Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Body Positive Movement - For or against?
Replies
-
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it.
I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem 
Same here - just another bad habit that needs kicking into touch. My life just seems to be a succession of things I have to stop doing... At least i can enjoy my privilege (for now!)
Just a mild suggestion: Don't stop. You seem like a smart, decent guy: You should hang around, and join in.
Learn to recognize that chemical rush you mentioned, and stop before you hit post. Read again, think more, post something less polemical, something that fosters communication or connection.
There could be a chemical rush from that, too, ya never know.
2 -
I believe people can do what they want with their bodies and life choices. But if you're not happy with your body and life choices it's not the problem of people who have made different life choices....
imagine if I started attacking people on social media who were posting up pics of them enjoying a drink at a party - because I cant...
I don't believe anyone has suggested doing this or spoken approvingly of such behavior. To me, such things would be the antithesis of body positivity. So it seems like a strawman.
IME, accepting yourself despite the imperfections of your body and past eating/exercise choices and NOT feeling shame and self-hatred and out of control, but instead realizing "I can do this" and wanting to do it as a positive thing for yourself was basically tied up with body positivity and what allowed me to make positive changes (in my head I said they were good and worth it whether or not I lost weight) and, indeed, to lose weight.
The idea that most fat people are sitting around attacking people on social media for being thin is perhaps a fun thing for you to think about, but I don't think it's reality. Plus, people who attack others based on envy are more likely to be suffering from self-hatred than to have a real attitude of positivity.
This sums up the absurd notion of privilege. An embodiment of envy.
I couldn't disagree more. It sounds like you have a very poor understanding of what most, if not many, people mean when they're talking about privilege. Looking at sociology texts on the subject might be one good place to start for you that gets away from "laymen" discussing it (despite the fact that everyone who I know that talks about privilege in the "power and privilege" sort of context is using the academic meaning). Gender studies and ethic studies texts would be other good places to find overviews).
I understand what it means and what it's attempting to produce. What's piteous is that the theory and underlying concept, if realized to it's logical endpoint - results in individualism. So either proponents haven't realized this yet, or more insidiously, using this to gain power.
It is entirely regressive as is all post-modernist thought.
Seeing as conceptions of privilege exist in the writing of Du Bois as far back as 1903, I don't think privilege is a concept that could be called necessarily post-modern.
I also have absolutely no clue what is meant by regressive in the context of saying all post-modernist thought is regressive. It reeks of just throwing terms out there to score points with people that already accept your philosophy and just need a word as a rallying cry.
I'd also bet $100 you can't show your proposed logical endpoint of privilege exists down to it resulting in individualism, without an is-ought fallacy.6 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »I believe people can do what they want with their bodies and life choices. But if you're not happy with your body and life choices it's not the problem of people who have made different life choices....
imagine if I started attacking people on social media who were posting up pics of them enjoying a drink at a party - because I cant...
I don't believe anyone has suggested doing this or spoken approvingly of such behavior. To me, such things would be the antithesis of body positivity. So it seems like a strawman.
IME, accepting yourself despite the imperfections of your body and past eating/exercise choices and NOT feeling shame and self-hatred and out of control, but instead realizing "I can do this" and wanting to do it as a positive thing for yourself was basically tied up with body positivity and what allowed me to make positive changes (in my head I said they were good and worth it whether or not I lost weight) and, indeed, to lose weight.
The idea that most fat people are sitting around attacking people on social media for being thin is perhaps a fun thing for you to think about, but I don't think it's reality. Plus, people who attack others based on envy are more likely to be suffering from self-hatred than to have a real attitude of positivity.
This sums up the absurd notion of privilege. An embodiment of envy.
I couldn't disagree more. It sounds like you have a very poor understanding of what most, if not many, people mean when they're talking about privilege. Looking at sociology texts on the subject might be one good place to start for you that gets away from "laymen" discussing it (despite the fact that everyone who I know that talks about privilege in the "power and privilege" sort of context is using the academic meaning). Gender studies and ethic studies texts would be other good places to find overviews).
I understand what it means and what it's attempting to produce. What's piteous is that the theory and underlying concept, if realized to it's logical endpoint - results in individualism. So either proponents haven't realized this yet, or more insidiously, using this to gain power.
It is entirely regressive as is all post-modernist thought.
Seeing as conceptions of privilege exist in the writing of Du Bois as far back as 1903, I don't think privilege is a concept that could be called necessarily post-modern.
Agree, but it does seem to be very much overused in current popular discourse (although I am sure it depends on who you are interacting with). A book I quite liked on the topic is Phoebe Maltz Bovy's The Perils of Privilege. (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250091208) I think it's pretty thoughtful and even-handed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/03/23/the-last-thing-on-privilege-youll-ever-need-to-read/2 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »I believe people can do what they want with their bodies and life choices. But if you're not happy with your body and life choices it's not the problem of people who have made different life choices....
imagine if I started attacking people on social media who were posting up pics of them enjoying a drink at a party - because I cant...
I don't believe anyone has suggested doing this or spoken approvingly of such behavior. To me, such things would be the antithesis of body positivity. So it seems like a strawman.
IME, accepting yourself despite the imperfections of your body and past eating/exercise choices and NOT feeling shame and self-hatred and out of control, but instead realizing "I can do this" and wanting to do it as a positive thing for yourself was basically tied up with body positivity and what allowed me to make positive changes (in my head I said they were good and worth it whether or not I lost weight) and, indeed, to lose weight.
The idea that most fat people are sitting around attacking people on social media for being thin is perhaps a fun thing for you to think about, but I don't think it's reality. Plus, people who attack others based on envy are more likely to be suffering from self-hatred than to have a real attitude of positivity.
This sums up the absurd notion of privilege. An embodiment of envy.
I couldn't disagree more. It sounds like you have a very poor understanding of what most, if not many, people mean when they're talking about privilege. Looking at sociology texts on the subject might be one good place to start for you that gets away from "laymen" discussing it (despite the fact that everyone who I know that talks about privilege in the "power and privilege" sort of context is using the academic meaning). Gender studies and ethic studies texts would be other good places to find overviews).
I understand what it means and what it's attempting to produce. What's piteous is that the theory and underlying concept, if realized to it's logical endpoint - results in individualism. So either proponents haven't realized this yet, or more insidiously, using this to gain power.
It is entirely regressive as is all post-modernist thought.
Seeing as conceptions of privilege exist in the writing of Du Bois as far back as 1903, I don't think privilege is a concept that could be called necessarily post-modern.
Agree, but it does seem to be very much overused in current popular discourse (although I am sure it depends on who you are interacting with). A book I quite liked on the topic is Phoebe Maltz Bovy's The Perils of Privilege. (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250091208) I think it's pretty thoughtful and even-handed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/03/23/the-last-thing-on-privilege-youll-ever-need-to-read/
Oh, I'm not in disagreement. Much of leftbook is a cesspit of opression olympics to put oneself in the least privilege position to force an interlocutor to self-crit and going into silence.
That doesn't excuse the Jordan Petersons of the internet saying stuff like it doesn't exist because - snarl-word - Post-Modernist Marxists, which is an oxymoron.5 -
I think that body positivity can be really important. People shouldn’t feel their worth or value is tied to certain body traits.
It’s easy for people to try and push acceptance for themselves by putting down another group (by saying that REAL women have curves or pushing thinness as an ideal goal) but what I’ve seen/heard of body positivity is that it’s trying to just promote that all bodies are okay.
I know it’s not exactly the same, but I also support fat acceptance, because I have seen some people have an attitude that like.. they are okay w body positivity EXCEPT if you are fat/obese. And I don’t think that’s helpful. If someone is fat, they still matter as a person and it’s okay for them to exist without trying desperately to not be fat. Their weight isn’t the most important thing about them and it might not even be something they need to focus on.6 -
These movements grow in roughly the same manner - from a legitimate concern which needs to be reviewed, but once addressed the momentum isn't stopped. People are too invested into the political animus and branch far beyond, so movements unreliant on competency inevitably trend to corruption - unchecked consolidation of power.
