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Thoughts on the “glamourizing/normalizing” obesity vs body positivity conversations
Replies
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Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
But you said:Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
If obese people are aware that obesity is not healthy, how can you conclude that society isn't telling them "This is ruining your health"?
There are obese people who actually avoid going to the doctor, because they are tired of hearing about how their weight is killing them but they don't know how to deal with the underlying issues that have caused them to sabotage themselves. There are weight loss clinics all over the country promising to help them lose weight fast. There are diets and workout programs all over the internet promising fast weight loss. People are being prescribed phentermine or diabetes medications to help them lose weight faster, they're being put on Medifast and Optavia plans, bariatric surgery centers are popping up all over the place. There are therapists who specialize in eating disorders and morbid obesity related to histories of abuse or self harm.
You keep repeating your premise and saying "this is true, just believe me". But what you're saying doesn't jive at all with what I see around me. I see a giant industry built around the need to help people lose weight, I see the media pandering momentarily to overweight people and then ignoring them again, and I don't know or see any obese people who don't realize they are hurting themselves by staying that way, in fact I believe many stay that way because at least subconsciously they believe they don't deserve better.
And FYI, obesity /= food addict in at least some if not most cases. There are often deep psychological issues that often have nothing to do with food. You can't just detox from food and then stop eating it.
Replacing our societal infrastructure to accommodate larger people is not society telling them "This is ruining your health", it is telling them that they are okay and that the chairs are the ones that need to change.
The chairs DO need to change or at least some need to be provided. Some obese people will be in quite a bit of discomfort standing for long periods of time. That is unless you want all the fatties to stay at home so you don't have to see them.
I assure you that while the obese person will appreciate a place to sit they will not like sitting in a special chair.
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Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
But you said:Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
If obese people are aware that obesity is not healthy, how can you conclude that society isn't telling them "This is ruining your health"?
There are obese people who actually avoid going to the doctor, because they are tired of hearing about how their weight is killing them but they don't know how to deal with the underlying issues that have caused them to sabotage themselves. There are weight loss clinics all over the country promising to help them lose weight fast. There are diets and workout programs all over the internet promising fast weight loss. People are being prescribed phentermine or diabetes medications to help them lose weight faster, they're being put on Medifast and Optavia plans, bariatric surgery centers are popping up all over the place. There are therapists who specialize in eating disorders and morbid obesity related to histories of abuse or self harm.
You keep repeating your premise and saying "this is true, just believe me". But what you're saying doesn't jive at all with what I see around me. I see a giant industry built around the need to help people lose weight, I see the media pandering momentarily to overweight people and then ignoring them again, and I don't know or see any obese people who don't realize they are hurting themselves by staying that way, in fact I believe many stay that way because at least subconsciously they believe they don't deserve better.
And FYI, obesity /= food addict in at least some if not most cases. There are often deep psychological issues that often have nothing to do with food. You can't just detox from food and then stop eating it.
Replacing our societal infrastructure to accommodate larger people is not society telling them "This is ruining your health", it is telling them that they are okay and that the chairs are the ones that need to change.
The chairs DO need to change or at least some need to be provided. Some obese people will be in quite a bit of discomfort standing for long periods of time. That is unless you want all the fatties to stay at home so you don't have to see them.
I assure you that while the obese person will appreciate a place to sit they will not like sitting in a special chair.
I can actually attest to this. For some years I have silently examined (from a distance) the seating possibilities whenever I go places, so that I can determine which would be the least embarrassing for me to sit in. I carry a lot of my excess weight in my thighs and butt, so when I sit down it all spreads. Trust me, I do *not* enjoy having to sit in the bigger chairs just so that I can sit somewhat pain-free.
It embarrasses me that I have to do so. It makes me feel ashamed that I am at the level that I need to do that. As far as the other chairs are concerned, it does *not* make me feel motivated to do something about it when I have to sit in the so-called "normal-sized" chairs. All it does is make me feel even worse about myself and makes me not want to go anywhere because I never know if I will be able to comfortably sit down if I need to!
Having those bigger chairs available for me to use does not make me feel happy or accept the weight/size that I'm at, either. It is my own honest opinion that only people who have never struggled with a large amount of weight would even imply such a thing.31 -
jafinnearty wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
But you said:Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
If obese people are aware that obesity is not healthy, how can you conclude that society isn't telling them "This is ruining your health"?
