplement. It would probably be something to aid in the function of producing cholesterol and not a direct source.
I really don't know much about cholesterol at all. All I know is that we do need it.
Coconut oil
Thank you!
But like someone else has pointed out, your body can make it so likely don't need to supplement anyway.0 -
My view is more of a religious one. The good Lord created the earth and all manner of creatures in it. He placed man upon earth and gave man dominion over all creatures. This, to me, says that the Lord made animals to nourish and sustain man. Not eating meat goes against God's plan.
That's really interesting. I sort of assumed that the religious view would be NOT to harm any living thing?
I am guessing god wouldn't be happy with factory farming....that is, if he is all loving as people say.0 -
I've never had Bambi come up to me and ask me not to shoot his father. Nor have I seen thumper crying himself to sleep at night when I ate one of his brothers or sisters. Either I am remarkably unobservant or some people are just remarkably adept at giving human emotions and feelings to animals that don't actually experience such feelings and emotions.
I saw one of those wildlife shows on Nature once about leopards. A baby leopard was killed (not by man) and the mother sat in a field and cried for it for almost 24 hours. No hunting, no drinking, just sat their crying out for the little one, It was heart breaking. :sad:
I was watching a show called Fox Live (something like that) - a live show about foxes *captain obvious*, and it showed a mother and her new babies. the babies died one by one during the night (for no apparent reason) and it was just so so sad seeing the mother desperately trying to revive them and then having to take them and bury them away from the other babies.
I agree. Nature is cruel. So we didn't have to be. While we can't interview animals about whether they feel love, loss, grief, joy, fear and hopelessness, we can see evidence through their behavior that they are likely to experience one or more of these emotions. Unquestionably, they feel pain.0 -
the main argument is this: ONLY animal based foods contain vitamin B12. B12 deficiency is one of the leading causes of dementia in elderly adults and is one of the key "brain foods" we consume. you can supplement it, sure, but i'm just sayin'.
THis is completely false, there are plant based ways to get B12 if you actually do some research and eat a varied diet.
I am Vegan, take no supplements and have no issues with protein, iron and B12 defficiencies.
It's a total marketing gimmick to say that eating meat is the only way to get complete nutrition, if you look into it it's the meat and dairy industries who fund all these studies. Wonder why they'd come up with those finding, cause they want your money.
The last time Ilooked in to this subject, the websites that promoted veganism all suggested that Vit B12 could be an issue and suggested that vegans make sure they are getting a source of VB12 (such as Marmite). I don't think that they wanted my money or were marketing a gimmick.
My understanding is that people can get Vit B12 from eggs and dairy products as well, so it's less of an issue for vegetarians that consume thosee products.0 -
I've never had Bambi come up to me and ask me not to shoot his father. Nor have I seen thumper crying himself to sleep at night when I ate one of his brothers or sisters. Either I am remarkably unobservant or some people are just remarkably adept at giving human emotions and feelings to animals that don't actually experience such feelings and emotions.
I saw one of those wildlife shows on Nature once about leopards. A baby leopard was killed (not by man) and the mother sat in a field and cried for it for almost 24 hours. No hunting, no drinking, just sat their crying out for the little one, It was heart breaking. :sad:
I was watching a show called Fox Live (something like that) - a live show about foxes *captain obvious*, and it showed a mother and her new babies. the babies died one by one during the night (for no apparent reason) and it was just so so sad seeing the mother desperately trying to revive them and then having to take them and bury them away from the other babies.
I agree. Nature is cruel. So we didn't have to be. While we can't interview animals about whether they feel love, loss, grief, joy, fear and hopelessness, we can see evidence through their behavior that they are likely to experience one or more of these emotions. Unquestionably, they feel pain.
It does annoy me when people say that animals are inferior because they can't communicate and think like we do etc. etc. Such rubbish. You have absolutely no idea what another HUMAN is thinking so how could you possibly make such a bold statement like this? They are probably much less capable of abstract thought and a few other things due to smaller frontal lobes. But it doesn't mean that they can't do any of this at all.0 -
Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.0 -
Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.