What is the purpose of recognizing privilege? Is there a resulting action from this? If one was to conduct a comparative analysis of successful and unsuccessful individuals and adapt behaviors to better prepare the unsuccessful, then this has potential for good. If used to remove "roadblocks" this has potential for good. Check the system for systemic unfairness - again potential for good. If simply used to fulfill a narcissistic need to justify fantasy and reject reality, then there is no potential for good. If used politically to pit one group against another - while there may be a theoretical potential for good historically this has resulted in starvation and genocide.
It's also incredibly dishonest (although insidiously brilliant) how binary thought results in very specific recognition of privilege in certain areas while completely ignoring others. Although I suspect this will continue to increase given time as a good majority active seek and promote some manner of how they do are part of a victim class. It is far easier to destroy than create, as such far easier to criticize others than change your behavior.
There's a foundational flaw in the logic which presumes that man is good and that if the system were to only be tweaked, life would be better. Reality is quite the opposite as your chances of making this worse greatly exceed your chances for improving anything for anyone. Man has an equal capacity for good and evil, but left unchecked trends to evil. The most effective means of mitigating this is serving a higher purpose beyond the individual - beyond generations.
Another foundational flaw is that of zero sum - that the assets are fixed. The resentful look at whoever they see as having life better and cannot see beyond privilege - skinny genes, high metabolism, etc. The fit did not get so by making the obese, nor did the obese suffer at the hands of the fit. Assets in nearly all systems are variable - they expand and contract - are created and destroyed.
The fatal flaw in privilege, and this also lies at the heart of postmoderism is the limit of scope. Any hypothesis worth review is taken to extreme to ensure consistency. Privilege is highly scoped by very specific criteria to establish a false narrative to gain political power. Competency for example is a very real privilege. The competent are given increasing challenges while the incompetent are given less. Attractiveness, sex, sexual orientation, gender, age, hair color, eye color, height, weight, epidermal pigmentation, IQ, EQ, culture, race, creed, genetics - carried out infinitesimally this brings us and infinitesimal number of privileges, which brings us inevitably to the individual. No two humans think and act the same every time - and you've once again stumbled into the age of enlightenment. Congratulations! You've discovered what we figured out 300 years ago (which figured out what we knew 2000 years ago).
6 -
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it. I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem
Same here - just another bad habit that needs kicking into touch. My life just seems to be a succession of things I have to stop doing... At least i can enjoy my privilege (for now!)
Just a mild suggestion: Don't stop. You seem like a smart, decent guy: You should hang around, and join in.
Learn to recognize that chemical rush you mentioned, and stop before you hit post. Read again, think more, post something less polemical, something that fosters communication or connection.
There could be a chemical rush from that, too, ya never know.
We tend to be horrible at communication, or at least much worse than we believe ourselves to be. We don't even process information as we believe we do. We like to think we seek out all information and scientifically deduce what is fact and what is false, but in reality we operate by confirmation bias - come up with a notion and only focus on information we already know to be true.
The only counter to this is engaged debate, for if we stop talking to one another we tend to believe our own BS. Historically this means war.
A mentor gave me what he termed the 24 hour rule. If he received an email that he first interpreted as combative he would respond with "I received your note and will get back to you by end of day tomorrow", then he would take time to consider the intent of the message and put the author into the most positive light, then allowing himself 24 hours to cool off and carefully respond.
1 -
Certain groups of people go too far whilst striving for acceptance to the point they identify obesity just as some unshakeable part of who they are and take any comments or advice related to such as an attack against their very person. It's an extremist coping mechanism that people need to be snapped out of. Failure is a part of the journey that helps you grow as a person. Every time you get back up is imperative, it is crucial, it means you're living and you're fighting for a better life, a real, genuine life you can proudly call your own. Would you rather be surrounded by people who will help you fight for that dream, or would you surround yourself with convenient frauds who will pamper you all the way to your early coffin, just as you them? It's a slow, painful death too. That will wake a lot of people up, but for some of them it will already be too late. It's never too late, until you're dead.
Failure is not an excuse to give up, it's a reason to fight. Because they fail so much to succeed in getting rid of it, they'd rather just accept it and see it in a positive light and anyone who doesn't agree is just a bad judgmental person to them. It's simultaneously ridiculous yet also not surprising that such a toxic ideal has become so endorsed by the general population. I don't want to be friends with someone who wouldn't even have the balls to call me out on my bad behavior, and that goes both ways. I was never body positive, more so in the opposite direction to a fault. I have a tendency to be very negative about my body to the point I feel like I am never doing enough to improve, although I am never this way to others. What's important is maintaining a balanced perspective and staying focused on what truly matters and helping people reach healthy conclusions without being condescending, hateful or otherwise. Trying to make obesity normalized, promoting it and glorifying it is no different than glorifying any other disease. It's an insane and weak thing to do.
Humans should strive to be better than that of course. But at the same time, at the other end of the board lies extremist body negativity that just makes people feel bad, hated, alienated and inhuman. It's not good to surround yourself with people who breed too much negativity or too much artificial positivity. Focus on yourself and focus on what is right in front of you, always look forward, failures and all.2 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
Having the time to workout is a privilege, yes. Having time to buy and prepare non calorie dense is also a privilege. If we want to get right down to it, being able to be secure in the fact that you won't have to make the choice between food, keeping the water on, and keeping the electricity on is also a privilege.
But choosing not to put excessive amounts of the calorie dense food in one's mouth is a personal decision, not a privilege.
Having the choice is a privilege. Where "choice" means not living in a food dessert, not working so many jobs that you don't have the time to cook, not having to worry about whether or not you pay your utility bills, not having to make use of a food bank, etc. If you have the choice between a wide range of foods to eat (and thus how many nutritionally dense items you're consuming), that is a privilege.8 -
And let me be very clear. I am not assuming than anyone is "choosing" to have xyz privilege in most instances. You don't get to choose to be white, male, born in a specific country, etc. Even when people are able to make choices that are related to privilege (religion for example), I don't think people are saying, "oh I know what's a good idea - becoming a Christian so I can get various holidays off without any effort!" Never mind to that it's not an easy "this person has privilege and this person doesn't". It's not black and white because people have intersecting identities.
This is also not something that one person or small group of people created or decided on. It's a systemic issue that has been stoked for centuries. Yes you can choose to be racist, sexist, transphobic, anti-semitic, islamaphobic, homophobic, xenophobic, etc, but the privilege someone has in, for instance, being a white, cisgender, Protestant man born and raised in the US whose family didn't recently immigrate (within a few generations) isn't something that they chose.
Whether or not you acknowledge your privilege, however, is a whole other thing. That is a choice that someone can make. One can also make a decision as to whether or not they're going to try to chip away at the inequality caused by privilege that various groups have.3 -
These movements grow in roughly the same manner - from a legitimate concern which needs to be reviewed, but once addressed the momentum isn't stopped. People are too invested into the political animus and branch far beyond, so movements unreliant on competency inevitably trend to corruption - unchecked consolidation of power.
"These movements?"
"People"?
I think (hope) you know, from experience across threads, that I like and respect you . . . but I have to say, sometimes I feel as if you have an extreme affection for the Grand Generalization. :flowerforyou:
In my weird ol' world, generalizations are mostly words about words, not so much words about things. ( <== Even this one ). Lots (too much) gets left out.
For me, personally, the point of recognizing (my) privilege is to feel gratitude for where I find myself, to recognize that (often) it's completely unearned, to school myself toward compassion for people differently situated, and to recognize that my situation can sometimes (if I'm lucky) create a platform from which I could potentially help others.
What is the purpose of recognizing privilege? Is there a resulting action from this? If one was to conduct a comparative analysis of successful and unsuccessful individuals and adapt behaviors to better prepare the unsuccessful, then this has potential for good. If used to remove "roadblocks" this has potential for good. Check the system for systemic unfairness - again potential for good. If simply used to fulfill a narcissistic need to justify fantasy and reject reality, then there is no potential for good. If used politically to pit one group against another - while there may be a theoretical potential for good historically this has resulted in starvation and genocide.
Recognizing (my) absence of privilege is to me kind of academic, sometimes gives me a little help in organizing my thoughts, or recognizing opportunities/barriers I need to consider, but that's about it. It's no kind of pulpit, that's for sure**.
I understand that sometimes people use others' "privilege" as a club to strike with, which is way beyond silly, but I also believe that denying that privilege exists at all is myopic.
