Unwanted advice at gym

lynn_glenmont · September 2019

psychod787 wrote: »

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aokoye wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

COGypsy wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.

Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.

Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.

Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.

Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".

Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.

Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.

Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>

ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.

So there are a lot of things going on here including the spreading of misinformation. Additionally, the people you were working with were not women, they were men (given that you said they were "going from female to male". If you want more information on the effect of testosterone on transmen here are some links:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30999214

not spreading scaring, in fact I fully support anyone being who they want to be. Male, female, straight, gay, pan. whatever, but when you have worked with people for a while and then they are given hormones that change them and now you notice tendencies to be more aggressive. How is that scare tactics? Its simply an N=1 observation. yes, one of the things I grew up with were transgender was a choice. I no longer believe that. I think that people are born a certain way. The "decision" is not a "decision". They are physically female, but in the brain. I mean the actual brain they are male. I actually had the fortitude to talk to several of the gentleman about what it was like growing up. They told me that from a young age they felt different than what they were being told. They felt ashamed they were attracted to women, wanted to wear mens cloths...ect. The area I am in is in the "bible" belt. So, when I say I got their life story I did. Because, I was curious about how things worked. One of them was nice enough to show me some research on the brains of SOME transgenders actually look more Male than female.

I'm guessing the term for this is transplaining.

lynn_glenmont · September 2019

aokoye wrote: »

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Cherimoose wrote: »

aokoye wrote: »

Cherimoose wrote: »

It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?

Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.

It's completely and utterly different than joggers and cyclists being advised to wear neon and have lights when it's dark. That's an issue of a driver being physically able to see a runner or cyclist in time to not hit them. It's about the ability to see someone and have enough time to slow down and/or move over.

You're taking the analogy too literally. It's simply an example where the other party can be at fault, yet you still have some control over the outcome.

No, I'm really not taking it to seriously. What someone is wearing isn't an invitation to get hit on, harassed, or raped. It is not consent. It also doesn't prevent any of those things. Sexual harassment in all forms is about power, not about what someone is wearing. That you don't want to understand or grapple with that is a symptom of a wider societal issue.

That you think that somehow it makes sense to compare sexual harassment with someone getting accidently hit by a driver is disappointing but not shocking.

Great post, and especially the point made in the last paragraph.

aokoye · September 2019

lynn_glenmont wrote: »

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psychod787 wrote: »

aokoye wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

COGypsy wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.

Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.

Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.

Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.

Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".

Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.

Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.

Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>

ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.

So there are a lot of things going on here including the spreading of misinformation. Additionally, the people you were working with were not women, they were men (given that you said they were "going from female to male". If you want more information on the effect of testosterone on transmen here are some links:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30999214

not spreading scaring, in fact I fully support anyone being who they want to be. Male, female, straight, gay, pan. whatever, but when you have worked with people for a while and then they are given hormones that change them and now you notice tendencies to be more aggressive. How is that scare tactics? Its simply an N=1 observation. yes, one of the things I grew up with were transgender was a choice. I no longer believe that. I think that people are born a certain way. The "decision" is not a "decision". They are physically female, but in the brain. I mean the actual brain they are male. I actually had the fortitude to talk to several of the gentleman about what it was like growing up. They told me that from a young age they felt different than what they were being told. They felt ashamed they were attracted to women, wanted to wear mens cloths...ect. The area I am in is in the "bible" belt. So, when I say I got their life story I did. Because, I was curious about how things worked. One of them was nice enough to show me some research on the brains of SOME transgenders actually look more Male than female.

I'm guessing the term for this is transplaining.

Indeed it is.

lynn_glenmont · September 2019

Brianb603 wrote: »

Well as a guy...it sounds like he was trying to break the ice so he can be your spotter haha. Just ignore them. Literally. Keep squatting or jamming out to music. Those hurt the worst lol.

OK, as a guy, maybe you have a good explanation of why after being told she had a trainer and didn't need his advice, he stuck around, continued the conversation, and told her she looked like she was p****d with him after he apologized. He wasn't taking no for an answer.

