All calories may not be equal
Replies
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He isn't eating enough to support gaining mass. I've had this same discussion with skinny guys who train a million times. Until they actually track how much they eat, they really don't have any idea. Many times I see guys claiming they eat a lot, then when calorie counts come out, they are eating 2500-3000 calories. Now that may seem a lot, but for an active teen/20 year old male, that's usually just maintenance.I guess my skinny boy secretly starved himself? Not! He is still working hard to gain. He is frustrated because he is weight training and having trouble putting on mass.
If he ate just a large pizza 4 times a day (even if it was just cheese), he'd gain weight.
This coming from a former skinny kid who became a bodybuilder and found out I needed to eat 4,000+ calories to put on mass.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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The son who wants to gain appears to have a really high basal metabolic rate.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10326769/are-you-a-hard-gainer-please-read#latest
That might be a helpful thread for your son. Lots of high calorie food options in there. But as a growing child, their metabolic rates are going to be a lot higher. When we generally talk metabolism, we are speaking in terms of grown adults.3 -
Thanks0
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Metabolism also plays a part:
https://www.sharecare.com/health/metabolism-and-weight-loss/how-does-metabolism-influence-weight-loss
Metabolism accounts for 60-75% (and in some cases maybe more) of your calories burned. Muscle is directly tied to metabolism. The more muscle one has, the greater their metabolic expenditure. And for every 1lb of muscle gained, an additional 4-6 calories per day are burnt. And as many people age, they tend to lose muscle which can be contributed to a lot of factors (inactivity, poor diets, etc..).
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He isn't eating enough to support gaining mass. I've had this same discussion with skinny guys who train a million times. Until they actually track how much they eat, they really don't have any idea. Many times I see guys claiming they eat a lot, then when calorie counts come out, they are eating 2500-3000 calories. Now that may seem a lot, but for an active teen/20 year old male, that's usually just maintenance.I guess my skinny boy secretly starved himself? Not! He is still working hard to gain. He is frustrated because he is weight training and having trouble putting on mass.
If he ate just a large pizza 4 times a day (even if it was just cheese), he'd gain weight.
This coming from a former skinny kid who became a bodybuilder and found out I needed to eat 4,000+ calories to put on mass.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Thanks! He will be happy to know that there is still hope to gain muscle mass and bulk.0 -
He isn't eating enough to support gaining mass. I've had this same discussion with skinny guys who train a million times. Until they actually track how much they eat, they really don't have any idea. Many times I see guys claiming they eat a lot, then when calorie counts come out, they are eating 2500-3000 calories. Now that may seem a lot, but for an active teen/20 year old male, that's usually just maintenance.I guess my skinny boy secretly starved himself? Not! He is still working hard to gain. He is frustrated because he is weight training and having trouble putting on mass.
If he ate just a large pizza 4 times a day (even if it was just cheese), he'd gain weight.
This coming from a former skinny kid who became a bodybuilder and found out I needed to eat 4,000+ calories to put on mass.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Thanks!
To build on to niner. If you spend time in the gaining weight section, there is a thread about fast metabolisms almost every day (the opposite of GD&WL). Interestingly enough, when they document how many calories they are eating, they fall within the standard deviation. In the few years I have been in that section, anecdotally, only one guy had a fast metabolism (diagnosed hyperthyroidism) and one had a malabsorption issue which is another ball game.1 -
I would think 4000+ calories is a lot, though. Wouldn't that indicate a good calorie burn rate?0
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He does like high adrenaline sports. Okay. He probably does need more. But what comes first, good metabolism and desire for sports or vice versa? Could I up my TDEE calories to 3000 from 1700?0 -
stevencloser wrote: »grinning_chick wrote: »You must have never tried/will never try to cook any of the recipes Modernist Cuisine puts out. Or lurked the uber-serious baking forums to scrape recipes/troubleshoot baking problems. Everything is in grams and/or Baker's percentages.
I understood @stevencloser to be joking. Perhaps because he is, or perhaps because of my time in restaurants in which the bakers used food scales.
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gonetothedogs19 wrote: »xjessicaxrx wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »Maxematics wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »DancingDaffydils wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »MissusMoon wrote: »xjessicaxrx wrote: »Let me be clear, the OCD comment was aimed at those who stress over weighing a pre-packaged, single serving yogurt just incase the calories are off by +/- 5-10kcal. Those who weigh restaurant food and pick apart meals "just incase".
Counting calories is one thing but that is just not normal behaviour.
If I weren't weighing my food, I would be eating at least 200 more calories more than I should every day. Slices of bread, cups of yogurt, packaged food that says it has "about 1.5 servings" that really has more than three. I'm far from OCD, but yeah, I'm going to weigh all of that--because having lost 75lbs is better than not.