**ETA: Well, mostly. I do know more about how it feels to be part of a group or class I belong to, than people not in that group or class do, and I get to talk about that. Not grandstand, though, ideally.
It's also incredibly dishonest (although insidiously brilliant) how binary thought results in very specific recognition of privilege in certain areas while completely ignoring others. Although I suspect this will continue to increase given time as a good majority active seek and promote some manner of how they do are part of a victim class. It is far easier to destroy than create, as such far easier to criticize others than change your behavior.
There's a foundational flaw in the logic which presumes that man is good and that if the system were to only be tweaked, life would be better. Reality is quite the opposite as your chances of making this worse greatly exceed your chances for improving anything for anyone. Man has an equal capacity for good and evil, but left unchecked trends to evil. The most effective means of mitigating this is serving a higher purpose beyond the individual - beyond generations.
I feel like you're positing some presumed other here, and arguing against him/her. There has been very little in this thread of participants claiming they are a part of a victim class and making that an excuse for not changing their behavior. I would not say that recognizing oneself as a member of a disadvantaged class, with respect to particular circumstances, is identical to being or feeling like a "victim". To the contrary, that recognition can be material to formulating strategies for moving forward productively.
I agree that it's common to assume things that are not zero sum, are zero sum. Some resources are limited, others are not. I feel like this is a subcase of thinking in snapshots, as contrasted with thinking in dynamic systems (also common) . . . thinking in nouns, as it were, more than thinking in verbs.
Another foundational flaw is that of zero sum - that the assets are fixed. The resentful look at whoever they see as having life better and cannot see beyond privilege - skinny genes, high metabolism, etc. The fit did not get so by making the obese, nor did the obese suffer at the hands of the fit. Assets in nearly all systems are variable - they expand and contract - are created and destroyed.
The fatal flaw in privilege, and this also lies at the heart of postmoderism is the limit of scope. Any hypothesis worth review is taken to extreme to ensure consistency. Privilege is highly scoped by very specific criteria to establish a false narrative to gain political power. Competency for example is a very real privilege. The competent are given increasing challenges while the incompetent are given less. Attractiveness, sex, sexual orientation, gender, age, hair color, eye color, height, weight, epidermal pigmentation, IQ, EQ, culture, race, creed, genetics - carried out infinitesimally this brings us and infinitesimal number of privileges, which brings us inevitably to the individual. No two humans think and act the same every time - and you've once again stumbled into the age of enlightenment. Congratulations! You've discovered what we figured out 300 years ago (which figured out what we knew 2000 years ago).
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Who is pursuing the reductio ad whatever here? Me? You? "Postmodernism"? Someone else? The extreme implication is not a failproof test of a concept's utility at a less-extreme point, regardless. Short of the laws of physics, few generalizations are universally accurate or useful.
I can think of limited circumstances (i.e., some, not lots) where competence has been treated as if it were a privilege, but I don't think that's a common way of looking at it.
If we are to generalize at all, to use abstractions, then it seems (to me) inarguable that at any point in history, some advantages tend to apply to belonging to certain groups, in an approximate (i.e., not entirely universal) kind of way. That effect of group advantage/disadvantage seems worthy of consideration, when we consider individuals . . . but I think one can hold in mind simultaneously the competing (?) idea that each individual is in fact an individual, when dealing with a specific person. Even when generalizing about groups (possibly a.k.a. stereotyping), it's essential to keep in mind that we're abstracting, and that individuals within the group will differ, sometime differing so much that the generality doesn't apply.
Part of what makes thinking difficult . . . .
5 -
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
Actually...
There is a documented correlation between poverty and obesity. There are parts of North America where the nearest grocery store, Walmart or farm is over an hour's drive away. But if you don't have a car and you're working 2-3 jobs to avoid homelessness, what can you do? You eat what you can get your hands on. Even if that means Fruit Loops, Ramen, and mac & cheese with hot dogs every day. Moreover, not everyone has access to the internet. If you can get to a computer with internet, you're looking for basic survival tools (jobs, apartments, childcare, etc.). You're not thinking about thinking about home exercise programs that you might be able to fit in between your jobs.
Plus, when you're straddling the poverty lines, it's harder to see long term gains. And in the short term, the unhealthy stuff is cheaper. Why pay $2.99 for a portion of trail mix when you can buy a huge bag of Cheetos for $1? And, when eating the processed stuff, you don't have to eat much (i.e., often) to gain weight. Between the water retention from the high sodium content and the calorie density of the food, you can easily gain weight eating only two meals a day. But, at the same time, because of the low nutrition value of these calorie dense food, you'll need to eat larger portions to feel satiated.
I used to be a die hard "you can eat healthy on a budget!" people until I met someone who is actually living in an honest to goodness Food Dessert. My eyes were opened to their struggle the moment she called my simple green salad with homemade dressing "rich people food." Since my salad is part of my "budget friendly" rotation, I did some research and learned the following:-
[li] while many Farmer's Markets support WIC and SNAP,
[li] the neighborhood "stores" are no better than gas stations,[/li]
[li] if UPS delivers to your neighborhood, they'd leave your grocery box in a place where the neighborhood crackheads and homeless can steal your *kitten* before you know it's there, and [/li]
[li] Most people only donate to food banks around Xmas and it's usually expired or nearly expired junk food.[/li]
Instead of being judgmental, we need to step up as a community and help these people live better. Donate beans, rice, plain pasta, canned vegetables and other minimally processed foods to your local food bank once a month. Talk to your company about creating a Sit 'n Stretch or walking club. Talk to your boss about accepting Thrive (or other grocery delivery) boxes at work. Drop off healthy dishes to your overworked/over-tired neighbors. Volunteer for food insecurity focused organizations (like soup kitchens, MOW, etc.). Volunteer to drive someone to the grocery store once a month.... Believe it or not, these things take less energy than judging.9 -
Me and my friend were messing around in a jacuzzi in our bikinis on vacation and had it up on our stories on instagram. We got so much hate off people saying stuff like "she loves herself" "get some clothes on" ect. Yet the last few months all over social media I've been seeing bigger women posting pictures posing in underwear/bikinis with long captions about body positivity and self love. These women were being praised while I was being teared down just because we are some peoples standard of beauty dosn't mean we don't have insecurites. I have things I don't like about myself but there I was trying to love myself and my body but that wasn't allowed. The people who were giving us hate would be the same type of people who'd post about body positivity.
In general.... that’s my observation too. If you’re good looking and you come off as confident - it’s frowned upon. You should be hush hush about it. But when it’s vice versa those women get praised- they are “admirable. Which to me comes off as pretentious.
Seems like a girl has to be insecure and not up to today’s beauty standards first to be like “ damn I look good”.
When I see girls cocky af I’m happy for them. And if others have a problem with it, that’s their issue. Get over it.
Do you want girls to be confident or not?
2 -
Me and my friend were messing around in a jacuzzi in our bikinis on vacation and had it up on our stories on instagram. We got so much hate off people saying stuff like "she loves herself" "get some clothes on" ect. Yet the last few months all over social media I've been seeing bigger women posting pictures posing in underwear/bikinis with long captions about body positivity and self love. These women were being praised while I was being teared down just because we are some peoples standard of beauty dosn't mean we don't have insecurites. I have things I don't like about myself but there I was trying to love myself and my body but that wasn't allowed. The people who were giving us hate would be the same type of people who'd post about body positivity.
In general.... that’s my observation too. If you’re good looking and you come off as confident - it’s frowned upon. You should be hush hush about it. But when it’s vice versa those women get praised- they are “admirable. Which to me comes off as pretentious.
Seems like a girl has to be insecure and not up to today’s beauty standards first to be like “ damn I look good”.
When I see girls cocky af I’m happy for them. And if others have a problem with it, that’s their issue. Get over it.
Do you want girls to be confident or not?
While the internet can certainly be an awful place for everyone, particularly women, both skinny and obese, I really don't think we live in some sort of world where being obese is praised and being skinny is criticized. You know how I know? If you were to give 100 obese women the chance to be skinny overnight tomorrow, and 100 skinny women the chance to be obese, almost all the obese women would take it and I don't think one of the skinny women would.
