Coronavirus prep

kimny72 wrote: »

I'm totally comfortable treating the unvaxxed like walking petri dishes, I don't think it's dishonest at all (I mean the main reason I get a flu shot is because my nephews are adorable little petri dishes) but I get where you're coming from. And like you, I'm looking forward to getting my booster. Even if it doesn't stop me from being contagious, I'm happy to expect it will at least greatly limit it.

At this point I treat everyone like walking petri dishes. I just treat the vaxxed walking petri dishes as friends - from six feet away if unmasked. And the unvaxxed (unless they’re medically unable) like toxic waste covered walking petri dishes.
🤷🏼‍♀️

Theo166 wrote: »

HawkingRadiation wrote: »

Muscleflex79 wrote: »

Theo166 wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/579068-vaccinated-just-as-likely-to-spread-delta-variant-as-unvaccinated-study

Scientific reports like this is not helping convince those in opposition to the vaccine for one reason or another.

Our leaders have consistently messed up with their COVID messaging.

The Vaxx reduces your risk of hospitalization and death, which also frees up our ICU capacity.
This is a powerful enough message by itself, without the prior pretending it makes you immune/bulletproof.

I think the problem that a lot of people have now is more with the vaccine passport than the vaccine itself.

Here in Ontario you can not dine indoors, watch your kid play hockey, go to a wedding, funeral or go to the gym, etc. without showing your papers. Since the vaccine is not stopping transmission (but certainly helping reduce the chance of hospitalization and death), this does not make sense to a lot of people. Even more so that people have offered to show a negative covid test to do the above - but that is not accepted - papers only.

(I'm double vaccinated by the way - but do have questions about the logic of this system).

Because the other thing the vaccine dies is greatly reduce the chance of transmission. We want this thing to end, don’t we? We need to get everyone vacc’d, and if that means heavy pressure, so be it.

I read a case of a woman who refused to get vacc’d, was loudly against it, til she got the chance to go to a Justin Bieber concert. (Vacc only) She got vacc’d

I don't think that's correct, if it was we wouldn't have seen the spike in recent months with the majority of citizens already vaccinated. The numbers are higher than before the vaccine was available and my state was leading on getting vaxxed (WA).

I'm fine with some pressure on people getting vaxxed, but we had that covered with employment mandates and school mandates. Treating the unvaxxed like they have leprosy is dishonest, and it misleads the vaxxed on their risks.

Anecdotally, I watch a reddit sub on covidpos, so many stories of vaxxed getting it from other vaxxed people.

Full disclosure, I need to schedule my booster since they offered it to me. I'm very pro vaxx.

People are more likely to talk about things that are unusual, unexpected, cause emotional reactions, have physical consequences. "Vaxxed getting it from other vaxxed" ticks all those boxes.

That's why stories, *especially* volunteered ones (vs. structured surveys), make for very poor evidence.

HawkingRadiation wrote: »

Theo166 wrote: »

HawkingRadiation wrote: »

Muscleflex79 wrote: »

Theo166 wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/579068-vaccinated-just-as-likely-to-spread-delta-variant-as-unvaccinated-study

Scientific reports like this is not helping convince those in opposition to the vaccine for one reason or another.

Our leaders have consistently messed up with their COVID messaging.

The Vaxx reduces your risk of hospitalization and death, which also frees up our ICU capacity.
This is a powerful enough message by itself, without the prior pretending it makes you immune/bulletproof.

I think the problem that a lot of people have now is more with the vaccine passport than the vaccine itself.

Here in Ontario you can not dine indoors, watch your kid play hockey, go to a wedding, funeral or go to the gym, etc. without showing your papers. Since the vaccine is not stopping transmission (but certainly helping reduce the chance of hospitalization and death), this does not make sense to a lot of people. Even more so that people have offered to show a negative covid test to do the above - but that is not accepted - papers only.

(I'm double vaccinated by the way - but do have questions about the logic of this system).

Because the other thing the vaccine dies is greatly reduce the chance of transmission. We want this thing to end, don’t we? We need to get everyone vacc’d, and if that means heavy pressure, so be it.