There are obese people who actually avoid going to the doctor, because they are tired of hearing about how their weight is killing them but they don't know how to deal with the underlying issues that have caused them to sabotage themselves. There are weight loss clinics all over the country promising to help them lose weight fast. There are diets and workout programs all over the internet promising fast weight loss. People are being prescribed phentermine or diabetes medications to help them lose weight faster, they're being put on Medifast and Optavia plans, bariatric surgery centers are popping up all over the place. There are therapists who specialize in eating disorders and morbid obesity related to histories of abuse or self harm.
You keep repeating your premise and saying "this is true, just believe me". But what you're saying doesn't jive at all with what I see around me. I see a giant industry built around the need to help people lose weight, I see the media pandering momentarily to overweight people and then ignoring them again, and I don't know or see any obese people who don't realize they are hurting themselves by staying that way, in fact I believe many stay that way because at least subconsciously they believe they don't deserve better.
And FYI, obesity /= food addict in at least some if not most cases. There are often deep psychological issues that often have nothing to do with food. You can't just detox from food and then stop eating it.
Replacing our societal infrastructure to accommodate larger people is not society telling them "This is ruining your health", it is telling them that they are okay and that the chairs are the ones that need to change.
The chairs DO need to change or at least some need to be provided. Some obese people will be in quite a bit of discomfort standing for long periods of time. That is unless you want all the fatties to stay at home so you don't have to see them.
I assure you that while the obese person will appreciate a place to sit they will not like sitting in a special chair.
I can actually attest to this. For some years I have silently examined (from a distance) the seating possibilities whenever I go places, so that I can determine which would be the least embarrassing for me to sit in. I carry a lot of my excess weight in my thighs and butt, so when I sit down it all spreads. Trust me, I do *not* enjoy having to sit in the bigger chairs just so that I can sit somewhat pain-free.
It embarrasses me that I have to do so. It makes me feel ashamed that I am at the level that I need to do that. As far as the other chairs are concerned, it does *not* make me feel motivated to do something about it when I have to sit in the so-called "normal-sized" chairs. All it does is make me feel even worse about myself and makes me not want to go anywhere because I never know if I will be able to comfortably sit down if I need to!
Having those bigger chairs available for me to use does not make me feel happy or accept the weight/size that I'm at, either. It is my own honest opinion that only people who have never struggled with a large amount of weight would even imply such a thing.
Or people who enjoy fat shaming but are trying to do it at MFP in a not-so-subtle way.22 -
I don't think it's a moral and upstanding thing to make obese people feel bad about themselves. The idea that making people uncomfortable will improve their lives in the long run ... like fat shaming makes you a superhero ... it's pretty sanctimonious.
Other people's choices are their business and responsibility.27 -
If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
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If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
You don't have to personally find any particular person, regardless of their weight, physically attractive. You just have to believe they have worth as a person.36 -
If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
You don't have to personally find any particular person, regardless of their weight, physically attractive. You just have to believe they have worth as a person.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I would augment that by saying that one has to believe that people have a right to exist in the world regardless of their size. That means being able to do things like go to cafes and restaurants, fly places, etc.12 -
If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
You don't have to personally find any particular person, regardless of their weight, physically attractive. You just have to believe they have worth as a person.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I would augment that by saying that one has to believe that people have a right to exist in the world regardless of their size. That means being able to do things like go to cafes and restaurants, fly places, etc.
Agreed. To me they go and in hand. If you don't believe someone has a right to sit in a comfortable seat, then you can't claim to value their worth as a person.13 -
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NorthCascades wrote: »The diet industry is pretty big, multibillion-dollar. I've never seen ads for products that promise to make you fat, there are thousands of products and services promising to make people skinny. If society really was glamorizing obesity, everybody would want to become obese like the glamourous people.
NO, they lie --Snackwells and "low frat dressing" full of sugar -- all most all breakfast cereals, not just sugar cereals have added sugar
I don't understand how this is relevant to my post?8 -
I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
How are you defining fit? I'm also assuming that you think that a number of Olympic weight lifters aren't fit. Also this paralympic rower in the first picture who won silver in Rio, Lili Wang also wouldn't be fit according to you. I know quite a number of people personally who also fit into this category that you deem as delusional.