Body positivity is for skinny women (and men) as well as obese women (men), and as society we should try to be better to people of all sizes. But I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that somehow obese women have it easier.10 -
These movements grow in roughly the same manner - from a legitimate concern which needs to be reviewed, but once addressed the momentum isn't stopped. People are too invested into the political animus and branch far beyond, so movements unreliant on competency inevitably trend to corruption - unchecked consolidation of power.
"These movements?"
"People"?
I think (hope) you know, from experience across threads, that I like and respect you . . . but I have to say, sometimes I feel as if you have an extreme affection for the Grand Generalization. :flowerforyou:
In my weird ol' world, generalizations are mostly words about words, not so much words about things. ( <== Even this one ). Lots (too much) gets left out.
For me, personally, the point of recognizing (my) privilege is to feel gratitude for where I find myself, to recognize that (often) it's completely unearned, to school myself toward compassion for people differently situated, and to recognize that my situation can sometimes (if I'm lucky) create a platform from which I could potentially help others.
What is the purpose of recognizing privilege? Is there a resulting action from this? If one was to conduct a comparative analysis of successful and unsuccessful individuals and adapt behaviors to better prepare the unsuccessful, then this has potential for good. If used to remove "roadblocks" this has potential for good. Check the system for systemic unfairness - again potential for good. If simply used to fulfill a narcissistic need to justify fantasy and reject reality, then there is no potential for good. If used politically to pit one group against another - while there may be a theoretical potential for good historically this has resulted in starvation and genocide.
Recognizing (my) absence of privilege is to me kind of academic, sometimes gives me a little help in organizing my thoughts, or recognizing opportunities/barriers I need to consider, but that's about it. It's no kind of pulpit, that's for sure**.
I understand that sometimes people use others' "privilege" as a club to strike with, which is way beyond silly, but I also believe that denying that privilege exists at all is myopic.
**ETA: Well, mostly. I do know more about how it feels to be part of a group or class I belong to, than people not in that group or class do, and I get to talk about that. Not grandstand, though, ideally.
It's also incredibly dishonest (although insidiously brilliant) how binary thought results in very specific recognition of privilege in certain areas while completely ignoring others. Although I suspect this will continue to increase given time as a good majority active seek and promote some manner of how they do are part of a victim class. It is far easier to destroy than create, as such far easier to criticize others than change your behavior.
There's a foundational flaw in the logic which presumes that man is good and that if the system were to only be tweaked, life would be better. Reality is quite the opposite as your chances of making this worse greatly exceed your chances for improving anything for anyone. Man has an equal capacity for good and evil, but left unchecked trends to evil. The most effective means of mitigating this is serving a higher purpose beyond the individual - beyond generations.
I feel like you're positing some presumed other here, and arguing against him/her. There has been very little in this thread of participants claiming they are a part of a victim class and making that an excuse for not changing their behavior. I would not say that recognizing oneself as a member of a disadvantaged class, with respect to particular circumstances, is identical to being or feeling like a "victim". To the contrary, that recognition can be material to formulating strategies for moving forward productively.
I agree that it's common to assume things that are not zero sum, are zero sum. Some resources are limited, others are not. I feel like this is a subcase of thinking in snapshots, as contrasted with thinking in dynamic systems (also common) . . . thinking in nouns, as it were, more than thinking in verbs.
Another foundational flaw is that of zero sum - that the assets are fixed. The resentful look at whoever they see as having life better and cannot see beyond privilege - skinny genes, high metabolism, etc. The fit did not get so by making the obese, nor did the obese suffer at the hands of the fit. Assets in nearly all systems are variable - they expand and contract - are created and destroyed.
The fatal flaw in privilege, and this also lies at the heart of postmoderism is the limit of scope. Any hypothesis worth review is taken to extreme to ensure consistency. Privilege is highly scoped by very specific criteria to establish a false narrative to gain political power. Competency for example is a very real privilege. The competent are given increasing challenges while the incompetent are given less. Attractiveness, sex, sexual orientation, gender, age, hair color, eye color, height, weight, epidermal pigmentation, IQ, EQ, culture, race, creed, genetics - carried out infinitesimally this brings us and infinitesimal number of privileges, which brings us inevitably to the individual. No two humans think and act the same every time - and you've once again stumbled into the age of enlightenment. Congratulations! You've discovered what we figured out 300 years ago (which figured out what we knew 2000 years ago).
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Who is pursuing the reductio ad whatever here? Me? You? "Postmodernism"? Someone else? The extreme implication is not a failproof test of a concept's utility at a less-extreme point, regardless. Short of the laws of physics, few generalizations are universally accurate or useful.
I can think of limited circumstances (i.e., some, not lots) where competence has been treated as if it were a privilege, but I don't think that's a common way of looking at it.
If we are to generalize at all, to use abstractions, then it seems (to me) inarguable that at any point in history, some advantages tend to apply to belonging to certain groups, in an approximate (i.e., not entirely universal) kind of way. That effect of group advantage/disadvantage seems worthy of consideration, when we consider individuals . . . but I think one can hold in mind simultaneously the competing (?) idea that each individual is in fact an individual, when dealing with a specific person. Even when generalizing about groups (possibly a.k.a. stereotyping), it's essential to keep in mind that we're abstracting, and that individuals within the group will differ, sometime differing so much that the generality doesn't apply.
Part of what makes thinking difficult . . . .
I see things from a philosophical perspective or human nature in general. Specifically within the body positive movement it begins with legitimacy. A group of people feel victimized and come together to gain strength and to right wrongs. They form an argument and present this to a larger group, which reviews the claim and agrees, disagrees, or requires additional information. Awareness is brought, laws are changed. ....but then what happens to the leaders within the movement? They have power, continue to use this, and as humans behave, overextend their reach, or worse - serve the interest of a corrupt narcissist. The once sympathizing public has had enough once they realize there is no intent for mutual betterment.
I very much agree that recognizing one's privilege and responding with gratitude is virtuous. Gratitude is one of the foundations to happiness and a virtuous life. To the counter if you insist upon another recognizing their privilege this ceases to be virtuous - this is envy. Privilege exists from multiple causes - some we have control over and some beyond our control. If you apply this knowledge to equalizing opportunity it has the potential for good. If your intent is to control the outcome....well I'm hard pressed to think of anything that would produce more evil results.
Also recongizing that the same generalization is inherent within the concept of privilege. If one would simply bring a specific greivance against an individual and prove that they were wronged, there would be little debate. To indict based upon generalization is fruitless.
My gripe against the postmodernism is the abject lack of academic rigor and sheer laziness involved. I saw this occur in the humanities departments in the early 1990s. Like a cancer, but killing reason. Despite continuous ridicule it seems to continually emerge and has effectively destroyed the humanities.
Brilliant article by Richard Dawkins on the pseudointellectualism postmodernism develops:
https://physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/dawkins.html
Another personal favorite is the privilege addressed by postmodernist "scholar" Luce Irigaray:
"E=mc2 is a "sexed equation" because it "privileges the speed of light over other speeds that are vitally necessary to us"
Another Sokal hoax exposing this in academia:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/new-sokal-hoax/572212/
I guess this serves as the counter to iron sharpens iron. Mud sharpens nothing.2 -
Me and my friend were messing around in a jacuzzi in our bikinis on vacation and had it up on our stories on instagram. We got so much hate off people saying stuff like "she loves herself" "get some clothes on" ect. Yet the last few months all over social media I've been seeing bigger women posting pictures posing in underwear/bikinis with long captions about body positivity and self love. These women were being praised while I was being teared down just because we are some peoples standard of beauty dosn't mean we don't have insecurites. I have things I don't like about myself but there I was trying to love myself and my body but that wasn't allowed. The people who were giving us hate would be the same type of people who'd post about body positivity.
In general.... that’s my observation too. If you’re good looking and you come off as confident - it’s frowned upon. You should be hush hush about it. But when it’s vice versa those women get praised- they are “admirable. Which to me comes off as pretentious.
Seems like a girl has to be insecure and not up to today’s beauty standards first to be like “ damn I look good”.
When I see girls cocky af I’m happy for them. And if others have a problem with it, that’s their issue. Get over it.
Do you want girls to be confident or not?
While the internet can certainly be an awful place for everyone, particularly women, both skinny and obese, I really don't think we live in some sort of world where being obese is praised and being skinny is criticized. You know how I know? If you were to give 100 obese women the chance to be skinny overnight tomorrow, and 100 skinny women the chance to be obese, almost all the obese women would take it and I don't think one of the skinny women would.
