Coronavirus prep
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I think most people are aware of and care about all the effects from this Covid crisis. The big question is how do we, as a country, keep people the healthiest that we can while opening up again, keeping people employed, keeping businesses running, etc. How do we handle the increased child abuse, domestic abuse, suicides, mental health issues, etc., while trying to keep Covid from spreading further and stressing out the last of our medical workers?
I don't see any quick and easy answers to any of this except each and every one of us has to make better decisions for the common good. Be more vigilant as to how you feel; how many people are still going into work, thinking they've just got a cold? How many people who are supposed to be in quarantine but choose to go out into public anyways? How many people are being unknowingly exposed to asymptomatic people?
There was a news story today about a family that got together earlier this month(in Texas I believe) for a birthday party. One of the women infected due to the get-together has pneumonia and is in ICU. IIRC, most everyone(15) at the party contracted Covid. While trying to breathe, she cautioned everyone to not do what they did. Unfortunately, so many people won't listen until it becomes real for them because we've heard this same type of story repeated over and over since this all began. People wishing they'd done things differently.
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There is no normal until a majority of people are vaccinated. Full stop. Restrictions are meant to limit sickness and death until that happens. It's a fairy tale to think if we just stop fighting it everything will go back to "normal".
I can't even fathom the effect on the US economy if we just gave up and stopped trying to limit spread. A million people dying of covid over the course of a year, some racking up medical bills, others just dying at home because the hospital in their area was overcrowded. All the lost incomes, the grieving families, the exploding level of medical debt, the healthcare workers burning out or getting sick, the lost work hours of people dealing with longhaul symptoms (Constant fatigue, migraine, breathing issues lingering for months are being reported by a not-inconsequential percentage of survivors, many of whom had very mild cases). This too would lead to more deaths due to cancer, heart attacks, strokes due to overwhelmed hospitals and emergency services, more depression and suicides due to grieving families. And a lot of people would stay home anyway, it's not like everyone would just throw their masks away and go to a bar. Not to mention the disproportionate costs to minority communities and the poor, which would be devastated.
Better government financial assistance would've helped a lot, and still could. Countries that did a better job of supporting people staying home have "generally" had lower case numbers and deaths, and less economic hardship. They also got a little bit of a break over the summer before people started to let down their guard. They are seeing a spike now, but that's after they got down to very low numbers for several weeks, and did loosen their restrictions for a bit. We never got that break, because too many people weren't following restrictions in the first place, either because they chose not to, or because they had no choice (like those who couldn't work from home and couldn't afford to lose their jobs).
There is now light at the end of the tunnel. To think we might actually be able to defeat a novel virus in less than two years time is a historic success for humanity. Giving up now because it's not easy, rather than gaining momentum from the progress we've made would be a mistake. I'd say IMHO, but honestly I think this is just objectively true. I'm surprised there isn't this rising pride in our medical community and healthcare R&D, this should be huge news. We haven't done a great job societally, but if we can hold on for a few more months, things will slowly start improving. And we will find a new normal, just like we always do. How the heck did I become the pollyana in the thread by the end of this post???
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I remember when this thread was toilet paper and eating cat food 😂😜14
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janejellyroll wrote: »If we can't get back to "life as usual" then what is the point of taking the vaccine? A vaccine that can have serious side effects at that. There's going to be a TON of pushback on this if true...I mean that's not what's been being told to us here in the US, until very recently, and there's going to be many who refuse to do so if we can't leave the masks and social distancing behind.
The "point" would be that an effective vaccine would result in fewer people dying, which seems like a great outcome even if we do have to wear a mask in some situations.
But we already have far fewer people dying without a vaccine. They have learned to treat it, what to do and what not to do and several medicines have been shown to help already. Overall the death toll was pretty low - wasn't it .03%? And now fewer people are dying, fewer vents are being utilized (at 1 of the large hospital chains in my state current vent usage is 37% and that's for everyone, not just Covid patients), and there are overall better outcomes. If life will stay the same whether we get the vaccine or not I think you'll find it hard to convince the majority to get a vaccine, especially one where we can't know it's long term effects and that gives side effects but doesn't result in a return to normal (which is what has been being sold to the average American, that we need a vaccine to get back to normal).