MsHarryWinston · September 2019

sijomial wrote: »

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MsHarryWinston wrote: »

ceiswyn wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

MsHarryWinston · September 2019

This thread has become unbelievably fascinating!

There are so many different people I want to quote or refer to but this post would get out of hand.

I totally agree about the back-handed flip side of assuming that No Makeup = Ugly. I actually spend 90% of my time bare faced. Even at work. I have nice skin, nice features, and I like my bare face, so most of the time I just don’t bother. It doesn’t stop me from getting hit on all the time.

A person’s (in this case read “man’s” actions are THEIR responsibility. Mitigation?? Let’s talk about “mitigation”.

Tonight I took the bus to work. ZERO MAKEUP, wearing a zip up hoodie. A guy saw me on the bus, got off at my stop (way before his) was walking behind me and eventually caught up to me and tapped me on the arm because I wasn’t responding. My wireless headphones were hidden under my hair.

So he was trying to get my attention and even though I didn’t respond it DIDNT STOP HIM. Thankfully he turned out to be really polite in the end. He had seen me before and decided to take a chance. But his actions had NOTHING to do with me.

I hadn’t looked at him. I hadn’t smiled at him. I didn’t even know he existed until he came up behind me and physically touched me. Now I saw a shadow behind mine on the ground so I knew someone was close, but in a way those “don’t talk to me” headphones can make it easier for a man to sneak up on you.

So let’s go over the checklist.
- Runners
- Looser fitting hoodie
- ZERO makeup
- ZERO eye contact
- Resting b**tch face cause I’m just minding my own business.
- ZERO response when he tried to get my attention verbally
- Headphones in.

None of these things stopped him from talking to me and asking me for my number.

sijomial · September 2019

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

show previous quotes

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

ceiswyn wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!

Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....

Dolly989 · September 2019

Wow. I never expected this thread would get so many comments! Really interesting to see how many different topics were brought up. At the time I didn't think this guy was flirting with me just because of how rude he was, I've never been flirted with like that. But thanks to this thread I now know what negging is lol it makes sense now. I know I have good form and I can handle the weight but for a second I was doubting myself.

Oh and btw not that it matters but on this paticular day I wasn't dressed 'sexy'. I had a baggy long shirt and gym leggings, hair thrown up and no make up on. However, I often do wear tighter clothes or crop tops to the gym depending on how I'm feeling. I don't work really hard on my body to cover myself up all the time incase men can't control themselves. Thats what seperates us from animals we can control our instincts.

Theoldguy1 · September 2019

lynn_glenmont wrote: »

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wmd1979 wrote: »

Call me non-sociable, or whatever, but I really don't want to be talking to anyone at the gym, period. There is a big difference in being polite and saying hello, to giving advice or inquiring about someone else's workout. That annoys me to no end, and especially in this situation I would have probably told the guy to *kitten* off. I just want to get in there, do my work, and leave. People who do this are either making a very poor attempt at flirting, or are trying to feed their ego. I wish there was one gym we could ship all these people off to. That would be pretty entertaining actually, to see all these bro types critiquing each other and trying to determine who has the most perfect form. Thats reality tv I would watch.

Assuming from your photo/avatar you're male, if you told him to kitten off, he wouldn't have called you a b***h or a c**t, which is actually on the low end of what women have to be aware could happen if they tell a jerk offering unsolicited advice, compliments, or invitations "no".

Of course not, the guy would have called him a d**k or a##h#le. People tend to react if someone tells them to kitten off, regardless of sex.

psychod787 · September 2019

lynn_glenmont wrote: »

show previous quotes

psychod787 wrote: »

COGypsy wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.

Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.

Just a warning. If you get called in by HR, saying "it's hard-wired in our brain and she was dressed in a certain way" isn't going to cut it.

