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Coronavirus prep

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  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 9,120 Member Member Posts: 9,120 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    When talking about possible vaccine reactions, I think it's important to remember two things, each kind of supporting opposite sides.

    First, not every doctor is an expert, or even understands, virology and vaccine science. And since covid-19 is new, even doctors who have some knowledge of viruses can be no better educated about it than an average layman. So it's quite possible that a primary care or ER doctor might give a patient bad info about covid or not react to a possible vaccine reaction correctly. It will take years for every doctor who might possibly see a patient about covid or one of the many covid vaccines to become experts themselves. I would suggest if anyone has something serious happen to them after vaccination and a doctor blows them off, contact your local public health dept and ask them how to report the possible reaction.

    But second, weird symptoms happen to otherwise healthy people all the time. People run a fever, have a seizure, have a stroke, get nauseous, all the time, unexpectedly and without a known cause. Some days I am extremely fatigued, some days my stomach acts up, some days my head hurts, and I'll never know why. With tens of millions of people getting a vaccine in a short period of time, it stands to reason that many people will experience symptoms or even major health issues in the hours and days afterward that have literally nothing to do with the vaccine. They would've happened anyway. Those conditions need to be reported, so that if there are patterns they will be seen and investigated, and compared to typical frequency of that kind of symptom in the population without a vaccine. But the fact that lots of people have something happen after they're vaccinated doesn't mean all of those something's is a reaction to the vaccine.

    I'm not at all diminishing people's suffering or suggesting nothing should be blamed on the vaccines. There is no doubt there will be rare but serious reactions to the vaccines, there always are to pretty much any medical intervention, and understanding those cases is important. But we talk a lot on the MFP forum about the difference between correlation and causation, and it applies here as well.

    (clipped for length)

    Lots of really good points here, but I just want to note that random medical incidents in the wake of the vaccination are more about the difference between coincidence and correlation than the difference between correlation and causation. That is, if you just hear about one friend or family member whose heart attack or seizure or whatever happened in the days or weeks after vaccination, that's just a coincidence for all we know until we study the incidence of such reactions in large numbers of people and find a statistical relationship -- that is, a correlation.

  • SModa61SModa61 Member Posts: 1,836 Member Member Posts: 1,836 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    When talking about possible vaccine reactions, I think it's important to remember two things, each kind of supporting opposite sides.

    First, not every doctor is an expert, or even understands, virology and vaccine science. And since covid-19 is new, even doctors who have some knowledge of viruses can be no better educated about it than an average layman. So it's quite possible that a primary care or ER doctor might give a patient bad info about covid or not react to a possible vaccine reaction correctly. It will take years for every doctor who might possibly see a patient about covid or one of the many covid vaccines to become experts themselves. I would suggest if anyone has something serious happen to them after vaccination and a doctor blows them off, contact your local public health dept and ask them how to report the possible reaction.

    But second, weird symptoms happen to otherwise healthy people all the time. People run a fever, have a seizure, have a stroke, get nauseous, all the time, unexpectedly and without a known cause. Some days I am extremely fatigued, some days my stomach acts up, some days my head hurts, and I'll never know why. With tens of millions of people getting a vaccine in a short period of time, it stands to reason that many people will experience symptoms or even major health issues in the hours and days afterward that have literally nothing to do with the vaccine. They would've happened anyway. Those conditions need to be reported, so that if there are patterns they will be seen and investigated, and compared to typical frequency of that kind of symptom in the population without a vaccine. But the fact that lots of people have something happen after they're vaccinated doesn't mean all of those something's is a reaction to the vaccine.

    I'm not at all diminishing people's suffering or suggesting nothing should be blamed on the vaccines. There is no doubt there will be rare but serious reactions to the vaccines, there always are to pretty much any medical intervention, and understanding those cases is important. But we talk a lot on the MFP forum about the difference between correlation and causation, and it applies here as well.

    (clipped for length)

    Lots of really good points here, but I just want to note that random medical incidents in the wake of the vaccination are more about the difference between coincidence and correlation than the difference between correlation and causation. That is, if you just hear about one friend or family member whose heart attack or seizure or whatever happened in the days or weeks after vaccination, that's just a coincidence for all we know until we study the incidence of such reactions in large numbers of people and find a statistical relationship -- that is, a correlation.