kushiel1, fewer vents are being used because they are not a good idea to use on many patients doctors have now realised and not because things are getting better. Read this article or Google why ventilators not being used as often for Covid. I would have thought in your line of work you might have know about this already. I honestly don't see how you are thinking fewer people are dying. It's worse than ever over there. Here in Australia we are doing better every day and are opening up many boarders we had closed since there is almost no Covid, zero Covid in my state and most others. We are living mask free because we hit the virus hard with lockdowns and all the rest as soon as a small cluster arises.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/21/coronavirus-analysis-recommends-less-reliance-on-ventilators/
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rheddmobile wrote: »Clearly though the measures we have in place aren't working either - I'm sure there are a large number of cases that are due to engaging in large groups, no masks, etc but I'm also sure that I saw on this very forum that there's also plenty of cases that came from people who said that they do mask. It's a virus, it spreads, and I've always found it an interesting argument that a mask is supposed to help stop the spread. I think it's pretty clear that the virus isn't going to go away and that we can't expect people to keep up this level of restriction - let's say that every single case right now is due to people not following restrictions (which I don't believe) - how long exactly do you think people can keep this up? The economy is down, people are losing jobs that won't come back, small businesses are closing, mental health issues are massively on the rise. Do you really think that current conditions are sustainable for another year while we wait for enough people to get a vaccine that we dont' know the long term effects of and have no guarantee will work as advertised before we can get back to something approaching normal? Why is it only acceptable to prevent Covid deaths and not worry about other deaths that are results of the affects of covid - suicide, etc? People keep insisting that we have to do this because we can't allow people to die of Covid, but seem to not care about what is happening as a result of the restrictions.
This isn’t an either/or situation. I have a friend here who just ran an in-person race with 15,000 people. This happened because she lives in New Zealand, where they have been taking lockdowns and contact tracing so seriously that they are, in fact, now able to go back to normal.
Pretending the virus doesn’t exist and isn’t serious and that efforts to mitigate it are pointless leads to more virus, which leads eventually to less normalcy, because eventually things get so bad (no hospital beds, businesses shut down because of infected workers) that they can’t be ignored even by the most stubborn among us. Taking the virus seriously and behaving in a reality-informed fashion over the short term to do things that work, in the long term results in no virus and people living normal lives.
Also, the list of things that work includes support for those who have to deal with shut downs - emotional and financial support. Funny how the people who are most loudly complaining about being hurt by shut downs are also opposing relief.
Agree @rheddmobile
Here is a link to government data re mental health and suicide outcomes (to date) during 2020 here in Australia. It largely attributes our lockdowns, 'all in this together' approach and government financial support to maintaining almost the same rate of suicide as 2019. Mental Health care seeking has increased but that's not surprising.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/covid-1911 -
I wanted to come on and wish everyone (at least in the US) a Happy Thanksgiving.
Please be understanding. I likened this whole thing, early on, to the stages of grief. Many emotionally aren't capable of getting beyond shock, denial and anger (the first 3 stages of Grief). Most on here are already to Acceptance (the final stage). This sucks for everyone. Some much more than others.
Two bits of bad news today in terms of the fighting Coronavirus. One was AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine. Some of their protocol coming out are extremely concerning and going to come under a lot more scrutiny. The other one was SCOTUS ruling in a 5-4 decision that NY State could not limit the number of people gathering in churches. Working mostly in NYC as a consultant, I can tell you that this is seriously contentious in NYC. The orthodox Jewish community there has been gathering in church, maskless, with as many as 7K people under one roof -- all signing and such. Just a superspreader event on steroids. Culturally, they aren't going to follow guidelines. NY State tried to limit the spread and make that type of activity illegal. SCOTUS shut that down and said that's not within states' rights, which I'm having a real hard time understanding. These are the types of decisions (more by the community in NYC) that are just mind blowing to me.
Oh, and Phoenix (I'm in Tucson) is hosting a gigantic soccer tourny with 500 teams. I was a soccer parent for 15 years. I get how important that is for kids. But it's also HUGE money to local economies. This is more about the coaches, directors (who get paid up to six figures) and local communities to get a huge influx of needed cash. But it's also one of those things you say, well, this isn't going to go well.19 -
I saw that too @MikePfirrman1
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MikePfirrman wrote: »The other one was SCOTUS ruling in a 5-4 decision that NY State could not limit the number of people gathering in churches.
Just to clarify a bit, this blocks the NY executive order temporarily, as the case works its way up to the 2nd Cir and likely the SC again. And the issue is lack of neutrality: "The court explained that Cuomo’s order does not appear to be neutral, but instead “singles out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment.” For example, although a synagogue or a church in a red zone is limited to 10 people at a service, there are no limits on how many people a nearby “essential” business – which can include acupuncture or a camp ground – can admit."
It also suggests less restrictive rules, like a number based on the size of the church/synagogue building, would be okay.
That means the issues with the EO from the SC's perspective seem to be fixable, if Cuomo wants to fix it.
Good analysis, from which I took the quote: https://www.scotusblog.com/2020/11/justices-lift-new-yorks-covid-related-attendance-limits-on-worship-services/#more-29790511 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I wanted to come on and wish everyone (at least in the US) a Happy Thanksgiving.
Please be understanding. I likened this whole thing, early on, to the stages of grief. Many emotionally aren't capable of getting beyond shock, denial and anger (the first 3 stages of Grief). Most on here are already to Acceptance (the final stage). This sucks for everyone. Some much more than others.