The receptionist at my physical therapist's office and I got to talking. She used to be obese. She has peanut butter and apples for breakfast, and still weighs it all out. She's not OCD either. She's doing what she needs to do to maintain her healthy weight. Over five years and counting.
Labeling people with a mental condition because you don't understand why they do what they do is ridiculous.
If you have reached your goal weight, and five years later you are still counting every calorie and weighing and measuring everything you eat, it is OCD.
God forbid you gain two pounds. Guess what? You can start counting again and lose the two pounds.
You are clueless about OCD and you have no business speaking about it. At this point I think you are purposely being disrespectful.
I mean no disrespect and I do not mean to be argumentative. It is just beyond my comprehension that a healthy person who works out and has reached the correct weight by counting, weighing and measuring, would continue to count, weigh and measure meal after meal after meal, year after year after year.
Just enjoy your food. Weigh yourself every day. I guarantee that nothing bad will happen to you other than gaining two pounds, which you can lose right away by counting, measuring and weighing.
Sorry, but I do not understand the obsession. And it is, in my opinion, an obsession.
There is a different between a habit and an obsession. There is a difference between a choice and a compulsion. There is a difference between having an obsession or a compulsion and having obsessive compulsive disorder. There is a difference between choosing to weigh and stressing about weighing. There is a difference between stressing about weighing and having obsessive compulsive disorder. Until you understand any of these differences, you need to stop throwing diagnoses around like they're Mardi Gras beads.
OK, here is my new diagnosis - it's odd.
You know what I think is odd? Someone who claims they ate more than all of their college friends and never gained weight. Someone who claims they can recall everything both them and their friends ate when they were in college over 30 years ago. I knew I remembered you. I remember calling you out in that other thread for having problems with a food scale and you said you didn't. I apologized for being mistaken. Now I'm annoyed that I apologized for that because you clearly do.
That's right. Almost 6' 1", 145 lbs., no exercise other than walking to class (like everyone else), and eating like a horse. That's me! Thanks for remembering.
And by the way, it's called a fast metabolism. I'm sure you have heard of that term.
My brother was like that. He was 6'3", 145 pounds, and ate like a horse. So I tend to think that certain individuals do have higher "engine" speeds and fast metabolisms.
I'll save the others from responding. This is a typical canned response:
- You weren't with him all the time. How do you know he wasn't running five miles everyday?
- You say he ate lie a "horse." What does that mean? You weren't counting his calories. And maybe he only ate like a horse when you were with him, and he didn't eat the rest of the day.
Something like that. In other words, the posters here who never met your brother, know more about him than you do.
He grew up with me. So I do know. As soon as my mom brought in groceries he was climbing on the counter as a child and eating up food. He kept the fast metabolism into teens and adulthood.
Did you weigh, measure, and log every morsel of food he ate???
See. I told you! This is the canned response. Did you weigh, measure and log his food?
Because you didn't, how dare you comment on his metabolism!!!
I think people don't want to acknowledge that some people are more efficient burning calories.
How dare you! Hahaha thats gota be the best comment on here
Okay, I'll bite....but only because I think the point is being misunderstood in superfluous barbs.
...
If someone is losing weight quickly, or eating boatloads of food and not gaining weight, or they not losing weight when they are sure they are eating at a calorie deficit, they need to go to the doctor to be checked for a medical issue.
My brother was a healthy child and burned calories quickly. He had a hard time gaining even when he ate a lot. One of my three boys is like my brother in that he can eat tremendous quantities of food and remains very low BMI and little body fat, , the youngest child is obese, and the oldest is normal weight.
Makes sense to me. Except to most of the posters here.
Get ready:
You're not weighing and measuring their food, so you can't make this statement.
Your skinny son fidgets more than your other sons. And he's secretly training to run a 10K.
Your obese son is using his allowance to secretly purchase packages of Oreo cookies, which he eats when you are not around. And unlike your skinny son, he does not fidget.
Of course I'm kidding/exaggerating. But it is beyond my belief that most here will not accept that you just happen to have three sons with different metabolisms, that has resulted in vastly different outcomes.
To add input from the other side of this matter:
My mom talks about how my siblings had higher metabolisms than I did, because she fed us all the same things in the same amount, yet I alone ended up obese while the others are slim.
What actually happened? I snuck food behind her back when I was a child/teenager.
I'm the one child that had crazy growth spurts and ended up almost a full foot taller than the others, yet I'm the only one not slim. Because I ate in a huge calorie surplus without her knowing.
