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Unwanted advice at gym
Replies
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Cahgetsfit wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.
Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.
Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.
Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.
Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".
Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.
Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.
Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>
ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.
totally unrelated, but once many moons ago when I was trying oral contraceptives and none were working with me, my Dr prescribed one with a high testosterone level.
I punched my then boyfriend in the face because he was annoying me while I was trying to watch Beverly Hills 90210.
It felt good, I did not regret it.
I am not a violent person.
I stopped taking that pill pretty much straight after I clocked him in the face. *kitten* it felt good tho.
EDIT: another hormone-related anecdote from my personal experience too. Whilst taking a particular PED, towards the end of the cycle I was a walking around akin to a male with a permanent woody. I felt ready for "action" 24/7. My husband was a very happy man for a couple of weeks. Normally I am more like Elsa.
Not cool14 -
Cahgetsfit wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.
Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.
Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.
Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.
Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".
Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.
Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.
Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>
ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.
totally unrelated, but once many moons ago when I was trying oral contraceptives and none were working with me, my Dr prescribed one with a high testosterone level.
I punched my then boyfriend in the face because he was annoying me while I was trying to watch Beverly Hills 90210.
It felt good, I did not regret it.
I am not a violent person.
I stopped taking that pill pretty much straight after I clocked him in the face. *kitten* it felt good tho.
EDIT: another hormone-related anecdote from my personal experience too. Whilst taking a particular PED, towards the end of the cycle I was a walking around akin to a male with a permanent woody. I felt ready for "action" 24/7. My husband was a very happy man for a couple of weeks. Normally I am more like Elsa.
The sexual arousal all. the. time. is very normal and goes away with time. Thankfully. The aggression isn't typical. Never mind a lot of what people have been talking about, with regards to cis-gender men has a lot to do with how boys are socialized.10 -
It's completely and utterly different than joggers and cyclists being advised to wear neon and have lights when it's dark. That's an issue of a driver being physically able to see a runner or cyclist in time to not hit them. It's about the ability to see someone and have enough time to slow down and/or move over.Cherimoose wrote: »It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?
Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.
You're taking the analogy too literally. It's simply an example where the other party can be at fault, yet you still have some control over the outcome.
Another example - people often wear headphones at the gym to deter chatterboxes (of any gender) from talking to them and slowing their workous. Yes, chatterboxes should control themselves, and yes, people shouldn't have to wear headphones to avoid them.. but griping about how things "should" be and who's to blame is not an actionable solution that will make your next workout better. Headphones are. Likewise, wearing low-key clothes is likely to reduce how many guys talk to you at your next workout compared to wearing neon pink booty shorts with "Juicy" on the back. At least from what i've seen at gyms.2 -
Cherimoose wrote: »
It's completely and utterly different than joggers and cyclists being advised to wear neon and have lights when it's dark. That's an issue of a driver being physically able to see a runner or cyclist in time to not hit them. It's about the ability to see someone and have enough time to slow down and/or move over.Cherimoose wrote: »It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?
Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.
You're taking the analogy too literally. It's simply an example where the other party can be at fault, yet you still have some control over the outcome.
No, I'm really not taking it to seriously. What someone is wearing isn't an invitation to get hit on, harassed, or raped. It is not consent. It also doesn't prevent any of those things. Sexual harassment in all forms is about power, not about what someone is wearing. That you don't want to understand or grapple with that is a symptom of a wider societal issue.
That you think that somehow it makes sense to compare sexual harassment with someone getting accidently hit by a driver is disappointing but not shocking.25 -
MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Not to mention that doesn't actually work.13 -
Cherimoose wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?
Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.
Wow.
So what's your argument for women who get "approached," assaulted, even raped wearing anything low-key t-shirts and shorts to low-key baggy sweats? And over-the-ear headphones just make you more vulnerable.8 -
psychod787 wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.
Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.
Just a warning. If you get called in by HR, saying "it's hard-wired in our brain and she was dressed in a certain way" isn't going to cut it.14 -
rheddmobile wrote: »OP, I think you handled it beautifully. When I read the comment my advice was going to be, “Thanks, I already have a trainer and it’s not you,” and that’s pretty much what you said.
Also, for the rest of the people discussing gym attire - the OP in my opinion would be beautiful in a burlap sack wearing a facial mask. The only way for her to avoid attracting attention would be to stay home, and I sure hope none of you are suggesting that. Also, if you are a man and your man brain insists that you flirt with attractive women you don’t know at all because reasons, the least you can do is not be patronizing about it.
