Coronavirus prep

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Replies

  • Gisel2015
    Gisel2015 Posts: 4,131 Member
    edited October 2020
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    We voted by mail a few weeks ago and I've checked online to see that our ballots were accepted, and those of my mother and brother. (The majority of states have this capacity.)

    Today while getting an iron infusion, election day being a week away came up and I helped my nurse make a plan to vote by letting her know how to find her early voting and election day voting locations. (This was a completely apolitical conversation.)

    Heh, we had something due on this coming Monday, and a co-worker suggested we ask for an extension to Wednesday. I freaked and said "no, that's the day after election day" and he immediately conceded that I was correct. (The other side subsequently asked for an extension until the following Monday anyway.) I am taking next Wednesday as a holiday/sick day/whatever.

    My trainer (whom I work with remotely) has been pushing co-workers to vote (lots of them are young ones), and I gave her the information about voting early downtown (just a few blocks from where they are, as well as where my office is), and she's been encouraging people to go during breaks. Everyone I know here is voting, but I've been encouraging people to check their registration and early vote in person (even though mail in is easy here, it's just in person gets counted first in this state). Not that we are a swing state, anyway (and of course you aren't either!).

    But Election day is always on the first Tuesday in November (on 11/03 this year). Did COVID changed it to Wednesday or are you taking that day off to relax or to recuperate from Tuesday's results, what ever they may be.. :p )
  • SModa61
    SModa61 Posts: 2,829 Member
    @Gisel2015 - Yes, she does magnesium "oil" (magnesium dissolved in purified water) often. It's a trick we learned when she had severe fibromyalgia. It has helped some but until she got her blood sugar down, little was helping.

    I can relate to what you went through with the OJ. She made chili last night and was talking about loading it up with saltines. I'm like, we don't need the saltines. It has beans in it already and we don't need a lot of crackers in it. I think she believes me about it but I can't wait till the doctor appointment and possibly to sit down with a Dietician. It won't be too hard for us, she quickly gave up a lot when she had Fibromyalgia to get out of pain but she held on to her sugar, just not realizing how much she was taking in.

    I'm sorry @snowflake954 to hear about Italy again. So many places are like that in the US now, except I can't see us locking down again. We just have to decide what's worth it and protect ourselves. I wish masks were obligatory here. I just heard Russia made them mandatory yesterday as well. People would riot here if you make masks mandatory. Such emotional immaturity here.

    Oh man, I would not eat saltines if you paid me! Different people are different obviously but I was shocked at how much they spiked my bg.

    One thing I wish someone had told me when I first got my type 2 diagnosis - a lot of the time doctors won’t give you a meter if you’re type 2. Get one if you have to use your own money, and use it often until you learn your own tolerances! Funny how those saltines seem so little when they cross your mouth but not so little when you’re looking at 160 bg an hour later. And some of the canned goods which look bad on paper because of the added sugar turn out to be just fine because the added fat makes them hit your bloodstream more slowly. Every diabetic is different! Of course still crossing my fingers your wife doesn’t have it, but...

    Honestly if she does have it, a lot of the symptoms of uncontrolled bg for me were similar to fibromyalgia. My hands and feet used to hurt a lot but it was just the glucose. And getting it under control feels so much better.

    We're gluten free, because I'm Celiac, which is worse, believe it or not. GF products are loaded with rice and corn starch instead of wheat. I'm going to likely lean a bit on your insight. Been reading through the Diabetic support group. Thanks!

    @MikePfirrman another direction you can look at are Keto foods/recipes. When doing Keto, wheat is not replaced with rice and corn. There are all different non-carb replacements you can check out. Somewhere I have a great keto cracker recipe that is all seeds, including chia w/ water as a binder. I've cooked gluten free at times for family, and I personally did keto for 6 weeks in 2018. There could be some useful substitutions for you.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    SModa61 wrote: »
    @Gisel2015 - Yes, she does magnesium "oil" (magnesium dissolved in purified water) often. It's a trick we learned when she had severe fibromyalgia. It has helped some but until she got her blood sugar down, little was helping.