Starting around puberty, I snuck food too.0 -
He does like high adrenaline sports. Okay. He probably does need more. But what comes first, good metabolism and desire for sports or vice versa? Could I up my TDEE calories to 3000 from 1700?
The only way you would get a TDEE of 3000 would be through increase NEAT/TEA. Personally, unless you wanted to get tested, I wouldn't stress metabolism so much as it's only a portion of the energy balance equation. TDEE is what really matters.
Edit to add: 3k is average for the males in the GW section, females are around 23000 -
He does like high adrenaline sports. Okay. He probably does need more. But what comes first, good metabolism and desire for sports or vice versa? Could I up my TDEE calories to 3000 from 1700?
If you became a marathon runner, sure, it's not out of the question. Your son is into sports; if he plays frequently, that will be a decent burn added onto his TDEE. I'd always look at activity level + actual energy intake before blaming metabolism as the reason why someone has a hard time gaining (or losing) weight.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »grinning_chick wrote: »You must have never tried/will never try to cook any of the recipes Modernist Cuisine puts out. Or lurked the uber-serious baking forums to scrape recipes/troubleshoot baking problems. Everything is in grams and/or Baker's percentages.
I understood @stevencloser to be joking. Perhaps because he is, or perhaps because of my time in restaurants in which the bakers used food scales.
I do love baking and yes I was joking because the "people who weigh their foods have OCD" thing was just so mindboggling.1 -
stevencloser wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »grinning_chick wrote: »You must have never tried/will never try to cook any of the recipes Modernist Cuisine puts out. Or lurked the uber-serious baking forums to scrape recipes/troubleshoot baking problems. Everything is in grams and/or Baker's percentages.
. I understood @stevencloser to be joking. Perhaps because he is, or perhaps because of my time in restaurants in which the bakers used food scales.
I do love baking and yes I was joking because the "people who weigh their foods have OCD" thing was just so mindboggling.
Agreed. No way is measuring with a kitchen scale OCD. It is a great tool. I used the volume and portion method and eventually stalled. I'm relieved that I can get my margin of error smaller with weighing. Maybe I will finally get rid of the last stubborn pounds! I hate "counting" calories but can see the efficacy with others' success.1 -
gonetothedogs19 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »xjessicaxrx wrote: »Let me be clear, the OCD comment was aimed at those who stress over weighing a pre-packaged, single serving yogurt just incase the calories are off by +/- 5-10kcal. Those who weigh restaurant food and pick apart meals "just incase".
Counting calories is one thing but that is just not normal behaviour.
The point about pre-packaged stuff being potentially off was a response to a poster who was claiming that it was better to change one's diet to be all packaged single-serving stuff vs. to have to weigh. IMO, saying you must use pre-packaged to count properly is way more neurotic than weighing one's foods*, and once you weigh it's not much of a hassle to weigh everything you put in a bowl or on a plate or use in cooking.
*If I were going to make such judgments, but I personally think it's wrong to do so.
I was that poster.
Bottom line - the vast majority of people fail at diets, whether they count calories or don't count calories.
My suggestion was that in order to make calorie counting easier for newbies, it would be much better to eat pre-packaged foods (including things like single-serve yogurts, cans of tuna fish and soup) or foods where you don't have to weigh or measure anything (like an egg).
It's hard enough to start any diet (which is why most people fail). Making newbies weigh and measure and obsess over calories on Day 1 makes the situation even worse, and will result in more failure.
The people here on this site who say its easy to weigh, measure and count remind me of vegans who say it's easy to be a vegan. Both are not easy.
But it's not hard to weigh food.3 -
singingflutelady wrote: »You still have no idea what ocd is
Someone who has to wash their hands over and over again, someone who has to the locks on the doors multiple times etc1 -
gonetothedogs19 wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »I was trying to make two points:
1) If calorie counting, weighing and measuring is too difficult or you just don't want to do it, start off with packaged foods, eggs, etc. that require no counting, weighing and measuring.
2) I never said counting, weighing and measuring is OCD. I said a LIFETIME of counting, weighing and measuring is OCD. You've been counting, weighing and measuring for a year and you reached your goal. That one year has trained you how to eat. And as I said above, if you gain two pounds, start counting, measuring and weighing again to lose the two pounds.
Sheesh!
Yes, you have said all that and you are still wrong.
Like I said, some of us have more goals than a healthy weight that require as much accuracy as we can accomplish. That's not OCD. That's being dedicated to something you ENJOY and working towards goals.
So when you have a salad with lettuce, carrots, tomatoes, onions, cucumbers, olives, etc., you actually ENJOY weighing and measuring each of them.
Really?