A large percentage of the time it is about power and control, not about whether the woman is beautiful (which if it were, by the way, would only justify forcing women to wear head-coverings in public if they didn't want to be blamed, based on your ceding of the ground on clothing by implying -- although I'm certainly more than willing to believe you didn't realize you were doing it -- that it would be different if a woman weren't so beautiful that she wouldn't shine in a burlap sack).3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.
I don't see it as victim blaming but as risk mitigation.
Cars were broken into at a dog park I used to attend and staff put up signs saying to make sure cars were locked and valuables not in sight. This is not victim blaming - it's tips for reducing the risk of an unpleasant event.
Should thieves break into cars? No.
Should car owners make it less attractive for thieves? Yes.
No. Women are not cars. And there's always another excuse to be made about how a woman's dress, behavior, location, lack of a companion, etc., etc., made her a target. Down this path lies confining women to their homes.16 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.
Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.
Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.
Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.
Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".
Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.
Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.
Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>
ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.
So there are a lot of things going on here including the spreading of misinformation. Additionally, the people you were working with were not women, they were men (given that you said they were "going from female to male". If you want more information on the effect of testosterone on transmen here are some links:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30999214
not spreading scaring, in fact I fully support anyone being who they want to be. Male, female, straight, gay, pan. whatever, but when you have worked with people for a while and then they are given hormones that change them and now you notice tendencies to be more aggressive. How is that scare tactics? Its simply an N=1 observation. yes, one of the things I grew up with were transgender was a choice. I no longer believe that. I think that people are born a certain way. The "decision" is not a "decision". They are physically female, but in the brain. I mean the actual brain they are male. I actually had the fortitude to talk to several of the gentleman about what it was like growing up. They told me that from a young age they felt different than what they were being told. They felt ashamed they were attracted to women, wanted to wear mens cloths...ect. The area I am in is in the "bible" belt. So, when I say I got their life story I did. Because, I was curious about how things worked. One of them was nice enough to show me some research on the brains of SOME transgenders actually look more Male than female.
I'm guessing the term for this is transplaining.4 -
Cherimoose wrote: »
It's completely and utterly different than joggers and cyclists being advised to wear neon and have lights when it's dark. That's an issue of a driver being physically able to see a runner or cyclist in time to not hit them. It's about the ability to see someone and have enough time to slow down and/or move over.Cherimoose wrote: »It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?
Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.
You're taking the analogy too literally. It's simply an example where the other party can be at fault, yet you still have some control over the outcome.
No, I'm really not taking it to seriously. What someone is wearing isn't an invitation to get hit on, harassed, or raped. It is not consent. It also doesn't prevent any of those things. Sexual harassment in all forms is about power, not about what someone is wearing. That you don't want to understand or grapple with that is a symptom of a wider societal issue.
That you think that somehow it makes sense to compare sexual harassment with someone getting accidently hit by a driver is disappointing but not shocking.
Great post, and especially the point made in the last paragraph.7 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.
Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.
Wild and uncontrollable hormone-fed thought? OK, whatever.
Rude behavior? Unempathetic? Continued after clear "no"? That's on the perpetrator. No matter how the victim dressed.
Controlling inappropriate impulses is part of the definition of "sane adult".
Not hormone fed directly. More of differences in the brain and millions of years of evolution. There is some evidence that high amounts of testosterone while a baby is in the uterus does affect the way the brain is formed. As I mentioned, we have the ability as humans to NOT follow our impulses. Though, what we do has to be looked at in context. We humans do certain things subconsciously. Oh I don't blame the person getting bothered at all for the annoyance. The NO should have been enough to tell him or her to get lost. Though all I was stating WAS sometimes we dress a certain way or whatever for reasons we think we understand, but somethings are hardwired to do things. Human woman don't go into heat like many other species do. So, back in the pre cave days, how was a male of our species supposed to know if she was receptive? Subtle ques. Unfortunately in a time when this is no longer needed, they still exist. Maybe IF the human species makes it another million years these things will be bred out.
Y'all can control behavior. Choose to.
Do you think we don't have hormones and impulses? <snort>
ohh ms. ann. I worked with 90% women for YEARS and can tell you y'all can be just as bad as any man. I've seen it from both directions. I have also had the privilege of dealing with several women going through a transgender procedure. Going from female to male. When some of them are given the hormone therapy, they can become quite aggressive in all things.