    I can relate to what you went through with the OJ. She made chili last night and was talking about loading it up with saltines. I'm like, we don't need the saltines. It has beans in it already and we don't need a lot of crackers in it. I think she believes me about it but I can't wait till the doctor appointment and possibly to sit down with a Dietician. It won't be too hard for us, she quickly gave up a lot when she had Fibromyalgia to get out of pain but she held on to her sugar, just not realizing how much she was taking in.

    I'm sorry @snowflake954 to hear about Italy again. So many places are like that in the US now, except I can't see us locking down again. We just have to decide what's worth it and protect ourselves. I wish masks were obligatory here. I just heard Russia made them mandatory yesterday as well. People would riot here if you make masks mandatory. Such emotional immaturity here.

    Oh man, I would not eat saltines if you paid me! Different people are different obviously but I was shocked at how much they spiked my bg.

    One thing I wish someone had told me when I first got my type 2 diagnosis - a lot of the time doctors won’t give you a meter if you’re type 2. Get one if you have to use your own money, and use it often until you learn your own tolerances! Funny how those saltines seem so little when they cross your mouth but not so little when you’re looking at 160 bg an hour later. And some of the canned goods which look bad on paper because of the added sugar turn out to be just fine because the added fat makes them hit your bloodstream more slowly. Every diabetic is different! Of course still crossing my fingers your wife doesn’t have it, but...

    Honestly if she does have it, a lot of the symptoms of uncontrolled bg for me were similar to fibromyalgia. My hands and feet used to hurt a lot but it was just the glucose. And getting it under control feels so much better.

    We're gluten free, because I'm Celiac, which is worse, believe it or not. GF products are loaded with rice and corn starch instead of wheat. I'm going to likely lean a bit on your insight. Been reading through the Diabetic support group. Thanks!

    @MikePfirrman another direction you can look at are Keto foods/recipes. When doing Keto, wheat is not replaced with rice and corn. There are all different non-carb replacements you can check out. Somewhere I have a great keto cracker recipe that is all seeds, including chia w/ water as a binder. I've cooked gluten free at times for family, and I personally did keto for 6 weeks in 2018. There could be some useful substitutions for you.

    Yes, keto is a great idea. Or you could do what I've done and go keto carnivore. If you only eat animals, then it should be gluten free. You only have to be careful to avoid heavily processed meats that have additives... but then eating real food instead of factory food is generally considered more ideal anyway.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,160 Member
    @SModa61 Keto can be a balancing act for sure. While I have never eaten much under 50 grams of carbs when doing keto I find I need to 1-2 grams of actual magnesium to avoid morning leg cramps and and constipation. My current focus on my gut microbiome health has my carbs up due to eat more whole foods. I start the day with an apple, whole kiwi, one large plum, a banana, tablespoon of honey and 16 oz of pomegranate juice that I do not do when doing Keto. Otherwise my food intake are keto way of eating foods. Taking Vit D3 increases magnesium intake demands.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,160 Member
    edited October 2020
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    SModa61 wrote: »
    @GaleHawkins Can you tell me why a second and third wave can be worse than the first? Curious what factors lead to this. TIA

    Probably not the scientific reason but would think virus fatigue would come into play. People tired of masks, social distancing etc.

    https://theconversation.com/in-rural-america-resentment-over-covid-19-shutdowns-is-colliding-with-rising-case-numbers-148310

    This supports what you posted.

    Early blanket lock downs leading to fatigue seems to be leading to extra Covid-19 deaths in rural America today perhaps.
  • SModa61
    SModa61 Posts: 2,829 Member
    SModa61 wrote: »
    SModa61 wrote: »
    @Gisel2015 - Yes, she does magnesium "oil" (magnesium dissolved in purified water) often. It's a trick we learned when she had severe fibromyalgia. It has helped some but until she got her blood sugar down, little was helping.

    I can relate to what you went through with the OJ. She made chili last night and was talking about loading it up with saltines. I'm like, we don't need the saltines. It has beans in it already and we don't need a lot of crackers in it. I think she believes me about it but I can't wait till the doctor appointment and possibly to sit down with a Dietician. It won't be too hard for us, she quickly gave up a lot when she had Fibromyalgia to get out of pain but she held on to her sugar, just not realizing how much she was taking in.