I read a case of a woman who refused to get vacc’d, was loudly against it, til she got the chance to go to a Justin Bieber concert. (Vacc only) She got vacc’d

I don't think that's correct, if it was we wouldn't have seen the spike in recent months with the majority of citizens already vaccinated. The numbers are higher than before the vaccine was available and my state was leading on getting vaxxed (WA).

I'm fine with some pressure on people getting vaxxed, but we had that covered with employment mandates and school mandates. Treating the unvaxxed like they have leprosy is dishonest, and it misleads the vaxxed on their risks.

Anecdotally, I watch a reddit sub on covidpos, so many stories of vaxxed getting it from other vaxxed people.

Full disclosure, I need to schedule my booster since they offered it to me. I'm very pro vaxx.

The CDC says: (front page website)
"The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed."

The delta variant is responsible for the recent spike in numbers. Unvaccinated people are spreading it and some vaccinated probably due to the waning effect of the vaccination shots. Yes, we all need boosters. We may need annual or semi-annual boosters. I'm ok with that.

Darned stupid ol' CDC, relying on studies as the best evidence, presenting opinions of highly educated/experienced scientists (with clear caveats) if they don't have sufficient good studies yet.

They could just use social media stories from Joe and Jane storytellers with time on their hands.

Theo166 wrote: »

kimny72 wrote: »

Any virologist I've listened to has said it seems that being vaxxed does make a person less contagious and they believe most spread comes from the unvaxxed. Even in states doing very well On vaccinations, none have reached the percentages they think are necessary for herd immunity. The virus also doesn't recognize state lines.

Of course all of this is presumptive and educated guesses by the pros. Maybe in the end we'll find out they were wrong. But considering the millions of people out there and the relaxing mitigation efforts, I'd think everyone would be testing positive right now if vaxxing wasn't at least minimizing spread.

I'm totally comfortable treating the unvaxxed like walking petri dishes, I don't think it's dishonest at all (I mean the main reason I get a flu shot is because my nephews are adorable little petri dishes) but I get where you're coming from. And like you, I'm looking forward to getting my booster. Even if it doesn't stop me from being contagious, I'm happy to expect it will at least greatly limit it.

Both can be true.

• The vaxx makes you less sick and quicker recover, so you you less contagious
• The vaxx makes you more confident, and you reduce social distancing and engage in more risky behaviors (no mask socializing), so you are more contagious.

Well that's kind of moving the goal posts, it's not how one typically defines contagious. You don't say John isn't contagious anymore because he's staying home, but Jim decided to go to work so he's still contagious. We say someone is contagious if they could give you what they have if you have contact with them.

If a covid positive person who's vaxxed sneezes on me, I'm less likely to get covid from them than from an unvaxxed person, so they are less contagious.

Anyway, from what I've seen at least, unvaxxed people aren't masking and distancing while vaxxed people don't, so I don't see how adding in the variable of behavior would lead to the conclusion that vaccination isn't stopping spread and so unvaxxed people shouldn't be excluded from stuff.

I spoke with a former daycare mom last night. It's always eye-opening to hear how all this is affecting young families. She has 2 children in school and it sounds like they've been in school as much as out of school this year, due to possible exposures, signs of colds so waiting for test results, etc., etc. It's got to be a crazy way to live now. She's very diligent so is going above and beyond I'm sure. She has all my respect as a parent. Her dh(they're not together) has tested positive because he currently works at a nursing home which has many cases of Covid. He was showing signs so got himself tested(evidently they get tested every day). It's such a trickle-down event. Who knows how many staff are positive and now have to isolate? How do they handle being short-staffed in a nursing home? It's not like they can close, like a restaurant, for a couple weeks.

Our state is pretty rural, small population comparatively, and it's always been good as far as positive cases/deaths. But that's all been creeping up. Vaccination rates are high, as well. So, I'm not understanding the whys of this whole thing.

Theo166 wrote: »

I'm just talking about the real world, and in my area the vaxxed act like their are bulletproof. Only vaxxed people are allowed to go to events, bars or restaurants. Places where they are mingling unmasked..