    Very very true. The parts of the stories that could concern me is if no notice is made of these coincidences (ie doctor reporting info) which would then not provide the data for doctors/scientists to determine if any are actually correlated.
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 7,048 Member Member Posts: 7,048 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    The day after my AZ vaccine I did feel fatigue -felt to me like when I used to work night shift and then tried to stay awake next day

    Now I could of been imagining that or had it coincidentally from some other cause - but seems to me unlikely since nothing else was different (it wasnt an excuse to call in sick either- I went to work and pushed through.)

    I work in a clinic and we have now given around 1000 vaccines - nobody has had serious side effects - however some have had minor side effects, more than just sore arm - fatigue, muscle aches, fever, nausea
    Some have had nothing.

    Not enough for any concern or reason not to have vaccine - but I also dont think we should dismiss such symptoms as all being imaginary either.

    We had our second Pfizer dose yesterday - I feel perfectly fine, my husband has some fever, chills and muscle/joint pain - flu like symptoms.

    What is interesting is that my husband came down with a bad bout of vertigo last week. I have had vertigo but he has never had it before. I said to him this morning that it was a good thing that he got it last week because if it had happened after the vaccine we would have probably suspected that as the cause. With thousands of people getting vaccinated every day there are bound to be coincidental health problems that occur.

    since you quoted me to say this - so I assume your post is in response to mine.

    Yes I accept my reaction could of been co incidence due to some other unknown cause - but given it is a known reaction and nothing else was different and this is not something that happens to me regularly - I think it far more likely it was a vaccine reaction.

    a mild one and not of concern - but also not to be dismissed.
  • 33gail3333gail33 Member Posts: 956 Member Member Posts: 956 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    The day after my AZ vaccine I did feel fatigue -felt to me like when I used to work night shift and then tried to stay awake next day

    Now I could of been imagining that or had it coincidentally from some other cause - but seems to me unlikely since nothing else was different (it wasnt an excuse to call in sick either- I went to work and pushed through.)

    I work in a clinic and we have now given around 1000 vaccines - nobody has had serious side effects - however some have had minor side effects, more than just sore arm - fatigue, muscle aches, fever, nausea
    Some have had nothing.

    Not enough for any concern or reason not to have vaccine - but I also dont think we should dismiss such symptoms as all being imaginary either.

    We had our second Pfizer dose yesterday - I feel perfectly fine, my husband has some fever, chills and muscle/joint pain - flu like symptoms.

    What is interesting is that my husband came down with a bad bout of vertigo last week. I have had vertigo but he has never had it before. I said to him this morning that it was a good thing that he got it last week because if it had happened after the vaccine we would have probably suspected that as the cause. With thousands of people getting vaccinated every day there are bound to be coincidental health problems that occur.

    since you quoted me to say this - so I assume your post is in response to mine.

    Yes I accept my reaction could of been co incidence due to some other unknown cause - but given it is a known reaction and nothing else was different and this is not something that happens to me regularly - I think it far more likely it was a vaccine reaction.

    a mild one and not of concern - but also not to be dismissed.
    33gail33 wrote: »
    The day after my AZ vaccine I did feel fatigue -felt to me like when I used to work night shift and then tried to stay awake next day

    Now I could of been imagining that or had it coincidentally from some other cause - but seems to me unlikely since nothing else was different (it wasnt an excuse to call in sick either- I went to work and pushed through.)

    I work in a clinic and we have now given around 1000 vaccines - nobody has had serious side effects - however some have had minor side effects, more than just sore arm - fatigue, muscle aches, fever, nausea
    Some have had nothing.

    Not enough for any concern or reason not to have vaccine - but I also dont think we should dismiss such symptoms as all being imaginary either.

    We had our second Pfizer dose yesterday - I feel perfectly fine, my husband has some fever, chills and muscle/joint pain - flu like symptoms.

    What is interesting is that my husband came down with a bad bout of vertigo last week. I have had vertigo but he has never had it before. I said to him this morning that it was a good thing that he got it last week because if it had happened after the vaccine we would have probably suspected that as the cause. With thousands of people getting vaccinated every day there are bound to be coincidental health problems that occur.

    since you quoted me to say this - so I assume your post is in response to mine.

    Yes I accept my reaction could of been co incidence due to some other unknown cause - but given it is a known reaction and nothing else was different and this is not something that happens to me regularly - I think it far more likely it was a vaccine reaction.

    a mild one and not of concern - but also not to be dismissed.