I'm not seeing your logic here.4 -
I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
Depending on genetics, fat distribution plus amount, and age fat doesn't even equal unhealthy. Nor does lean equal healthy.
Being obese is not an immediate death sentence. It increases risk it does not guarantee anything. It needs to be addressed as soon as possible because the longer a person is obese the harder it is on their bodies. It is not, however, necessarily so urgently needed to the point their weight is riskier than a VLCD. It may be but that is not universal.
There are many drawbacks to being heavy and health is a factor but it does not or should not provide license to treat a person rudely or (further for some people) diminish their dignity in public.8 -
I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
Brian Shaw's BMI was 45.4 when his weight was at 412lbs. He isn't representative of that weight range among the general populace, but he and his competitors also clearly show that "fit" is something that can certainly be achieved in the absence of underlying medical issues.
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Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
I'm a recovering alcoholic, over 32 years without a single drop. In light of your statement, I wonder how long I could go without food before being hospitalized?
The only commonality between addiction to substances and addiction to overeating is that there are underlying issues that need to be addressed.25 -
If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
You don't have to personally find any particular person, regardless of their weight, physically attractive. You just have to believe they have worth as a person.
I certainly don't question anyone's worth as a person, and my post didn't suggest that I did. You suggested that.
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I am not here to offend or discuss beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I can't make anyone think I am beautiful if they find me ugly just as much as you can't make me think someone is beautiful if I find them ugly.
That really is not the point, in my opinion.
I remember growing up in the 90s and that was the era of the toothpick models. Nearly anorexic girls.
Critics said that magazines and fashion boutiques should not glorify unhealthy behaviors.
Then Claudia Schiffer and Naomi Campbell came along and suddenly, healthy was beautiful again. The Victoria Secret boom happened and Giselle Bundchen became the goddess of the fashion world,
Critics said that those Girls were perpetuating the idea of impossible standards.
Claudia Schiffer has a BMI of 17.85 - underweight is below 18.5 and anorexia requires 17.5 or less for a diagnosis.
Perhaps your optics are a little off?8 -
Underweight people are beautiful too. I get horrible body comments everytime I go out (I'm bmi 15.9 because of gastroparesis not snorexia). People shouldn't comment on other's bodies unless asked.31
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Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
But you said:Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
If obese people are aware that obesity is not healthy, how can you conclude that society isn't telling them "This is ruining your health"?
There are obese people who actually avoid going to the doctor, because they are tired of hearing about how their weight is killing them but they don't know how to deal with the underlying issues that have caused them to sabotage themselves. There are weight loss clinics all over the country promising to help them lose weight fast. There are diets and workout programs all over the internet promising fast weight loss. People are being prescribed phentermine or diabetes medications to help them lose weight faster, they're being put on Medifast and Optavia plans, bariatric surgery centers are popping up all over the place. There are therapists who specialize in eating disorders and morbid obesity related to histories of abuse or self harm.
You keep repeating your premise and saying "this is true, just believe me". But what you're saying doesn't jive at all with what I see around me. I see a giant industry built around the need to help people lose weight, I see the media pandering momentarily to overweight people and then ignoring them again, and I don't know or see any obese people who don't realize they are hurting themselves by staying that way, in fact I believe many stay that way because at least subconsciously they believe they don't deserve better.
And FYI, obesity /= food addict in at least some if not most cases. There are often deep psychological issues that often have nothing to do with food. You can't just detox from food and then stop eating it.
Replacing our societal infrastructure to accommodate larger people is not society telling them "This is ruining your health", it is telling them that they are okay and that the chairs are the ones that need to change.
Unfortunately for you, your stated goal and your method are at odds.
There is evidence that fat-shaming people just increases their weight.
There is a lot of research that shows shame doesn't work as a successful operant conditioning stimulus period - people are aware that shame is not a natural consequence but one that comes externally from others. When you shame a behavior, you do not teach a person to stop the behavior, you teach them to hide the behavior from you. Now that the person loses access to one positive outlet that means the relative enjoyment of the behavior that needs hiding becomes greater.13 -
I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
Unless you're going to argue for an unusual/non-standard definition of "fitness" that inherently includes low body fat, you're factually incorrect, plus you're treating each of those terms as an absolute, rather than as a broad range. I agree that the ranges of "fat" and "fit" statistically have a small overlap amongst the population, but there is an overlap.