Body positivity is for skinny women (and men) as well as obese women (men), and as society we should try to be better to people of all sizes. But I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that somehow obese women have it easier.
From what I’ve heard and seen with my own two eyes and ears, from being around young girls and women, and from my own experience... I was relating to what dolly said. I get what she’s saying. This isn’t the “ who has it worse” olympics btw. It’s personal experience. Ok?
I’m not talking about who gets criticized more for being overweight vs normal sized. I was more so talking about how it seems to me that it’s more frowned upon for girls who are considered beautiful in today’s society to express their confidence vs someone who isn’t considered beautiful.
If a bigger girl says damn I look good people will praise her and be like “ yas girl yas”
Beautiful girl says the same thing- it leaves a bad taste in others mouth
Why not have the same energy for everyone.
It’s like you can’t be sexy and know it. It’s not as ok to express it. Does society want confident girls or not?
2 -
[/quote]
There are parts of North America where the nearest grocery store, Walmart or farm is over an hour's drive away. But if you don't have a car and you're working 2-3 jobs to avoid homelessness, what can you do?[/quote]
If the nearest grocery store or Wal-Mart is over an hour's drive away you are in a very rural area and would have to have a car to get to your jobs.0 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Libraries are great. Libraries also frequently have limited hours. The times people who work "day jobs" have free are the same times that libraries are closed. Also, I'm guessing that most libraries are going to at least ponder whether they really want people working out in the space next to the computer station to YouTube cardio and bodyweight videos.
Pretty sure we've already clarified that I was not suggesting that people go to the library to workout.
I have lots of privilege. Being able to keep up with threads that add two or three pages of posts a day is not an aspect of my privilege. If I waited until I had caught up on every thread before posting, I would never post anything.0 -
These movements grow in roughly the same manner - from a legitimate concern which needs to be reviewed, but once addressed the momentum isn't stopped. People are too invested into the political animus and branch far beyond, so movements unreliant on competency inevitably trend to corruption - unchecked consolidation of power.
What is the purpose of recognizing privilege? Is there a resulting action from this? If one was to conduct a comparative analysis of successful and unsuccessful individuals and adapt behaviors to better prepare the unsuccessful, then this has potential for good. If used to remove "roadblocks" this has potential for good. Check the system for systemic unfairness - again potential for good. If simply used to fulfill a narcissistic need to justify fantasy and reject reality, then there is no potential for good. If used politically to pit one group against another - while there may be a theoretical potential for good historically this has resulted in starvation and genocide.
It's also incredibly dishonest (although insidiously brilliant) how binary thought results in very specific recognition of privilege in certain areas while completely ignoring others. Although I suspect this will continue to increase given time as a good majority active seek and promote some manner of how they do are part of a victim class. It is far easier to destroy than create, as such far easier to criticize others than change your behavior.
There's a foundational flaw in the logic which presumes that man is good and that if the system were to only be tweaked, life would be better. Reality is quite the opposite as your chances of making this worse greatly exceed your chances for improving anything for anyone. Man has an equal capacity for good and evil, but left unchecked trends to evil. The most effective means of mitigating this is serving a higher purpose beyond the individual - beyond generations.
Another foundational flaw is that of zero sum - that the assets are fixed. The resentful look at whoever they see as having life better and cannot see beyond privilege - skinny genes, high metabolism, etc. The fit did not get so by making the obese, nor did the obese suffer at the hands of the fit. Assets in nearly all systems are variable - they expand and contract - are created and destroyed.
The fatal flaw in privilege, and this also lies at the heart of postmoderism is the limit of scope. Any hypothesis worth review is taken to extreme to ensure consistency. Privilege is highly scoped by very specific criteria to establish a false narrative to gain political power. Competency for example is a very real privilege. The competent are given increasing challenges while the incompetent are given less. Attractiveness, sex, sexual orientation, gender, age, hair color, eye color, height, weight, epidermal pigmentation, IQ, EQ, culture, race, creed, genetics - carried out infinitesimally this brings us and infinitesimal number of privileges, which brings us inevitably to the individual. No two humans think and act the same every time - and you've once again stumbled into the age of enlightenment. Congratulations! You've discovered what we figured out 300 years ago (which figured out what we knew 2000 years ago).
So, the bolded sentence isn't using privilege in the way that it is used by most people who think talking about privilege is an important and enlightening thing to do sometimes. To them, privilege is not the inherent genetic characteristic you have (like skinny genes or high metabolism, or even being white or male). Privilege is all the benefits society accords you because you have characteristic, including the privilege of not having to even notice that you get benefits that people who don't have that characteristic don't get.
3 -
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it. I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem
Same here - just another bad habit that needs kicking into touch. My life just seems to be a succession of things I have to stop doing... At least i can enjoy my privilege (for now!)
Just a mild suggestion: Don't stop. You seem like a smart, decent guy: You should hang around, and join in.
Learn to recognize that chemical rush you mentioned, and stop before you hit post. Read again, think more, post something less polemical, something that fosters communication or connection.
There could be a chemical rush from that, too, ya never know.
Thanks! There is a chemical rush but it's just a lot slower than the instant gratification from drugs/alcohol/sugar/internet drama.. Slowing it all down and regulating the dopamine (is it dopamine) flow seems to be the catch all for all of it.
What I've noticed is that I get 'triggered' when people use the word privilege to suggest that someone has achieved the results in their life because of privilege when that person in fact has made very touch choices, gone without, swapped instant for delayed gratification and worked very hard to get what they want out of life.
My observation is that the word privilege has been so badly abused that it's now just an object of ridicule (just watch South Park). What I'm seeing is myself now is a tendency to get triggered which I will work through, in future if I see a thread about body positivity in a diet and fitness forum I'll think 'Yeah that's gonna be a doozy..' and not even open it up.4 -
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
Actually...
There is a documented correlation between poverty and obesity. There are parts of North America where the nearest grocery store, Walmart or farm is over an hour's drive away. But if you don't have a car and you're working 2-3 jobs to avoid homelessness, what can you do? You eat what you can get your hands on. Even if that means Fruit Loops, Ramen, and mac & cheese with hot dogs every day. Moreover, not everyone has access to the internet. If you can get to a computer with internet, you're looking for basic survival tools (jobs, apartments, childcare, etc.). You're not thinking about thinking about home exercise programs that you might be able to fit in between your jobs.
Plus, when you're straddling the poverty lines, it's harder to see long term gains. And in the short term, the unhealthy stuff is cheaper. Why pay $2.99 for a portion of trail mix when you can buy a huge bag of Cheetos for $1? And, when eating the processed stuff, you don't have to eat much (i.e., often) to gain weight. Between the water retention from the high sodium content and the calorie density of the food, you can easily gain weight eating only two meals a day. But, at the same time, because of the low nutrition value of these calorie dense food, you'll need to eat larger portions to feel satiated.
I used to be a die hard "you can eat healthy on a budget!" people until I met someone who is actually living in an honest to goodness Food Dessert. My eyes were opened to their struggle the moment she called my simple green salad with homemade dressing "rich people food." Since my salad is part of my "budget friendly" rotation, I did some research and learned the following:-
[li] while many Farmer's Markets support WIC and SNAP,
[li] the neighborhood "stores" are no better than gas stations,[/li]
[li] if UPS delivers to your neighborhood, they'd leave your grocery box in a place where the neighborhood crackheads and homeless can steal your *kitten* before you know it's there, and [/li]
[li] Most people only donate to food banks around Xmas and it's usually expired or nearly expired junk food.[/li]
Instead of being judgmental, we need to step up as a community and help these people live better. Donate beans, rice, plain pasta, canned vegetables and other minimally processed foods to your local food bank once a month. Talk to your company about creating a Sit 'n Stretch or walking club. Talk to your boss about accepting Thrive (or other grocery delivery) boxes at work. Drop off healthy dishes to your overworked/over-tired neighbors. Volunteer for food insecurity focused organizations (like soup kitchens, MOW, etc.). Volunteer to drive someone to the grocery store once a month.... Believe it or not, these things take less energy than judging.
This makes sense, I'd be interested to see if there are stats that show what % of obese/overweight people are in this income bracket. So let's say that there is a section of the (US) population who genuinely are in bad shape because of poverty - what about the others?