    I'm sorry @snowflake954 to hear about Italy again. So many places are like that in the US now, except I can't see us locking down again. We just have to decide what's worth it and protect ourselves. I wish masks were obligatory here. I just heard Russia made them mandatory yesterday as well. People would riot here if you make masks mandatory. Such emotional immaturity here.

    Oh man, I would not eat saltines if you paid me! Different people are different obviously but I was shocked at how much they spiked my bg.

    One thing I wish someone had told me when I first got my type 2 diagnosis - a lot of the time doctors won’t give you a meter if you’re type 2. Get one if you have to use your own money, and use it often until you learn your own tolerances! Funny how those saltines seem so little when they cross your mouth but not so little when you’re looking at 160 bg an hour later. And some of the canned goods which look bad on paper because of the added sugar turn out to be just fine because the added fat makes them hit your bloodstream more slowly. Every diabetic is different! Of course still crossing my fingers your wife doesn’t have it, but...

    Honestly if she does have it, a lot of the symptoms of uncontrolled bg for me were similar to fibromyalgia. My hands and feet used to hurt a lot but it was just the glucose. And getting it under control feels so much better.

    We're gluten free, because I'm Celiac, which is worse, believe it or not. GF products are loaded with rice and corn starch instead of wheat. I'm going to likely lean a bit on your insight. Been reading through the Diabetic support group. Thanks!

    @MikePfirrman another direction you can look at are Keto foods/recipes. When doing Keto, wheat is not replaced with rice and corn. There are all different non-carb replacements you can check out. Somewhere I have a great keto cracker recipe that is all seeds, including chia w/ water as a binder. I've cooked gluten free at times for family, and I personally did keto for 6 weeks in 2018. There could be some useful substitutions for you.

    Yes, keto is a great idea. Or you could do what I've done and go keto carnivore. If you only eat animals, then it should be gluten free. You only have to be careful to avoid heavily processed meats that have additives... but then eating real food instead of factory food is generally considered more ideal anyway.

    The qualification I would give about Keto Carnivore, which was pretty much where I was at when forced to stop, is if one has any constipation type issues it can be a problem. In my last days, I was at 1-2g carbs/day. Had the worst hemorrhoid blow out of my life that literally lasted months (happened in July) and led to a non-negotiable hemorroidectomy in December. There were days I could not walk, and heck with any possible exercise. I also went very acidic resulting in burning urine. Thought I had a urinary tract infection and went to the doctor - nope just very acidic urine. Obviously, it works for many many people and I thought it was going to be for me as well. Apparently, my body or my method was not right for it. Glad you have found success with it @T1DCarnivoreRunner ! I still love many aspects of what I learned doing keto and steal from it from time to time while keeping my carbs at the lower end.

    Thanks all, yeah, I'm looking at lower carb stuff like keto (for recipes mostly, not as a lifestyle). Her numbers came back yesterday. Said it was borderline, so we caught it early. Have a follow up appointment with the doc. We want to talk about all the symptoms she was showing. My guess would be her numbers improved to borderline normal because of all the sugars we've cut out already.

    We were leaning heavily toward more plant based before all of this. I'm very familiar with Keto and Carnivore (I'm an indoor rower and know Shawn Baker before he got known for Carnivore). I'm just not sure that's for us. I'd rather try to stick with lower GI foods knowing what I know about the microbiome.

    I appreciate all the ideas. I have a really difficult time on really low carbs. Tried it years ago and felt absolutely hideous. I would guess because my training is rigorous. Some do great with it, I'm not one of those folks.

    @MikePfirrman I was primarily directing you towards checking some of the bread type keto replacements. Again, the keto crackers are very plant based (sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, flaxseed, chia seed, pumpkin seed, spices and water) and an amazing base for avocado toast. Keto also has a recipe called cloud bread I think which is primarily egg whites. Now you got me thinking, I need to make me some crackers and buy some avocados. :p

    Hubby is heading out the door for his Stop the Spread Massachusetts free COVID test. Sunday night he flew home from getting his mother re-established in florida. Massachusetts requires 14 day quarentine or negative test. We had him quarantine til today to increase test validity.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,899 Member
    edited October 2020
    SModa61 wrote: »
    SModa61 wrote: »
    SModa61 wrote: »
    @Gisel2015 - Yes, she does magnesium "oil" (magnesium dissolved in purified water) often. It's a trick we learned when she had severe fibromyalgia. It has helped some but until she got her blood sugar down, little was helping.