Two bits of bad news today in terms of the fighting Coronavirus. One was AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine. Some of their protocol coming out are extremely concerning and going to come under a lot more scrutiny. The other one was SCOTUS ruling in a 5-4 decision that NY State could not limit the number of people gathering in churches. Working mostly in NYC as a consultant, I can tell you that this is seriously contentious in NYC. The orthodox Jewish community there has been gathering in church, maskless, with as many as 7K people under one roof -- all signing and such. Just a superspreader event on steroids. Culturally, they aren't going to follow guidelines. NY State tried to limit the spread and make that type of activity illegal. SCOTUS shut that down and said that's not within states' rights, which I'm having a real hard time understanding. These are the types of decisions (more by the community in NYC) that are just mind blowing to me.
Oh, and Phoenix (I'm in Tucson) is hosting a gigantic soccer tourny with 500 teams. I was a soccer parent for 15 years. I get how important that is for kids. But it's also HUGE money to local economies. This is more about the coaches, directors (who get paid up to six figures) and local communities to get a huge influx of needed cash. But it's also one of those things you say, well, this isn't going to go well.
This is so sad to me. God is everywhere isn't he? Well he is to me so I can't understand the maskless spreading of this with large numbers of people involved. I wish they'd stop. I'm busting to go to Israel. Guess it's the same there as NY??? I hope not.2 -
Just turned on the TV and the NY Macy's Thanksgiving day parade is on. Only saw one float before going to ad and writing this. But, for that float with handlers walking shoulder to shoulder and only a few feet apart, no one had on a mask. How is this permitted? Don't say testing, because in any other situation, testing would not be deemed adaquate. So tired of the do as I say........5
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Just turned on the TV and the NY Macy's Thanksgiving day parade is on. Only saw one float before going to ad and writing this. But, for that float with handlers walking shoulder to shoulder and only a few feet apart, no one had on a mask. How is this permitted? Don't say testing, because in any other situation, testing would not be deemed adaquate. So tired of the do as I say........
No different to the Christmas tree delivery to you know where. Masks off. Pics are UBER important more than lives apparently. Got to get in the fake smiles.4 -
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. I’ve been thankful for this thread, for a chance to hear what is going on in different areas of the country and the world from sources “on the ground”.
A week or so ago I posted that it felt like Covid was circling us, getting ever closer. Just got a call yesterday that my MIL and my SIL’s boyfriend tested positive. FIL was negative, but probably too early to tell (SIL had Covid a few months ago). My oldest was with them the first weekend of Nov and husband was planning on taking him back last weekend to hunt. A late soccer game and a rainy Sunday morning stopped that. This was their year for Thanksgiving with us, and if my husband hadn’t been on call we would have already been at their house (and exposed) yesterday afternoon. Very thankful through random events we dodged that exposure. Hoping they continue to have mild cases. They live in a rural town (biggest in the county at about 8,000), so for it to be circulating so freely there seems crazy (over the summer their county had 8 cases total).18 -
snowflake954 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »hobbitses333 wrote: »Disagree with me all you want, still does not change the fact that well over 10000 deaths were elders and only about 170 are general population. I have proved my claim.
You have argued for arguments sake with anectdotal stories, not facts. Weak.
In many hospitals it it the protocols making the staff work harder not the actual illness.
My stats are confirmed by health Canada. Wondering where are you are getting your info from?
Its not conspiracy theorist, all those are no longer theories. It's now BS analyzer. And you are eating it up.. There is something wrong and if you don't see it... I wish you good luck!
I'm sorry, I must have missed your link proving that hospitals are empty. Interesting that policies have us working so hard when we have no patients.
I guess all your patients are imaginary---there's a conspiracy....shhh..... We are in it too, here in Italy they're begging doctors that are retired to come back and help out with all the imaginary patients. Very few have answered the call, you see, so many of our medical staff are dead (pictures of them were posted, it took pages of the newspaper). I don't know why retired docs would refuse to go and get paid for doing nothing at a hospital that's empty? Makes you wonder.
Oh.. massive hugs. This is just so terrible honestly. How the F can't people see it's real??? Guess when they get it or lose family they'll notice. This is no joke.
That’s exactly what happened with my husband’s boss. His athlete college son and his roommate got it. His mother in law and, his wife’s mother got it. Now he believes. So darn sad. There’ll be a lot of folks joining the believers after Thanksgiving 🥲7 -
missysippy930 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »hobbitses333 wrote: »Disagree with me all you want, still does not change the fact that well over 10000 deaths were elders and only about 170 are general population. I have proved my claim.
You have argued for arguments sake with anectdotal stories, not facts. Weak.
In many hospitals it it the protocols making the staff work harder not the actual illness.
My stats are confirmed by health Canada. Wondering where are you are getting your info from?