I think the judgemental stuff is aimed at those who do have the choice of what they can eat. There are a lot of 'privileged' people who absolutely do have the choice and choose not to.
The issue I see is that a big part of making positive life choices and sticking to them is developing mental strength, resilience and staying motivated. There is a whole motivation section of this forum dedicated to helping people with that part and the introductions section is full of 'hey I'm back again' posts from people who struggle with this.
This is hard work, it takes a long time, there are no instant results, we fall off the wagon, sometimes it looks and feels like we're just spinning our wheels - but we carry on and do the work required to develop new habits and lifestyles.
I firmly believe that the 'check your privilege' mindset runs counter to this and does not help anyone who is unhappy about themselves and wants to change. Maybe re-frame it as something like 'yeah it's unfair and that sucks, life is like that and unfortunately it's not going to change. The only thing you can do is take the cards you've been dealt and make the best of them because no one is going to do that for you - and hey, once you get going it's actually really rewarding and empowering'
Kind of like a personal responsibility bootcamp to build the foundations of long term habit/lifestyle change. The first thing to go is excuses, including other people's 'priviledge' - that stuff's just holding you back.3 -
Thanks! There is a chemical rush but it's just a lot slower than the instant gratification from drugs/alcohol/sugar/internet drama.. Slowing it all down and regulating the dopamine (is it dopamine) flow seems to be the catch all for all of it.
What I've noticed is that I get 'triggered' when people use the word privilege to suggest that someone has achieved the results in their life because of privilege when that person in fact has made very touch choices, gone without, swapped instant for delayed gratification and worked very hard to get what they want out of life.
My observation is that the word privilege has been so badly abused that it's now just an object of ridicule (just watch South Park). What I'm seeing is myself now is a tendency to get triggered which I will work through, in future if I see a thread about body positivity in a diet and fitness forum I'll think 'Yeah that's gonna be a doozy..' and not even open it up.
I just cannot agree with that bold hard enough, and privilege isn't the only term that's been abused badly. In keeping with the topic though, I'll stick with mbaker566's assertion that it's largely a matter of perspective, until it isn't. What I mean by that is that things like white privilege are real. I just don't think it's as much of a factor as a few make it out to be. Anecdote incoming:
I was out with a friend of mine who asked if I would like to look at apartments with her. She had an appointment at one complex. It was a "high end" kind of place, but she had the money. Highly educated, great job etc. She's also African American. The manager at the rental office met her, apologized and stated that the last available unit was just taken. As we were leaving a white woman came in and as my and I were chatting about where to go next, we over heard this woman state clearly that she just thought she would stop in and see if anything was available. The managers reply? "Of course, we have a couple. How many bedrooms do you want?"
This was blatant racism and "white privilege" in full swing right in front of my eyes. That was 100% real, and is something that any decent person should resist.
I've also been told to "check my white privilege" which is hilarious to anyone who knows me. I'm Lebanese and Syrian lol. But I guess I look and speak white enough to merit that comment.
On the one hand, my life's experience lets me see both sides of the coin, but on the other, I've also learned to "keep it real". What privileges I'm blessed to have, I've worked hard for, and I'm very careful to never, ever minimize another person for having, or not having certain privilege. It's much easier to give people the benefit of the doubt and try to treat everyone equally.3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »These movements grow in roughly the same manner - from a legitimate concern which needs to be reviewed, but once addressed the momentum isn't stopped. People are too invested into the political animus and branch far beyond, so movements unreliant on competency inevitably trend to corruption - unchecked consolidation of power.
What is the purpose of recognizing privilege? Is there a resulting action from this? If one was to conduct a comparative analysis of successful and unsuccessful individuals and adapt behaviors to better prepare the unsuccessful, then this has potential for good. If used to remove "roadblocks" this has potential for good. Check the system for systemic unfairness - again potential for good. If simply used to fulfill a narcissistic need to justify fantasy and reject reality, then there is no potential for good. If used politically to pit one group against another - while there may be a theoretical potential for good historically this has resulted in starvation and genocide.
It's also incredibly dishonest (although insidiously brilliant) how binary thought results in very specific recognition of privilege in certain areas while completely ignoring others. Although I suspect this will continue to increase given time as a good majority active seek and promote some manner of how they do are part of a victim class. It is far easier to destroy than create, as such far easier to criticize others than change your behavior.
There's a foundational flaw in the logic which presumes that man is good and that if the system were to only be tweaked, life would be better. Reality is quite the opposite as your chances of making this worse greatly exceed your chances for improving anything for anyone. Man has an equal capacity for good and evil, but left unchecked trends to evil. The most effective means of mitigating this is serving a higher purpose beyond the individual - beyond generations.
Another foundational flaw is that of zero sum - that the assets are fixed. The resentful look at whoever they see as having life better and cannot see beyond privilege - skinny genes, high metabolism, etc. The fit did not get so by making the obese, nor did the obese suffer at the hands of the fit. Assets in nearly all systems are variable - they expand and contract - are created and destroyed.
The fatal flaw in privilege, and this also lies at the heart of postmoderism is the limit of scope. Any hypothesis worth review is taken to extreme to ensure consistency. Privilege is highly scoped by very specific criteria to establish a false narrative to gain political power. Competency for example is a very real privilege. The competent are given increasing challenges while the incompetent are given less. Attractiveness, sex, sexual orientation, gender, age, hair color, eye color, height, weight, epidermal pigmentation, IQ, EQ, culture, race, creed, genetics - carried out infinitesimally this brings us and infinitesimal number of privileges, which brings us inevitably to the individual. No two humans think and act the same every time - and you've once again stumbled into the age of enlightenment. Congratulations! You've discovered what we figured out 300 years ago (which figured out what we knew 2000 years ago).
So, the bolded sentence isn't using privilege in the way that it is used by most people who think talking about privilege is an important and enlightening thing to do sometimes. To them, privilege is not the inherent genetic characteristic you have (like skinny genes or high metabolism, or even being white or male). Privilege is all the benefits society accords you because you have characteristic, including the privilege of not having to even notice that you get benefits that people who don't have that characteristic don't get.
Then the correction would be to precisely define privilege and we can effectively debate. The next step would be to review data to verify that preconceived notions are indeed correct.
This would be acceptable and as you say enlightening if done in review of other key characteristics. If you're only looking at one trait, then as there are an infinite number of ways of viewing things, you have a corresponding chance of reaching an incorrect conclusion.0 -
I tried to embrace body positivity after getting help for my eating disorder.
I have to say, I started to change in a positive manner, until I dipped into the community, they are a militant group who want positivity towards people their shape but despise any women who fit society's standards, and don't like men because we are 'privillaged' with our bodies in society which is a load of BS.
For me body positivity was treating my body in a positive manner by stopping the self hate (which I have all my life) and been healthy.... But noooo mention weightloss and you will get people having a meltdown saying you're against the movement and fat positivity (which I am against)
All in all, the movent shouldn't be called body positivity, it should be called - fat advocate movement, because that's what they advocate, I'm not even sorry for saying that because I support people, I encourage people, but for supporting and encouraging people I'm apparently 'hateful' so I'm completely against the movement
But I strongly encourage people to be positive and nicer towards themselves.6 -
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
Actually...
There is a documented correlation between poverty and obesity. There are parts of North America where the nearest grocery store, Walmart or farm is over an hour's drive away. But if you don't have a car and you're working 2-3 jobs to avoid homelessness, what can you do? You eat what you can get your hands on. Even if that means Fruit Loops, Ramen, and mac & cheese with hot dogs every day. Moreover, not everyone has access to the internet. If you can get to a computer with internet, you're looking for basic survival tools (jobs, apartments, childcare, etc.). You're not thinking about thinking about home exercise programs that you might be able to fit in between your jobs.
Plus, when you're straddling the poverty lines, it's harder to see long term gains. And in the short term, the unhealthy stuff is cheaper. Why pay $2.99 for a portion of trail mix when you can buy a huge bag of Cheetos for $1? And, when eating the processed stuff, you don't have to eat much (i.e., often) to gain weight. Between the water retention from the high sodium content and the calorie density of the food, you can easily gain weight eating only two meals a day. But, at the same time, because of the low nutrition value of these calorie dense food, you'll need to eat larger portions to feel satiated.