    I can relate to what you went through with the OJ. She made chili last night and was talking about loading it up with saltines. I'm like, we don't need the saltines. It has beans in it already and we don't need a lot of crackers in it. I think she believes me about it but I can't wait till the doctor appointment and possibly to sit down with a Dietician. It won't be too hard for us, she quickly gave up a lot when she had Fibromyalgia to get out of pain but she held on to her sugar, just not realizing how much she was taking in.

    I'm sorry @snowflake954 to hear about Italy again. So many places are like that in the US now, except I can't see us locking down again. We just have to decide what's worth it and protect ourselves. I wish masks were obligatory here. I just heard Russia made them mandatory yesterday as well. People would riot here if you make masks mandatory. Such emotional immaturity here.

    Oh man, I would not eat saltines if you paid me! Different people are different obviously but I was shocked at how much they spiked my bg.

    One thing I wish someone had told me when I first got my type 2 diagnosis - a lot of the time doctors won’t give you a meter if you’re type 2. Get one if you have to use your own money, and use it often until you learn your own tolerances! Funny how those saltines seem so little when they cross your mouth but not so little when you’re looking at 160 bg an hour later. And some of the canned goods which look bad on paper because of the added sugar turn out to be just fine because the added fat makes them hit your bloodstream more slowly. Every diabetic is different! Of course still crossing my fingers your wife doesn’t have it, but...

    Honestly if she does have it, a lot of the symptoms of uncontrolled bg for me were similar to fibromyalgia. My hands and feet used to hurt a lot but it was just the glucose. And getting it under control feels so much better.

    We're gluten free, because I'm Celiac, which is worse, believe it or not. GF products are loaded with rice and corn starch instead of wheat. I'm going to likely lean a bit on your insight. Been reading through the Diabetic support group. Thanks!

    @MikePfirrman another direction you can look at are Keto foods/recipes. When doing Keto, wheat is not replaced with rice and corn. There are all different non-carb replacements you can check out. Somewhere I have a great keto cracker recipe that is all seeds, including chia w/ water as a binder. I've cooked gluten free at times for family, and I personally did keto for 6 weeks in 2018. There could be some useful substitutions for you.

    Yes, keto is a great idea. Or you could do what I've done and go keto carnivore. If you only eat animals, then it should be gluten free. You only have to be careful to avoid heavily processed meats that have additives... but then eating real food instead of factory food is generally considered more ideal anyway.

    The qualification I would give about Keto Carnivore, which was pretty much where I was at when forced to stop, is if one has any constipation type issues it can be a problem. In my last days, I was at 1-2g carbs/day. Had the worst hemorrhoid blow out of my life that literally lasted months (happened in July) and led to a non-negotiable hemorroidectomy in December. There were days I could not walk, and heck with any possible exercise. I also went very acidic resulting in burning urine. Thought I had a urinary tract infection and went to the doctor - nope just very acidic urine. Obviously, it works for many many people and I thought it was going to be for me as well. Apparently, my body or my method was not right for it. Glad you have found success with it @T1DCarnivoreRunner ! I still love many aspects of what I learned doing keto and steal from it from time to time while keeping my carbs at the lower end.

    Thanks all, yeah, I'm looking at lower carb stuff like keto (for recipes mostly, not as a lifestyle). Her numbers came back yesterday. Said it was borderline, so we caught it early. Have a follow up appointment with the doc. We want to talk about all the symptoms she was showing. My guess would be her numbers improved to borderline normal because of all the sugars we've cut out already.

    We were leaning heavily toward more plant based before all of this. I'm very familiar with Keto and Carnivore (I'm an indoor rower and know Shawn Baker before he got known for Carnivore). I'm just not sure that's for us. I'd rather try to stick with lower GI foods knowing what I know about the microbiome.

    I appreciate all the ideas. I have a really difficult time on really low carbs. Tried it years ago and felt absolutely hideous. I would guess because my training is rigorous. Some do great with it, I'm not one of those folks.