Takes no more time than putting each item into a bowl, I don't see the issue.3 -
@ndj1979
I was looking for studies that show how much people err in estimating caloric intake and the numbers are all over the place. Could you direct me to the source of your information that people's estimates are off by 30-50%? Thanks in advance.
I am curious to know just how accurate MFP loggers are...I use a food scale, and after reading on these forums how inaccurate the weight of packaged foods can be, I weigh & measure those, too. It's illuminating to weigh pre-packaged foods.2 -
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-36988065KetoneKaren wrote: »@ndj1979
I was looking for studies that show how much people err in estimating caloric intake and the numbers are all over the place. Could you direct me to the source of your information that people's estimates are off by 30-50%? Thanks in advance.
I am curious to know just how accurate MFP loggers are...I use a food scale, and after reading on these forums how inaccurate the weight of packaged foods can be, I weigh & measure those, too. It's illuminating to weigh pre-packaged foods.
The Behavioural Insights Team points to scientific and economic data showing people eat 3,000 calories, compared to the 2,000 cited in official surveys.
http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/16-07-12-Counting-Calories-Final.pdf0 -
Thanks!0
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gonetothedogs19 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »xjessicaxrx wrote: »Let me be clear, the OCD comment was aimed at those who stress over weighing a pre-packaged, single serving yogurt just incase the calories are off by +/- 5-10kcal. Those who weigh restaurant food and pick apart meals "just incase".
Counting calories is one thing but that is just not normal behaviour.
The point about pre-packaged stuff being potentially off was a response to a poster who was claiming that it was better to change one's diet to be all packaged single-serving stuff vs. to have to weigh. IMO, saying you must use pre-packaged to count properly is way more neurotic than weighing one's foods*, and once you weigh it's not much of a hassle to weigh everything you put in a bowl or on a plate or use in cooking.
*If I were going to make such judgments, but I personally think it's wrong to do so.
I was that poster.
Bottom line - the vast majority of people fail at diets, whether they count calories or don't count calories.
My suggestion was that in order to make calorie counting easier for newbies, it would be much better to eat pre-packaged foods (including things like single-serve yogurts, cans of tuna fish and soup) or foods where you don't have to weigh or measure anything (like an egg).
It's hard enough to start any diet (which is why most people fail). Making newbies weigh and measure and obsess over calories on Day 1 makes the situation even worse, and will result in more failure.
The people here on this site who say its easy to weigh, measure and count remind me of vegans who say it's easy to be a vegan. Both are not easy.
Weighing can be tedious, but the act of weighing is easy.
My ethical vegan friends find it easy - they've adopted various mindsets such as "meat is murder" and this made it easy for them to not want animal products.
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I haven't read the book, but counting calories is working for me.It also makes me aware of how much nutrients are in a food. I've lost 9lbs!! I am NOT hungry. I eat before i get hungry & drink more water & my meals include veggie/fruit shakes which fills me up. once a week i'll splurge a little which hasn't effected my wieght loss3
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kshama2001 wrote: »
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-36988065KetoneKaren wrote: »@ndj1979
I was looking for studies that show how much people err in estimating caloric intake and the numbers are all over the place. Could you direct me to the source of your information that people's estimates are off by 30-50%? Thanks in advance.
I am curious to know just how accurate MFP loggers are...I use a food scale, and after reading on these forums how inaccurate the weight of packaged foods can be, I weigh & measure those, too. It's illuminating to weigh pre-packaged foods.
The Behavioural Insights Team points to scientific and economic data showing people eat 3,000 calories, compared to the 2,000 cited in official surveys.
http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/16-07-12-Counting-Calories-Final.pdf
3,000 calories? Do you know how much that it is? Sorry, but unless your have a big meal with drinks at a restaurant, drinking a six-pack of Coke, or eating entire giant bags of chips, you are not eating 3,000 calories. And if we were, just about every woman and most men would be obese.1 -
Eating like a horse= 3,000 calories. I've done it, many, many times.3
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queenliz99 wrote: »Eating like a horse= 3,000 calories. I've done it, many, many times.
It's not a big deal. Anybody can do it. But everyday? I don't think so. Not even close.1 -
gonetothedogs19 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-36988065KetoneKaren wrote: »@ndj1979
I was looking for studies that show how much people err in estimating caloric intake and the numbers are all over the place. Could you direct me to the source of your information that people's estimates are off by 30-50%? Thanks in advance.
I am curious to know just how accurate MFP loggers are...I use a food scale, and after reading on these forums how inaccurate the weight of packaged foods can be, I weigh & measure those, too. It's illuminating to weigh pre-packaged foods.