Are you going to address the post he replied to?Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization/b].
Or are you agreeing with that statement?
People need understand the context of people's replies before flying off the handle.0 -
Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.
It was a very drastic, and yes offensive statement to make. This person was TRYING to say that just because someone is a vegetarian/vegan, doesn't make them a better person than someone who eats meat.0 -
Animals get b-12 through what they eat…it is in the soil…the animals are eating the soil along with the plants from the ground. I don’t know how much b-12 there is in factory farmed meats.
B-12…nutritional yeast flakes and fortified food products…not an issue for vegans.0 -
Animals get b-12 through what they eat…it is in the soil…the animals are eating the soil along with the plants from the ground. I don’t know how much b-12 there is in factory farmed meats.
B-12…nutritional yeast flakes and fortified food products…not an issue for vegans.
Apparently i'm intolerant to yeast. I wonder if this includes nutritional yeast
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Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.
Are you going to address the post he replied to?Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization/b].
Or are you agreeing with that statement?
People need understand the context of people's replies before flying off the handle.
I didn't fly off the handle. I get the context and it was still a little offensive.
If you want me to address the above comment I disagree with the poster and as a person with a MA in Forensic Counseling I'd like to think I am knowlegeable. We don't always have detailed information about all the actions of serial killers prior to thier first discovered kill. Happy? Maybe someone who was offened by it should have said so... but I can't speak for everyone only myself and the comment didn't apply to me.0 -
Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.
Are you going to address the post he replied to?Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization/b].
Or are you agreeing with that statement?
People need understand the context of people's replies before flying off the handle.
I didn't fly off the handle. I get the context and it was still a little offensive.
If you want me to address the above comment I disagree with the poster and as a person with a MA in Forensic Counseling I'd like to think I am knowlegeable. We don't always have detailed information about all the actions of serial killers prior to thier first discovered kill. Happy? Maybe someone who was offened by it should have said so... but I can't speak for everyone only myself and the comment didn't apply to me.
Point of original commenter = all serial killers are meat eaters and hunters! That's why eating meat is bad!
Point of counter pointer = some of history's worst serial killers didn't eat meat.
Point of you = took the counter pointer's comments out of context and came to some unusual conclusions. The counter pointer was NOT trying to say vegetarians or art students are bad beause they don't eat mean or are artists.0 -
Ok well have fun arguing with yourself.0
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Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.
It was a very drastic, and yes offensive statement to make. This person was TRYING to say that just because someone is a vegetarian/vegan, doesn't make them a better person than someone who eats meat.
I am going a bit out on a limb here on this issue of moral superiority to say some behaviors are more laudatory than others. Some examples: The volunteer fireman who risks his life to save people from disaster: Way better than me in assuming personal risk to help others and showing amazing civic responsibility. The teacher who devotes extra time after her school to struggling students: way better than me in caring for those who struggle acquiring new knowledge. The person who sits with a hospice patient and listens to their hard realities: way better than me in suspending her fear of death to help another person. Are these people 'better' than me? I think in those discrete ways they are.0 -
Ok well have fun arguing with yourself.
Do you work in Forensic Counseling? I'm most interested in the counseling / forensic side of Psychology that i'm studying
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Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.
If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.
It was a very drastic, and yes offensive statement to make. This person was TRYING to say that just because someone is a vegetarian/vegan, doesn't make them a better person than someone who eats meat.
I am going a bit out on a limb here on this issue of moral superiority to say some behaviors are more laudatory than others. Some examples: The volunteer fireman who risks his life to save people from disaster: Way better than me in assuming personal risk to help others and showing amazing civic responsibility. The teacher who devotes extra time after her school to struggling students: way better than me in caring for those who struggle acquiring new knowledge. The person who sits with a hospice patient and listens to their hard realities: way better than me in suspending her fear of death to help another person. Are these people 'better' than me? I think in those discrete ways they are.