    @MikePfirrman I was primarily directing you towards checking some of the bread type keto replacements. Again, the keto crackers are very plant based (sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, flaxseed, chia seed, pumpkin seed, spices and water) and an amazing base for avocado toast. Keto also has a recipe called cloud bread I think which is primarily egg whites. Now you got me thinking, I need to make me some crackers and buy some avocados. :p

    Hubby is heading out the door for his Stop the Spread Massachusetts free COVID test. Sunday night he flew home from getting his mother re-established in florida. Massachusetts requires 14 day quarentine or negative test. We had him quarantine til today to increase test validity.

    I'm not keto, but I mostly don't eat things like crackers or bread (not worth the cals, IMO, and keto crackers seem like they would be higher cal than regular). Mainly, I tend to have one starchy food per meal -- i.e., if bread, no potato or chips or whatnot. So with a bean-based dish I'd not have crackers or bread. This is mostly just how I grew up eating. If keeping up the cals is a concern maybe switching to keto options would be helpful, but mostly one can eat higher fiber starches with protein and fat (beans are a great example) rather than needing to do low carb or keto for IR issues, I think.

    There are exceptions, of course -- my sister and I had burgers and baked beans and corn on the 4th of July, and last Christmas I made a cassoulet which we had with garlic bread, among other sides. But that's holiday stuff.
  • SModa61
    SModa61 Posts: 2,829 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    SModa61 wrote: »
    SModa61 wrote: »
    SModa61 wrote: »
    @Gisel2015 - Yes, she does magnesium "oil" (magnesium dissolved in purified water) often. It's a trick we learned when she had severe fibromyalgia. It has helped some but until she got her blood sugar down, little was helping.

    I can relate to what you went through with the OJ. She made chili last night and was talking about loading it up with saltines. I'm like, we don't need the saltines. It has beans in it already and we don't need a lot of crackers in it. I think she believes me about it but I can't wait till the doctor appointment and possibly to sit down with a Dietician. It won't be too hard for us, she quickly gave up a lot when she had Fibromyalgia to get out of pain but she held on to her sugar, just not realizing how much she was taking in.

    I'm sorry @snowflake954 to hear about Italy again. So many places are like that in the US now, except I can't see us locking down again. We just have to decide what's worth it and protect ourselves. I wish masks were obligatory here. I just heard Russia made them mandatory yesterday as well. People would riot here if you make masks mandatory. Such emotional immaturity here.

    Oh man, I would not eat saltines if you paid me! Different people are different obviously but I was shocked at how much they spiked my bg.

    One thing I wish someone had told me when I first got my type 2 diagnosis - a lot of the time doctors won’t give you a meter if you’re type 2. Get one if you have to use your own money, and use it often until you learn your own tolerances! Funny how those saltines seem so little when they cross your mouth but not so little when you’re looking at 160 bg an hour later. And some of the canned goods which look bad on paper because of the added sugar turn out to be just fine because the added fat makes them hit your bloodstream more slowly. Every diabetic is different! Of course still crossing my fingers your wife doesn’t have it, but...

    Honestly if she does have it, a lot of the symptoms of uncontrolled bg for me were similar to fibromyalgia. My hands and feet used to hurt a lot but it was just the glucose. And getting it under control feels so much better.

    We're gluten free, because I'm Celiac, which is worse, believe it or not. GF products are loaded with rice and corn starch instead of wheat. I'm going to likely lean a bit on your insight. Been reading through the Diabetic support group. Thanks!

    @MikePfirrman another direction you can look at are Keto foods/recipes. When doing Keto, wheat is not replaced with rice and corn. There are all different non-carb replacements you can check out. Somewhere I have a great keto cracker recipe that is all seeds, including chia w/ water as a binder. I've cooked gluten free at times for family, and I personally did keto for 6 weeks in 2018. There could be some useful substitutions for you.

    Yes, keto is a great idea. Or you could do what I've done and go keto carnivore. If you only eat animals, then it should be gluten free. You only have to be careful to avoid heavily processed meats that have additives... but then eating real food instead of factory food is generally considered more ideal anyway.

    The qualification I would give about Keto Carnivore, which was pretty much where I was at when forced to stop, is if one has any constipation type issues it can be a problem. In my last days, I was at 1-2g carbs/day. Had the worst hemorrhoid blow out of my life that literally lasted months (happened in July) and led to a non-negotiable hemorroidectomy in December. There were days I could not walk, and heck with any possible exercise. I also went very acidic resulting in burning urine. Thought I had a urinary tract infection and went to the doctor - nope just very acidic urine. Obviously, it works for many many people and I thought it was going to be for me as well. Apparently, my body or my method was not right for it. Glad you have found success with it @T1DCarnivoreRunner ! I still love many aspects of what I learned doing keto and steal from it from time to time while keeping my carbs at the lower end.

    Thanks all, yeah, I'm looking at lower carb stuff like keto (for recipes mostly, not as a lifestyle). Her numbers came back yesterday. Said it was borderline, so we caught it early. Have a follow up appointment with the doc. We want to talk about all the symptoms she was showing. My guess would be her numbers improved to borderline normal because of all the sugars we've cut out already.

    We were leaning heavily toward more plant based before all of this. I'm very familiar with Keto and Carnivore (I'm an indoor rower and know Shawn Baker before he got known for Carnivore). I'm just not sure that's for us. I'd rather try to stick with lower GI foods knowing what I know about the microbiome.

    I appreciate all the ideas. I have a really difficult time on really low carbs. Tried it years ago and felt absolutely hideous. I would guess because my training is rigorous. Some do great with it, I'm not one of those folks.

    @MikePfirrman I was primarily directing you towards checking some of the bread type keto replacements. Again, the keto crackers are very plant based (sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, flaxseed, chia seed, pumpkin seed, spices and water) and an amazing base for avocado toast. Keto also has a recipe called cloud bread I think which is primarily egg whites. Now you got me thinking, I need to make me some crackers and buy some avocados. :p

    Hubby is heading out the door for his Stop the Spread Massachusetts free COVID test. Sunday night he flew home from getting his mother re-established in florida. Massachusetts requires 14 day quarentine or negative test. We had him quarantine til today to increase test validity.

    I'm not keto, but I mostly don't eat things like crackers or bread (not worth the cals, IMO, and keto crackers seem like they would be higher cal than regular). Mainly, I tend to have one starchy food per meal -- i.e., if bread, no potato or chips or whatnot. So with a bean-based dish I'd not have crackers or bread. This is mostly just how I grew up eating. If keeping up the cals is a concern maybe switching to keto options would be helpful, but mostly one can eat higher fiber starches with protein and fat (beans are a great example) rather than needing to do low carb or keto for IR issues, I think.

    There are exceptions, of course -- my sister and I had burgers and baked beans and corn on the 4th of July, and last Christmas I made a cassoulet which we had with garlic bread, among other sides. But that's holiday stuff.

    For the most part I am currently eating like you. But sometimes, you just need other options. :)
  • TonyB0588
    TonyB0588 Posts: 9,520 Member
    In Italy we heard a report on the news yesterday that the Oxford vaccine (Italy is participating, as well as other countries) is working very well. In elderly individuals it is boosting their immunity to the disease higher than expected. The vaccine will go into production soon. First to get it will be health workers, police, and the very fragile. A massive vaccination campaign is scheduled for the spring.
    In Italy we heard a report on the news yesterday that the Oxford vaccine (Italy is participating, as well as other countries) is working very well. In elderly individuals it is boosting their immunity to the disease higher than expected. The vaccine will go into production soon. First to get it will be health workers, police, and the very fragile. A massive vaccination campaign is scheduled for the spring.

    This is good news indeed. Unfortunately there's a segment of the population who're against any type of vaccination campaign for any disease. That will effectively leave a few gaps, but hopefully the numbers will come down to something more manageable.
  • SModa61
    SModa61 Posts: 2,829 Member
    I saw a headline that the BAA has said the Boston Marathon 2021 will not happen in April. It will be delayed until fall 2021 at best. This makes sense because Covid is still a real issue and will likely still be in April.

    I'm in Massachusetts, so it obviously made this evening's news. One of the comments that can give us some hope is that with the extent of planning/organizing that must be done in advance, risk assessment is a piece of the puzzle leading to postponement. Now, those are my words for what I heard/understood. For a full disclosure, I have decided that I am an optimistic sceptic. ( ie I am always questioning, but tend to embrace positive news over negative - if that makes sense)