Since unvaxxed can't even enter a bar or restaurant, they are stuck at home. They are also required to wear a mask when they go shopping, so all around they are low risk of transmission outside of their home. Protesters are rare and not normal activity.

That's very different from what's going on here (I'm in Michigan, USA), so these kinds of differences may help to explain differences in attitudes toward the unvaccinated, and the sense of whether the behavior of vaccinated people is a relatively meaningful reason that the virus is continuing to spread.

Outside of a small percentage of contexts, masks are not required, though they may be required by some businesses or schools, etc. Some large employers are requiring vaccination as a condition of employment (or a legally valid waiver). Very few public contexts require vaccinations or tests - bars, restaurants, most events are open to all. There's a lot of unmasked mingling.

Obviously, I have no way to know who among the general mingling public is vaccinated, but among people I know well, those refusing the vaccine also consider masking an imposition, and were among the first to remove masks in any context where that would be allowed (even if the signage asked people who were unvaccinated to wear masks - though it's more common locally for business and such to either ask people to mask, or not ask that, without reference to vaccination status).

Among people I know well, the vaccinated folks generally are more likely to be continuing to wear masks in public places with lots of other people (like in stores) even if not required or requests posted. Most vaccinated people among my friends (who do skew older) continue to limit what kinds of public things they're willing to participate in, from shopping to movies/concerts to restaurants.

Most of the people hospitalized here are unvaccinated, by far. Most reports suggest something in the 90s percents. There's IMU little local data about the sources of spread (vaccinated vs. unvaccinated people). For people like me, whose immediate circle of acquaintances has the unvaccinated quick to whip off their masks and return to their normal social lifestyle, and vaccinated folks more cautious, it's very tempting to blame continuing spread primarily on the unvaccinated.

I'm aware that my immediate circle of acquaintances is not a statistically random sample, so I try not to jump to conclusions . . . but like I said, it's tempting.

Saliva covid testing is being trialed in school children in Hampshire and the Isle of White, England. Its happening under the control of one of the Southampton Universities and the Regional hospital. The youngsters put saliva into a sample pot and return it to school who send it on to the lab. If this proves accurate as those tests we have, I hope it could be rolled out because its far more easy to use than the present swabs, particularly in children.

GaleHawkins wrote: »

snowflake954 wrote: »

On Italian News this morning--areas with No-Vax demonstrations are seeing a spike in COVID cases and hospitalizations. A northern town, Trieste, which had weekly demonstrations (they have an important port and workers are No-Vax, but people of like persuasion travelled there from all over the country to protest) has forbidden any more protesting until Jan 1st. Their hospitals are now full.

Sorry to read after nearly 2 years Covid is still a hot problem in Italy. The article below indicates no COVID-19 end is sight in my view.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/cdc-very-high-risk-travel-destinations-november-1/index.html

Yup. My family wants me to come home to Minnesota. My mother is 92 and wants to see me, but I'm not moving right now even though I'm vaxed. Things change too fast.

Muscleflex79 wrote: »

HawkingRadiation wrote: »

Muscleflex79 wrote: »

Theo166 wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/579068-vaccinated-just-as-likely-to-spread-delta-variant-as-unvaccinated-study

Scientific reports like this is not helping convince those in opposition to the vaccine for one reason or another.

Our leaders have consistently messed up with their COVID messaging.

The Vaxx reduces your risk of hospitalization and death, which also frees up our ICU capacity.
This is a powerful enough message by itself, without the prior pretending it makes you immune/bulletproof.

I think the problem that a lot of people have now is more with the vaccine passport than the vaccine itself.

Here in Ontario you can not dine indoors, watch your kid play hockey, go to a wedding, funeral or go to the gym, etc. without showing your papers. Since the vaccine is not stopping transmission (but certainly helping reduce the chance of hospitalization and death), this does not make sense to a lot of people. Even more so that people have offered to show a negative covid test to do the above - but that is not accepted - papers only.

(I'm double vaccinated by the way - but do have questions about the logic of this system).

Because the other thing the vaccine dies is greatly reduce the chance of transmission. We want this thing to end, don’t we? We need to get everyone vacc’d, and if that means heavy pressure, so be it.