I used to be a die hard "you can eat healthy on a budget!" people until I met someone who is actually living in an honest to goodness Food Dessert. My eyes were opened to their struggle the moment she called my simple green salad with homemade dressing "rich people food." Since my salad is part of my "budget friendly" rotation, I did some research and learned the following:-
[li] while many Farmer's Markets support WIC and SNAP,
[li] the neighborhood "stores" are no better than gas stations,[/li]
[li] if UPS delivers to your neighborhood, they'd leave your grocery box in a place where the neighborhood crackheads and homeless can steal your *kitten* before you know it's there, and [/li]
[li] Most people only donate to food banks around Xmas and it's usually expired or nearly expired junk food.[/li]
Instead of being judgmental, we need to step up as a community and help these people live better. Donate beans, rice, plain pasta, canned vegetables and other minimally processed foods to your local food bank once a month. Talk to your company about creating a Sit 'n Stretch or walking club. Talk to your boss about accepting Thrive (or other grocery delivery) boxes at work. Drop off healthy dishes to your overworked/over-tired neighbors. Volunteer for food insecurity focused organizations (like soup kitchens, MOW, etc.). Volunteer to drive someone to the grocery store once a month.... Believe it or not, these things take less energy than judging.
This makes sense, I'd be interested to see if there are stats that show what % of obese/overweight people are in this income bracket. So let's say that there is a section of the (US) population who genuinely are in bad shape because of poverty - what about the others?
I don't know why you are focusing on the US. There was a UK poster here recently who was saying the relationship between income and obesity was even greater in the UK -- probably because it's so common in all classes in the US, although I do think there's an income difference here too.
It's not mostly due to food deserts. Although food deserts are real, if you look at the stats it's a pretty small portion of the population affected by them. (And here in Chicago it's common for people who are in technical food deserts to work in other areas, accessible by public transit, so similarly they have access to real grocery stores and green markets, and we have some good green markets in poorer areas. There are of course still real barriers that poor people have that others do not -- and it would be wrong to ignore that -- but it's not as simplistic as some make it.)
Also, I'm not sure why some expensive "trail mix" is presumed to be more healthy than Cheerios or various other cereals, many of which have no sugar added, but that's an aside.I think the judgemental stuff is aimed at those who do have the choice of what they can eat. There are a lot of 'privileged' people who absolutely do have the choice and choose not to.
Sure, but you don't know what's going on with any particular person you see out and about, so why be judgmental? How does that help?The issue I see is that a big part of making positive life choices and sticking to them is developing mental strength, resilience and staying motivated. There is a whole motivation section of this forum dedicated to helping people with that part and the introductions section is full of 'hey I'm back again' posts from people who struggle with this.
This is hard work, it takes a long time, there are no instant results, we fall off the wagon, sometimes it looks and feels like we're just spinning our wheels - but we carry on and do the work required to develop new habits and lifestyles.
Yes, helping people is a good thing. No need to go around judging random people and assume they aren't the same ones who are trying.I firmly believe that the 'check your privilege' mindset runs counter to this and does not help anyone who is unhappy about themselves and wants to change. Maybe re-frame it as something like 'yeah it's unfair and that sucks, life is like that and unfortunately it's not going to change. The only thing you can do is take the cards you've been dealt and make the best of them because no one is going to do that for you - and hey, once you get going it's actually really rewarding and empowering'
Kind of like a personal responsibility bootcamp to build the foundations of long term habit/lifestyle change. The first thing to go is excuses, including other people's 'priviledge' - that stuff's just holding you back.
I think "check your privilege" is overused and ignores that people have all kinds of hardships (I again recommend the book I mentioned upthread), but I think realizing that you have some advantages that not everyone has is a healthy thing. I know I do, as well as some individual stumbling blocks that not everyone has.
On the whole I don't think it's that useful a concept for weight loss, since it brings in a political debate that's going to muddy the waters.
But just focusing on myself, there are times I find it really easy to exercise a good amount and eat a proper amount and lose or maintain weight, and other times I have not. I don't think I was a different person at those times, so I think more was going on to explain the differences. To help people, if that's your goal, I think you need to be able to empathize with the reasons it's hard for them. If you cannot, you likely are not the person who can help them.
For example, I find extreme pickiness or "fussiness" (a word I hate) with food, such as adult people saying "I won't eat vegetables or the like to be annoying and something I cannot empathize with. So I generally stay out of those threads.
All that aside, none of this has much to do with a thread on body positivity, which applies to people non obese and often quite fit, as well as overweight.4 -
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
Actually...
There is a documented correlation between poverty and obesity. There are parts of North America where the nearest grocery store, Walmart or farm is over an hour's drive away. But if you don't have a car and you're working 2-3 jobs to avoid homelessness, what can you do? You eat what you can get your hands on. Even if that means Fruit Loops, Ramen, and mac & cheese with hot dogs every day. Moreover, not everyone has access to the internet. If you can get to a computer with internet, you're looking for basic survival tools (jobs, apartments, childcare, etc.). You're not thinking about thinking about home exercise programs that you might be able to fit in between your jobs.
Plus, when you're straddling the poverty lines, it's harder to see long term gains. And in the short term, the unhealthy stuff is cheaper. Why pay $2.99 for a portion of trail mix when you can buy a huge bag of Cheetos for $1? And, when eating the processed stuff, you don't have to eat much (i.e., often) to gain weight. Between the water retention from the high sodium content and the calorie density of the food, you can easily gain weight eating only two meals a day. But, at the same time, because of the low nutrition value of these calorie dense food, you'll need to eat larger portions to feel satiated.
I used to be a die hard "you can eat healthy on a budget!" people until I met someone who is actually living in an honest to goodness Food Dessert. My eyes were opened to their struggle the moment she called my simple green salad with homemade dressing "rich people food." Since my salad is part of my "budget friendly" rotation, I did some research and learned the following:-
[li] while many Farmer's Markets support WIC and SNAP,
[li] the neighborhood "stores" are no better than gas stations,[/li]
[li] if UPS delivers to your neighborhood, they'd leave your grocery box in a place where the neighborhood crackheads and homeless can steal your *kitten* before you know it's there, and [/li]
[li] Most people only donate to food banks around Xmas and it's usually expired or nearly expired junk food.[/li]
Instead of being judgmental, we need to step up as a community and help these people live better. Donate beans, rice, plain pasta, canned vegetables and other minimally processed foods to your local food bank once a month. Talk to your company about creating a Sit 'n Stretch or walking club. Talk to your boss about accepting Thrive (or other grocery delivery) boxes at work. Drop off healthy dishes to your overworked/over-tired neighbors. Volunteer for food insecurity focused organizations (like soup kitchens, MOW, etc.). Volunteer to drive someone to the grocery store once a month.... Believe it or not, these things take less energy than judging.
This makes sense, I'd be interested to see if there are stats that show what % of obese/overweight people are in this income bracket. So let's say that there is a section of the (US) population who genuinely are in bad shape because of poverty - what about the others?
I don't know why you are focusing on the US. There was a UK poster here recently who was saying the relationship between income and obesity was even greater in the UK -- probably because it's so common in all classes in the US, although I do think there's an income difference here too.
It's not mostly due to food deserts. Although food deserts are real, if you look at the stats it's a pretty small portion of the population affected by them. (And here in Chicago it's common for people who are in technical food deserts to work in other areas, accessible by public transit, so similarly they have access to real grocery stores and green markets, and we have some good green markets in poorer areas. There are of course still real barriers that poor people have that others do not -- and it would be wrong to ignore that -- but it's not as simplistic as some make it.)
Also, I'm not sure why some expensive "trail mix" is presumed to be more healthy than Cheerios or various other cereals, many of which have no sugar added, but that's an aside.I think the judgemental stuff is aimed at those who do have the choice of what they can eat. There are a lot of 'privileged' people who absolutely do have the choice and choose not to.
Sure, but you don't know what's going on with any particular person you see out and about, so why be judgmental? How does that help?The issue I see is that a big part of making positive life choices and sticking to them is developing mental strength, resilience and staying motivated. There is a whole motivation section of this forum dedicated to helping people with that part and the introductions section is full of 'hey I'm back again' posts from people who struggle with this.