    @paperpudding

    I quoted you just to continue the discussion on reactions and coincidence, not to imply that yours wasn't a vaccine reaction, I'm sure it was. We had the same reaction to our first shot, fatigue and headaches for a day and a half.

    The info about my husband was just an interesting aside of what can/could have happened with coincidental health issues.
  • GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Member Posts: 8,136 Member Member Posts: 8,136 Member
  • ahoy_m8ahoy_m8 Member Posts: 2,500 Member Member Posts: 2,500 Member
    I had Moderna #2 shot 46 hours ago and think most of my side effects to this side may be behind me which was mainly feeling tired.
    After first shot the side effects may have been more Covid-19 like but had passed after 22 hours leaving me stronger than any time in 2021.

    Ever if my sinus infection the first week of Jan 2021 masked Covid-19 at the time as my wife expected at the time I am glad I now have completed my 2 shot Covid-19 vaccination process and have physical proof because how much better I felt and still feel 24 hours after the 1st shot.

    Last Wednesday Cancer was ruled out as a cause of my blood issues for the past 5 months.

    Post vaccination side effects range from zero to death we read so I think comparing ours with others is without medical value.

    I'm glad they ruled out cancer, but did they get closer to figuring out what is causing your problem?

    No. The doctor said he expects the cause most likely will never be known. After the day they pulled 16 vials of blood for testing and got the dye contrast CT scans approval by insurance carrier and all was negative that was as far as the Carrier wanted to go. I never did have a sense that cancer was involved but they wanted to check it out so we did.

    I, too, lament the serious ordeal you have been through this year. Glad you are better! It is sad that the decision to cease diagnostics is a payment one rather than a medical one, but that is our world. At least twice that I recall specifically, MD's have explained to me that sometimes a cause is never known because so many factors are at work that they cannot all realistically be taken into account. Point being sometimes the decision to cease diagnostics is a medical one.
  • SModa61SModa61 Member Posts: 1,836 Member Member Posts: 1,836 Member
    @ahoy_m8 Interesting and thanks. For the person I mentioned, it happened overnight. If I am recalling correctly, his wife a nurse felt it was not a true seizure but that it had a neurological component. I think she said movement was an issue. The er labeled it a seizure. .... Now you have me thinking about my rare painless visual auras. Never bothered to share with my PCP.
  • cwolfman13cwolfman13 Member Posts: 39,582 Member Member Posts: 39,582 Member
    hipari wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    I think adverse reactions are relatively rare. Everyone I know personally is fully vaccinated and not a single one of them had anything more than a sore arm like they would with any other shot.

    Judging by work hour logging at my workplace, roughly a third of all vaccinated employees have taken some sick leave (either partial day or a full day) after their vaccination. Based on that, I don’t think it’s ”rare”.

    Yeah, nobody would ever think to use that as an excuse to take some time off work? I took a half day off as well mostly as a "just in case" and I was totally fine...and it was a Friday sooooo...

    How many of these people skipped some other fun activity? I bet it wasn't 1/3. I also wouldn't call a headache and fatigue for a day a particularly adverse reaction...which seems to be the most common complaint from people who've had some kind of issue after the vaccine.
    edited June 7
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 7,048 Member Member Posts: 7,048 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    I think adverse reactions are relatively rare. Everyone I know personally is fully vaccinated and not a single one of them had anything more than a sore arm like they would with any other shot.

    Judging by work hour logging at my workplace, roughly a third of all vaccinated employees have taken some sick leave (either partial day or a full day) after their vaccination. Based on that, I don’t think it’s ”rare”.

    Yeah, nobody would ever think to use that as an excuse to take some time off work? I took a half day off as well mostly as a "just in case" and I was totally fine...and it was a Friday sooooo...

    How many of these people skipped some other fun activity? I bet it wasn't 1/3. I also wouldn't call a headache and fatigue for a day a particularly adverse reaction...which seems to be the most common complaint from people who've had some kind of issue after the vaccine.


    as someone who did have fatigue for 24 hours ish after the vaccine - No I dont call it a particularly adverse reaction either - went out of my way to say it was a mild reaction, in fact - but neither do I think it should be dismissed as imaginary or not worth mentioning or just an excuse (wasnt an excuse for anything in my case, I went to work next day and pushed through, going to bed straight afterwards )

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