I read a case of a woman who refused to get vacc’d, was loudly against it, til she got the chance to go to a Justin Bieber concert. (Vacc only) She got vacc’d

right - but if someone is willing to show a negative test that shows that they do not have covid as of that time - should that not be as good (if not better?) than someone who is vaccinated, but could be carrying the virus?

I think part of the reason for this is public vs individual health - so yes they can't pass it on for that particular event when they are negative, but if they are exposed at that event (perhaps by an asymptomatic vaxx'd person) then they have a higher chance of becoming ill and spreading it around and/or needing health care resources.

Theo166 wrote: »

I'm just talking about the real world, and in my area the vaxxed act like their are bulletproof. Only vaxxed people are allowed to go to events, bars or restaurants. Places where they are mingling unmasked..

Since unvaxxed can't even enter a bar or restaurant, they are stuck at home. They are also required to wear a mask when they go shopping, so all around they are low risk of transmission outside of their home. Protesters are rare and not normal activity.

The unvaxxed where I live also go to stores, restaurants, etc. without masks. Walmart is now just recommending unvaccinated customers wear masks. But for the brief time it was a rule, unvaxxed customers still didn't wear a mask. Then again, when Walmart required masks for everyone, people still didn't wear it and nobody enforced the policy anyway.

yes in large public places like supermarkets, sports arenas - I agree the only workable policy is everyone masked. (as it is where I live)

But I can see a case for people being unmasked in smaller controlled settings such as their work place if they have documented evidence of being fully vaccinated.

SModa61 wrote: »

Question for you all.

So now Pfizer is approved for the 5 - 11 year olds and if I heard/understood correctly, the dosage is reduced (I think a 5th). Now, thinking back to when the vaccines were first released, I swear that I remember discussions on dosage vs the physical characteristics of the recipient. Was it not stated at that time that vaccinations (or at least these vaccinations) did "not work that way" and dosage did not matter whether the individual was 100 lbs or 300 lbs. I have to assume that the current policy of customized dosage is more accurate, but does this not lead us to question if the one-size-fits-all standard for adults might not be adaquate.

What am I missing?

I can't answer specifically, but children aren't just little adults, there are other variables to be considered.

I don't remember seeing anything out there regarding dosage based on size. Considering the vaccine is just posing as a virus to teach your immune system how to fight it, and I've never heard that bigger people are more or less likely to get sick from viruses because it would take a larger amount of the virus in their system to get an immune response, it doesn't seem to me it would matter. Though of course I'm not a doctor

I know they discussed at some point on TWIV that in an effort to get the vaccines out as quickly as was safely possible, they tested to make sure the dosage was "enough" but it was possible that over time we'd find out that you could get away with less. Not sure if that's related or not.

ETA: TWIV has gotten questions asking if a child is 11, should they get the child's dose or wait for their 12th b-day to get the teen dose. They did say that's a question for your pediatrician, if the child is healthy and developing "normally" it probably is something not worth worrying about, just get whichever one is available.

SModa61 wrote: »

Question for you all.

So now Pfizer is approved for the 5 - 11 year olds and if I heard/understood correctly, the dosage is reduced (I think a 5th). Now, thinking back to when the vaccines were first released, I swear that I remember discussions on dosage vs the physical characteristics of the recipient. Was it not stated at that time that vaccinations (or at least these vaccinations) did "not work that way" and dosage did not matter whether the individual was 100 lbs or 300 lbs. I have to assume that the current policy of customized dosage is more accurate, but does this not lead us to question if the one-size-fits-all standard for adults might not be adaquate.

What am I missing?

It's not customized. All kids 5-11 get the same dose (my understanding that it's 1/3 the adult/teen dose). What I have heard is that it's about differences in children's immune system functions from adults, not about size.

@SModa61 ! After posting I decided to listen to TWIV while I worked and Mondays epi was a Q&A with Dr Daniel Griffith and he talked about this

He said there is an age based development process for the immune system which leads to the dosing differences. A woman said her son is 4 and 1/2 and big for his age so can he get the 5-11 shot early, and he said no, she should wait.