This is hard work, it takes a long time, there are no instant results, we fall off the wagon, sometimes it looks and feels like we're just spinning our wheels - but we carry on and do the work required to develop new habits and lifestyles.
Yes, helping people is a good thing. No need to go around judging random people and assume they aren't the same ones who are trying.I firmly believe that the 'check your privilege' mindset runs counter to this and does not help anyone who is unhappy about themselves and wants to change. Maybe re-frame it as something like 'yeah it's unfair and that sucks, life is like that and unfortunately it's not going to change. The only thing you can do is take the cards you've been dealt and make the best of them because no one is going to do that for you - and hey, once you get going it's actually really rewarding and empowering'
Kind of like a personal responsibility bootcamp to build the foundations of long term habit/lifestyle change. The first thing to go is excuses, including other people's 'priviledge' - that stuff's just holding you back.
I think "check your privilege" is overused and ignores that people have all kinds of hardships (I again recommend the book I mentioned upthread), but I think realizing that you have some advantages that not everyone has is a healthy thing. I know I do, as well as some individual stumbling blocks that not everyone has.
On the whole I don't think it's that useful a concept for weight loss, since it brings in a political debate that's going to muddy the waters.
But just focusing on myself, there are times I find it really easy to exercise a good amount and eat a proper amount and lose or maintain weight, and other times I have not. I don't think I was a different person at those times, so I think more was going on to explain the differences. To help people, if that's your goal, I think you need to be able to empathize with the reasons it's hard for them. If you cannot, you likely are not the person who can help them.
For example, I find extreme pickiness or "fussiness" (a word I hate) with food, such as adult people saying "I won't eat vegetables or the like to be annoying and something I cannot empathize with. So I generally stay out of those threads.
All that aside, none of this has much to do with a thread on body positivity, which applies to people non obese and often quite fit, as well as overweight.
Polarisation and generalisation are unhelpful, a thread about body positivity on a health and fitness forum is bound to stoke up a lot of drama. The fact that the word 'priviledge' has come up so much is quite telling.
I'm sure there are plenty of good folks in the body positivity movement who aren't blaming their situation on their lack of priviledge and using that as an excuse to not do anything about it while hating on said priviledged people (as evidenced above in Carl's and Barbie's posts).
Life choices and personal responsibility are all that count in this game. If someone tells me to 'check my priviledge' I shall try and feel some compassion for them and their unfortunate situation of not having the priviledge of accepting that they will get out of life what they put into it. I didn't accept that myself for a long time - I've been there...
So - no more judgy, definitely no triggering, just "I'm sorry you feel that way and I hope soon you reach the point where you take control"
Feels much better 4 -
I was going to bow out of this thread for a handful of reasons but your post reeled me back in.Carl_Gareth wrote: »I tried to embrace body positivity after getting help for my eating disorder.
I have to say, I started to change in a positive manner, until I dipped into the community, they are a militant group who want positivity towards people their shape but despise any women who fit society's standards, and don't like men because we are 'privillaged' with our bodies in society which is a load of BS.
For me body positivity was treating my body in a positive manner by stopping the self hate (which I have all my life) and been healthy.... But noooo mention weightloss and you will get people having a meltdown saying you're against the movement and fat positivity (which I am against)
All in all, the movent shouldn't be called body positivity, it should be called - fat advocate movement, because that's what they advocate, I'm not even sorry for saying that because I support people, I encourage people, but for supporting and encouraging people I'm apparently 'hateful' so I'm completely against the movement
But I strongly encourage people to be positive and nicer towards themselves.
What I bolded is why I have been silently pushing back about this "community" aspect some people have been mentioning here. I think, in general, that using community as a catch all for EVERYONE who is of X identity or subscribes to Y general idea isn't useful in a lot of, or perhaps most, cases. It assumes that everyone is thinking the same thing, is in the same organization (and is in agreement with everything that organization stands for), has a central body of leadership to get direction some, and/or has the same ethos. I identify as queer, but I wouldn't consider myself part of any one queer community, larger or smaller for a lot of the reasons I discussed above.
Even in the case of smaller communities that I would actually be ok with considering a community (ie my rowing club is a "community" of rowers), there's going to be a lot of heterogeneity. On top of the heterogeneity, there will people in communities that one might be in who may think, say, or do things that you might not agree with, that are hurtful to you or others, etc.3 -
I tend not to buy into any "movements" that tell me how I "should" think. If I am unhappy with myself for any reason, it is my responsibility to change or not to change. It is not society's duty to adapt their views so I feel better about me.3
-
I ask myself a question for these types of issues. "How does this affect me?". It doesn't. It's like tattooing and body piercing. I come from a time when the only people who got tattoos were sailors, convicts and people wanting racial type tattoos (such as Maori women getting mokos). I don't like seeing tattoos on people, but it doesn't affect me, so I accept it and move on.
The body positivity movement is good in one way. I have never considered myself attractive but I've never seen myself as ugly. I can't imagine what it's like to consider myself ugly, to not want to look in the mirror, or avoid mirrors and refuse photographs of myself. In that respect I think that it is a good thing.
It's also a bad thing in a sense of telling people that it's alright to be very heavy.
So the answer to OP's question is.. It's complicated.0 -
Here's an interesting historical take on how being overweight was a display of status and 'privilege':
https://www.sermo.com/history-obesity-renaissance-1910/
"The first post in this 3 part series on the history of obesity discussed the view of obesity from the Stone Age to the Renaissance, when fatness or obesity was viewed as beautiful, healthy, and a sign of prosperity. This post discusses a global view of obesity from the renaissance to 1910.
Obesity remained a symbol of beauty worldwide. There were famines during these centuries. The Irish famine is one of the most famous. (A) People died without sufficient food during this and other famines. Prosperity meant having enough money to buy or own food, and to eat well. The wealthy ate in excess, assuring themselves status and “good health.” Throughout the world, those who were leaders or rulers tended to have more fat on their bodies and withstood the famines more easily."
To me it means accepting people as they are, not discriminating or 'fat shaming' people. What people must understand and accept however is that they are 100% responsible for their life choices and how they treat their bodies. Choosing to be overweight is choosing to be unhealthy and in a lot of cases unhappy. That's not the fault of people who have chosen differently and it's not a 'privilege' either.
That said I know it's not as simple as healthy food is expensive and there's the whole issue of comfort eating as a drug.
In the UK we have state run healthcare so if there was a 'body positive' movement here it would be an issue.
Personally, I'd like to know what the person who posted the comment meant.
However, you continue to post as if "body positivity" meant choosing to be obese, which it does not.
The time I most needed body positivity was when I was in high school through my mid 20s, all times at which I was normal weight, btw. And as I mentioned earlier, when I was fat, moving to a place of more self-acceptance and body positivity, and focusing on what I had control over (even though I did not yet fully accept I had control over my body) and what my body could do helped me arrive at a place where I could lose weight and become very fit (and I decided I'd be as fit as possible no matter my weight -- I of course did lose, but focusing on something other than the number on the scale was important for me).
There are a lot of very fit women who focus on body positivity. Here's one example: https://www.self.com/story/this-womans-bikini-photo-is-going-viral-for-a-reason-you-might-not-expect
https://www.girlsgonestrong.com/blog/ggs-spotlight/molly-galbraiths-spotlight-a-womans-worth/
Since we are now back to weird generalizations about people who speak about body positivity being militant pro fat activists or some such nonsense, I will repost my links to someone I think is more representative, not that it's really a movement at all, it's a concept.
And I will note again that when I would have most benefitted from it was during a time I was not overweight at all, but I could see nothing but flaws and had an attitude toward my body that made me less healthy, not more.
Body positivity makes me more able to appreciate other people's bodies (not in a skeevy way), btw, and not at all judgy of people in great shape. I find people in great shape inspirational, even if the particular body type is different from mine or not my aesthetic goal. Contrary to the claims by some, it made me much less envious, not more. It made me more focused on how I could be happy with what I have to work with, and the things over which I have control, even though obviously there are some body types I will never have. And it made me focused on non-aesthetic things, like how much I can lift or how far I can run or other things I can achieve. For me, this is all way more healthy than hating my body (and myself) for not being perfect. Zero to do with justifying being obese, although I also don't feel a need to judge others for being overweight.2
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions