Thoughts on the “glamourizing/normalizing” obesity vs body positivity conversations

janejellyroll · January 2021

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

Wiseandcurious wrote: »

siberiantarragon wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

For myself, I don't spend much time considering what could have been if other people had done or would do some other thing, especially if it's in the past.

It's not in the past though. The COVID situation is ongoing and getting worse, and is projected to last several more months at least. Even after COVID is done with, pandemics happen fairly frequently (the last one was only 10 years ago --H1N1) and the population is less and less able to handle them as their overall health declines due to obesity. Diseases that might not be pandemics in a healthier population, might be pandemics in a less healthy one. There's also the larger policy question of the responsibility of the individual to society -- is it our civic duty to maintain our personal health? So these questions won't just go away.

I'm old (65) and have the start of COPD, so I'm at higher risk of dying, but I can't wrap my head around considering whether I should take more blame for the pandemic and its consequences because of those things (if I hadn't lived with smokers most of my life, despite not being one, I probably wouldn't have the COPD . . . .).

I wouldn't consider those factors to be blame-worthy. I also don't judge people who were obese and decided to get to a healthy weight because of COVID, or people who choose to remain obese but also disagree that everyone else should sacrifice in order to protect them.

I do wonder, though, if age has to do with our different responses to the lockdowns. I'm 29 and spent my first 22 years living in a violent, abusive household, so I feel like I barely got to live and missed out on a lot in my life, and now even more is being taken away. It sucks to not even be 30 and feel like "well, this is the limit of what I'm going to experience in life." I lost many years of my life because my family couldn't get their act together, and now it just feels like this is a variant of the same thing.

Truly, I'm sympathetic, but don't feel that I have any way to help. I think this is probably not the thread for it, either, especially if we diverge from the subject of obesity and its "glamorization".

The discussion did diverge from the original point.

From my direct and indirect observation and anecdata, many of the people who gained in the pandemic are not obese, just on the verge of normal weight. I.e. obese and normal BMI gained alike. The fact that most people gained is due to moving less when wfh, since no commute (plus probably stress eating, food inequality issues etc. but reduced movement is a huge factor). And before you say that they should have used the commute time to do extra sport - statistics show most people use that time now to do extra work! The fear of losing their livelihood is real, as well as all other stressors, mental health issues etc.

Sorry people gained weight during the pandemic because they chose to eat more calories than they burned (just like weight gain over holidays, a vacation, etc).

Weight gain is not the pandemic's fault, need to look in one's own mirror.

Let the disagrees and excuses begin.

Yes, people gained weight because they consumed more than they burned.

But I think for the average person this isn't exactly a deliberate choice. It's not like we have calorie meters on our arms that tell us when we've had what we need for the day.

I know there are tools available, but most people weren't using them pre-pandemic.

I know I've gotten a lot of flak for saying that many people don't have a great concept of how weight management works, but for the average person, they're not going to look at a plate and have a great understanding of how it fits with their calorie needs for the day -- especially if their calorie needs have suddenly gone down due to changes in their lifestyle.

So while it's true that people gained weight because they consumed more than they need, think about how many people here -- people who are already motivated to lose weight and are starting to use these tools -- struggle with getting the basics of calorie counting and then consider someone trying to balance that without any of the tools.

I do think a lot of people were caught off-guard by how they were suddenly using fewer calories. Combined with the context of not really understanding how much they were eating before and in newly stressful situations, I'm not surprised at the outcome, especially since so many people mistakenly believe they NEED to exercise to lose weight and we tossed gym closures on top of all that.

I think we can find a balance between personal responsibility AND acknowledging that a lot of people had a bunch of weird stuff tossed in their lap this year.

We don't have calorie meters on our arms but most of us wear clothes.

When articles of clothing start getting noticeably tighter it's a pretty good indicator one has gained some weight and needs to back off on the eating and/or increase activity to stop the gain and lose what was gained.

About 15% of the US population has gym memberships. I would venture to say those with the memberships and actually were using them before covid found alternative ways to move. The people with dedication to an active lifestyle didn't just quit because their gym closed.

Your clothes getting tighter doesn't really help you understand HOW to proceed. "Eat fewer calories" is pretty easy to say, but fewer than what? And how do I know when I'm hitting fewer?

Obviously people can and do figure it out. But it's not exactly intuitive especially when one is dealing with other upheavals. We've got economic and social disruption, we've just finished (???) an extremely stressful election, people are lacking a lot of their normal social supports and having to form new ways to connect.

Theoldguy1 · January 2021

Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »

northviewvintage wrote: »

I think normalizing =good...glamourizing=bad ...Same for homosexuality...I think it's good to see gay people on tv, just playing regular roles not full of innuendo about what they do in the bedroom. Most people do not want to hear about it! Casting overweight people in more diverse roles wouldn't hurt. Last I read, 42% of Americans are obese, so where I'm at it's normal. Glamourizing it, in my opinion, causes a lot of confusion. Obesity is definately not healthy, but being a bit overweight might be if you have a mad passion for baking and eating bread, and know that eating those foods are worth it for you, personally, to be some pounds overweight. I am all about tolerance as long as you're not hurting others with your behavior. Here are some chunky people that I think are beautiful:

But the thing is obesity SHOULDN'T be normal. Why should we be normalizing something like obesity? That is saying it's normal, so why should anyone change if it's normal and accepted and there is nothing wrong with it.

Homosexuality is completely different. That isn’t a choice and isn’t something you can change like being obese is.

Agree.

There is a lot of opiod addiction out there, it's a big health issue, just like obesity. We're not saying that should be normalized.

Theoldguy1 · January 2021

janejellyroll wrote: »

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

Wiseandcurious wrote: »

siberiantarragon wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

For myself, I don't spend much time considering what could have been if other people had done or would do some other thing, especially if it's in the past.

It's not in the past though. The COVID situation is ongoing and getting worse, and is projected to last several more months at least. Even after COVID is done with, pandemics happen fairly frequently (the last one was only 10 years ago --H1N1) and the population is less and less able to handle them as their overall health declines due to obesity. Diseases that might not be pandemics in a healthier population, might be pandemics in a less healthy one. There's also the larger policy question of the responsibility of the individual to society -- is it our civic duty to maintain our personal health? So these questions won't just go away.

I'm old (65) and have the start of COPD, so I'm at higher risk of dying, but I can't wrap my head around considering whether I should take more blame for the pandemic and its consequences because of those things (if I hadn't lived with smokers most of my life, despite not being one, I probably wouldn't have the COPD . . . .).

I wouldn't consider those factors to be blame-worthy. I also don't judge people who were obese and decided to get to a healthy weight because of COVID, or people who choose to remain obese but also disagree that everyone else should sacrifice in order to protect them.

I do wonder, though, if age has to do with our different responses to the lockdowns. I'm 29 and spent my first 22 years living in a violent, abusive household, so I feel like I barely got to live and missed out on a lot in my life, and now even more is being taken away. It sucks to not even be 30 and feel like "well, this is the limit of what I'm going to experience in life." I lost many years of my life because my family couldn't get their act together, and now it just feels like this is a variant of the same thing.

Truly, I'm sympathetic, but don't feel that I have any way to help. I think this is probably not the thread for it, either, especially if we diverge from the subject of obesity and its "glamorization".

The discussion did diverge from the original point.

From my direct and indirect observation and anecdata, many of the people who gained in the pandemic are not obese, just on the verge of normal weight. I.e. obese and normal BMI gained alike. The fact that most people gained is due to moving less when wfh, since no commute (plus probably stress eating, food inequality issues etc. but reduced movement is a huge factor). And before you say that they should have used the commute time to do extra sport - statistics show most people use that time now to do extra work! The fear of losing their livelihood is real, as well as all other stressors, mental health issues etc.

Sorry people gained weight during the pandemic because they chose to eat more calories than they burned (just like weight gain over holidays, a vacation, etc).

Weight gain is not the pandemic's fault, need to look in one's own mirror.

Let the disagrees and excuses begin.

Yes, people gained weight because they consumed more than they burned.

But I think for the average person this isn't exactly a deliberate choice. It's not like we have calorie meters on our arms that tell us when we've had what we need for the day.

I know there are tools available, but most people weren't using them pre-pandemic.

I know I've gotten a lot of flak for saying that many people don't have a great concept of how weight management works, but for the average person, they're not going to look at a plate and have a great understanding of how it fits with their calorie needs for the day -- especially if their calorie needs have suddenly gone down due to changes in their lifestyle.

So while it's true that people gained weight because they consumed more than they need, think about how many people here -- people who are already motivated to lose weight and are starting to use these tools -- struggle with getting the basics of calorie counting and then consider someone trying to balance that without any of the tools.

I do think a lot of people were caught off-guard by how they were suddenly using fewer calories. Combined with the context of not really understanding how much they were eating before and in newly stressful situations, I'm not surprised at the outcome, especially since so many people mistakenly believe they NEED to exercise to lose weight and we tossed gym closures on top of all that.

I think we can find a balance between personal responsibility AND acknowledging that a lot of people had a bunch of weird stuff tossed in their lap this year.

We don't have calorie meters on our arms but most of us wear clothes.

When articles of clothing start getting noticeably tighter it's a pretty good indicator one has gained some weight and needs to back off on the eating and/or increase activity to stop the gain and lose what was gained.

About 15% of the US population has gym memberships. I would venture to say those with the memberships and actually were using them before covid found alternative ways to move. The people with dedication to an active lifestyle didn't just quit because their gym closed.

Your clothes getting tighter doesn't really help you understand HOW to proceed. "Eat fewer calories" is pretty easy to say, but fewer than what? And how do I know when I'm hitting fewer?

When your clothes start getting looser again. Not rocket science.

AnnPT77 · January 2021

northviewvintage wrote: »

Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »

northviewvintage wrote: »

I think normalizing =good...glamourizing=bad ...Same for homosexuality...I think it's good to see gay people on tv, just playing regular roles not full of innuendo about what they do in the bedroom. Most people do not want to hear about it! Casting overweight people in more diverse roles wouldn't hurt. Last I read, 42% of Americans are obese, so where I'm at it's normal. Glamourizing it, in my opinion, causes a lot of confusion. Obesity is definately not healthy, but being a bit overweight might be if you have a mad passion for baking and eating bread, and know that eating those foods are worth it for you, personally, to be some pounds overweight. I am all about tolerance as long as you're not hurting others with your behavior. Here are some chunky people that I think are beautiful:

But the thing is obesity SHOULDN'T be normal. Why should we be normalizing something like obesity? That is saying it's normal, so why should anyone change if it's normal and accepted and there is nothing wrong with it.

Homosexuality is completely different. That isn’t a choice and isn’t something you can change like being obese is.

The only reason I mentioned homosexuals is because those are two groups of people, amongst others, that are seldom represented right to the public. I've known quite a few gay people, and they're not always making people uncomfortable with sexual innuendos and I've known a few obese people who just want to eat how they want to eat not caring if it takes 20 years off their life. They're not always chefs. They're not always extremely funny. Obesity is a choice, but not everyone chooses to be healthy. Are they hurting you with that choice? With normal being defined as "the usual, average, or typical state or condition" and 42% of Americans being obese, I still say it's normal.I do think, I hope, that we can alter our society in ways that promote healthy lifestyles, so that it might not be so normal in the future.

Yes, "normal" means that. The following are not synonyms for normal: Good, positive, productive, beneficial, etc.

Unfortunately, in the US, being overweight is "normal", and being obese is getting there.

Yes, we should be trying to help more people recognize the value of being at a healthy weight, and understand how to get there. (There's a whole industry - the "diet industry", ironically - trying to confuse matters, for profit . . . on top of the (less prominent) so-called "fat acceptance movement".)

Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

Wiseandcurious wrote: »

siberiantarragon wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

For myself, I don't spend much time considering what could have been if other people had done or would do some other thing, especially if it's in the past.

It's not in the past though. The COVID situation is ongoing and getting worse, and is projected to last several more months at least. Even after COVID is done with, pandemics happen fairly frequently (the last one was only 10 years ago --H1N1) and the population is less and less able to handle them as their overall health declines due to obesity. Diseases that might not be pandemics in a healthier population, might be pandemics in a less healthy one. There's also the larger policy question of the responsibility of the individual to society -- is it our civic duty to maintain our personal health? So these questions won't just go away.

I'm old (65) and have the start of COPD, so I'm at higher risk of dying, but I can't wrap my head around considering whether I should take more blame for the pandemic and its consequences because of those things (if I hadn't lived with smokers most of my life, despite not being one, I probably wouldn't have the COPD . . . .).

I wouldn't consider those factors to be blame-worthy. I also don't judge people who were obese and decided to get to a healthy weight because of COVID, or people who choose to remain obese but also disagree that everyone else should sacrifice in order to protect them.

I do wonder, though, if age has to do with our different responses to the lockdowns. I'm 29 and spent my first 22 years living in a violent, abusive household, so I feel like I barely got to live and missed out on a lot in my life, and now even more is being taken away. It sucks to not even be 30 and feel like "well, this is the limit of what I'm going to experience in life." I lost many years of my life because my family couldn't get their act together, and now it just feels like this is a variant of the same thing.

Truly, I'm sympathetic, but don't feel that I have any way to help. I think this is probably not the thread for it, either, especially if we diverge from the subject of obesity and its "glamorization".

The discussion did diverge from the original point.

From my direct and indirect observation and anecdata, many of the people who gained in the pandemic are not obese, just on the verge of normal weight. I.e. obese and normal BMI gained alike. The fact that most people gained is due to moving less when wfh, since no commute (plus probably stress eating, food inequality issues etc. but reduced movement is a huge factor). And before you say that they should have used the commute time to do extra sport - statistics show most people use that time now to do extra work! The fear of losing their livelihood is real, as well as all other stressors, mental health issues etc.

Sorry people gained weight during the pandemic because they chose to eat more calories than they burned (just like weight gain over holidays, a vacation, etc).

Weight gain is not the pandemic's fault, need to look in one's own mirror.

Let the disagrees and excuses begin.

I also don't understand why there is this huge "pandemic weight gain" everyone is talking about. I've had more time than usual during the pandemic (especially quarantine) to workout and be active since I had more time instead of wasting hours commuting. Now my after work meetings are zoom so I can use that time I'd usually spend commuting exercising. (Or even during)

Some of us react to stress differently than others. Some stress eat, some stress-drink or -drug, reach inattention to their overeating indirectly through that.

Some don't understand that a more limited daily life (at home vs. active job, for example) potentially has a *major* impact on calorie needs. (Think about beginner posts we see around here from people who think only BMR and exercise are calorie burners, and ignore the impact of their daily life . . . let alone the ones (rare) who think literally only intentional exercise burns calories.)

Some of us have different practical situations (types of food available, cooking knowledge, activity levels, etc.). That can make things more difficult.

Like you, I'm lucky. The restrictions made it easier for me to manage my calorie intake, so I've continued slowly losing weight, as per intention. Unlike you, I haven't worked out more (mostly) because I rely on fun as a major motivator, and my most fun activity has been off the table. Still, I've done some, and I know how to manage my weight even if I do zero exercise.

You and me, we're *lucky*. More clever, virtuous, well-adjusted? Hmmmm, not so sure. Lots involved in those.

siberiantarragon · January 2021

Wiseandcurious wrote: »

You are clearly struggling with this a lot more than many other people, and I am very sorry about that.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say the many people who became homeless, lost all their money, killed themselves, lost out on a year of education, died from non-COVID issues that they couldn't get healthcare for, etc. are having a worse time with it than me. My experience is pretty middle-of-the-road.

Faulting obese people for that will not help you, and I hope you can find help either in other discussions and conversations, from your support network, therapy etc.

You seem to be framing this as some sort of uninformed, emotionally-reactive personal opinion I have, rather than a statement of fact backed up by evidence that COVID affects obese people more, and therefore obese people are straining healthcare resources. In fact the entire purpose of your post seems to be to invalidate my opinion by framing me as "triggered" and "crazy" under the guise of pretending to care. I see you.

The reason governments don't put their strategy for beating the pandemic on obesity is simple - getting people to lose weight would take long to move the covid needle

And yet, it's been nine months. If people started in March, they could have lost quite a bit of weight by now. "The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second-best time is today."

I live in Canada - we have similar obesity rates to the states I expect, and have been doing incomparably better due to early and more complete lockdowns and solidarity and taking measures seriously.

So (this is a bit off-topic but) how do you explain the UK and France then? They have similar death rates per million as the US (source: ourworldindata.org COVID-19 statistics), despite having much more restrictive lockdowns.

if you find that the topic of covid and obesity is really triggering for you

Please don't reduce my thought-out opinion on this matter to "triggering." That is SO patronizing.

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

Sorry people gained weight during the pandemic because they chose to eat more calories than they burned (just like weight gain over holidays, a vacation, etc).

Weight gain is not the pandemic's fault, need to look in one's own mirror.

Let the disagrees and excuses begin.

Exactly! You don't need to exercise to maintain or even lose weight. Eating less doesn't cost any extra time or money (in fact, it costs less money).

janejellyroll wrote: »

Socialization IS necessary for human health. I support everyone taking steps to get socialization in safe forms. It's just that those forms may look a bit different or involve smaller groups with less mixing or (insert safer behavior here). There's a difference between "I need to socialize" and "the world should operate exactly as it did pre-COVID precautions" that I think is being missed here.

As I said in a previous post, we weren't allowed to meet anyone outside our immediate household for months. I didn't have an in-person conversation with anyone besides my husband for over five months. Even now, it could all be taken away at any time, and I'm constantly worried that it will be. In many places around the world, people still can't see anyone outside their immediate household. There are also some places where people aren't allowed to leave their county, and all my friends now live in a different county because we had to move after our car got stolen. If I knew that we were going to remain at the current level of restrictions or less from now on, it'd be fine. But so many times places have said "we're not going to have another lockdown" or "we're going to lift the restrictions on this date" etc. and then changed their mind, and oftentimes they do this very quickly and with little warning, so you really can't tell what's going to happen. But with cases going up, the chance of having another full lockdown increases.

Speakeasy76 · January 2021

People also need to realize that the social distancing, lockdown, masking measures are not just to reduce the number of deaths. It's to reduce the strain on the healthcare system. Our hospital system wasn't (and sill isn't) prepared to deal with a pandemic on this level.

I'd also like to point out that this disease isn't just riskier to obese people, but other onderlhing conditions not related to obesity as well. Research is stating that low vitamin d levels are also a risk. Should we condone people who don't get outside enough, have darker skin tones or live in places with cold weather? After all, shouldn't we all know what to do to get more vitamin D?

Theoldguy1 · January 2021

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

People also need to realize that the social distancing, lockdown, masking measures are not just to reduce the number of deaths. It's to reduce the strain on the healthcare system. Our hospital system wasn't (and sill isn't) prepared to deal with a pandemic on this level.

I'd also like to point out that this disease isn't just riskier to obese people, but other onderlhing conditions not related to obesity as well. Research is stating that low vitamin d levels are also a risk. Should we condone people who don't get outside enough, have darker skin tones or live in places with cold weather? After all, shouldn't we all know what to do to get more vitamin D?

IMO, part of the messaging around Covid should include guidance on heath steps individual can take to mitigate the impact of the virus it they catch it.

siberiantarragon · January 2021

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

People also need to realize that the social distancing, lockdown, masking measures are not just to reduce the number of deaths. It's to reduce the strain on the healthcare system. Our hospital system wasn't (and sill isn't) prepared to deal with a pandemic on this level.

Yes and the argument for reducing obesity levels is that it's another way to reduce the strain on the healthcare system and could reduce the need for social distancing and lockdowns, as well as reaping additional long-term health benefits. Maybe the healthcare system wouldn't be strained now, or would be less strained now, if people had addressed their lifestyle-related preventable illnesses earlier in the year.

I'd also like to point out that this disease isn't just riskier to obese people, but other onderlhing conditions not related to obesity as well. Research is stating that low vitamin d levels are also a risk. Should we condone people who don't get outside enough, have darker skin tones or live in places with cold weather? After all, shouldn't we all know what to do to get more vitamin D?

No, that's a false comparison. First of all, low vitamin D isn't listed on the official list of COVID-19 risk factors (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html) whereas obesity and obesity-related diseases are. I'm not saying low vitamin D doesn't play a role, but the evidence must not be as clear-cut as it is for obesity, and if you're just going by official public health sources (which we've been told is what we should listen to), you're not going to know about it.

Also, it's easy to tell if you're overweight or obese. You don't even necessarily have to get on a scale to figure it out. Whereas you can only tell if you have low vitamin D from a blood test, so a lot of people don't know they have it. And obviously when all non-COVID healthcare is shut down for months, nobody can go to the doctor for a routine checkup.

Also, doctors haven't taken low vitamin D seriously in the past. A couple of years ago, my doctor told me that doctors were advised to not even check vitamin D levels on a blood test anymore, because low vitamin D levels are so commonplace and aren't considered to be a serious health problem anymore. Doctors also tell people that the risk of low vitamin D is less bad than the risk of skin cancer from not wearing sunscreen, but they also don't tell people to supplement with vitamin D unless their blood test comes back with low vitamin D.

Now, unfortunately, as we know from this discussion, some doctors have the same approach to obesity, but it's still more generally accepted that obesity shortens lifespan and leads to health consequences. Whereas the average person doesn't really know what the consequences of low vitamin D are. Certainly, it's not common knowledge (and especially wasn't before this year) that low vitamin D can increase the risk of dying from respiratory illness. Whereas it is common knowledge that obesity affects the cardiovascular and pulmonary systems.

Lastly, are you trying to insinuate that certain people in this discussion are racist or something ("have darker skin tones")? Because that is really unfair.

Speakeasy76 · January 2021

siberiantarragon wrote: »

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

People also need to realize that the social distancing, lockdown, masking measures are not just to reduce the number of deaths. It's to reduce the strain on the healthcare system. Our hospital system wasn't (and sill isn't) prepared to deal with a pandemic on this level.

Yes and the argument for reducing obesity levels is that it's another way to reduce the strain on the healthcare system and could reduce the need for social distancing and lockdowns, as well as reaping additional long-term health benefits. Maybe the healthcare system wouldn't be strained now, or would be less strained now, if people had addressed their lifestyle-related preventable illnesses earlier in the year.

I'd also like to point out that this disease isn't just riskier to obese people, but other onderlhing conditions not related to obesity as well. Research is stating that low vitamin d levels are also a risk. Should we condone people who don't get outside enough, have darker skin tones or live in places with cold weather? After all, shouldn't we all know what to do to get more vitamin D?

No, that's a false comparison. First of all, low vitamin D isn't listed on the official list of COVID-19 risk factors (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html) whereas obesity and obesity-related diseases are. I'm not saying low vitamin D doesn't play a role, but the evidence must not be as clear-cut as it is for obesity, and if you're just going by official public health sources (which we've been told is what we should listen to), you're not going to know about it.

Also, it's easy to tell if you're overweight or obese. You don't even necessarily have to get on a scale to figure it out. Whereas you can only tell if you have low vitamin D from a blood test, so a lot of people don't know they have it. And obviously when all non-COVID healthcare is shut down for months, nobody can go to the doctor for a routine checkup.

Also, doctors haven't taken low vitamin D seriously in the past. A couple of years ago, my doctor told me that doctors were advised to not even check vitamin D levels on a blood test anymore, because low vitamin D levels are so commonplace and aren't considered to be a serious health problem anymore. Doctors also tell people that the risk of low vitamin D is less bad than the risk of skin cancer from not wearing sunscreen, but they also don't tell people to supplement with vitamin D unless their blood test comes back with low vitamin D.

Now, unfortunately, as we know from this discussion, some doctors have the same approach to obesity, but it's still more generally accepted that obesity shortens lifespan and leads to health consequences. Whereas the average person doesn't really know what the consequences of low vitamin D are. Certainly, it's not common knowledge (and especially wasn't before this year) that low vitamin D can increase the risk of dying from respiratory illness. Whereas it is common knowledge that obesity affects the cardiovascular and pulmonary systems.

Lastly, are you trying to insinuate that certain people in this discussion are racist or something ("have darker skin tones")? Because that is really unfair.

Whoa, what? "Trying to insinuate that certain people in this discussion are racist or something?" What I meant is that it is pretty well-documented that pigment in darker skin can block sun absorption, thereby reducing the body's ability to convert it to vitamin D.

I was not realistically comparing having low vitamin D to obesity as risk factors for COVID. In actuality, low vitamin D would be much easier to treat than obesity, because I think being obese and the solutions to it are multi-faceted for many people (not just that they are "uninformed," "lazy, or "lack willpower"_ and just need to "eat less and move more"-not my thoughts). And you are absolutely correct in that people know they are obese, and most likely already know that it's a risk factor for COVID complications. I know the people I know that are obese do.

For some people, knowing this has been enough for them to make changes so they are able to lose weight. For many others, it hasn't. I don't fault them for not doing so or question why they can't or haven't done so yet. I guess I've become (or tried to become) more of the mindset that I can't control the actions of others, even if I'd like to or think it's for the common good (even though I'd like to, esp. with what happened in the US yesterday). I think that if for most people knowing that obesity is a risk factor for many diseases and complications isn't motivating enough to get someone to change, knowing that it also could be somehow contributing to the healthcare crisis created by COVID wouldn't be either.

I do know that obesity in and of itself (even outside of COVID) can increase the strain on the healthcare system, yet I feel it's a little late at this point to negate its affects when it comes to COVID. Could it make a small dent if right now everyone decided to lose weight? Maybe. But how would that work outside of people deciding to make the changes themselves? Even so, losing weight healthily can take awhile. Should the government get involved somehow? How would that even work?

siberiantarragon · January 2021

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

In actuality, low vitamin D would be much easier to treat than obesity, because I think being obese and the solutions to it are multi-faceted for many people (not just that they are "uninformed," "lazy, or "lack willpower"_ and just need to "eat less and move more"-not my thoughts).

Which is probably why public health experts should have recommended for everyone to take a vitamin D supplement, but for some reason they didn't. I've been taking one since I first heard about the vitamin D and COVID-19 thing in April, because even if it turns out to not be a risk factor, it can't hurt (it also had the fortunate side effect of clearing up the terrible PCOS-related cystic acne I had for several months before that, and which nothing else would fix!) However, as I said, low vitamin D is still not listed on the list of risk factors. Which tells me that probably there isn't enough evidence to prove a correlation, or the correlation is weak, or it's one of those "correlation != causation" things. In any case, there must be some reason why it's not on there after all this time.

And you are absolutely correct in that people know they are obese, and most likely already know that it's a risk factor for COVID complications. I know the people I know that are obese do.

Then why would they rather destroy society indefinitely than do something about it? It's one thing to harm yourself and that's something I understand, but when other people are collateral damage, that's when it becomes unfair.

I guess I've become (or tried to become) more of the mindset that I can't control the actions of others, even if I'd like to or think it's for the common good

Yeah as I said in an earlier post, I'd prefer it if I got to mind my own business and everyone else got to mind theirs. And that was the world we lived in prior to 2020. But that's not the world we live in anymore. Everyone else gets to control my actions, to an extreme degree, under the auspices of "for the common good." They get to say "you're not allowed to socialize anymore for the good of society" and so on and even enforce it with fines and jail time. So if it's going to be like that, then I think that should be a two-way street, and I should be allowed to say "you don't get to overeat anymore for the good of society." How are the two things any different?

I do know that obesity in and of itself (even outside of COVID) can increase the strain on the healthcare system, yet I feel it's a little late at this point to negate its affects when it comes to COVID.

We don't know how much longer COVID is going to go on, but it seems like most experts are predicting at least several more months. In any case, losing weight can't hurt.

Should the government get involved somehow? How would that even work?

According to the precedent set by this past year, a) yes, and b) if their previous actions are any guide, probably through mandatory food rationing, fines, and jail time.

7rainbow · January 2021

I find that I can be torn at times, and that some things are more case specific than others. I do think that bodies of different shapes and sizes should be represented in the media, however I do believe that they should be healthy. Now I'm not only talking your perfect gym body kind of person, but there are plenty of us out there with some flab here and there that are in the healthy spectrum of weight. I used to be underweight and seeing underweight and anorexic models in the media contributed to that obsession. Thw same thing can be said with obese individuals in the media. It is reported that 2/3 of Americans are overweight, and by seeing models who are 300 pounds reinforces the idea that being that weight is okay. I'm all for loving your body at all sizes and I don't think people should be shamed or harrased about their appearance, however just like we don't glamorize smoking anymore I don't think we should glamorize unhealthy bodies of any type.

lemurcat2 · January 2021

Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

Wiseandcurious wrote: »

siberiantarragon wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

For myself, I don't spend much time considering what could have been if other people had done or would do some other thing, especially if it's in the past.

It's not in the past though. The COVID situation is ongoing and getting worse, and is projected to last several more months at least. Even after COVID is done with, pandemics happen fairly frequently (the last one was only 10 years ago --H1N1) and the population is less and less able to handle them as their overall health declines due to obesity. Diseases that might not be pandemics in a healthier population, might be pandemics in a less healthy one. There's also the larger policy question of the responsibility of the individual to society -- is it our civic duty to maintain our personal health? So these questions won't just go away.

I'm old (65) and have the start of COPD, so I'm at higher risk of dying, but I can't wrap my head around considering whether I should take more blame for the pandemic and its consequences because of those things (if I hadn't lived with smokers most of my life, despite not being one, I probably wouldn't have the COPD . . . .).

I wouldn't consider those factors to be blame-worthy. I also don't judge people who were obese and decided to get to a healthy weight because of COVID, or people who choose to remain obese but also disagree that everyone else should sacrifice in order to protect them.

I do wonder, though, if age has to do with our different responses to the lockdowns. I'm 29 and spent my first 22 years living in a violent, abusive household, so I feel like I barely got to live and missed out on a lot in my life, and now even more is being taken away. It sucks to not even be 30 and feel like "well, this is the limit of what I'm going to experience in life." I lost many years of my life because my family couldn't get their act together, and now it just feels like this is a variant of the same thing.

Truly, I'm sympathetic, but don't feel that I have any way to help. I think this is probably not the thread for it, either, especially if we diverge from the subject of obesity and its "glamorization".

The discussion did diverge from the original point.

From my direct and indirect observation and anecdata, many of the people who gained in the pandemic are not obese, just on the verge of normal weight. I.e. obese and normal BMI gained alike. The fact that most people gained is due to moving less when wfh, since no commute (plus probably stress eating, food inequality issues etc. but reduced movement is a huge factor). And before you say that they should have used the commute time to do extra sport - statistics show most people use that time now to do extra work! The fear of losing their livelihood is real, as well as all other stressors, mental health issues etc.

Sorry people gained weight during the pandemic because they chose to eat more calories than they burned (just like weight gain over holidays, a vacation, etc).

Weight gain is not the pandemic's fault, need to look in one's own mirror.

Let the disagrees and excuses begin.

I also don't understand why there is this huge "pandemic weight gain" everyone is talking about. I've had more time than usual during the pandemic (especially quarantine) to workout and be active since I had more time instead of wasting hours commuting. Now my after work meetings are zoom so I can use that time I'd usually spend commuting exercising. (Or even during)

So I'll respond to this since it is something I dealt with. I gained about 10 lbs during covid (I'm not overweight but closer than before and I'd wanted to lose about 5 vanity lbs before).

First, I don't have more time than before. I can work from home, but was told my planned vacation (I hadn't had once for a few years) was off the table, since clearly I could not go anywhere, and since we were worried about clients not paying billable hours being high was even more important than before. Even for Thanksgiving, when I had hoped to finally get 4 days off, I was told it wasn't a real Thanksgiving so working 3 of the 4 days (which I did) was totally fine. Unlike before in general I don't feel like I'm ever off the clock or unable to check and respond to emails. I used to work long hours (8-7 plus commuting on both ends and more when something was due) but feel like I could ignore work when not there, and the difference has messed with my head.

I do have less of a commute, but this makes activity harder -- I used to get lots of steps walking to and from the L, and now I don't. When I go to my office, I drive, and those are my worst step days, and (while it's possible), my at home days require deciding to go for a walk vs required walking.

More significantly, I had dealt with my stress eating pre covid but covid plus being at home and the lack of normal social activity (which I admit is hard for me) has caused it to resurface and be very hard to deal with. I'm depressed and anxious, and I never have to wear normal work clothes, and much of my normal activity required to go to work doesn't exist (and that my gym was close to my office was significant for me, although I've largely kept up my weights stuff), and I find it irritating that people claim we have more time, as I do not-- as noted work is more stressful and was super busy most of 2020. So yes, I tell myself all the time I have no excuse for gaining weight and it should be easy to lose it, but that most have doesn't suggest to me some glamorous view of obesity or that people think it's great to be fat, but struggles more akin to mine.

I have had mental health struggles that play into this pre covid, but I think most people likely do too, so won't pretend that makes me somehow special, but it also is something I think us awful weight gaining people do, in fact, deal with.

Speakeasy76 · January 2021

siberiantarragon wrote: »

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

In actuality, low vitamin D would be much easier to treat than obesity, because I think being obese and the solutions to it are multi-faceted for many people (not just that they are "uninformed," "lazy, or "lack willpower"_ and just need to "eat less and move more"-not my thoughts).

Which is probably why public health experts should have recommended for everyone to take a vitamin D supplement, but for some reason they didn't. I've been taking one since I first heard about the vitamin D and COVID-19 thing in April, because even if it turns out to not be a risk factor, it can't hurt (it also had the fortunate side effect of clearing up the terrible PCOS-related cystic acne I had for several months before that, and which nothing else would fix!) However, as I said, low vitamin D is still not listed on the list of risk factors. Which tells me that probably there isn't enough evidence to prove a correlation, or the correlation is weak, or it's one of those "correlation != causation" things. In any case, there must be some reason why it's not on there after all this time.

And you are absolutely correct in that people know they are obese, and most likely already know that it's a risk factor for COVID complications. I know the people I know that are obese do.

Then why would they rather destroy society indefinitely than do something about it? It's one thing to harm yourself and that's something I understand, but when other people are collateral damage, that's when it becomes unfair.

I guess I've become (or tried to become) more of the mindset that I can't control the actions of others, even if I'd like to or think it's for the common good

Yeah as I said in an earlier post, I'd prefer it if I got to mind my own business and everyone else got to mind theirs. And that was the world we lived in prior to 2020. But that's not the world we live in anymore. Everyone else gets to control my actions, to an extreme degree, under the auspices of "for the common good." They get to say "you're not allowed to socialize anymore for the good of society" and so on and even enforce it with fines and jail time. So if it's going to be like that, then I think that should be a two-way street, and I should be allowed to say "you don't get to overeat anymore for the good of society." How are the two things any different?

I do know that obesity in and of itself (even outside of COVID) can increase the strain on the healthcare system, yet I feel it's a little late at this point to negate its affects when it comes to COVID.

We don't know how much longer COVID is going to go on, but it seems like most experts are predicting at least several more months. In any case, losing weight can't hurt.

Should the government get involved somehow? How would that even work?

According to the precedent set by this past year, a) yes, and b) if their previous actions are any guide, probably through mandatory food rationing, fines, and jail time.

I don't know where you live but it's not like that where I live, and I live in a state in the US that's been more extreme with their restrictions. We don't get fines or jail time, however, if these aren't followed. Businesses can kick you out if you're not wearing a mask, but I see people not wearing them appropriately all the time in stores. My kids have not been to in-person school for 10 months. If we're lucky, they'll get to go back 2 days a week starting next month. It sucks, but not one time did I think that obese people need to do their part and lose weight so my kids can go back to school. I still am able to socialize with a few select people and visited my mom over the holidays. I wear masks when I go out in public and to work, including to the gym and dance class. I'm not happy about what's going on, but again, I need to focus on what I can do. Also, it's not me telling people to wear masks, close restaurants, avoid travel and limit gatherings of more than 10 people. It's the government doing this--big difference.

If people are having such a hard time wearing a piece of cloth over their noses and mouths and limiting gatherings, I doubt they'd be any more inclined to lose weight ( a much harder task, as many people on this site can attest to) for the good of society. The other thing is, this pandemic is stressful for everyone, and how some people cope with stress is by eating. When one is dealing with a lot of stress (and for some this may be huge stressors, like dealing with the loss of a loved one from COVID or losing one's job), it's often not the best time to embark on a weight loss journey, even if for the "good of society."

siberiantarragon · January 2021

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

I don't know where you live but it's not like that where I live, and I live in a state in the US that's been more extreme with their restrictions. We don't get fines or jail time, however, if these aren't followed.

Well, we do get fines and jail time for violating the laws. But where I live is pretty middle-of-the-road when it comes to restrictions. If I lived in California, the UK, France, or Australia, it would be a lot worse. And when we're having this discussion, we should consider how many people worldwide are still in that strict lockdown situation even to this day, not just what's going on in our local area.

It sucks, but not one time did I think that obese people need to do their part and lose weight so my kids can go back to school.

Why not? Could it be because society tells you that's a taboo thing to consider? Or because obesity is so normalized that people aren't seeing how much of a negative effect it really has?

I still am able to socialize with a few select people

We are allowed to socialize with a few people now, but for months we weren't, and it could all be taken away at any time now that the precedent is set.

Also, it's not me telling people to wear masks, close restaurants, avoid travel and limit gatherings of more than 10 people. It's the government doing this--big difference.

Yes, exactly. The government is mandating this. So why does it offend people to suggest that if they are going to make it illegal to go to work and socialize, they should also have some legal restrictions on obesity?

The other thing is, this pandemic is stressful for everyone, and how some people cope with stress is by eating. When one is dealing with a lot of stress (and for some this may be huge stressors, like dealing with the loss of a loved one from COVID or losing one's job), it's often not the best time to embark on a weight loss journey, even if for the "good of society."

Well, I cope with stress (and OCD, PTSD, and suicidal thoughts, etc.) by socializing. 2020 wasn't the best time for me to embark on a "don't see anyone for five months journey" for the "good of society," yet I was expected to do it. Why are some coping mechanisms acceptable, and others aren't, even though both increase the risk of COVID deaths?

Speakeasy76 · January 2021

Why not? Could it be because society tells you that's a taboo thing to consider? Or because obesity is so normalized that people aren't seeing how much of a negative effect it really has?

I'll answer this and won't continue any further, as it's clear we have different opinions on the subject and it's not really worth my time to argue on the matter. There's a quote that's used in AA, NA, OA, etc. that's something along the lines of "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." I'm not religious, but it's not worth it to me to get worked up about obese people losing weight to lessen the severity of the pandemic. If someone came to me with advice on how to lose weight (my best friend is obese, so she could), I would gladly help them, but I'm not going to tell people what to do without being asked. That's not how I roll. Just like if I saw someone in the store not wearing their mask appropriately, I'm not going to yell at them to put it on right.

Wiseandcurious · January 2021

siberiantarragon wrote: »

Wiseandcurious wrote: »

You are clearly struggling with this a lot more than many other people, and I am very sorry about that.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say the many people who became homeless, lost all their money, killed themselves, lost out on a year of education, died from non-COVID issues that they couldn't get healthcare for, etc. are having a worse time with it than me. My experience is pretty middle-of-the-road.

Faulting obese people for that will not help you, and I hope you can find help either in other discussions and conversations, from your support network, therapy etc.

You seem to be framing this as some sort of uninformed, emotionally-reactive personal opinion I have, rather than a statement of fact backed up by evidence that COVID affects obese people more, and therefore obese people are straining healthcare resources. In fact the entire purpose of your post seems to be to invalidate my opinion by framing me as "triggered" and "crazy" under the guise of pretending to care. I see you.

The reason governments don't put their strategy for beating the pandemic on obesity is simple - getting people to lose weight would take long to move the covid needle

And yet, it's been nine months. If people started in March, they could have lost quite a bit of weight by now. "The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second-best time is today."

I live in Canada - we have similar obesity rates to the states I expect, and have been doing incomparably better due to early and more complete lockdowns and solidarity and taking measures seriously.

So (this is a bit off-topic but) how do you explain the UK and France then? They have similar death rates per million as the US (source: ourworldindata.org COVID-19 statistics), despite having much more restrictive lockdowns.

if you find that the topic of covid and obesity is really triggering for you

Please don't reduce my thought-out opinion on this matter to "triggering." That is SO patronizing.

I apologize if I came across patronizing - that was not my intention. Tone is hard to judge online. I have said nothing about "uninformed". Correct - to me your posts did seem overly imbued with emotion, regardless of the merit of your argument or lack thereof, and I did attribute it to your (self-described) struggling with the pandemic. My compassion was real, but apparently uncouthly expressed and/or uncalled for.

So regarding the merits of your opinion:

I noticed you never bothered to actually reply to the point above of Canada vs US, you resorted to the UK and France as counterexample (quite wrong - see below) without discussing the merits of the point. So I will repeat it in a different way, with actual numbers - obesity rates in Canada are on average 10% lower than US, covid deaths per capita are almost 3 times lower (easy to google). The two countries had/have approaches as different as day and night to distancing measures although similar (see above) obesity levels. From this example, clearly distancing has been many times more impactful than weight regulation. So throwing government resources into extra (as opposed to already existing) measures against obesity would be wrong at this time -better use those resources to enforce proper social distancing - that is what I was trying to say.

Your counterexamples are factually incorrect. UK and France did not have comparable measures to Canada at all throughout the past 9 months (UK notoriously so).

If you look at deaths per capita, UK is logically right up there with US (similar approach to covid, similar leadership), together with other countries who did not distance properly either in the first wave or during summer or in the second wave. The only European country who approached covid with similar to Canada's levels of measures, consistency over time, and compliance, has been perhaps Germany and not surprisingly, they are way down the list of deaths per capita, close to Canada. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

Exposure > obesity in terms of societal impacts. It's not fat folks that cause covid risk to others, as you and others up thread try to say. It's misguided folks without masks and not distancing.

siberiantarragon · January 2021

Wiseandcurious wrote: »

I noticed you never bothered to actually reply to the point above of Canada vs US, you resorted to the UK and France as counterexample (quite wrong - see below) without discussing the merits of the point.

I have a lot more thoughts on the matter, but I reduced it down to the most important couple of sentences because this thread isn't the place for general pandemic discussion.

However, I will say that you're uninformed on the UK and France. The UK had a lockdown for months where you're only allowed to associate with one other family, and celebrating the holidays was banned. Now it's even stricter than that. These are their current rules and they've had rules as restrictive as this on and off since the beginning depending on case numbers (https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52530518) They even have rules restricting what you can buy in stores as "essential" vs. "non-essential." The police are also strongly enforcing lockdowns with jail time. Schools are also not open.

France had lockdowns where outdoor exercise was banned in some areas, the punishment being a six-month jail sentence! (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11345945/coronavirus-paris-ban-outdoor-exercise-jail-france/) To say that is comparable to the measures in any part of the US is simply false.

I have a friend who lives in Canada and her area was, at its peak, equally restricted as mine was, and hers opened up earlier. By fall, shopping malls, restaurants, schools, etc. were open and small indoor gatherings were allowed. So to say that Canada had some kind of insane lockdown compared to the US is simply untrue.

Getting back to obesity, Canada has a 25% obesity rate according to this article from August of this year (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53656651) vs. 42% for the US. So it absolutely could play a role in lower death rates. (BTW, if you want to see an example of obesity being normalized by doctors, check out that article!)

Again though if you want to discuss this further (and I could discuss this all day), we should do it in another thread or over PM, because this thread is about the normalization of obesity in modern culture and its effects.

kshama2001 · January 2021

siberiantarragon wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

"People"? Some will understand and empathize, some won't. The aggressive ones will dominate conversation (which side they're on will vary from context to context). Will there be universal approval of you? No. (And that's true in pretty much all cases, not just yours, and not just this situation.)

There's definitely way less social approval of "I can't social distance because of my mental health" vs. "I can't lose weight because of my mental health." Also, people who violate social distancing laws are fined and/or imprisoned, so...yeah, big difference there.

higher social needs people

My social needs have historically been lower than the average person's.

I don't know how locked down your area is. Here (despite freezing weather) there are still some limited outdoor dining or socializing options available (legally). Many workplaces have (some) people, stores are open with limitations, many things are allowed that don't involve large groups of people close together indoors in one space at the same time. Perhaps your area is more tightly restricted, I don't know. (I'm in Michigan.)

Right now we can gather with up to 10 people and we can go to restaurants. (Also I just looked it up and apparently we're supposed to "wear face coverings and stay six feet apart" during indoor gatherings, which my friends and I haven't been doing, so I guess we actually did break the law...oops.)

However, in the spring and summer, we weren't allowed to socialize outside our immediate household and basically everything except grocery stores, pharmacies, and hardware stores was closed. Parks and beaches were also closed for a few months, and even after they reopened they only had 25% capacity. Many people got fined/imprisoned for socializing. My husband and I didn't have an in-person conversation with anyone besides each other between March and August.

What I'm concerned about is that, even though things are ok now, this could all be taken away at any time. A precedent has been set, and hospitalizations are going up, as we are constantly reminded. I can see my friends now, but what about next week?

Also, I would like to meet some new people, especially because we just moved to a new town where we don't know anyone (we had to leave our previous city where all my friends live because crime went up due to the lockdowns, and our car got stolen and smashed up). I don't know how to go about that with everything either closed or social distanced.

There's also still lingering psychological effects from the lockdowns. As I've said, so many people were really awful to me for pointing out the harm caused by the lockdowns and various forms of peoples' hypocrisy when it comes to COVID. Sometimes it was surprising because it was people who I didn't expect would act that way. It's made me not trust people so even when we do meet new people, I don't really know how I will determine who to socialize with. But then, like all humans, I have the biological need to socialize, so I can't just avoid people, either. Having our car stolen didn't help with the whole trusting people thing, either (also, they caught the guy who did it and he got bailed out immediately due to COVID).

I also feel like I've forgotten how to socialize normally and I still feel weird talking to people. Socialization has never come naturally to me, but I've definitely regressed, and I think my husband has regressed even more than I have (he's kind of terrified of people now, and drinks even before a Zoom meetup because of his social anxiety).

As you can imagine, all the health paranoia was awful for my OCD (which is why I spent so much time researching it in the first place, to make sure I wasn't really at that much risk from COVID). I have some strategies for managing hypochondria, but considering it's now socially frowned upon to NOT be a hypochondriac, sometimes it gets overwhelming. It also makes me angry that people are being encouraged to have hypochondria because it's something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy and I lost years of my life to it in the past. I definitely considered suicide at many points during the spring and summer, although I think that's become a commonplace thing now.

Also, I've never had a problem with alcohol in my life, but now whenever I drink, I'm not able to stop. I didn't drink at all during the isolation part of the lockdown, and I still don't generally drink unless I'm out with friends. But on the occasions that I do drink, I drink either until there's no more alcohol, or until I can barely stand up, which was never the case before. I think it's somehow related to FOMO or something, like "I have to have the maximum amount of fun now because this could all be gone tomorrow." I still feel like I'm "socially starved."

That's not even getting into all the worries about what's going to happen to society overall. I've been pretty fortunate, like, I don't have to worry about being homeless or anything, but what about the people who do? What about the city where I lived for 21 years which is now collapsing into a crime-infested dumpster? What about the kids who aren't getting an education? What about the people who aren't able to keep away the suicidal thoughts? Is there going to be another Great Depression?

What angers me the most though, is just feeling like there will be no "reckoning" or acknowledgment for any of this. I've followed the rules even though I don't agree with them and they don't actually benefit me, and I've tried to give a factual assessment of all aspects of the situation, and in return, all I've gotten is insults (not from you guys, I'm just talking about in general). Nobody would ever go out of their way to help me, yet I'm expected to help them even though they won't help themselves. I feel like everyone else is "allowed" to be irresponsible but me. People don't get criticized at all by society for their unnecessary unhealthy habits that led to them being at higher risk for COVID, yet I get criticized for wanting things that every human being requires, like interactions with people.

IDK, maybe the "Covidiot shaming culture" has infected me, which is why I feel so angry about the normalization of obesity making this entire thing worse than it had to be. Because everyone else is judging and blaming other people for "not doing the right thing," so, why can't I? I would have rather minded my own business when it came to public health and had everyone else mind theirs. But since everyone else's health is now apparently my responsibility, shouldn't I get a say in how they live their lives?

While all of us probably would like it to be possible to be "back to normal", that's not in the cards right now. Beyond that, I think it's not an all or nothing situation in reality, in many places (can't speak for yours), nor are most people's reactions completely all or nothing (more common among the outspoken ones, perhaps).

But if more people had lost weight earlier in the year, would we currently be having a surge in hospitalizations so large that it overwhelmed the hospitals? That's what I want to know the answer to. Surely more people losing weight would have at least mitigated the surge to some extent.

So you are using drinking to excess as a coping mechanism / to self medicate. (I'm not judging - I used to do that myself.)

Is it so hard to imagine that during these stressful times others are using food in the same way?

siberiantarragon · January 2021

kshama2001 wrote: »

So you are using drinking to excess as a coping mechanism / to self medicate. (I'm not judging - I used to do that myself.)

Is it so hard to imagine that during these stressful times others are using food in the same way?

No, you misread. When I do drink, I drink more than I used to. But I still drink infrequently. For example, this month I've drank three times so far, twice while hanging out with a few friends, and once on NYE with my husband. I didn't drink at all during the restrictive part of the lockdown and if there was another restrictive lockdown I wouldn't drink then either, because that is a negative environment which increases the chance of problem drinking developing. A lot of people became alcoholics during the lockdown, especially with a culture that celebrated "quarantinis" and so on (there should be another thread on the normalization of alcohol abuse in society....)

Also, I'm a total lightweight (probably because I don't drink that often), so the amounts of alcohol we're talking about is not that much. 3 drinks over the course of a couple of hours is enough to get me pretty drunk, and 5 is in "can barely stand up" and "hangover for the entire next day" territory. Five is pretty much my absolute limit of what I can have in a night. In the past I would have 1 or 2 drinks and then the "that's enough" switch would flip in my brain.

So basically it's more something I have to monitor to make sure it doesn't progress into an issue (especially as I have family members who are alcoholics), and if it does show signs of progressing, then I have to stop drinking entirely. It's annoying that I now have to monitor it, whereas I didn't have to before, and it would be annoying to have to give up alcohol. But it's not currently endangering my health or anyone else's health or increasing my risk of dying of COVID or other causes. So it's not the same thing as what we're talking about with obesity and overwhelming the healthcare system.

ahoy_m8 · January 2021

I'm just catching up on this thread and have only read about 20% of it but will slowly make my way through.

An observation about magazines and media: they are selling something (ad space, yes, but the advertisers are selling something). When I am buying clothes in particular, I am interested to see them on a model who looks like me. If the model is roughly my shape and the clothes aren't flattering on her, I know they won't look good on me. Seeing clothes on a model who has a 100lb weight difference from me isn't really helpful to my own task at hand. I don't have a reaction to it either way, it just isn't of interest to me when I'm on a shopping task.

Media is trying to make money more than they are trying to shape cultural norms. They probably make more money if they can get the target audience to associate their product with something a little more appealing than reality. This has been the case since forever. (Perfume and beer ads show sexy dates and expensive cars, skin care ads show impossibly airbrushed skin, etc.) The mass market for ready-to-wear is going to show plus-size models because that reflects the mass market. There are specific designers who address only a specific part of the market -- some plus size specifically and some not; and their models will reflect that. I think clothing models trend a little slimmer than the actual market they are selling to, so I do see lean-bias there, not obesity glorification.

Beyond clothing, I do notice the pharma ads on TV feature actors who to me look much, much healthier than the average joe with the medical condition the drug addresses. Because people suffering with the condition likely aspire to be healthier and more active, there is a health-bias (including a lean-bias but also a high physical activity bias) in pharma ads, too. Again, not obesity glorification. Most seem only to hint at what the disease really looks like.

I don't think I've ever seen an ad in the US where 1/3 of the actors/models are overweight and 1/3 are obese. They're typically appreciably slimmer than the US average.

Thoughts on the “glamourizing/normalizing” obesity vs body positivity conversations

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