When I was obese, with the body fat to justfy it, and not solely BMI > 30 (though I was that), I:
* was competing as a masters athlete (in my sport, rowing, "masters" means "post collegiate age", not a particular skill level: don't want to oversell
- but competing nonetheless), and finishing in the pack, with the occasional place medal
* had an AM resting heart rate around 50bpm (usually +/- 2)
* logged a 2km rowing machine pace (in a real life race, so objectively documented) at about the 75th percentile level (better than 75% of those my age) on the Concept 2 web site, the place where serious rowers record their results (I'd note that I started rowing in my 40s, but the reference group includes women who've done it since youth)
* Had the endurance to go to rowing camps, row around 3-5 hours a day (plus other ancillary stuff (yoga, extensive walking)), then get up in the AM and do it again, for a week at a time.
* was noticeably stronger than most other women my age (40s-50s at the time), though I don't have an objective benchmark for that
* was flexible enough not only to touch my toes, but put my palms flat on the floor.
I think most people would consider that reasonably fit. But my bodyweight was obese. I stayed at that stage for a decade.
I wasn't ideally healthy though, so I decided to lose weight. Now, at a healthy weight (BMI 22-point-something this morning, age 63), my health is greatly improved, but my athletic performance is about the same.
Bottom line: Fit and fat can co-exist. At all levels of fat? Probably not. At all levels of fit? Probably not. But fit and fat are different things.
Funnily, because I'd been so active, I assumed I must have a "slow metabolism" . . . but once I'd been carefully calorie counting for a while, I realized I actually burn more calories than my demographics predict. It's just that it's super easy to eat those extra few hundred calorie, and many more beyond.
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I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
Brian Shaw's BMI was 45.4 when his weight was at 412lbs. He isn't representative of that weight range among the general populace, but he and his competitors also clearly show that "fit" is something that can certainly be achieved in the absence of underlying medical issues.
Strong does not equal fit. I would disagree with the idea that Brian Shaw was fit in this photo. Strong, sure, but fitness is not represented by the amount of muscle a person has.18 -
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NorthCascades wrote: »I don't think it's a moral and upstanding thing to make obese people feel bad about themselves. The idea that making people uncomfortable will improve their lives in the long run ... like fat shaming makes you a superhero ... it's pretty sanctimonious.
Other people's choices are their business and responsibility.
except when we all have to pay for them --- the oversize chairs and wheel chairs and hospital beds are not free
So whats is your point? Just because there is extra cost associated with obesity, that doesn't give anyone else the right to fat shame people. The whole point that @NorthCascades was making was that the idea of fat shaming to try to "help" someone is an absurd idea. Are you seriously challenging that thought and trying to justify it? I sure hope not, but its hard to see the point of your post if that isn't the case.9 -
Airplane seats and subway seats are fine as they are. If a person is too large to fit in the defined space of the seat they paid for, they should absolutely have to buy a second seat. If they're so proud of their obesity, that shouldn't be a problem. But the bottom line is that they made themselves obese, and the people flying with them shouldn't be punished for that. When I pay for a seat on a plane, I can fit into it, and you damn well better bet I want all the space I PAID FOR. It's time for people to take responsibility for themselves and not expect everyone else to do it for them.19
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missomgitsica wrote: »Airplane seats and subway seats are fine as they are. If a person is too large to fit in the defined space of the seat they paid for, they should absolutely have to buy a second seat. If they're so proud of their obesity, that shouldn't be a problem. But the bottom line is that they made themselves obese, and the people flying with them shouldn't be punished for that. When I pay for a seat on a plane, I can fit into it, and you damn well better bet I want all the space I PAID FOR. It's time for people to take responsibility for themselves and not expect everyone else to do it for them.
This is by far the most judgemental post I have seen today. I have never known a single person who was proud to be obese. I agree that people need to take responsibility for themselves, just as we all should be mature enough not to judge other people we don't know.32 -
I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
Brian Shaw's BMI was 45.4 when his weight was at 412lbs. He isn't representative of that weight range among the general populace, but he and his competitors also clearly show that "fit" is something that can certainly be achieved in the absence of underlying medical issues.
Strong does not equal fit. I would disagree with the idea that Brian Shaw was fit in this photo. Strong, sure, but fitness is not represented by the amount of muscle a person has.