So there are a lot of things going on here including the spreading of misinformation. Additionally, the people you were working with were not women, they were men (given that you said they were "going from female to male". If you want more information on the effect of testosterone on transmen here are some links:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30999214
not spreading scaring, in fact I fully support anyone being who they want to be. Male, female, straight, gay, pan. whatever, but when you have worked with people for a while and then they are given hormones that change them and now you notice tendencies to be more aggressive. How is that scare tactics? Its simply an N=1 observation. yes, one of the things I grew up with were transgender was a choice. I no longer believe that. I think that people are born a certain way. The "decision" is not a "decision". They are physically female, but in the brain. I mean the actual brain they are male. I actually had the fortitude to talk to several of the gentleman about what it was like growing up. They told me that from a young age they felt different than what they were being told. They felt ashamed they were attracted to women, wanted to wear mens cloths...ect. The area I am in is in the "bible" belt. So, when I say I got their life story I did. Because, I was curious about how things worked. One of them was nice enough to show me some research on the brains of SOME transgenders actually look more Male than female.
I'm guessing the term for this is transplaining.
Indeed it is.4 -
Well as a guy...it sounds like he was trying to break the ice so he can be your spotter haha. Just ignore them. Literally. Keep squatting or jamming out to music. Those hurt the worst lol.
OK, as a guy, maybe you have a good explanation of why after being told she had a trainer and didn't need his advice, he stuck around, continued the conversation, and told her she looked like she was p****d with him after he apologized. He wasn't taking no for an answer.8 -
MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.2 -
This thread has become unbelievably fascinating!
There are so many different people I want to quote or refer to but this post would get out of hand.
I totally agree about the back-handed flip side of assuming that No Makeup = Ugly. I actually spend 90% of my time bare faced. Even at work. I have nice skin, nice features, and I like my bare face, so most of the time I just don’t bother. It doesn’t stop me from getting hit on all the time.
A person’s (in this case read “man’s” actions are THEIR responsibility. Mitigation?? Let’s talk about “mitigation”.
Tonight I took the bus to work. ZERO MAKEUP, wearing a zip up hoodie. A guy saw me on the bus, got off at my stop (way before his) was walking behind me and eventually caught up to me and tapped me on the arm because I wasn’t responding. My wireless headphones were hidden under my hair.
So he was trying to get my attention and even though I didn’t respond it DIDNT STOP HIM. Thankfully he turned out to be really polite in the end. He had seen me before and decided to take a chance. But his actions had NOTHING to do with me.
I hadn’t looked at him. I hadn’t smiled at him. I didn’t even know he existed until he came up behind me and physically touched me. Now I saw a shadow behind mine on the ground so I knew someone was close, but in a way those “don’t talk to me” headphones can make it easier for a man to sneak up on you.
So let’s go over the checklist.
- Runners
- Looser fitting hoodie
- ZERO makeup
- ZERO eye contact
- Resting b**tch face cause I’m just minding my own business.
- ZERO response when he tried to get my attention verbally
- Headphones in.
None of these things stopped him from talking to me and asking me for my number.
28 -
MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
24 -
Wow. I never expected this thread would get so many comments! Really interesting to see how many different topics were brought up. At the time I didn't think this guy was flirting with me just because of how rude he was, I've never been flirted with like that. But thanks to this thread I now know what negging is lol it makes sense now. I know I have good form and I can handle the weight but for a second I was doubting myself.
Oh and btw not that it matters but on this paticular day I wasn't dressed 'sexy'. I had a baggy long shirt and gym leggings, hair thrown up and no make up on. However, I often do wear tighter clothes or crop tops to the gym depending on how I'm feeling. I don't work really hard on my body to cover myself up all the time incase men can't control themselves. Thats what seperates us from animals we can control our instincts.25 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Call me non-sociable, or whatever, but I really don't want to be talking to anyone at the gym, period. There is a big difference in being polite and saying hello, to giving advice or inquiring about someone else's workout. That annoys me to no end, and especially in this situation I would have probably told the guy to *kitten* off. I just want to get in there, do my work, and leave. People who do this are either making a very poor attempt at flirting, or are trying to feed their ego. I wish there was one gym we could ship all these people off to. That would be pretty entertaining actually, to see all these bro types critiquing each other and trying to determine who has the most perfect form. Thats reality tv I would watch.
Assuming from your photo/avatar you're male, if you told him to kitten off, he wouldn't have called you a b***h or a c**t, which is actually on the low end of what women have to be aware could happen if they tell a jerk offering unsolicited advice, compliments, or invitations "no".
Of course not, the guy would have called him a d**k or a##h#le. People tend to react if someone tells them to kitten off, regardless of sex.3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.
Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.
Just a warning. If you get called in by HR, saying "it's hard-wired in our brain and she was dressed in a certain way" isn't going to cut it.
Actually, in my working environment, 90% women... it's the other way around!2 -
Did you have headphones? They are a good way to focus and give off the impression you are trying to do your own thing.0
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