Its not conspiracy theorist, all those are no longer theories. It's now BS analyzer. And you are eating it up.. There is something wrong and if you don't see it... I wish you good luck!
I'm sorry, I must have missed your link proving that hospitals are empty. Interesting that policies have us working so hard when we have no patients.
I guess all your patients are imaginary---there's a conspiracy....shhh..... We are in it too, here in Italy they're begging doctors that are retired to come back and help out with all the imaginary patients. Very few have answered the call, you see, so many of our medical staff are dead (pictures of them were posted, it took pages of the newspaper). I don't know why retired docs would refuse to go and get paid for doing nothing at a hospital that's empty? Makes you wonder.
Oh.. massive hugs. This is just so terrible honestly. How the F can't people see it's real??? Guess when they get it or lose family they'll notice. This is no joke.
That’s exactly what happened with my husband’s boss. His athlete college son and his roommate got it. His mother in law and, his wife’s mother got it. Now he believes. So darn sad. There’ll be a lot of folks joining the believers after Thanksgiving 🥲
Very sad people that won't listen have to learn the hard way. I just can't even imagine how it'll be after thanksgiving. Please people think twice about what you are doing to spread it. Doesn't take much.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »The other one was SCOTUS ruling in a 5-4 decision that NY State could not limit the number of people gathering in churches.
Just to clarify a bit, this blocks the NY executive order temporarily, as the case works its way up to the 2nd Cir and likely the SC again. And the issue is lack of neutrality: "The court explained that Cuomo’s order does not appear to be neutral, but instead “singles out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment.” For example, although a synagogue or a church in a red zone is limited to 10 people at a service, there are no limits on how many people a nearby “essential” business – which can include acupuncture or a camp ground – can admit."
It also suggests less restrictive rules, like a number based on the size of the church/synagogue building, would be okay.
That means the issues with the EO from the SC's perspective seem to be fixable, if Cuomo wants to fix it.
Good analysis, from which I took the quote: https://www.scotusblog.com/2020/11/justices-lift-new-yorks-covid-related-attendance-limits-on-worship-services/#more-297905
That is good to know. Perhaps he could come up with guidelines for capacity limits based on building size and setup. Or just keep it simple and require masks and 6 ft. of distance for those not in the same household. Then each house of worship would need to figure out how to space seating appropriately to comply.4 -
Just turned on the TV and the NY Macy's Thanksgiving day parade is on. Only saw one float before going to ad and writing this. But, for that float with handlers walking shoulder to shoulder and only a few feet apart, no one had on a mask. How is this permitted? Don't say testing, because in any other situation, testing would not be deemed adaquate. So tired of the do as I say........
From what I understand... there are no handlers this year... all the floats are being driven by one person in a car. No one is there in a crowd at all.
ETA- https://www.macys.com/social/parade/2 -
gradchica27 wrote: »Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. I’ve been thankful for this thread, for a chance to hear what is going on in different areas of the country and the world from sources “on the ground”.
A week or so ago I posted that it felt like Covid was circling us, getting ever closer. Just got a call yesterday that my MIL and my SIL’s boyfriend tested positive. FIL was negative, but probably too early to tell (SIL had Covid a few months ago). My oldest was with them the first weekend of Nov and husband was planning on taking him back last weekend to hunt. A late soccer game and a rainy Sunday morning stopped that. This was their year for Thanksgiving with us, and if my husband hadn’t been on call we would have already been at their house (and exposed) yesterday afternoon. Very thankful through random events we dodged that exposure. Hoping they continue to have mild cases. They live in a rural town (biggest in the county at about 8,000), so for it to be circulating so freely there seems crazy (over the summer their county had 8 cases total).
This is why we stayed home for the holidays.6 -
Just turned on the TV and the NY Macy's Thanksgiving day parade is on. Only saw one float before going to ad and writing this. But, for that float with handlers walking shoulder to shoulder and only a few feet apart, no one had on a mask. How is this permitted? Don't say testing, because in any other situation, testing would not be deemed adaquate. So tired of the do as I say........
My understanding is the parade only walked down that one block outside of Macy's for the tv cameras. And test/quarantine/test is what has been used this whole time for entertainment and sporting events. A short time outside unmasked if testing and quarantine protocols were followed would be relatively low risk I think. But I didn't watch it so I'm not sure.
Im not at all criticizing your frustration, theres so much frustrating hypocrisy out there around this and it's hard to stomach when you are giving stuff up and constantly seeing people who don't have to.
It seems like a decision has been made to take small risks and use valuable resources to provide entertainment to people through this. On the surface they say it's to help things seem normal and give us something to enjoy while we stay home, but I assume it's just about the money. I admit I've been a little hypocritical myself, because I don't think it's a good use of tests and other resources and I think it sets a bad example, but I've been watching all of it anyway
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