I'm not certain of the timeline between this photo and his challenge vs the ex Navy SEAL, but the ex SEAL was as fit as you would expect and Shaw won the challenge.
To be perfectly honest I'm not certain exactly what would constitute "fit" as it seems to be a moving target among various disciplines - remember the NFL Linemen conversations? I don't have a problem considering him fit, but I do acknowledge as stated that he's more of a one off.0 -
jenniferhinchy wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »jenniferhinchy wrote: »There's a quote that I can't quite remember that puts it better, but it tends to be that people form there ideals and opinions after there intrinsic gut instinct. A lot of people in society have been taught that being towards underweight is the ideal, and being seen as overweight is a personal flaw. This leads to a knee jerk reaction in those people to use overweight as a dirty word, a classic insult of childhood bullies (or adult ones in some cases).
However, as there's been a push for more understanding of what it's like being an overweight person, people have come to realise that there treatment and demonisation of overweight people makes them what we call in the buissness 'a bit of a jerk'. And people don't really want to be seen as mean, so the back pedal looks something like:
'I'm worried about your health!' - 'It glorifys bad life choices' etc etc, you've probably heard a lot of them.
In actual fact, they don't want to face the reality that they themselves have been a part of pushing - that their treatment of overweight people is unfair, cruel and undeserved.
In terms of responding to a lot of the critisism that 'body positivity' I would say this. It's the ability to be able to say 'hey, I shouldn't hate myself for the way my body looks - My worth is not intrinsically tied to my outward appearence'.
And that body positivity disconnects health and physical appearance. Because people can be healthy as they can be, be outside of the average weight due to medical conditions, and should still love themselves. People can look average weight and be unhealthy, and they should love themselves. People can want to change there appearance and still love themselves just as they are. Love yourself!
Because at the end of the day the people that don't want you to love yourself because of the way that you look, don't have your interest at heart, and they certainly don't care about your health. They just don't want to be seen as mean when they make fun of people.
I don't disagree that society has shunned overweight and embraced underweight but I'm not sure why the solution would be to embrace overweight as well, I think it makes more sense to just stop embracing underweight. As far as your worth being tied to your personal appearance....it sort of is to be honest. I mean for things you literally have no control over such as your sex or your race then no, that shouldn't matter, but for things you do have control over such as your weight and your hygeine and grooming then yeah...I don't really understand why society shouldn't make judgements on things like that....it is an outward sign of how much control you have.
Society should be built in such a way that it encourages the type of behaviors that maximally benefits that society and discourages the type of behaviors that harm that society. Appearance is a part of that and weight most definitely is given its connection to health issues (which you seem to dismiss as being a deflection from the "real" reason but honestly its a legitimate reason).
If we could snap our fingers and make all of society female or all of society white or all of society a brunette that wouldn't actually be better (actually it'd be worse in most cases). If we could snap our fingers and make all of society a healthy weight though....wouldn't we do that? Isn't that a goal we should be striving for? If so then isn't it's societies role to push in that direction? I think stopping the glamorization of underweight models is a part of that...but accepting that being overweight is okay somehow is definitely not part of that.
You make some valid points that I agree with. I agree that the societal judgements we experience have impact on our behaviour to change, and certainly that weight is linked to health. Obesity is the 2nd largest contributor to cancer, causes type 2 diabetes and a whole array of health problems, and being underweight can lead to hair loss, anemia and fainting. I also agree that we shouldn't push for/glorify being underweight or overweight, pushing for showing people with healthy weights in media is important.
However, I do disagree in some areas. Some people have health conditions that make it difficult to maintain an average body weight. Sometimes a variable metabolic rate, endocrine issues and the like. Some people haven't been educated in proper diet, some people don't have access to healthy food options due to socioeconomic issues. These things aren't dictated by self-control. Even if these things didn't come into play in how someone became overweight, it takes time, dedication, and a lot of self control to lose weight. Someone who you judge as a fat person with no self control may actually be someone who is on month 9 of an intensive lifestyle change that's incredibly hard for them to maintain. I'd say that person has a lot more self-control than the person with a naturally fast metabolism. You're weight isn't an accurate scale to measure self-control.
Also hygiene and grooming aren't as comparible to your weight. A shower and skin care routine can solve that in 20 minutes, talk to anyone that's been trying to lose weight for years and they can testify it takes a little while.