Actually, in my working environment, 90% women... it's the other way around!

petitchatnoir41 · September 2019

Did you have headphones? They are a good way to focus and give off the impression you are trying to do your own thing.

lindseyt71901 · September 2019

I don't know. I have been approached once or twice in the gym. The things that were mentioned to me were helpful. I don't mind someone approaching me and giving me advice.

I'm not saying what happened to you is appropriate, but I also don't look like you. I've never been "hit on" at the gym. Usually it's just, "Hey, since you're so short, if you put the seat setting to this, you'll get a better range of motion and not put as much strain on the wrong set of muscles," or something along those lines.

I'm sorry it happened but I'm glad your form is excellent. You LIFT your boohiney off, sister!

nighthawk584 · September 2019

I would just add, make sure this dude isn't following you home...sounds a little creepy and desperate.

CSARdiver · September 2019

Cahgetsfit wrote: »

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psychod787 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

COGypsy wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.

Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.

Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.

Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.

Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".

Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.

Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.

Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>

ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.

totally unrelated, but once many moons ago when I was trying oral contraceptives and none were working with me, my Dr prescribed one with a high testosterone level.

I punched my then boyfriend in the face because he was annoying me while I was trying to watch Beverly Hills 90210.

It felt good, I did not regret it.

I am not a violent person.

I stopped taking that pill pretty much straight after I clocked him in the face. *kitten* it felt good tho.

EDIT: another hormone-related anecdote from my personal experience too. Whilst taking a particular PED, towards the end of the cycle I was a walking around akin to a male with a permanent woody. I felt ready for "action" 24/7. My husband was a very happy man for a couple of weeks. Normally I am more like Elsa.

This is typical during dramatic shifts in hormone changes and I'm surprised you weren't warned beforehand. Biological systems are incredibly resilient and can endure dramatic changes, but the rate of change is key. This is why most hormone based pharmaceuticals are designed with some form of titering up/down so you can adjust easily.

magnusthenerd · September 2019

psychod787 wrote: »

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magnusthenerd wrote: »

Cherimoose wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.

Well if you believed that, and particularly for any men making that argument, what follows is that there should be mass castrations.
That said, testosterone absolutely does not work that way. The behaviors testosterone elicits are entirely dependent on both immediate context and cultural context. Give a bunch of Buddhist monks exogenous testosterone, and what you'll see is them trying to outdo each other in acts of generosity, not hitting on women at the mall.

Heck, the fact that gay men exist, have testosterone, and little interest in going up to women in that way should be a pretty quick example to make you question this belief.

I disagree a bit here. Gay guys can be just as aggressive with their preferred sex as anyone. Oh, have you ever dealt with a woman on high amounts of testosterone? I have, they can be very aggressive in that nature.

You're not disagreeing, you're misunderstanding. Gay guys go for guys, right? So testosterone, no matter how much, isn't innately making them go for women, right?
Thanks for giving a further example. Giving a woman testosterone isn't making her chase women, right?
In no case it is as simple as you give someone testosterone and they have a need to approach women.

Also, on high amounts of testosterone is a bit of a misnomer because it sounds like you're now talking about exogenous levels. Research on endogenous levels actually suggests there is no link between a given woman's innate testosterone level and sex drive, except for a slight correlation with interest in sex activities without a partner.
I'd also put forth that you put any person who's asexual with no physiological pathology behind on testosterone and they won't see an increase in drive to have sex with people. The whole thing is a lot more complex.

So, when you say you disagree with me, be clear. I'm not saying testosterone doesn't influence behavior, if you are genuinely disagreeing, you are saying testosterone absolutely dictates behavior in an inevitable way that culture can't alter.

magnusthenerd · September 2019

I would suggest that no one accept a claim of anything being hardwired in the brain, other than perhaps some incredibly low level stuff like continuing to breath and have a heartbeat.
Do not get me wrong. There are definitely evolutionary tendencies for some behaviors in humans - certain patterns that are easier to groove in or create in a brain. I believe none of them are inevitable though.
Simple counter example - there are cases of people born with literally half a brain, just one lobe that are by and large fully functional. If there was anything that was mandatory hardwired on a side of the brain, it would be impossible for those people. Developmentally, we have incredible amounts of neuroplasticity, and the I would say it is one of the hallmarks of the human brain.