The Behavioural Insights Team points to scientific and economic data showing people eat 3,000 calories, compared to the 2,000 cited in official surveys.
http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/16-07-12-Counting-Calories-Final.pdf
3,000 calories? Do you know how much that it is? Sorry, but unless your have a big meal with drinks at a restaurant, drinking a six-pack of Coke, or eating entire giant bags of chips, you are not eating 3,000 calories. And if we were, just about every woman and most men would be obese.
Sorry, but not as hard as you may think for people that eat out.
Cheesecake Factory The Bistro Shrimp Pasta - 3,120 calories
Cheesecake Factory Bruleed French Toast - 2780 calories
Cheesecake Factory - Farfalle With Chicken and Roasted Garlic - 2410 calories
Sonic: Large Peanut Butter Caramel Pie Malt (just one milkshake) - 2170 calories
Maggiano's Little Italy Veal Porterhouse - 2,710 calories
Johnny Rockets Bacon & Cheddar Double Cheeseburger (just the burger) - 1,770 calories.
I could go on.
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gonetothedogs19 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-36988065KetoneKaren wrote: »@ndj1979
I was looking for studies that show how much people err in estimating caloric intake and the numbers are all over the place. Could you direct me to the source of your information that people's estimates are off by 30-50%? Thanks in advance.
I am curious to know just how accurate MFP loggers are...I use a food scale, and after reading on these forums how inaccurate the weight of packaged foods can be, I weigh & measure those, too. It's illuminating to weigh pre-packaged foods.
The Behavioural Insights Team points to scientific and economic data showing people eat 3,000 calories, compared to the 2,000 cited in official surveys.
http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/16-07-12-Counting-Calories-Final.pdf
3,000 calories? Do you know how much that it is? Sorry, but unless your have a big meal with drinks at a restaurant, drinking a six-pack of Coke, or eating entire giant bags of chips, you are not eating 3,000 calories. And if we were, just about every woman and most men would be obese.
Maybe for you. But that is my maintenance number and I can easily hit that and so much more. In fact, I can easily do that with home cooked meals. Today was 2,645 calories. Feel free to look at my diary.4 -
Wynterbourne wrote: »gonetothedogs19 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-36988065KetoneKaren wrote: »@ndj1979
I was looking for studies that show how much people err in estimating caloric intake and the numbers are all over the place. Could you direct me to the source of your information that people's estimates are off by 30-50%? Thanks in advance.
I am curious to know just how accurate MFP loggers are...I use a food scale, and after reading on these forums how inaccurate the weight of packaged foods can be, I weigh & measure those, too. It's illuminating to weigh pre-packaged foods.
The Behavioural Insights Team points to scientific and economic data showing people eat 3,000 calories, compared to the 2,000 cited in official surveys.
http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/16-07-12-Counting-Calories-Final.pdf
3,000 calories? Do you know how much that it is? Sorry, but unless your have a big meal with drinks at a restaurant, drinking a six-pack of Coke, or eating entire giant bags of chips, you are not eating 3,000 calories. And if we were, just about every woman and most men would be obese.
Sorry, but not as hard as you may think for people that eat out.
Cheesecake Factory The Bistro Shrimp Pasta - 3,120 calories
Cheesecake Factory Bruleed French Toast - 2780 calories
Cheesecake Factory - Farfalle With Chicken and Roasted Garlic - 2410 calories
Sonic: Large Peanut Butter Caramel Pie Malt (just one milkshake) - 2170 calories
Maggiano's Little Italy Veal Porterhouse - 2,710 calories
Johnny Rockets Bacon & Cheddar Double Cheeseburger (just the burger) - 1,770 calories.
I could go on.
Cheesecake Factory is at most a once a month occasion. And anyone with half a brain would eat half and take the other half home, because the portions are so large. They also have lots of better options.
Imagine eating the entire Bistro Shrimp Pasta with a couple of beers, and having a piece of strawberry cheesecake for desert. Gut buster!0 -
gonetothedogs19 wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »Eating like a horse= 3,000 calories. I've done it, many, many times.
It's not a big deal. Anybody can do it. But everyday? I don't think so. Not even close.
If you go out to eat even once in a day, 3000 calories is super easy to eat over the course of the day, or even in one sitting depending one where/what you eat.
Even when I cook for my family, most recipes are for families of 4 or larger and I can easily put away 2-3 servings without a second thought. So say I'm eating two servings of a meal that is 400 calories per serving. That's 800 calories, plus if I drink a glass of wine, that's 150, a side salad that's another 120+. An average dinner when I'm not mindful of my intake is close to 1000 calories. That's just one meal. 3000 calories is incredible easy.6
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