I think this makes a good point. Morals are very dependent on the individual.0 -
The only LOGICAL conclusion to hunting is dinner.
I often wondered what people like you would think and do if the earth were actually invaded by aliens who hunted and ate humans. Would your arguments be the same? If not why would they be different. Explain why us hunting animals is good but creatures who are more powerful than us eating us is bad. I'd really like to hear this.
Why don't we spin this another way, then. The same scenario - what would YOU do if something was hostile and trying to eat you? I feel that it is the circle of life. One thing is eaten by another thing, is eaten by bigger thing... Deer don't want to be eaten by us as we don't want to be eaten by sharks. But that's how a food chain goes.
So you would accept it? You wouldn't see ANYTHING unjust about it or unfair. You would just shrug your shoulders while you watched your family get killed and eaten? Assuming you could talk to them you wouldn't try to convince them that what they were doing was immoral?
Of course not. Where did I say that i'd stand by and watch? And i'm sure, if this did happen, we'd react the same as any other animal and run as far and as fast as possible due to survival instinct. I find it amusing to imagine myself prodding an alien in the shoulder whilst it eats my family, in an attempt to get it's attention long enough for me to explain what it was doing was immoral.
Ok this chain is ridiculous. We are talking about naturally existing species that fit in to the food chain. And you are trying to make a comparision with a foreign species just sublpanted into our world??? Humans didn't pop up from out of no where and take over. We evolved (great now I probably opened up THAT debate). A better question would be what if some other species evolved and passed us on the food chain, how would we feel about being their meat. Aliens are off the table if you want to make a logical point.0 -
Ok well have fun arguing with yourself.
Do you work in Forensic Counseling? I'm most interested in the counseling / forensic side of Psychology that i'm studying
Yes. Until the end of June anyway (going to law school in August). I am working with a doctor who is testing part of the prison population so, I do interviews and administer tests like personality tests, "trigger" tests, drug use questionaires, etc...
ETA: If you have questions feel free to msg me.0 -
This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.
Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.0 -
The only LOGICAL conclusion to hunting is dinner.
I often wondered what people like you would think and do if the earth were actually invaded by aliens who hunted and ate humans. Would your arguments be the same? If not why would they be different. Explain why us hunting animals is good but creatures who are more powerful than us eating us is bad. I'd really like to hear this.
Why don't we spin this another way, then. The same scenario - what would YOU do if something was hostile and trying to eat you? I feel that it is the circle of life. One thing is eaten by another thing, is eaten by bigger thing... Deer don't want to be eaten by us as we don't want to be eaten by sharks. But that's how a food chain goes.
So you would accept it? You wouldn't see ANYTHING unjust about it or unfair. You would just shrug your shoulders while you watched your family get killed and eaten? Assuming you could talk to them you wouldn't try to convince them that what they were doing was immoral?
Of course not. Where did I say that i'd stand by and watch? And i'm sure, if this did happen, we'd react the same as any other animal and run as far and as fast as possible due to survival instinct. I find it amusing to imagine myself prodding an alien in the shoulder whilst it eats my family, in an attempt to get it's attention long enough for me to explain what it was doing was immoral.
Ok this chain is ridiculous. We are talking about naturally existing species that fit in to the food chain. And you are trying to make a comparision with a foreign species just sublpanted into our world??? Humans didn't pop up from out of no where and take over. We evolved (great now I probably opened up THAT debate). A better question would be what if some other species evolved and passed us on the food chain, how would we feel about being their meat. Aliens are off the table if you want to make a logical point.
Absolutely regardless of what it was that was attacking humans, the second in this chain of quotes seems to insist that we can verbally convince another species that it's wrong to eat us. Quite simply, if another species evolved to be bigger, smarter, stronger and more deadly than humans then we'd fight to survive and either dwindle greatly in population or go extinct.0
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