In particular, those parts of the brain that regulate a lot of self-control actions like we're discussing here happen in the prefrontal cortex. The relevance is that it is one of the last evolved structures, a structure that is last to finish development, and consequently from those both, very neuroplastic, and the least genetically controlled part of the brain.

Frankly, if someone wants to say my sex can't stop X from hardwiring, I'm inclined to ask why you think we men aren't human.

shaf238 · September 2019

It's only ever appropriate if you asked someone to watch your form and critique it. And even then, they may still not know what correct form looks like! He's an outlier in terms of approaching someone in the gym to tell them their form is bad. You crack on the best way you know how and if you have any doubt, like you said, you have a PT and that's the person you can turn to for advice. Keep at it.

PWHF · September 2019

My gym has quite a few insecure people with something to prove. A few times I've been doing boxing bag work and had someone come over and start 'teaching' me. Or the 'big deal' lifter who needs a lot of space including the stations around him. Or shadow boxing guy who needs everyone in the free weights area to know how bada$$ he is...

And (I hate to say it) 'twerk girl' and her friend shouting encouragement ('Go on - you can do it!) doing Romanian deadlifts in the middle of the room.

This is why I go at 6 am.

Cherimoose · September 2019

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

Mitigation?? Let’s talk about “mitigation”.

Mitigation means to reduce, not eliminate. No one here claimed low-key clothes eliminate all interaction, just that it can reduce it. Try wearing sexy clothes and compare the number of times men talk to you.

Cherimoose · September 2019

aokoye wrote: »

No, I'm really not taking it to seriously. What someone is wearing isn't an invitation to get hit on, harassed, or raped. It is not consent. It also doesn't prevent any of those things. Sexual harassment in all forms is about power, not about what someone is wearing. That you don't want to understand or grapple with that is a symptom of a wider societal issue.

I stopped reading your post when you implied that to talking to people at the gym is sexual harassment. No time for that nonsense, sorry. Chatting in public is not a crime in the U.S. If men didn't talk with women in public, half of us wouldn't have been born!

Cherimoose · September 2019

aokoye wrote: »

So what's your argument for women who get "approached," assaulted, even raped wearing anything low-key t-shirts and shorts to low-key baggy sweats? And over-the-ear headphones just make you more vulnerable.

Assault and other crimes are irrelevant to the OP's question and my post, so i won't answer that here, sorry. Feel free to PM me.

fit_mama30 · September 2019

poptartkittie wrote: »

I don't know. I have been approached once or twice in the gym. The things that were mentioned to me were helpful. I don't mind someone approaching me and giving me advice.

I'm not saying what happened to you is appropriate, but I also don't look like you. I've never been "hit on" at the gym. Usually it's just, "Hey, since you're so short, if you put the seat setting to this, you'll get a better range of motion and not put as much strain on the wrong set of muscles," or something along those lines.

I'm sorry it happened but I'm glad your form is excellent. You LIFT your boohiney off, sister!

Yeah, same here.

Once a guy gave me a tip about stiff leg deadlifts. He was right and I wasn't paying attention to my form at the time so I welcomed the advice.

I mean, it always depends on how the person is approaching me. The guy ended up talking to me for a while (no clue if he was flirting or not) but he was respectful and wasn't talking to me like he knew better because he is a male.

Then again I've had random "advice" for other guys and it was just... GTFO, you don't know what you're talking about (he has awful form and is not in a position to give advice). And in those case you just nod and keep doing your thing.

Also, I always have headphones but that doesn't stop anyone from talking

Phirrgus · September 2019

sijomial wrote: »

show previous quotes

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

ceiswyn wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!

Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....

I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!

All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.

My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.

It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.

CSARdiver · September 2019

Phirrgus wrote: »

show previous quotes

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

ceiswyn wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!

Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....

I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!

All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.

My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.

It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.

I'm doing the same and see the same reaction although it's not even the wrong comment. Confirmation bias and projection on display.

It's one comment removed from context that fits a strawman construction in the mind of the outraged. Giving them license and justification to unleash wrath onto the strawman.

Phirrgus · September 2019

CSARdiver wrote: »

show previous quotes

Phirrgus wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

ceiswyn wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!

Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....

I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!

All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.

My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.

It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.

I'm doing the same and see the same reaction although it's not even the wrong comment. Confirmation bias and projection on display.

It's one comment removed from context that fits a strawman construction in the mind of the outraged. Giving them license and justification to unleash wrath onto the strawman.

Half of all internet debates would shut down were it not for that tiny bit of misplaced context

Strawmen are fairly easy to deal with though. But a strawman handing out red herring is a bit tougher lol.

ceiswyn · September 2019

Cherimoose wrote: »

show previous quotes

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

Mitigation?? Let’s talk about “mitigation”.

Mitigation means to reduce, not eliminate. No one here claimed low-key clothes eliminate all interaction, just that it can reduce it. Try wearing sexy clothes and compare the number of times men talk to you.

And as I've said, men talk to me less as a well-dressed (and yeah, usually sexy) woman than they did when I was an obese mess.

You know what would really mitigate unwanted harassment? Not constantly excusing the perpetrators.

MsHarryWinston · September 2019

sijomial wrote: »

show previous quotes

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

ceiswyn wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!

Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....

I seriously almost just choked I was laughing so hard. I mean, obviously it’s not “funny” but the sarcasm just killed me.

CSARdiver · September 2019

Phirrgus wrote: »

show previous quotes

CSARdiver wrote: »

Phirrgus wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

ceiswyn wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!

Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....

I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!

All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.

My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.

It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.

I'm doing the same and see the same reaction although it's not even the wrong comment. Confirmation bias and projection on display.

It's one comment removed from context that fits a strawman construction in the mind of the outraged. Giving them license and justification to unleash wrath onto the strawman.

Half of all internet debates would shut down were it not for that tiny bit of misplaced context Strawmen are fairly easy to deal with though. But a strawman handing out red herring is a bit tougher lol.

It's born out of resentment and envy. Easily identified, but impossible to deal with as those mired in such a state are in a prison of their own making.

"One reason why so many people are unhappy, not knowing why, is that they have burdened their minds with resentments. These evil thoughts pile right on top of happier and generous ones and smother them so that they never get expression. Resentments are a form of hate.... What a dearth of good will and co-operation there are among human beings and nations! What a world this would be if we all worked together, and as a popular diplomat recently expressed it-played together!" George Matthew Adams

MsHarryWinston · September 2019

Cherimoose wrote: »

show previous quotes

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

Mitigation?? Let’s talk about “mitigation”.

Mitigation means to reduce, not eliminate. No one here claimed low-key clothes eliminate all interaction, just that it can reduce it. Try wearing sexy clothes and compare the number of times men talk to you.

I’m a K-cup bra hourglass figure with a vast and varied wardrobe. Trust me, I’ve got enough real life comparison data. And I know the definition of mitigation.

MikePfirrman · September 2019

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

show previous quotes

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

ceiswyn wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!

Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....

I seriously almost just choked I was laughing so hard. I mean, obviously it’s not “funny” but the sarcasm just killed me.

Reminds me of my daughter's first work environment. She looks (thank God) more like her mom than me. She was in high level consulting with a bunch of IT people and Engineers. She was telling me when she would speak to her, they would just all look at her breasts, not her eyes, even when she wore loose, baggy clothes. I felt for her going through that. I think when you have a daughter in the professional world that battles this every day, it changes your perspective a lot.

Unwanted advice at gym

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