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Unwanted advice at gym

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  • CherimooseCherimoose Member Posts: 5,205 Member Member Posts: 5,205 Member
    aokoye wrote: »
    Cherimoose wrote: »
    It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?

    Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.
    It's completely and utterly different than joggers and cyclists being advised to wear neon and have lights when it's dark. That's an issue of a driver being physically able to see a runner or cyclist in time to not hit them. It's about the ability to see someone and have enough time to slow down and/or move over.

    You're taking the analogy too literally. It's simply an example where the other party can be at fault, yet you still have some control over the outcome.

    Another example - people often wear headphones at the gym to deter chatterboxes (of any gender) from talking to them and slowing their workous. Yes, chatterboxes should control themselves, and yes, people shouldn't have to wear headphones to avoid them.. but griping about how things "should" be and who's to blame is not an actionable solution that will make your next workout better. Headphones are. Likewise, wearing low-key clothes is likely to reduce how many guys talk to you at your next workout compared to wearing neon pink booty shorts with "Juicy" on the back. At least from what i've seen at gyms.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 9,186 Member Member Posts: 9,186 Member
    OP, I think you handled it beautifully. When I read the comment my advice was going to be, “Thanks, I already have a trainer and it’s not you,” and that’s pretty much what you said.

    Also, for the rest of the people discussing gym attire - the OP in my opinion would be beautiful in a burlap sack wearing a facial mask. The only way for her to avoid attracting attention would be to stay home, and I sure hope none of you are suggesting that. Also, if you are a man and your man brain insists that you flirt with attractive women you don’t know at all because reasons, the least you can do is not be patronizing about it.

    A large percentage of the time it is about power and control, not about whether the woman is beautiful (which if it were, by the way, would only justify forcing women to wear head-coverings in public if they didn't want to be blamed, based on your ceding of the ground on clothing by implying -- although I'm certainly more than willing to believe you didn't realize you were doing it -- that it would be different if a woman weren't so beautiful that she wouldn't shine in a burlap sack).
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 9,186 Member Member Posts: 9,186 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    aokoye wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    COGypsy wrote: »
    I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

    Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

    It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.

    Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.

    Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.

    Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.

    Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".

    Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.

    Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.

    Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>

    ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.

    So there are a lot of things going on here including the spreading of misinformation. Additionally, the people you were working with were not women, they were men (given that you said they were "going from female to male". If you want more information on the effect of testosterone on transmen here are some links:
    https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30999214

    not spreading scaring, in fact I fully support anyone being who they want to be. Male, female, straight, gay, pan. whatever, but when you have worked with people for a while and then they are given hormones that change them and now you notice tendencies to be more aggressive. How is that scare tactics? Its simply an N=1 observation. yes, one of the things I grew up with were transgender was a choice. I no longer believe that. I think that people are born a certain way. The "decision" is not a "decision". They are physically female, but in the brain. I mean the actual brain they are male. I actually had the fortitude to talk to several of the gentleman about what it was like growing up. They told me that from a young age they felt different than what they were being told. They felt ashamed they were attracted to women, wanted to wear mens cloths...ect. The area I am in is in the "bible" belt. So, when I say I got their life story I did. Because, I was curious about how things worked. One of them was nice enough to show me some research on the brains of SOME transgenders actually look more Male than female.

    I'm guessing the term for this is transplaining.
  • aokoyeaokoye Member Posts: 3,494 Member Member Posts: 3,494 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    aokoye wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    COGypsy wrote: »
    I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

    Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

    It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.

    Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.

    Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.

    Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.

    Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".

    Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.

    Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.

    Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>

    ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.

    So there are a lot of things going on here including the spreading of misinformation. Additionally, the people you were working with were not women, they were men (given that you said they were "going from female to male". If you want more information on the effect of testosterone on transmen here are some links:
    https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30999214

    not spreading scaring, in fact I fully support anyone being who they want to be. Male, female, straight, gay, pan. whatever, but when you have worked with people for a while and then they are given hormones that change them and now you notice tendencies to be more aggressive. How is that scare tactics? Its simply an N=1 observation. yes, one of the things I grew up with were transgender was a choice. I no longer believe that. I think that people are born a certain way. The "decision" is not a "decision". They are physically female, but in the brain. I mean the actual brain they are male. I actually had the fortitude to talk to several of the gentleman about what it was like growing up. They told me that from a young age they felt different than what they were being told. They felt ashamed they were attracted to women, wanted to wear mens cloths...ect. The area I am in is in the "bible" belt. So, when I say I got their life story I did. Because, I was curious about how things worked. One of them was nice enough to show me some research on the brains of SOME transgenders actually look more Male than female.

    I'm guessing the term for this is transplaining.

    Indeed it is.
  • MsHarryWinstonMsHarryWinston Member Posts: 1,027 Member Member Posts: 1,027 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

    Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

    Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

    I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

    This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

    Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

    I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
    Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

    Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
  • Theoldguy1Theoldguy1 Member Posts: 2,112 Member Member Posts: 2,112 Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Call me non-sociable, or whatever, but I really don't want to be talking to anyone at the gym, period. There is a big difference in being polite and saying hello, to giving advice or inquiring about someone else's workout. That annoys me to no end, and especially in this situation I would have probably told the guy to *kitten* off. I just want to get in there, do my work, and leave. People who do this are either making a very poor attempt at flirting, or are trying to feed their ego. I wish there was one gym we could ship all these people off to. That would be pretty entertaining actually, to see all these bro types critiquing each other and trying to determine who has the most perfect form. Thats reality tv I would watch.

    Assuming from your photo/avatar you're male, if you told him to kitten off, he wouldn't have called you a b***h or a c**t, which is actually on the low end of what women have to be aware could happen if they tell a jerk offering unsolicited advice, compliments, or invitations "no".

    Of course not, the guy would have called him a d**k or a##h#le. People tend to react if someone tells them to kitten off, regardless of sex.
    edited September 2019
  • psychod787psychod787 Member Posts: 4,073 Member Member Posts: 4,073 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    COGypsy wrote: »
    I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

    Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

    It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.

    Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.

    Just a warning. If you get called in by HR, saying "it's hard-wired in our brain and she was dressed in a certain way" isn't going to cut it.

    Actually, in my working environment, 90% women... it's the other way around!
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