Societal shaming is an effective technique to make people stop doing things. It also can also cause ingrained psychological damage. Sure it works in some cases, but it isn't ethical.
I can give a few things that work in real life scenarios; better diet education, more public funding in areas for play and fitness, cutting sugar content in meals, sugar taxes, increased healthcare funding. All of these work to curb being overweight without building into someones psyche that they should hate themselves. These are the techniques we should be using, this is what the societal push should be, not to hide away people we don't like the sight of.
Body positivity should go alongside these methods. I think it's the difference between glamorisation and representation. Its the difference between 'You should look like this' vs 'People look like this'. Body positivity pushes for representation of all body types, because all bodies in the world are beautiful. But not all of them are healthy. Doesn't mean you should shame them for it, a) because it's kinda ineffective in comparison to other methods and b) it's kinda mean. I also don't think making underweight people who pushed to make themselves to be underweight because society told them to should be made to feel bad about themselves either. Or people who have fast metabolisms! Body positivity is the push back from the years of self hatred that people have been forced to feel bad about their appearance, people shouldn't feel shame constantly, that is also unhealthy. All of this aside - your worth, pride and self esteem shouldn't be tied to your health or weight alone.
I think everyone would agree that they would snap there finger if it meant everyone was a healthy weight, there is no argument there. But that doesn't exsist, and your finger snap in reality, is a method that doesn't work all that well, we have better ones that don't make people feel awful about themselves.
I hope this didn't come off as combatitive, although I get the feeling it might have done. I'm not the most eloquent of people and dyslexia doesn't help with the spelling of it all! I am interested in what you think, it's a good topic to debate over.
I didn't read your tone as combative at all and you make some excellent points. I think you do make an important point that there is a distinction between hygiene/grooming and obesity in terms of although both might be regulated by behavior, one can be adjusted in 30 minutes while the other can take years. Societal pressure to not smell bad is something you can make the decision to address and have no more societal pressure the next day, but obesity even if you are addressing it you might still feel set-upon for months or years during that process and I get how that could end up being discouraging or detrimental.
I also think that societal pressure versus acceptance can take many different forms and that some forms are definitely not appropriate. I don't think just calling someone a "fatty" to their face is at all helpful or constructive. That said I think being supportive and accommodating of their obesity (ie making it easier to be obese) is not constructive either. If you are obese I think you should feel a bit uncomfortable with that and I think society has a role there. Its not that I somehow support being abusive towards overweight people, its more that I am against societal acceptance that obesity is a-okay and you should feel "positive" about being obese.
I do get that we'd all prefer if strangers weren't judgemental of us based on first impressions or appearances, I'd agree with that. But as you pointed out with the finger-snap that isn't going to happen. People are judgemental and there judgements are societal. Things that society considers "bad" are going to result in judgemental attitudes towards those exhibiting those traits. That is unfortunate in that feelings can get hurt and people can be driven towards depression or self-harm but I think what would be more unfortunate would be addressing this by pretending that obesity isn't bad because I think societal acceptance of obesity would be the greater harm.
You mentioned sugar tax in one of your examples and that is something I'm actually a bit ambivalent about. That is simply because it can end up being a tax on the poor and that makes me uncomfortable. Despite what another poster said I really don't lack empathy.
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Marginalizing the obese doesn't help them become less obese.
Out of curiosity why would you think that it wouldn't decrease obesity rates to marginalize obesity? It certainly decreased the number of people who smoke when society marginalize smoking and made it inconvenient to be a smoker and if you are a smoker quitting isn't an easy fix and often takes years.
Just to be clear by "societal pressure" and "margalization" I don't mean being verbally abusive to overweight people, same as I don't mean that you should be verbally abusive to someone who smokes. That said I think having a bit of a mantra in society of how smoking or obesity are things to avoid and shun is a positive force overall, even if some people feel disadvantaged because of it.
There is also a big difference about having empathy for an individual and having just global societal acceptance of what could be argued is a negative trait. I think society should put pressure against obesity...doesn't mean I can't have empathy or understanding for an individual who is overweight. Not wanting society to accept obesity is not the same thing as promoting fat shaming.
18 -
Is the empathy heirarchy based upon the empathy you feel for those judged without empathy?
We need a Roberts Rules of Order on da feelz.3 -
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